Re: [CTRL] This is not a Bible discussion list .
-Caveat Lector- Encoded in all Indo-European mythologies is an apocalyptic battle between opposing divine armies. In India (Mahabharata) and Rome (Sabine War), the battle is semi-euhemerized into legendary history. The Greek version pits the Olympians against the Titans; the Irish counterpart is the Second Battle of Mag Tuiredh (Moytura) between the Tuatha De Danaan and the Fomoire. Perhaps the most "apocalyptic" version, in the sense in which that term is used now, is the Norse Ragnarök, with the Æsir fighting against assorted jötunn (giants), traitors (Loki), and monsters (the Fenris wolf and the Midgard Serpent, both Loki's offspring), in a conflict that ushers in the destruction of the world by fire and ice and the birth of a new world with a new generation of gods. The clearest sense of conspiracy is found among the perennially paranoid Iranians, with their stark division of celestial beings into good and bad, white and black, light and darkness, truth and lie; the Zarathustran reform depersonalized many of the old Iranian deities, turned them into demons, and aligned them squarely with Ahriman, the prototype of the Christian "Devil" and archfoe of the champion of Light, Ormazd (Ahura-Mazda). One wonders just what might be found by a really thorough archaeological examination of the region around the Caspian Sea now believed to be the Indo-European homeland...or perhaps *under* the Caspian Sea... -Original Message- From: Das GOAT [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, November 20, 1999 9:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] This is not a Bible discussion list . -Caveat Lector- snip Important to keep in mind, however, that it is, as I say, only ONE of those hypotheses, and it should be taken for granted that it will NOT be accorded any "privileged" status alongside OTHER hypotheses, which, please note, may ALSO be of a "theological" or philosophical nature -- for example, Indo-Iranian Dualism (a major source for what later turned up in the Old Testament, according to scholars) and its offshoot, Gnosticism, (which played a major role in shaping several "orthodox" beliefs in early Christianity), or Western Pythagorean-Platonism and Neoplatonism (one basis for "Hermeticism") and its Eastern equivalent in Kabbalah -- or even the "mythologies" (more accurately "religions") of the Sumerians, non-Israelite Semites, Indo-Europeans -- who, by the way, ALSO refer to something like an Arch-Conspirator and a cosmic Coup d'Etat -- e.g., in the Greek story of Prometheus and in the Babylonian account of "Creation." snip DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] This is not the Bible discussion list. . .
Terry, I happen to agree that certain Biblical issues are clearly discussions of 'Conspiracy Theory' and are of Satan... but in this group, it has been clearly stated by the owner (who does not believe that satan even exists), and by others comments that they do not see Biblical discussions as anything to do with conspiracy theory. To force issues on others is inflammatory and often drives people away from further research on such topics. I will throw this out there for the fact of the matter that thereIS conspiracy discussed in the Bible and for anyone who is interested, theymay check it out for themselves... Satan conspired to tempt andaccomplished his deed in Genesis chapter 3, when he tempted Eve. Lucifer,one in the same personnage as Satan, conspired to take the place of God, - Isaiah 14:12-16 Conspiracy/ conspire / conspirators in the Bible is mentioned in the following passages: Genesis 37:18; 1 Samuel 22:8 13; 2 Samuel 15:12 31; 1 Kings 15:27; 1 Kings 16:9 16; 2 Kings 9: 14; 2 Kings 10:9 2 Kings 12: 20; 2 Kings 14:19; 2 Kings 15:10, 15, 25 30; 2 Kings 17:4; 2 Kings 21:23 24; 2 Chronicles 24: 21 25-26; 2 Chronicles 25:27; 2 Chronicles 33:24-25; Nehemiah 4:8; Jeremiah 11:9; Ezekiel 22:25; Amos 7:10; Acts 23:13; As well as in many other passages where it is clearly defined and implied. So anyone who would say that there is no conpiracy discussed in the Bible, simply has not read their Bible, or has not understood that the root evil discussed in the Bible is derived all from a conspiracy by one called Satan, who goes by many other names such as Lucifer, Angel of Light, Son of the Morning, Haylel, the Devil, Old Dragon, Red Dragon, the Serpent, the Beast, Beelzebub, etc. as well as many other names too numerous to mention here. eagle 1 - Original Message - From: Terry Cox To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] This is not the Bible discussion list. . . TenebrousT, What is your advice to me, who sees many conspiracies as headed by Satan?Are people like merightfully part of this group or not? I think there is a difference between stating the source of conspiracy theories and preaching religion and I think we follow that pretty well. I'd appreciate your clarification. Thanks. Terry - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 12:30 AM Subject: [CTRL] This is not the Bible discussion list. . . -Caveat Lector-Some people may find the links in this message of use, but let me say that Idon't want this list turned into a forum for Bible thumping and beliefbashing. Thus I will ask that we limit what we say and do in this regard tothe discussion of religion and its relation to Conspiracy Theory, rather thanApologetics, Hermeneutics, Theology, or other issues that have as their basisindividual belief and faith issues that should be left to each to decide forthemselves. The disclaimer in every post is explicit in this regard.Thank you for the links and thank you for heeding this advice.
Re: [CTRL] This is not the Bible discussion list. . .
Dear Eagle 1, I am very glad to see that you are obviously feeling much better now, which is confirmed by the sensible and good message you have posted to Terry and carbon copied to CTRL. Thank you for taking the time to calmly compose and send this well written message to Terry and the rest of us, via the CTRL list. I for one appreciate it, even if no-one else does; but I hope that everyone does. Peace be upon you, JAH. - Original Message - From: Eagle 1 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 20, 1999 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] This is not the Bible discussion list. . . Terry, I happen to agree that certain Biblical issues are clearly discussions of 'Conspiracy Theory' and are of Satan... but in this group, it has been clearly stated by the owner (who does not believe that satan even exists), and by others comments that they do not see Biblical discussions as anything to do with conspiracy theory. To force issues on others is inflammatory and often drives people away from further research on such topics. I will throw this out there for the fact of the matter that thereIS conspiracy discussed in the Bible and for anyone who is interested, theymay check it out for themselves... Satan conspired to tempt andaccomplished his deed in Genesis chapter 3, when he tempted Eve. Lucifer,one in the same personnage as Satan, conspired to take the place of God, - Isaiah 14:12-16 Conspiracy/ conspire / conspirators in the Bible is mentioned in the following passages: Genesis 37:18; 1 Samuel 22:8 13; 2 Samuel 15:12 31; 1 Kings 15:27; 1 Kings 16:9 16; 2 Kings 9: 14; 2 Kings 10:9 2 Kings 12: 20; 2 Kings 14:19; 2 Kings 15:10, 15, 25 30; 2 Kings 17:4; 2 Kings 21:23 24; 2 Chronicles 24: 21 25-26; 2 Chronicles 25:27; 2 Chronicles 33:24-25; Nehemiah 4:8; Jeremiah 11:9; Ezekiel 22:25; Amos 7:10; Acts 23:13; As well as in many other passages where it is clearly defined and implied. So anyone who would say that there is no conpiracy discussed in the Bible, simply has not read their Bible, or has not understood that the root evil discussed in the Bible is derived all from a conspiracy by one called Satan, who goes by many other names such as Lucifer, Angel of Light, Son of the Morning, Haylel, the Devil, Old Dragon, Red Dragon, the Serpent, the Beast, Beelzebub, etc. as well as many other names too numerous to mention here. eagle 1 - Original Message - From: Terry Cox To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] This is not the Bible discussion list. . . TenebrousT, What is your advice to me, who sees many conspiracies as headed by Satan?Are people like merightfully part of this group or not? I think there is a difference between stating the source of conspiracy theories and preaching religion and I think we follow that pretty well. I'd appreciate your clarification. Thanks. Terry - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 12:30 AM Subject: [CTRL] This is not the Bible discussion list. . . -Caveat Lector-Some people may find the links in this message of use, but let me say that Idon't want this list turned into a forum for Bible thumping and beliefbashing. Thus I will ask that we limit what we say and do in this regard tothe discussion of religion and its relation to Conspiracy Theory, rather thanApologetics, Hermeneutics, Theology, or other issues that have as their basisindividual belief and faith issues that should be left to each to decide forthemselves. The disclaimer in every post is explicit in this regard.Thank you for the links and thank you for heeding this advice.
Re: [CTRL] This is not a Bible discussion list .
-Caveat Lector-
Many thanks to DasGoat for jumping in here with some very cogent words on
this subject, and I will defer all comments along this topic to what he has
said below, and ask all who would discuss such topics to bear this in mind.
In a message dated 11/20/99 9:01:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
For Western Civilization as a semi-Christianized culture (the other main
influence is the Greco-Roman or "classical" tradition), "Satan" aka
"Lucifer"
is an ARCHETYPE of the Conspirator -- specifically, as the rebel leader of
an
actual (or attempted and ongoing) coup d'etat against the Divine Order.
The
Bible IMPLICITLY refers to that Conspiracy, using it to cosmically mirror
the
dualistic struggle in (Biblical) human history between God's Chosen People
and the "Sons of Belial" (Cainites, descendants of Ham, Egypt and the
Canaanites, etc), toward the ultimate goal of realizing, through man's
"free
will," either the "Kingdom of Heaven" or its opposite, on the earthly plane
-- i.e., as a social system and universal (global) State for the latest
addition to the Creation, humankind.
That perspective is so much a "given" among Jews and Christians --as well
as
among those not even especially religious but who are subconsciously
INFLUENCED by our cultural root-assumptions-- that, IMHO, it need NOT be
continuously and repetitively "proven" by citations from the Bible -- a
PUBLIC source-document ALREADY on our bookshelves! The main problem here
is,
in order to "prove" that the above-described Conspiracy is REAL, one FIRST
has to "prove" that the fundamental doctrinal beliefs or dogmas of
Christianity (and of Judaism, in its Old Testament form) are LIKEWISE
"real,"
because the validity of that Conspiracy Theory, especially in literalistic
terms, depends entirely on the validity ("truth") of its THEOLOGY.
So, any argument GOING BEYOND accepting the "Satanic" or "Luciferian"
Conspiracy codified in the Bible as just an ARCHETYPE --a "dramatized"
symbolic representation of something deeply rooted in human nature,
manifest
in history-- or, to accommodate even religious literalists, accepting it
as
a
HYPOTHESIS (in practice, "let's ASSUME, for the sake of argument, that this
is a feasible explanation , and now let's all TEST it skeptically, to see
how well it "fits" when faced with "outside," "contradictory" data"),
is inevitably doomed to become a polemical THEOLOGICAL argument, leaning
toward
PROSELYTIZING for a distinct "partisan" belief system (which, by its very
nature, can't avoid being ANTAGONISTIC toward expressions of NON-belief and
rational criticism) -- UNLESS great care is taken to AVOID us falling into,
or being pulled into, that trap.
If highly emotional debates on the validity of "truths" premised
fundamentally on "faith" ("truths" which do not brook the more noncommittal
rational critical analysis which is primary on this list) and overtly
partisan "proselytizing" can be avoided here, in a forum expressly designed
to be a "safe" place for discussions among subscribers who have MANY
DIFFERENT points of view and who may entertain DIVERGENT "hypotheses,"
then the "Satanic" or "Luciferian" Conspiracy Theory favored by Christians
and Jews
is WELCOME here, because it is, in fact, one of the major hypotheses in
this
area.
Important to keep in mind, however, that it is, as I say, only ONE of those
hypotheses,
and it should be taken for granted that it will NOT be accorded any
"privileged" status
alongside OTHER hypotheses, which, please note, may ALSO be of a
"theological" or
philosophical nature -- for example, Indo-Iranian Dualism (a major source
for
what later
turned up in the Old Testament, according to scholars) and its offshoot,
Gnosticism, (which played a major role in shaping several "orthodox"
beliefs
in early Christianity),
or Western Pythagorean-Platonism and Neoplatonism (one basis for
"Hermeticism")
and its Eastern equivalent in Kabbalah -- or even the "mythologies" (more
accurately "religions") of the Sumerians, non-Israelite Semites,
Indo-Europeans -- who, by the way, ALSO refer to something like an
Arch-Conspirator and a cosmic Coup d'Etat -- e.g., in the Greek story of
Prometheus and in the Babylonian account of "Creation."
This is intended to be a forum where "orthodox" religious doctrines can be
discussed AMICABLY alongside discussion of ancient mythologies and esoteric
philosophies --
as a backdrop for discussion of more modern "secret societies" and their
worldviews,
the CENTRAL subject matter, really, of our field crudely named "Conspiracy
Theory."
Here, we let readers make up their OWN minds about what is ultimately
"true,"
with no PRESSURE --direct or subtler-- for them to "believe" one way or
another, and toward this end, contributors are asked only to provide
worthwhile DATA for readers to weigh
Re: [CTRL] This is not the Bible discussion list. . .
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 11/19/99 10:39:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: TenebrousT, What is your advice to me, who sees many conspiracies as headed by Satan? Are people like me rightfully part of this group or not? I think there is a difference between stating the source of conspiracy theories and preaching religion and I think we follow that pretty well. I'd appreciate your clarification. Thanks. Terry As I have said, and the disclaimer makes clear, and as Kris has pointed out many times in this forum as well. There certainly is a difference between preaching religion and discussing conspiracy theory, the discussion of religion and how it relates to Conspiracy is welcome and that is why religious discussion is not barred on this list, per se. Having said that it is wise to keep in mind what has been said before, and that is that there should be no attacking of others beliefs, no proselytizing (and that would include forcing YOUR interpretation of what Holy Books say onto other people, or telling them that THEIR interpretation is incorrect), and to have respect for the beliefs of others. Matters of Faith and Belief are strong and personal and should not be the subject of attack in this forum (if this is what you want to do then join another list, there are plenty of Believer lists that would welcome you). SO. . .where does that leave you? As you have said it is your belief that much of the conspiracy that we are embroiled in is sponsored by Satan (the Christian Devil), and you wish to know should you be here and espouse your views? YES, just bear in mind the admonitions. You can make your case and connections to support your contentions AND provide information to those who are interested WITHOUT casting aspersions at others' beliefs, and without trying to convert aybody. I, personally, welcome these types of discussions, and have carried on lengthy ones that deal with religious origins and conspiracy in religion and how it is used to control, etc. So I say, stick around, and share your views just do it with a little tact because these are touchy subjects and matters of belief and faith are inarguable, in the sense that you can't win in any attack against someone elses opinion. (Consider this: If you REALLY believe that X is God, and your FAITH is solid and unyielding, do you think you would change your opinion when I presented reams of data showing that X isn't God, and that Y is? A standard approach to this type of thing is to downplay me and my data so it has less standing in your eyes and the eyes of others, or to simply ignore is, both have potential to interfere with the free exchange of ideas on this list) There are also issues that involve intimidation, some members may hold marginal Christian beliefs but lack the amount of knowledge of others on the list and feel intimidated away from participation, then there are others who have no beliefs who don't want 65 posts on the Bible and LENGTHY Biblical posts in support of some minor contention. Did that clarify things for you? ** *** "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, "The Matrix". "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of seas of infinity, and it is not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but someday the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P.Lovecraft; "The Call of Cthulhu" DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:]
Re: [CTRL] This is not the Bible discussion list. . .
TenebrousT, What is your advice to me, who sees many conspiracies as headed by Satan?Are people like merightfully part of this group or not? I think there is a difference between stating the source of conspiracy theories and preaching religion and I think we follow that pretty well. I'd appreciate your clarification. Thanks. Terry - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 12:30 AM Subject: [CTRL] This is not the Bible discussion list. . . -Caveat Lector-Some people may find the links in this message of use, but let me say that Idon't want this list turned into a forum for Bible thumping and beliefbashing. Thus I will ask that we limit what we say and do in this regard tothe discussion of religion and its relation to Conspiracy Theory, rather thanApologetics, Hermeneutics, Theology, or other issues that have as their basisindividual belief and faith issues that should be left to each to decide forthemselves. The disclaimer in every post is explicit in this regard.Thank you for the links and thank you for heeding this advice.In a message dated 11/18/99 5:17:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: KIRK, DOREEN, PATRICK ALL OF YOU IN THIS EMAIL DISCUSSION LIST CAN GOTO... MY FAVORITE BIBLE STUDY WEB SITES ON THE INTERNET RIGHT NOW AND WRITE ME BACK THANKING ME FOR SHARING THESE TOTALLY COOL SITES WITH YOU. SHALOM - MAG - [EMAIL PROTECTED] MY FAVORITE BIBLE SEARCH ENGINE http://unbound.biola.edu/ A HREF="http://unbound.biola.edu/"The Unbound Bible/A HUGE List of Christian books online including, Bible Dictionaries, Commentaries, etc http://ccel.org/ A HREF="http://ccel.org/"Christian Classics Ethereal Library -- Fiction, etc./A Very Cool Source for books by the CHURCH FATHERS, Augustine, Aquinas,Luther, Calvin, etc http://www.gty.org/~phil/hall.htm A HREF="http://www.gty.org/~phil/hall.htm"Hall of Church History/A Very Cool Source for the CREEDS of various denominations past presentAHREF="http://www.creeds.net/index.htm" http://www.creeds.net/index.htm Creeds of Christendom/A What the Bible Says About... features The New Nave's Topical Bible, http://wbsa.logos.com/search.asp A HREF="http://wbsa.logos.com/search.asp"What the Bible Says About.../A Very Cool site for the serious student of "LOGIC" - A must read for those who wish to debate in a logical manner as opposed to emotional or illogical,etc. http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/welcome.htm A HREF="http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/welcome.htm"StephenDownes : Fallacies/A My Favorite Calvinist, Reconstructionist, Intellectual web site excellent! http://www.chalcedon.edu/ A HREF="http://www.chalcedon.edu/"Chalcedon.edu/A Huge List of links to great Christian Web sites from R.C. Sproul's Ligonier Ministries Web SiteA HREF="http://www.gospelcom.net/ligonier/links.html" http://www.gospelcom.net/ligonier/links.html Links to other sites/A Huge list of "Christian Web Sites" (Some of these sites are questionable) http://nav1-2.webring.com/cgi-bin/navcgi?ring=cchristian;list;page=0 AHREF="http://nav1-2.webring.com/cgi-bin/navcgi?ring=cchristian;list;page=0"Ri ng of Conservative Christian Sites/A*"Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, "The Matrix"."The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the humanmind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of seas of infinity,and it is not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, havehitherto harmed us little; but someday the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifyingvistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelationor flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P.Lovecraft; "The Call of Cthulhu"DECLARATION DISCLAIMER==CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandicscreeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing! These are sordid mattersand 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outrightfrauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effectsspread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial andnazi's need not apply.Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.Archives Available
