CS: Legal-Home Reloading for Section 7(3) Pistols
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I enclose a scan of a letter to the secretary of my club on the subject on being allowed to reload and keep at home ammunition for pistols stored and fired at the Heritage Centre at Bisley. The letter is from Home Office minister, Charles Clarke. First let me point out that Mr. Knight did not suggest that there would be any problems in keeping ammunition at home. In fact he was asking for permission to do so. The last paragraph is absolute nonsense and Mr. Clarke is misinterpreting the Act. Section 7(1) pistol can be kept at home because ammunition for them is not readily available and that means it is not on the market to be bought, because its has been obsolete. By definition, therefore, people cannot have at home as Section 7(1) pistol of the same calibre as Section 7(3) pistol, because the latter would be of the calibre for which ammunition IS READILY AVAILABLE - i.e. in current production. So, if ammunition for a Section 7(3) pistol was stored and reloaded at home, which was Mr. Knight's request, it could not possibly undermine the notion that it was not readily available, because it was "common as muck" anyway - savvy! If I may be forgiven for maligning a Home Office minister, I think that Mr. Clarke is just waffling to justify refusing a perfectly reasonable request! Would this be an appropriate subject for one or our Dave's Rants? Alex. __ As Mr Knight suggests, section 7 of the 1997 Act separates handguns of historical interest into two broad classes. The first, those made before 1919 and for which ammunition is not readily available, may be kept at home without ammunition. The second, handguns of 'particular rarity, aesthetic quality, technical interest or of historical importance', may be kept and used at a site designated for this purpose by the Secretary of State. The first site so designated was at Bisley Camp. When the proposals for designated sites were first considered, it was understood that both the handguns and ammunition for these should be kept at the site itself. Designated sites are expected to provide facilities both for the sale of the more common types of ammunition and for owners of guns to 'home-load' their own ammunition. As Mr Knight suggests, there would be problems in allowing individuals to keep ammunition for their Section 7(3) guns at home. Many of those interested in historic handguns will have guns of the same calibre at home under section 7(1) and at a designated site under Section 7(3). If ammunition for the latter were stored at home, it would undermine the notion that this was not readily available. There is also the risk that Mr Knight raises of the theft of handgun ammunition which is especially sought after by criminals. For these reasons the Home Office does not intend to issue further guidance to chief officers on this issue. -- That's not what guidance says, let alone the law. It is perfectly legal (and normal) for the police to issue people authority to keep ammunition at home for use with their pistol held under Section 7(3). This is the first time I have seen a suggestion otherwise, and it is completely ridiculous to suggest that any site could provide ammunition in every calibre going. Every FAC with 7(3) authority on it has authority to keep the ammo at home, at least what I've seen. Certainly when I applied the local police saw that as a complete non-issue, especially as I had a rifle in 9mm already. (And this is West Mids., bear in mind). If you have Section 7(1) guns then the police are compelled to put a condition on your FAC saying that you cannot keep ammo with it, at least that is what the law appears to indicate. So if you had a Section 7(3) pistol in 7.65 Para for example, and had ammo for it, you couldn't keep that ammo in the same place as your Section 7(1) pistol without violating the condition on your FAC. You might be able to get away with having the ammo stored at a seperate location, but I seriously doubt it as the police would make a stink about it. The whole thing is daft, because if you have a Section 7(1) gun or a war trophy under Section 6 and you also hold an RFD, you can easily obtain ammo although you would violate the condition on your FAC. It would be very difficult to discover though. No doubt we will shortly see some arms dealer with a warehouse full of 9mm and a 9mm Luger his great grandad brought back from WW1 losing his gun and livelihood because he has technically violated the condition on his FAC. My suggestion to your friend is that he writes to the police and Richard Worth or Graham Widdecombe at the HO who might actually have a clue. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Defects of the SA80 Rifle.
From: "John Hurst", [EMAIL PROTECTED] SA 80 "Rifle" By a WW11 Rifleman. It passes comprehension that it should be proposed to throw even more millions after those already wasted on the useless SA 80 "rifle" (if it can be called such!), on top of the original 500,000,000 wasted on its development. It is horribly misshapen. Because the stock is so short, the weight is mostly at the butt end; so that the barrel throws up at automatic, something which the straight butt is supposed to avoid. The barrel waves about wildly, so that the benefit of the vaunted telescopic sight is negated. The shape of the rifle has developed over hundreds of years of trial and error. Why this strange departure? The telescopic sight is useless at close quarters, where a riflemen with a conventional "V" back sight (as on the old Lee Enfield, better at close quarters than the aperture sight favoured by the Americans) will be able to shoot an SA80 wielder several times before the poor fellow can acquire a target. It has no satisfactory open sights. Because of its short butt, the telescopic sight is set on legs so that the riflemen can get his eye to it, so exposing his head from behind cover. It cannot be fired from the left shoulder, because the empty cartridge cases would hit the user in the eye. It may be expected that inconsiderate opponents will take care to advance down the inconvenient street, down which aimed fire will be impossible. It fires from a closed bolt, so preventing cooling air circulating down the barrel, when not firing. The bayonet is shoddy and breaks, but will not take an edge. The bayonet, although useful at close quarters when a magazine is empty, or for use as a dagger, is more usually a tool for chopping wood and all the purposes for which ramblers and Scouts use their sheath knives. This rubbishy thing is useless even for such purposes. The bayonet is the first in the world to be fixed on one side, which must deflect the flight of the bullet. Hence it will fire differently with bayonet fixed. A criticism of the Russian rifle used by the Republican forces in Spain was, that it was designed to be fired with the bayonet fixed, and so fired high without it. That was not too difficult to compensate for, especially with telescopic sights. How does a rifleman compensate for sideways deflection? What lunatic thought of this method of attachment? The barrel is so flimsy that it is liable to bend in bayonet fighting. I understand that bayonet drill has been revised to avoid this. It is heavier than the SLR which it replaced. In the 1985 trials, it failed the sand test three times. What criminal lunatic authorised its production after that? After 300 rounds, if it succeeds in firing that many, the piston has to be removed and carbon deposits scraped off. The piston is in two pieces, and this is a delicate operation. In battle, when the adrenaline is flowing, the soldier's reactions are accelerated, but there is a recognised loss of capacity for fine movements. It is doubtful if this operation could be carried out in action. 300 rounds are nothing with modern automatics. The "Section Support Weapon" derived from the SA80 is even more pitiful. The idea of converting an automatic rifle to a light machine gun, with interchangeable parts, was abandoned by the Americans. The Kalashikovs AK47 and small calibre AK74 were converted successfully, by fitting heavier barrels which do not heat up so quickly, and which can be screwed off and changed when hot. The SSW has the usual slender fixed barrel, which heats up so quickly that guns have to fire in pairs, alternately. The weapon is so flimsy and vibrates so much, that at 300 yards, a burst of 5 rounds ends up 2 feet 6 inches to the left, and higher, than the first round. Consoling thought to those to whom "covering fire" is being given. Some genius has solved this problem. "Fire at single shot". The rate of fire is pitifully slow, limited by the speed at which the gunner can pull his trigger. Presumably, gloves are issued to avoid blistered trigger fingers. The Royal Marines, I am told, have sensibly refused to surrender their tried and trusted Bren Guns. What could be done to make even a cheap cotton purse out of this ugly pig's ear? At enormous cost, involving totally new manufacturing facilities, it could be finished to the same standards of precision engineering expected of weapons on which the very survival of nations may depend, so that it will fire when only lightly oiled, with a smear of graphite grease, or even dry, in sandy or dusty conditions, instead of being so badly finished that it will only fire when awash with oil. It could be assembled more permanently than with weak spot welding, which causes it to fall to pieces if dropped. The flimsy bits of plastic which break off, could be replaced with durable material. The butt could be replaced by plastic which does not melt in contact with insect repellent. A new and better bayonet could be fitted in
CS: Pol-ITV tonight
From: "niel fagan", [EMAIL PROTECTED] There I was minding my own looking at the teletext about Liars lying son and I hear shooting from the box, switch back to picture and there's a FULL BORE pistol "match" being shot, with a super-tv-cop doing very well and then throwing the match. So I kept watching, drivel about bent gunsmiths, re-ac-de-ac, finishing with (after getting it and a full mag from a locked gun cab.) a "child" and big mac (mac10) spraying his tormentors (bullies getting shot by victim?). One of the main thrusts was he (the bent gunsmith) a LATHE, ok who on the lists into model engineering or similar? Do I need a licence for my toolmakers lathe at work The second parts next week at 9, I may watch for further ammo (Written words NOT bullets) to throw at the ITC Niel. -- What was the name of the programme? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc- US Military Terminology
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steven, I was puzzled by a number of interpretations, so I asked a friend in USA for comments and here they are. By the way, I thought he was a Cybershooter. Regards, Alex. _ Now to the translations. You are talking about grazing fire in defilade (not duffel-A), which makes no sense. Enfilade would make sense. If however you are speaking of indirect artillery fire, a grazing fire in defilade can be done. Defilade indicates troops are out of sight of their enemy, generally behind a hill, or in some kind of defile. Enfilade means the people doing the firing are on the flank of their enemy and able to sweep the entire length of the troop deployment. In the Navy, it is referred to as "crossing the enemies "T". Indirect artillery fire from a howitzer battery, fires an arching trajectory over the barrier, or hill, coming down along the reverse slope. Depending on the skill of the gunners, and the angle of the hill's slope, the artillery rounds can in some cases graze along the surface, plunge into the surface (plunging fire), or do and aireal detonation above the target area. Hardened targets such as bunkers, and tanks are not much affected by this last one, but troops in the open are wasted. Grazing and plunging fire are a bit hard on tanks, and hardened bunkers. Modern weaponry which can be guided from the firing point, or programmed to look for certain targets makes targeting a bit easier. You could put the round into someone's canteen cup. In both WW I and WW II, machine gunners were trained to arch machine gun fire so as to have it come down on the reverse slope of hills. As air craft became more reliable, this practice fell into disuse. There was a period in WW I that troops firing in unit mass were trained to arch fire onto a reverse slope. This did not last long. The training saw a brief resurrection in WW II, and was again dropped. Since I am in no way acquainted with the movie you mentioned, I don't know if this has been any help at all. One can only hope. Ed Crooks Meeker, Colorado -- And the film was shot in Colorado! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-NY State sues
N.Y. Takes Aim State Sues Gunmakers, Citing æCondition of DangerÆ The State of New York is the first state to sue the firearms industry. They claim gun manufacturers and wholesalers created "a condition of danger." (Liana J. Cooper/AP Photo) By Samuel Maull The Associated Press N E W Y O R K, June 26 ù The state of New York filed suit today claiming gun manufacturers and wholesalers created ôa condition of danger,ö becoming the first state to sue the firearms industry. The state will ask that a court abate a dangerous public nuisance, New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer said at a news conference. Thirty-two cities and counties around the country, including New York City, have filed suits against the industry. Many of those actions were filed as negligence claims. New YorkÆs suit, however, takes advantage of a state law that says illegal guns are a public nuisance. It was filed in State Supreme Court, a trial-level court in New York. ôWe have to show that in their pursuit of profits, they created and maintained a condition of danger in our state,ö Spitzer said. Code of Conduct More than a year ago, Spitzer began talks aimed at persuading gun makers to adopt a code of conduct and change manufacturing and distributing practices to prevent the flow of weapons to criminals. The code asked gun makers to install gun locks on all firearms they sell, introduce ôsmart gunö technology within three years and prohibit the sale of weapons at gun shows without background checks. In March, the nationÆs largest maker of handguns, Smith Wesson, agreed to adopt the code of conduct. It was not named in the New York state suit. In April, several other large gun companies sued Connecticut, New York and 16 local governments over their bid to have law enforcement agencies buy guns only from manufacturers that upheld the code of conduct. In May, the gun industry ended negotiations that had been aimed at settling the local-government suits. Spitzer said the suit by the industry prompted his action. Among the manufacturers named in the New York lawsuit are Glock, Beretta U.S.A., ColtÆs Manufacturing Co., Taurus, Ruger Co. and Inratec. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Colorado court okays gun show referendum
Colorado high court clears way for vote on gun show loophole DENVER (AP) _ The Colorado Supreme Court has rejected an attempt by the gun lobby to keep off the Nov. 7 ballot an initiative that would close the so-called "gun-show loophole." Currently, only people buying guns from federally licensed dealers have to undergo criminal background checks at gun shows. Sales by private dealers are exempted. The initiative, pushed by families of last year's Columbine High shootings, would require background checks for all sales at gun shows. Robyn Anderson, who provided the killers three of the guns used at Columbine, bought them at a Denver-area gun show. Anderson, who was 18 when she bought the guns, testified before the Colorado Legislature that she would not have bought the weapons if she had to go through a background check. Teen-agers Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed 12 students and a teacher before killing themselves in the April 20, 1999 massacre. The state's high court, in its ruling Monday, rejected the gun lobby's argument that the initiative was too broad and the language misleading. Proponents of the initiative said they have the 62,300 signatures they need to get the initiative on the ballot, but will try to get 40,000 more to make up for any signatures ruled invalid. Gun-rights advocate Dudley Brown said challenges to the initiative would continue. "We will fight the signatures they get," said Brown, head of Rocky Mountain Gun Owners. "We don't believe it was legal to gather signatures before the Supreme Court had ruled and the language was set." Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Sawn off shotguns
From: "John Sukey", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I can't speak about issue to the U.S. Army, but they certainly were a favorite of some of the Confederate Cavalry! I suppose that doesn't count. I have no doubt that any captured ones were put to the same use on the Union side. -- They were used by the US Army during WW1 for trench clearing, as the Germans lodged official complaints about it. Unfortunately no-one mentioned this to the Supreme Court. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Churchill as Home Secretary
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] My interest in a possible second occasion on which Churchill was Home Secretary stems from this story he told: "(some time after the Great War) The King called me in and introduced me to a Russian gentleman who turned out to be the ex-Russian Communist Ambassador from Vienna, who had defected to the White Russian side and fled Austria in fear of assassination. I questioned whether he had been wise, as we had had ten ssassinations of White Russians in the last (month/3 months, I'm not sure which). He seemed to think he had made the right decision. I said that in fact a White Russian had been assassinated the day previously and I presumed that was the reason for the pistol in his pocket? He said that he knew, it had been a friend of his. I presume that's his pistol in your pocket, I asked, that you don't have authority to carry? Yes, he said. I presume some policeman returned it to you, I asked. No, he said, the assassinated man's companion had taken the pistol from his dead hand and shot at the assailant with it, missing, and then pocketed the pistol, later giving it to him. I know you have decided to disarm your people to prevent a revolution, said the Russian, and I fear it will have tragic consequences. I am carrying this pistol to defend myself with. I am a poor man and cannot afford a fortress and armed guards, so I carry a pistol, even though your Home Secretary would not like it. I am the Home Secretary, I said, and if you apply to a magistrate tomorrow I will see to it that you have authority to carry that pistol AND a fortress AND armed guards, we have to stop this. The Russian was on his way to a magistrate's court the next morning when he and his companion were assassinated. Both were carrying pistols. He had commented cynically that as a White Russian he now supported the restoration of the Czar, the Duma, Holy Church and Mother Russia. He also commented that the 'Communist Revolution' was in fact a coup by a clique of the Russian intelligence service." Anybody know anything about an open season on White Russians in London, fairly soon after the Great War? Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org -- Hmm, I assume Churchill was referring to a Gun License under the 1870 Act as magistrates have nothing to do with firearm certificates so it must have been a fairly narrow period around 1919. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-US military terminology
From: "Hugh Bellars", [EMAIL PROTECTED] "When you reach this bunker, lay down grazing fire on this duffle-A." Did Anthony mishear "Triple-A", ie anti aircraft armament? Grazing fire doesn't ring a bell. Sounds like it would ruin a bullock's whole day. Sorry that I'm a bit late into this one... 'Grazing fire' sounds like it is related to the military terminology 'first graze'. This is the point in the flight of a bullet where it will strike the ground, or a prone man. The point where the trajectory will strike the head of a standing man is known as the 'first catch'. The point between them is the 'beaten zone'. I guess that 'grazing fire' in this context is supposed to mean long range fire onto a fixed point on the ground - in this case the 'defilade'. Hugh -- I can't find anyone at the MoD who knows what the "beaten zone" is, they all seem to think the LSW is a counter-sniper weapon, not a machinegun. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
