RE: Chulin 021: How does Shechitah kill an animal?
(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Chulin 021: How does Shechitah kill an animal? The Kollel wrote: Shechitah must cut a majority of the trachea. Accordingly, the animal cannot inhale if the trachea is severed rather than punctured. Jan Buckler [EMAIL PROTECTED] comments: I would be interested in hearing from a vet on this matter because there are documented cases of animals living with fully cut windpipes. The most famous is the case of Mike the Chicken who lived 18 months after its non-Jewish owner tried to kill it by chopping off its head. The cut went awry leaving one ear and most of the brain stem. The cut missed the jugular vein and any bleeding blood vessels developed clots. Nevertheless,the bird lived. Periodically, its owner used a syringe to suction out phlegm and placed feed into the animal's esophagus. The bird's death came one night when its owner awoke to sounds of the chicken choking and could not find the syringe fast enough. Veterinarians sain that the majority of the autonomic function in a chicken is contained in the brain stem and that the vast majority of Mike's brain stem survived the cleaver strike. While it is certain that without the owner's care the chicken would have died earlier, it is also clear the the chicken did not die shortly after its head was chopped off. Please see pictures attached. Jan Buckler attachment: chul-021.2c2.jpg
RE: Chulin 021: How does Shechitah kill an animal?
(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Chulin 021: How does Shechitah kill an animal? Avrohom Tzvi Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked: It appears to me that by cutting the windpipe of an animal we are actually improving it's ability to breath. Jan Buckler [EMAIL PROTECTED] commented: I would be interested in hearing from a vet on this matter because there are documented cases of animals living with fully cut windpipes. The most famous is the case of Mike the Chicken who lived 18 months after its non-Jewish owner tried to kill it by chopping off its head. (See http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/story.htm for more details.) Yitzchok Zirkind [EMAIL PROTECTED] notes: In my humble opinion something should be pointed out here. This question doesn't apply to cattle which needs that both Simanim be cut, and Nekuvas ha'Veshet b'Ma'she'hu (and perhaps the combination of the cutting of the two tubes weakens the animal enough to kill it). However with regard to fowl, cutting most of the windpipe is a valid Shechitah. (That is the case in which you are wondering how the fowl dies through Shechitah.) Kol Tuv, Yitzchok Zirkind Josh Marder [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The way that my chevrusa and I understood the concept of treif is that it would die naturally were it not for any human intervention preventing that death from occuring. Because the person was feeding the chicken through a syringe, etc, that does not prevent the status of being a treif. An example of this concept would be the cow which can no longer graze being treif (45B) even though it could easily be kept alive by human intervention. Is this the proper perspective? Josh Marder --- The Kollel replies: I am not sure that what you say is consistent with the Gemara on 57b. There we are told of someone who made a splint for a chicken with a dislocated thigh, and yet the Gemara insists that it would not be able to help the bird survive longer than 12 months since a dislocated thigh makes a bird a Tereifah, and a Tereifah cannot be made to live longer than 12 months (if Tereifah Einah Chayah). Perhaps, though, the Gemara is talking about the norm, i.e. commonly available types of therapy. In very very unusual situations a Tereifah can perhaps be made to live longer than 12 months, either by using a normally unavailable type of therapy, or if the animal had some outstanding quality. (It is obvious that imitations of Mike the Headless Chicken have yet to arrive; it must have been an extremely unusual situation due to a combination of factors.) M. Kornfeld To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with this text in the body of the message: unsubscribe daf-discuss
Re: Chulin 021: How does Shechitah kill an animal?
(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Chulin 021: How does Shechitah kill an animal? Avrohom Tzvi Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked: It appears to me that by cutting the windpipe of an animal we are actually improving it's ability to breath. Jan Buckler [EMAIL PROTECTED] commented: I would be interested in hearing from a vet on this matter because there are documented cases of animals living with fully cut windpipes. The most famous is the case of Mike the Chicken who lived 18 months after its non-Jewish owner tried to kill it by chopping off its head. (See http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/story.htm for more details.) Elliot Benjamin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am not a vet but an Ear, Nose and Throat Surgeon. It is clear that in the case of humans then can certainly survive with both trachea and esophagus completely severed. Yes, they would need other routes of nutrition and a way of securing the cut end of the trachea to the skin to prevent it closing off (as in a laryngectomy). But, the question still seems to stand that unless the Dam Nefesh is released i.e. via cutting the carotid artery or jugular veins then the animal may not necessarily die, yet this does not appear to be a halachic requirement for shechita (for Chulin)? Dr. Elliot Benjamin BSc. (Hons), MRCS., DLO To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with this text in the body of the message: unsubscribe daf-discuss
