RE: Chulin 007: The powers of evil
(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Chulin 007: The powers of evil Rabbi Lehrfield wrote: By the way, there is also a Ralbag similar to the Or ha'Chaim. He explains that the reason that the friends of Daniel (it is too hard for me to spell their names in English) were forced to leave the fire and that they did not want to leave the fire was because they were afraid that Nevuchadnezzer would harm them even though G-d had just save them. (I heard the above explanation on a Rabbi Reisman tape) . Jeffrey Katz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just to add another prominent opinion which seems to be in concert with the Ohr HaChaim, one should take a look at the Biur Halachah (Siman 218), dh K'gon. In that Biur Halachah, the Chafetz Chaim, in trying to explain a Halachah brought down by the Kaftor VaPherach, states that although HaKadosh Baruch Hu specifically requested Eliyah HaNavi to appear before Achav, nevertheless, Achav is considered a Ba'al Bechira with regard to the life of Eliyahu and thus Eliyahu's life was deemed to be in danger. Jeffrey Katz To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with this text in the body of the message: unsubscribe daf-discuss
RE: Re: Chulin 007: The powers of evil
(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Chulin 007: The powers of evil Rabbi Moshe Lehrfield wrote: The first answer given by the kollel is interesting; however, it implies that another person can, in fact, harm another person even though such harm is not preordained from above. This is very difficult for me to except. Most people have a simple understanding that whatever occurs to a person whether naturally or through the act of another person is because the one above has decreed it to be so. Of course, there may be an exception to this rule in the case of witchcraft, which needs further clarification. There is a wonderful discussion of this entire matter in Sifsai Chaim. The Kollel replied: Difficult as it sounds, the Or ha'Chayim that we quoted (in Bereishis 37:21) indeed says that a person can, in fact, harm another person even though such harm is not preordained from above. I discussed this Or ha'Chayim with Hagaon Rav Moshe Shapiro (Bayit Vegan) shlit'a recently, and tried to argue that he doesn't really mean that the preordained can be changed by another person, but that greater merit is necessary to prevent damage being inflicted by a free-choosing person than to prevent damage by an animal etc. However, Rav Moshe did not accept my argument and said that the Or ha'Chayim's words imply that a person can, in fact, harm another person even though such harm is not preordained from above. Rabbi Lehrfield replies: Thank you so much for the response. I am aware of the shita of the Or ha'Chaim, however, I believe, that this is not the excepted opinion. Furthermore, notwithstanding the opinion of Harav Shapiro, the Sifchei Chaim (who, I understand, learned together with Harav Shapiro from Harav Dessler) clearly says that this explanation is not the opinion of the Or ha'Chaim; rather, it is limited to that one situation between Yosef and his brothers , based on a concept similar to that of ayin harah (but in general, even the Or ha'Chaim agrees that a person cannot harm another unless it was preordained from above). I also heard from my Rosh Yeshiva that there is a Kabalah from the Vilna Gaon that the halacha is not like the Or ha'Chaim and that the concept of witchcraft is as explained by the nefesh ha'chaim (which explanation, I did not fully understand). By the way, there is also a Ralbag similar to the Or ha'Chaim. He explains that the reason that the friends of Daniel (it is too hard for me to spell their names in English) were forced to leave the fire and that they did not want to leave the fire was because they were afraid that Nevuchadnezzer would harm them even though G-d had just save them. (I heard the above explanation on a Rabbi Reisman tape) . Thank you To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with this text in the body of the message: unsubscribe daf-discuss
RE: Re: Chulin 007: The powers of evil
(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Chulin 007: The powers of evil Rabbi Lehrfield wrote: By the way, there is also a Ralbag similar to the Or ha'Chaim. He explains that the reason that the friends of Daniel (it is too hard for me to spell their names in English) were forced to leave the fire and that they did not want to leave the fire was because they were afraid that Nevuchadnezzer would harm them even though G-d had just save them. (I heard the above explanation on a Rabbi Reisman tape) . Morris Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] adds On the same topic---Rav Isaac Bernstein,ztl, also stated on his tape on parshat vayeshev that the Ohr Hachaim's concept of bechira is also alluded to in the beginning of tachanun --when David Hamelech asks to fall into the hands of Hashem and not into human hands To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with this text in the body of the message: unsubscribe daf-discuss
Re: Chulin 007: The powers of evil
(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Chulin 007: The powers of evil Dr. M. Kaplan asked: The Gemara first quotes Rebbi Chanina who says that nothing (even Keshafim) has power in this world except for Hashem, as it is written, There is nothing besides Him (Devarim 4). Rebbi Chanina further states that a person does not hurt his finger unless decreed from above. The Gemara then quotes Rebbi Yochanan who says that sorcerers are called Keshafim because they are Makchishin Pamalya Shel Ma'alah, -- they contravene the powers of above. The Kollel replied: The answer to your question involves two elements... Rabbi Moshe Lehrfield writes: Thank you. The first answer given by the kollel is interesting; however, it implies that another person can, in fact, harm another person even though such harm is not preordained from above. This is very difficult for me to except. Most people have a simple understanding that whatever occurs to a person whether naturally or through the act of another person is because the one above has decreed it to be so. Of course, there may be an exception to this rule in the case of witchcraft, which needs further clarification. There is a wonderful discussion of this entire matter in Sifsai Chaim. The second explanation is nice, but I do not think that it is the Pshat. M. Lehrfield -- The Kollel replies: (a) Difficult as it sounds, the Or ha'Chayim that we quoted (in Bereishis 37:21) indeed says that a person can, in fact, harm another person even though such harm is not preordained from above. I discussed this Or ha'Chayim with Hagaon Rav Moshe Shapiro (Bayit Vegan) shlit'a recently, and tried to argue that he doesn't really mean that the preordained can be changed by another person, but that greater merit is necessary to prevent damage being inflicted by a free-choosing person than to prevent damage by an animal etc. However, Rav Moshe did not accept my argument and said that the Or ha'Chayim's words imply that a person can, in fact, harm another person even though such harm is not preordained from above. (b) I am not sure what your difficulty was with the second explanation. Perhaps you found it difficult to fit into the words of Rebbi Chanina that a person does not stub his toe on this world unless it is decreed from above; how can that be referring only to the very meritorious? However, that statement is not discussing harm being caused by a Ba'al Bechirah, but rather harm that comes by itself. Therefore it is true of everyone; one will not stub his toe without having it decreed from above. The other statement, Ein Od Milvado, is limited by the Gemara itself to those who are unusually meritorious, as we said in our second explanation (which complements the first). M. Kornfeld To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with this text in the body of the message: unsubscribe daf-discuss
Re: Chulin 007: The powers of evil
(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Chulin 007: The powers of evil Dr. M. Kaplan asked: The Gemara first quotes Rebbi Chanina who says that nothing (even Keshafim) has power in this world except for Hashem, as it is written, There is nothing besides Him (Devarim 4). Rebbi Chanina further states that a person does not hurt his finger unless decreed from above. The Gemara then quotes Rebbi Yochanan who says that sorcerers are called Keshafim because they are Makchishin Pamalya Shel Ma'alah, -- they contravene the powers of above. How are we to reconcile these two statements? - The Kollel replied: The answer to your question involves two elements. First, Rebbi Chanina is not teaching that bodily harm that is caused by another person is decreed from above. Rather, he is referring to what happens to a person through the natural course of events without human intervention The second part of the answer to your question is that Keshafim cannot damage every person. There are certain people, such as Rebbi Chanina (who says that a person does not hurt his finger unless decreed from above), who are invulnerable to the powers of Keshafim. This is discussed by RAV CHAIM of VOLOZHEN in his classic work, NEFESH HA'CHAIM (3:12). He writes that the power of sorcery comes from the control that Hashem gave to man over certain lower metaphysical powers, powers that come through the stars and constellations. They do not have control over the powers that come from the holy Merkavah of Hashem, and the realm of the Mal'achim (celestial beings). When a person has firmly established Emunah in his heart that there is no other force in the world other than the will of Hashem, and his thoughts are so connected to the Master of all forces that it is clear to him that nothing else has any control or existence at all without Hashem's will, he can be confident that the forces of sorcery will have no influence over him (unless Hashem so desires) - Yeshayhu HaKohen Hollander comments: Dear Rabbi, A radically different interpretation may be given - I don't remember who gave this one: In the statememt of Rabbi Hanina Ein Adam Nokef etsba'o milemata ela im ken machrizin alav milmala one should not translate the word Machrizin as Decreed but as Announced, which is the usual translation of machrizin, as in the case of a lost item. The impact of the statement of Rabbi Hanina is that even a small thing done below is announced above: that the almighty is not indifferent even to a small action or hurt in this world. According to Rashi Nokef is Hurt; but Nokef has often another meaning: to pass or to bend, as shanim inkofu - years will pass. The difference between the two translations of NOKEf is: if Nokef = hurt, like Rashi - the announcer only announces hurts; if Nokef = bends, the heavenly announcer announces even seemingly insignificant actions. this would have similar meaning to Rabbi Akiva's statement Hakol Tsafui vehareshut netuna, as some interpret: Everything done is seen = registered [by the almighty], but is enabled by him [hareshut netuna], which ststement is amplified by the saying kol ha'omer HKBH vatran - yivatru meav - anyone who says that HKBH lets one do an action without getting the appropriate reward or punishment - will have his innards cut, because Hapinkas patuah veayad roshemet: everything is written down and account is taken. In this way Ein ode milvado: nothing can escape His presence: everything is noticed by Him. Rabbi Yohanan's statement Makchishin Pamalya Shel Ma'alah, like false witnesses who makchish other witnesses, but not contravene. Again, this is an old problem: what are the powers of Kishuf, if any. Yeshayhu HaKohen Hollander To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with this text in the body of the message: unsubscribe daf-discuss
