Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
John Galt wrote: The big package breakups have historically been related to licensing issues Not as far as I can remember. The X breakup and the netbase breakup, for instance, had nothing to do with licenses that I know of. -- see shy jo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
Purpose of Rant: Stir up the coals ... Have you already put some meat? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
I thought the netbase breakup was because of a old-BSD/GPL license incompatibility... On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Joey Hess wrote: John Galt wrote: The big package breakups have historically been related to licensing issues Not as far as I can remember. The X breakup and the netbase breakup, for instance, had nothing to do with licenses that I know of. -- Pardon me, but you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a damn. email [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, erik wrote: I just can't keep my mouth shut about this any longer and the unnecassary divisions (read demolitions) of KDE packages are the last straw: I've been tracking the development of KDE2 for months and running it quite successfully using unofficial debs (cheers to the folks at kde.tdyc for bucking authority!) [and this drivel continues and continues for paragraphs] You _do_ realize that the same guy who packaged it for kde.tdyc _is_ the same guy who is packaging it for Debian proper? I think this is a pretty blatant example of the obvious failings of an aging and inflexible beuracratic empire that cares more for its protocols and levels of authority heh. Excuse, but as one future developer, I have to say that I see Debian as the group that cares the _most_ for doing things right. We may argue about _how_ to implement stuff, or even _why_ or _if_, but that's because the people involved care. Yes, there are petty bickers, and factions, and so on, but Debian is still the only distribution that exists on the scale it does and work well. minutia and complaining about how there is too much to be done while keeping outsiders waiting for months to even recieve acknowledgement of reciept of application to voluteer (Oh, Yes, You too can help with the Debian Project - just jump through these thirty complicated hoops and apply to be a developer and wait around for a year or so and then if we think you're cool ... garbage, why bother?). That's not true at all. So far, I'm in the new maintainer queue, and have a number of offers from sponsors to upload packages whenever they are ready. If you want to package something, at this point, yes, you should get into the queue, but finding a sponsor isn't very hard. Debian is about participation, and if you participate, you see results. And try not to prove my point with condescending flames - its not attractive. My flame isn't condescending. It's based on the fact that a) Ivan is doing a fine job of getting KDE re-packaged, give him some time. b) complaining about the new maintainer queue isn't productive, so go do something productive with that energy. and finally c) you really come off whiny. If you don't like the manual, help write a better one. If you don't like the way Debian deals with new users, help change it, by setting an example. File bug reports if nothing else. Etc. another happy Debian user, Seth -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
uhh, FYI...the same person who did the package on kde.tdyc.com is the same and only person doing the packaging for Debian. The fact that I finally had time to work on the *MANY* requests to break down the packages and the fact that KDE *IS* beta shouldn't cause anyone to start pointing fingers at anyone else. It's kinda funny that I have not seen any bug reports (on the kde.tdyc.com mailing lists nor on the Debian BTS) about your problems. The current set of .deb's work fine for me on 3 different systems and I have not heard any other problems. (so far) There were problems with earlier builds due to alot of rework on the KDE side (mainly dealing with kdebase) but those issues have been fixed. A rant because your up until now functional beta packages decided to start croaking will solve nothing except cause those that work hard to bring you those packages to get fed up alot quicker and want to just drop it. Ivan aka [EMAIL PROTECTED] aka the KDE.tdyc.com guy aka the guy who uploaded the packages your griping about On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:47:22AM -0700, erik wrote: Hi, I just can't keep my mouth shut about this any longer and the unnecassary divisions (read demolitions) of KDE packages are the last straw: I've been tracking the development of KDE2 for months and running it quite successfully using unofficial debs (cheers to the folks at kde.tdyc for bucking authority!) ... it was fine and coming along very nicely. Was. And all it took was a week or so in the hands of a ridiculously complicated and politically petty beuracracy like this and being subjected to an absurdly complex re-packaging scheme to completely destroy a perfectly useful desktop. First kdm goes, next update strange browser crashes commence, next update the whole desktop is TOTALLY USELESS and no longer even works for ANYTHING! On top of which it is now slated for an unknown eternity in unstable ... well, now that its broken I guess that's where it belongs. Nice job. I think this is a pretty blatant example of the obvious failings of an aging and inflexible beuracratic empire that cares more for its protocols and levels of authority (these things are oh so important, not trivial matters at all ...) than making a good distribution anymore. Debian has become an elitist club and it angers me because it is potentially the finest OS available - but I am losing faith in that potential ever being met. And that is very sad. I realize that this does not apply to many Debian developers - but if the general attitude and atmosphere does not change here Debian will drift into obscurity and forfiet the contributions that many talented people would gladly have donated to the cause. The general disdain of newbies and atmosphere of thinly veiled contempt (RTFM! ... uh, right; what manual?) combined with an inflexible hierarchical beuracracy are dragging this project into the mud right when it should be taking off with the rest of the linux world. But no, Debian is spending its time arguing about minutia and complaining about how there is too much to be done while keeping outsiders waiting for months to even recieve acknowledgement of reciept of application to voluteer (Oh, Yes, You too can help with the Debian Project - just jump through these thirty complicated hoops and apply to be a developer and wait around for a year or so and then if we think you're cool ... garbage, why bother?). I'm sorry, being a Debian developer does not make one inherently superior to other developers or persons that just use software, nor does it make one's opinions about Debian development more valid - the end user is the one that knows the most about what a piece of software needs to be able to do. And without and end user your software is not superior, it is just useless bits taking up storage. Arrogance and conceit are the signs of decay. And they certainly _not_ conducive to enthusiastic community participation and the resulting high quality software, which was the whole point of the free software movement and the creation of the Debian Project - or was it? Think about it. And try not to prove my point with condescending flames - its not attractive. /CRITIQUE -- Erik Winn -- Never underestimate. Period. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---end quoted text--- -- Ivan E. Moore II [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snowcrash.tdyc.com GPG KeyID=90BCE0DD GPG Fingerprint=F2FC 69FD 0DA0 4FB8 225E 27B6 7645 8141 90BC E0DD -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:47:22AM -0700, erik wrote: I just can't keep my mouth shut about this any longer and the unnecassary divisions (read demolitions) of KDE packages are the last straw It's the same developer making them that made the ones at kde.tdyc. There's no evil empire, there's just a few random bugs (I remember a few bugs in the kde.tdyc one's, too.). The KDE debs are in the same hands they were before; I don't believe anyone's forcing Moore to break the packages. I think this is a pretty blatant example of the obvious failings of an aging and inflexible beuracratic empire that cares more for its protocols and levels of authority (these things are oh so important, not trivial matters at all ...) than making a good distribution anymore. Debian has become an elitist club and it angers me because it is potentially the finest OS available - but I am losing faith in that potential ever being met. And that is very sad. [More rants cut] And try not to prove my point with condescending flames - its not attractive. Then don't start out with them. You've blamed Debian for the actions of one developer at the same time you praised the actions of that developer outside of Debian. You then went into a wild rant, claiming that the cause of these problems was an inflexible beuracratic empire (that managed to include KDE in a matter of what, a week?). You sounded like some wild-eyed fanatic, not someone pointing out a real problem and discussing solutions. -- David Starner - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http/ftp: dvdeug.dhis.org And crawling, on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in space, lost in time, and meaning. -- RHPS -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 12:12:45AM -0500, David Starner wrote: On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:47:22AM -0700, erik wrote: I just can't keep my mouth shut about this any longer and the unnecassary divisions (read demolitions) of KDE packages are the last straw BTW, what would it take for someone to be forced to break up a package or make some other major change? The only thing I can think of that could do it is a amendment to policy or something more drastic. (Is this written in some document that I need to read?) -- David Starner - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http/ftp: dvdeug.dhis.org And crawling, on the planet's face, some insects called the human race. Lost in space, lost in time, and meaning. -- RHPS -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, erik wrote: On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, you wrote: You _do_ realize that the same guy who packaged it for kde.tdyc _is_ the same guy who is packaging it for Debian proper? Yep, I do -and it worked great before he had to repackage it. You could have simply copied them from tdyc and had done with it. That's not true at all. So far, I'm in the new maintainer queue, and have a number of offers from sponsors to upload packages whenever they are ready. If you want to package something, at this point, yes, you should get into the queue, but finding a sponsor isn't very hard. Didn't work for me. and finally c) you really come off whiny. If you don't like the manual, I'm sorry if honest criticism sounds whiny to you. help write a better one. If you don't like the way Debian deals with new users, help change it, by setting an example. I have written some - in fact I sat down and wrote a whole system to help organize and automatically produce a documentation UI specfically for debian packages; it was summarily dismissed without, as far as I can tell, anyone even looking at it. another happy Debian user, Seth Actually, I am too - otherwise it certainly wouldn't be worth it to subject myself to this inevitable barrage ... :} Erik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:47:22AM -0700, erik wrote: *snip* I just can't keep my mouth shut Clearly. all it took was a week or so in the hands of a ridiculously complicated and politically petty beuracracy like this Yes, a bureaucracy of one man, Ivan E. Moore II, who, I think has done an outstanding job. Debian has become an elitist club You're going to have to fight with some other folks on this point, who feel it always has been. I realize that this does not apply to many Debian developers But you'll bitch and moan anyway. Debian is spending its time arguing about minutia I think you mean minutae, or you are missing a singular article. smiles sweetly And try not to prove my point with condescending flames - its not attractive. As you so elegantly illustrated. In any case, my personal speciality is ugly. Never underestimate. Period. Try cutting back on the overstatement, too. -- G. Branden Robinson |Communism is just one step on the long Debian GNU/Linux|road from capitalism to capitalism. [EMAIL PROTECTED] |-- Russian saying http://www.debian.org/~branden/ | pgpBphIZMQ3Ft.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, you wrote: uhh, FYI...the same person who did the package on kde.tdyc.com is the same and only person doing the packaging for Debian. The fact that I finally had time to work on the *MANY* requests to break down the packages and the fact that KDE *IS* beta shouldn't cause anyone to start pointing fingers at anyone else. Ivan, I want to apologize to you personally - I fully realize that you are doing the work on KDE and ( as I mentioned before) I think you are doing a great job. I have been running KDE from the other site and believe me this was not targeted at you - if anything quite the opposite. The point was that overbearing regulations had prevented a smooth (and easy) integration of KDE. It's kinda funny that I have not seen any bug reports (on the kde.tdyc.com mailing lists nor on the Debian BTS) about your problems. The current Actually, the broken update happened about 20 minutes before said rant - the other bugs I chalked up to beta. xerrors is about 50K and I have not really figured out what is relevant yet - although I suspect the new non-ssl linking scheme ... BTW, the rant has been a long time coming - this just keyed it. Purpose of Rant: Stir up the coals ... Erik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
You _do_ realize that the same guy who packaged it for kde.tdyc _is_ the same guy who is packaging it for Debian proper? Yep, I do -and it worked great before he had to repackage it. You could have simply copied them from tdyc and had done with it. had??? I didn't have to anything except conform to Debian policy which I was doing prior to uploading in preperation for the day in which I could (or someone coudl) upload it... In fact The Debian ftp folks were reluctant to install the packages due to lintian errors but did so and noted to me that I better get them fixed eventually... The difference between the kde.tdyc.com packages and the ones I uploaded to Debian are minimal. Instead of all the games coming in as one package, I broke them down. kdebase stayed the same. kdelibs stayed the same except I am now building 2 seperate packages..one with ssl support and one without. The kde.tdyc.com packages did not have ssl support for hte longest time. kdemuiltimedia (which hasn't been installed yet due to a screw up on my part) and koffice I broke down as well. I will continue to break the packages down as time permits. (oh yea..kdepim as well) Either way, if kde failes to work for you, then file a frikken bug report. If it does, be happy. Evenutally it will break again prior to woody's release I can guarentee it. You won't see it's stability until KDE 2 is officially released...I won't guarentee it nor would a KDE developer. There is still active development of it..things are getting tweaked and I don't always catch changes (as with a recent problem with KDE which caused it not to start up properly). If you don't like unstability then don't use an unstable version of Debian (or any distribution for that matter). If you want a stable KDE, use 1.1.2. Ivan -- Ivan E. Moore II [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snowcrash.tdyc.com GPG KeyID=90BCE0DD GPG Fingerprint=F2FC 69FD 0DA0 4FB8 225E 27B6 7645 8141 90BC E0DD -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 01:32:54PM -0700, erik wrote: Purpose of Rant: Stir up the coals ... You don't backpedal nearly as well as you bitch. -- G. Branden Robinson | Debian GNU/Linux|It tastes good. [EMAIL PROTECTED] |-- Bill Clinton http://www.debian.org/~branden/ | pgpLeY6muhzgc.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
BTW, the rant has been a long time coming - this just keyed it. Purpose of Rant: Stir up the coals ... Hey erik, grow up. Debian has enough flamewars without you stirring the coals intentionally. 'The broken update happened 20 minutes before the rant' HUH? Geez. plonk Seth -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
Ivan, I want to apologize to you personally - I fully realize that you are doing the work on KDE and ( as I mentioned before) I think you are doing a great job. I have been running KDE from the other site and believe me this was not targeted at you - if anything quite the opposite. The point was that overbearing regulations had prevented a smooth (and easy) integration of KDE. FYI and to anyone else reading. The direction I have gone with the packaging of KDE for Debian has not changed since day 1. I have focused on conforming to Debian policy (which I have mostly done already) and making the user base happy (breaking down of the packages) which is what I am focusing on now. I have had over the period of time that I hosted these packages on kde.tdyc.com had a crapload of broken packages. The ol' it work's here factor seems to work just as well today as it did back then. Until upstream settles down a bit and the source of problems focus's more on how I put them together we will still see bugs like the ones you see. You should see the list of porting issues I'm dealing with...up until now the KDE2 stuff hasn't been looked at beyond i386 and powerpc (for woody) and it shows. :) So I'm doing alot of work with that. Not once has any other Debian developer told me what to do (at least not since Branden told me to fix kdm from breaking xdm like almost 2 years ago). The extent that any other person has done have been requests...and I treat them as I do requests I get from folks like yourself. It's kinda funny that I have not seen any bug reports (on the kde.tdyc.com mailing lists nor on the Debian BTS) about your problems. The current Actually, the broken update happened about 20 minutes before said rant - the other bugs I chalked up to beta. xerrors is about 50K and I have not really figured out what is relevant yet - although I suspect the new non-ssl linking scheme ... This is a possiblity...I haven't tested this whole thing alot. But, since your using woody, you are a beta tester and thus are my guinnee pig! muhaha BTW, the rant has been a long time coming - this just keyed it. Purpose of Rant: Stir up the coals ... Well, I thank you for the high blood pressure and the doctors visit. :) -- Ivan E. Moore II [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snowcrash.tdyc.com GPG KeyID=90BCE0DD GPG Fingerprint=F2FC 69FD 0DA0 4FB8 225E 27B6 7645 8141 90BC E0DD -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Seth Cohn wrote: BTW, the rant has been a long time coming - this just keyed it. Purpose of Rant: Stir up the coals ... Hey erik, grow up. Debian has enough flamewars without you stirring the coals intentionally. Yes, it does - I still think the points were worth bringing up. Sorry if they aren't important to you; if you're not interested don't waste your time. And, um, about growing up ... chances are pretty good I'm older than you :). Seth -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, you wrote: FYI and to anyone else reading. The direction I have gone with the packaging of KDE for Debian has not changed since day 1. I have focused on conforming to Debian policy (which I have mostly done already) and making the user base happy (breaking down of the packages) which is what I am focusing on now. I have had over the period of time that I hosted these packages on kde.tdyc.com had a crapload of broken packages. The ol' it work's here factor seems to work just as well today as it did back then. Until upstream settles down a bit and the source of problems focus's more on how I put them together we will still see bugs like the ones you see. You should see the list of porting issues I'm dealing with...up until now the KDE2 stuff hasn't been looked at beyond i386 and powerpc (for woody) and it shows. :) So I'm doing alot of work with that. Not once has any other Debian developer told me what to do (at least not since Branden told me to fix kdm from breaking xdm like almost 2 years ago). The extent that any other person has done have been requests...and I treat them as I do requests I get from folks like yourself. Point taken. I retract my critique of this instance - it just looked like that was what was happening. the other bugs I chalked up to beta. xerrors is about 50K and I have not really figured out what is relevant yet - although I suspect the new non-ssl linking scheme ... This is a possiblity...I haven't tested this whole thing alot. But, since your using woody, you are a beta tester and thus are my guinnee pig! muhaha I have it on two (other) machines - one has not yet been updated from the first beta4 debs. I'll see if I can get anything more specific for you. I hac to leave during the upgrade and missed the errors. There is also a depends conflict between kdelibs3 (-dev?) and kdeutils-dev that means you must force the selection in dselect (hits an endless depends loop). Also, qt2.2-dev causes a dselection of mesag-glide and friends that leads to the driver for voodoo cards; this is very difficult to get out of (you must mark the Utah 3D library) and if the glide/voodoo driver gets installed on a non-voodoo machine its kind of messy ... Specifics on linking I will try to look into - I actually have KDE sources on hand so I may try the build with your debian/rules and see if anything sticks out. Well, I thank you for the high blood pressure and the doctors visit. :) Sorry about all the racket - I just really had to get it off my chest, and, hey, its good for the circulation ;-]. Erik PS. I have offered to help with KDE before and the offer still stands. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
erik == erik [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
erik BTW, the rant has been a long time coming - this just keyed it.
The rant has been a long time coming. And then it comes forth,
and the one lone specific amidst all the confused vituperative
outpouring happens to be patently false. A long message full of
unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.
I see why you used the word rant:
==
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:
Rant \Rant\, v. i. [imp. p. p. {Ranted}; p. pr. vb. n.
{Ranting}.] [OD. ranten, randen, to dote, to be enraged.]
To rave in violent, high-sounding, or extravagant language,
without dignity of thought; to be noisy, boisterous, and
bombastic in talk or declamation;
==
without dignity of thought. Seems an apt description.
manoj
--
Lady, lady, should you meet One whose ways are all discreet, One who
murmurs that his wife Is the lodestar of his life, One who keeps
assuring you That he never was untrue, Never loved another
one... Lady, lady, better run! Dorothy Parker, Social Note
Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
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Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
erik == erik [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: erik Yes, it does - I still think the points were worth bringing up. Sorry if erik they aren't important to you; if you're not interested don't erik waste your time. And wahat points were these again? (Given that there was no growing bureaucracy involved pusing the pooor developer to hideous contortions). Even there, what experience can you bring to the table of how to run a geographically and, to an lesser extent, ideologically diverse group of people? (given that you imply that the current set of agreed-upon rules are bureaucratic).. erik And, um, about growing up ... chances are pretty good I'm erik older than you Only Chronologically. manoj -- The blight of a woman is misconduct. The blight of a giver is meanness. Bad mental states are indeed blights in this world and the next. 242 Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, erik wrote: Yep, I do -and it worked great before he had to repackage it. You could have simply copied them from tdyc and had done with it. Ok, this is where I have to voice my opinion as well... First off, the packages WILL NOT build on Alpha (and possibly other archs...not sure why as of yet), so simply copying them from the other source may work for i386 (and you), but most likely will serve to piss off someone other than you (like me, for instance). Last I checked, Debian supports multiple architectures, and sometimes that needs to be taken into account before anyone says just use those, they work fine. Also, maintainers will do what they will do. Quite a few packages have taken directions that I personally didn't care for, but that's the way things go. I assure you that very few of us decide spontaneously to restructure our packages. Usually, we do so in responce to more than a few requests and/or bug reports. Secondly, I think Ivan's been doing a fine job with getting KDE2 packaged and reworking the stuff that he's already done. I'll go a step further and say that, had he not been kind enough to provide the KDE packages from his site to begin with, you wouldn't be having this problem at all unless you were running unstable and JUST installed KDE (like many of us are either doing or trying to do, if we can get it to compile on our arch). Despite the fact that Ivan is a Debian maintainer, this does stir up the argument as to whether or not Debian should be responsible for packages offered by third parties (or breakage caused by said packages). I think we've settled this many times over in the past, as have commercial companies who are asked about products not endorsed by them: YMMV...call the person who made them, don't blame us. To go on and on about the organisation of Debian and its shortcomings (in your opinion) benefits no one and alienates those who may want to listen to your ideas otherwise. I always think it's a shame when things digress to the level that this exchange has taken. If possible, can you (and everyone angered by the original message) take a deep breath and relax? I, for one, would like to hear some rational ideas for solutions for the problems that you've encountered. Perhaps, then, we can learn what we can, implement what we think will work, throw out what we think won't, and put this behind us so we can get some more work done. Didn't work for me. I'm sorry that the new maintainer process is such a headache. While I have nothing at all to do with NM (none whatsoever), I will offer an apology for any hassles that you've encountered while in the process. It can be a mind-numbing experience, from what I hear, and one that's been the point of endless arguments and flame wars in the past. I have written some - in fact I sat down and wrote a whole system to help organize and automatically produce a documentation UI specfically for debian packages; it was summarily dismissed without, as far as I can tell, anyone even looking at it. I'd be interested in looking at it. Honestly, this is the first I've heard of such an effort. C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 02:05:48AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
==
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:
Rant \Rant\, v. i. [imp. p. p. {Ranted}; p. pr. vb. n.
{Ranting}.] [OD. ranten, randen, to dote, to be enraged.]
To rave in violent, high-sounding, or extravagant language,
without dignity of thought; to be noisy, boisterous, and
bombastic in talk or declamation;
==
without dignity of thought. Seems an apt description.
/me looks at Culus.
--
Michael Beattie ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
-
liw for p in `SELECT people FROM #[sekrit] WHERE personality
CONTAINS gentle`; do greet done
-
Debian GNU/Linux Ooohh You are missing out!
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Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 12:23:12AM -0500, David Starner wrote: I just can't keep my mouth shut about this any longer and the unnecassary divisions (read demolitions) of KDE packages are the last straw BTW, what would it take for someone to be forced to break up a package or make some other major change? The only thing I can think of that could do it is a amendment to policy or something more drastic. Even that would be a postponed forcing, as a not-broken-up package could still exist, declaring an older Standards-Version. :) -- Digital Electronic Being Intended for Assassination and Nullification -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, you wrote: Thank you for a cool response - I was really hoping that would eventually happen. I realize I stirred up a hornets nest; I did it intentionally because otherwise nobody seems to notice and I think that at least some of what I originally wrote (goading aside) is important. You happened to pick out probably the most practically important one with the issue of the protocols for accepting new voluteers. There are some other points in there that are more abstract political points that don't have simple answers - but they are the sort of thing that really won't change at all if they remain hidden; perceptions are not always apparent to the percieved. I have been watching people turn and be turned away for quite awhile now and I really thought it was worth a little trouble to point it out. I _like_ the debian project - why else put myself up for attack to point out an embarressing fact? Really much easier to just go to bed ... very valid points (alpha etc.) excerpted To go on and on about the organisation of Debian and its shortcomings (in your opinion) benefits no one and alienates those who may want to listen to your ideas otherwise. I always think it's a shame when things digress to the level that this exchange has taken. If possible, can you (and everyone angered by the original message) take a deep breath and relax? I, for one, would like to hear some rational ideas for solutions for the problems that you've encountered. Perhaps, then, we can learn what we can, implement what we think will work, throw out what we think won't, and put this behind us so we can get some more work done. Exactly. This is in fact the purpose of voicing opinions in an open forum. Personally, I would like to make one proposal - I hope other people will have others but an obvious practical problem is the process of accepting volunteers; its clearly a bottleneck: a. Assign more people to process applications - kind of self-explanatory. b. Establish at least two teirs of contribution - people who are interested in helping with less technical aspects need not be subjected to the same screening process as package maintainers. So if, for example somebody says hey, could I help with paperwork or the website or something ? they can be easily accepted to work on something. Voluteering should not be a full time job. c. (optimally) Rewrite the pages that explain how to apply and give a clearer and more complete description of tasks available and what level of expertise each requires. d. (optimally) simplify the protocols for applying. Maybe we can start a constructive discussion now. I'm sorry that the new maintainer process is such a headache. While I have nothing at all to do with NM (none whatsoever), I will offer an apology for any hassles that you've encountered while in the process. It can be a mind-numbing experience, from what I hear, and one that's been the point of endless arguments and flame wars in the past. On behalf of others ( and myself) I thank you for the kind words too - but really lets hope this gets something moving :). I have written some - in fact I sat down and wrote a whole system to help organize and automatically produce a documentation UI specfically for debian packages; it was summarily dismissed without, as far as I can tell, anyone even looking at it. I'd be interested in looking at it. Honestly, this is the first I've heard of such an effort. hmmm, er, shit, well i hope this doesn't look like a pr scam now ... but, anyway you can grab a .deb from unilinux.sourceforge.net; just go in the anonymous ftp, there is a package called ddoc-0.4.2_all_.deb (i think)... newer than the release ... its in development and right now it thinks it depends on deb-make _and_ debhelper ... mumble, mumble ... better go to bed now ... Erik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 04:39:33PM -0700, erik wrote: I realize I stirred up a hornets nest; I did it intentionally because otherwise nobody seems to notice and I think that at least some of what I originally wrote (goading aside) is important. Personally, I would like a normal post better. I read 4-5 lines of your initial post, after which I instantly decided it's a flamebait and moved on to the next message. a. Assign more people to process applications - kind of self-explanatory. This is Debian, so s/Assign more people/Get more volunteers/. b. Establish at least two teirs of contribution - people who are interested in helping with less technical aspects need not be subjected to the same screening process as package maintainers. So if, for example somebody says hey, could I help with paperwork or the website or something ? they can be easily accepted to work on something. Voluteering should not be a full time job. We have quite a few translators who aren't developers but do have CVS access to the web site repository, actually. All it takes is to mail the appropriate person (debian-www or the translation coordinator). Don't know about debian-doc, it's probably more or less the same (mail the list or the doc coordinator). c. (optimally) Rewrite the pages that explain how to apply and give a clearer and more complete description of tasks available and what level of expertise each requires. You'd have to talk to Taketoshi Sano about his English :o) d. (optimally) simplify the protocols for applying. It seems to me that it shouldn't get more simple that what it is now, otherwise we'd have too many people who became developers far too quickly and easily to be able to contribute quality stuff fast enough. Just IMHO. BTW you should put your real name in From:. -- Digital Electronic Being Intended for Assassination and Nullification -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, erik wrote: Thank you for a cool response - I was really hoping that would eventually happen. I realize I stirred up a hornets nest; I did it intentionally because otherwise nobody seems to notice and I think that at least some of what I originally wrote (goading aside) is important. You happened to pick out probably the most practically important one with the issue of the protocols for accepting new voluteers. There are some other points in there that are more abstract political points that don't have simple answers - but they are the sort of thing that really won't change at all if they remain hidden; perceptions are not always apparent to the percieved. I have been watching people turn and be turned away for quite awhile now and I really thought it was worth a little trouble to point it out. I _like_ the debian project - why else put myself up for attack to point out an embarressing fact? Really much easier to just go to bed ... Good point :-) I hope NM can be improved as well. I've got someone that I know will help the Alpha port that's still in process after several months now, but it's like molasses flowing uphill in winter to get him finally in the project. very valid points (alpha etc.) excerpted Hheehehe... Personally, I would like to make one proposal - I hope other people will have others but an obvious practical problem is the process of accepting volunteers; its clearly a bottleneck: a. Assign more people to process applications - kind of self-explanatory. Not to stir anything up, here, but, to the NM team, what exactly is the process for dealing with NM applications? I've tried to stay away from politics mostly, but I've always been curious about this. I know it involves a phone call, getting ID proof, and getting their key signed, but other than that, I'm clueless. To help streamline it, is it something that (technically) any of us can do if we know the person or are closer geographically to them than the normal members of NM? b. Establish at least two teirs of contribution - people who are interested in helping with less technical aspects need not be subjected to the same screening process as package maintainers. So if, for example somebody says hey, could I help with paperwork or the website or something ? they can be easily accepted to work on something. Voluteering should not be a full time job. We get offers, but I kinda agree with the rest on this issue. Documentation, IMO, is just as important as the software itself. I know we don't always practice that principle, but we should. To maintain docs on par with the quality of the software releases, I'd personally feel more comfortable knowing that anyone that's taking care of docs has the same knowledge/credentials/whatever that the package maintainers do. c. (optimally) Rewrite the pages that explain how to apply and give a clearer and more complete description of tasks available and what level of expertise each requires. I'd like to see this as well, but lack the time to volunteer to improve it. I've got enough tasks just keeping Alpha going, porting HURD to Alpha, seeking a job (yes, I'm unemployed), keeping my wife from throwing my computers off of the balcony, and keeping up with my Quake clan duties :-P I also think that whatever it is that NM does while processing an application should be documented (not per person, just in general...I think applicants would like to know what the steps are that you're going through while they wait). d. (optimally) simplify the protocols for applying. Hmmm...expand on this, please...I'm not clear on what protocols for applying means. Maybe we can start a constructive discussion now. Hope so :-) hmmm, er, shit, well i hope this doesn't look like a pr scam now ... but, anyway you can grab a .deb from unilinux.sourceforge.net; just go in the anonymous ftp, there is a package called ddoc-0.4.2_all_.deb (i think)... newer than the release ... its in development and right now it thinks it depends on deb-make _and_ debhelper ... mumble, mumble ... better go to bed now ... Hahahaha...I ftp'ed the debs, but was wondering if there's a source package around. I usually like to prod at stuff without installing it (I know, I've already extracted the debs elsewhere on my disk, but it's nicer to have everything in one spot). I'll take a look at everything more this weekend. Looks interesting, though. C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
Aach, no sleep for the wicked this darkling eve ... at least not for me. or morning, whatever. On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 07:57:41AM -0400, Christopher C. Chimelis wrote: Good point :-) I hope NM can be improved as well. I've got someone that I know will help the Alpha port that's still in process after several months now, but it's like molasses flowing uphill in winter to get him finally in the project. I hope so too! a. Assign more people to process applications - kind of self-explanatory. Not to stir anything up, here, but, to the NM team, what exactly is the process for dealing with NM applications? I've tried to stay away from politics mostly, but I've always been curious about this. I know it involves a phone call, getting ID proof, and getting their key signed, but other than that, I'm clueless. To help streamline it, is it something that (technically) any of us can do if we know the person or are closer geographically to them than the normal members of NM? Good Question. Takers? b. Establish at least two teirs of contribution - people who are interested in helping with less technical aspects need not be subjected to the same screening process as package maintainers. So if, for example somebody says hey, could I help with paperwork or the website or something ? they can be easily accepted to work on something. Voluteering should not be a full time job. We get offers, but I kinda agree with the rest on this issue. Documentation, IMO, is just as important as the software itself. I know we don't always practice that principle, but we should. To maintain docs on par with the quality of the software releases, I'd personally feel more comfortable knowing that anyone that's taking care of docs has the same knowledge/credentials/whatever that the package maintainers do. That's a good point - at least as far as actual composition goes. But there are parts of the whole process of documenting that really don't require that much background; eg. general editing, grammar, style, putting things into formats, ie. general presentation. Sometimes somebody less knowledgable will have the best feedback - they are, after all, the primary beneficiaries. And what may be a clear description to a developer is not necessarily clear to a user. I happen to know an excellent technical writer that would be happy to pitch in but he knows very little about linux so ... c. (optimally) Rewrite the pages that explain how to apply and give a clearer and more complete description of tasks available and what level of expertise each requires. I'd like to see this as well, but lack the time to volunteer to improve it. I've got enough tasks just keeping Alpha going, porting HURD to Alpha, seeking a job (yes, I'm unemployed), keeping my wife from throwing my computers off of the balcony, and keeping up with my Quake clan duties :-P I also think that whatever it is that NM does while processing an application should be documented (not per person, just in general...I think applicants would like to know what the steps are that you're going through while they wait). d. (optimally) simplify the protocols for applying. Hmmm...expand on this, please...I'm not clear on what protocols for applying means. Actually I was refering to what you just described - all of the steps involved in applying. It is very difficult to even gather what those steps are; seems like this could be consolidated and streamlined somewhat for at least some kinds of participation. Preferably any, although I understand the concern for quality. Still there is a point of diminishing returns with QA. Hahahaha...I ftp'ed the debs, but was wondering if there's a source package around. I usually like to prod at stuff without installing it (I Its in CVS: pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/cvsroot/unilinux co ddoc - I think that is working now, haven't actually checked recently. cheers, Erik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:47:22AM -0700, erik wrote: Hi, I just can't keep my mouth shut about this any longer and the unnecassary divisions (read demolitions) of KDE packages are the last straw: I've been tracking the development of KDE2 for months and running * darkewolf listens to his kids Erik, you are a smelly head! peter 'darkewolf' crystal -- email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] || [EMAIL PROTECTED] || [EMAIL PROTECTED] url : http://cyberpunks.org/darke/homepage.phtml url : http://netverse.sourceforge.net/ gpg key : http://cyberpunks.org/keys/darke_gpg.asc Abair ach beagan agus abair gu math e. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, erik wrote: [lots of stuff deleted -- basically a bitch about new maintainer] On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 07:57:41AM -0400, Christopher C. Chimelis wrote: Good point :-) Not really: [1] This point (if it really erik's point -- hard to tell) is not well expressed by erik's subject line, and was not well expressed in any of erik's original posts. Even the current post is way to verbose to be worth quoting. [2] New Maintainer is a tough job, with a lot of work to be done (especially because we weren't processing applications at all, last year, because things had gotten so out of hand and the people dealing with it had gotten so stressed out). In spite of that, NM is processing people at a fairly decent rate (and most of the people who haven't been processed haven't had their identities confirmed, yet). Not to stir anything up, here, but, to the NM team, what exactly is the process for dealing with NM applications? Please read: http://nm.debian.org -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 01:52:36PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote: On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 04:39:33PM -0700, erik wrote: I realize I stirred up a hornets nest; I did it intentionally because otherwise nobody seems to notice and I think that at least some of what I originally wrote (goading aside) is important. Personally, I would like a normal post better. I read 4-5 lines of your initial post, after which I instantly decided it's a flamebait and moved on to the next message. Yes, I am sure most people would. However, I have noticed that normal posts on topics of this nature are handily dispatched with singular consistancy, usually with reference to historical discussion buried somewhere deep in the list archives. Or just ignored. Squeaky wheels, Drastic Measures, Desparate Times and all that. Some times the grotesque is simply the most engaging. Caught _you_ checking back in, didn't we? :;-} This is Debian, so s/Assign more people/Get more volunteers/. Beware circular logic. This just means that the first thing to do is accept people that would like to learn the ins and outs of the application process. It would be well worth the time to teach them, don't you think? We have quite a few translators who aren't developers but do have CVS access to the web site repository, actually. All it takes is to mail the appropriate person (debian-www or the translation coordinator). If that is the case then two things could happen: a. apply the same standards of access for some other insert long list things that need attention and b. Post information on this prominantly Don't know about debian-doc, it's probably more or less the same (mail the list or the doc coordinator). Personally, I have never recieved any acknowledgement that anyone even looked at mail I have sent ... and, no, I'm not really habitually obnoxious:). They probably got tossed with a thousand other emails, really quite normal in a large organization. Regards, Erik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:05:26AM -0400, Raul Miller wrote: ...sigh. Exhibit A: On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, erik wrote: [lots of stuff deleted -- basically a bitch about new maintainer] On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 07:57:41AM -0400, Christopher C. Chimelis wrote: Good point :-) Not really: [1] This point (if it really erik's point -- hard to tell) is not well expressed by erik's subject line, and was not well expressed in any of erik's original posts. Even the current post is way to verbose to be worth quoting. [2] New Maintainer is a tough job, with a lot of work to be done (especially because we weren't processing applications at all, last year, because things had gotten so out of hand and the people dealing with it had gotten so stressed out). In spite of that, NM is processing people at a fairly decent rate (and most of the people who haven't been processed haven't had their identities confirmed, yet). Not to stir anything up, here, but, to the NM team, what exactly is the process for dealing with NM applications? Please read: http://nm.debian.org -- Raul Oh well, at least nobody can say, Well, nobody ever said anything ... . I tried. Regards, Erik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:01:11PM -0700, Debian Linux User wrote: [snip] Please read: http://nm.debian.org -- Raul Oh well, at least nobody can say, Well, nobody ever said anything ... . I tried. Well, what, exactly? Would you mind actually telling us what you mean? I thought Raul's email was to the point. The NM process is documented, there is a mailing list for its discussion, new maintainers are on their way in at an increasing rate: What exactly is your problem? Jules -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Raul Miller wrote: [2] New Maintainer is a tough job, with a lot of work to be done (especially because we weren't processing applications at all, last year, because things had gotten so out of hand and the people dealing with it had gotten so stressed out). In spite of that, NM is processing people at a fairly decent rate (and most of the people who haven't been processed haven't had their identities confirmed, yet). Hmmm...ok, looking at the pages that you sent me told me a lot about what's going on with NM. Very informative, btw...nice job. Looks like quite a backlog has been created by NM being shut down for so long. But, after picking a few people to look at that are currently in-process, some have experienced some unbelievably ridiculous delays (see http://nm.debian.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED] for a good example does it really take a month or more to make a phone call?). There are quite a few of them that are simply waiting for phone calls, according to the records on nm.debian.org, and have been waiting for a month or more... C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 03:40:26PM +0100, Jules Bean wrote: Please read: http://nm.debian.org Oh well, at least nobody can say, Well, nobody ever said anything ... . I tried. Well, what, exactly? Would you mind actually telling us what you mean? I thought Raul's email was to the point. The NM process is documented, there is a mailing list for its discussion, new maintainers are on their way in at an increasing rate: What exactly is your problem? He is: 1. a bit dense 2. trolling 3. both First he specifically posts flamebait about KDE in Debian knowing full well the reaction it would get in a pathetic plea for personal attention and to try and rekindle the whole KDE flamewar. Then after all of his original issues (which had to be inferred since no real amount of sense could be found in the several screenloads of drivel he posted..) And then after he's deomonstrated that he wishes to be both disruptive and destructive to the project he wants NM to be fixed in some unspecified way so he can become a Debian developer. This thread (and his inability to configure his email software) cause me to question his qualifications as a Debian developer. He certainly seems like he would not make much of a positive influence in or reflection on the project as a whole. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Knghtbrd JHM: I'm not putting quake in the kernel source Knghtbrd but we should put quake in the boot floppies to one-up Caldera's tetris game.. ; -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
Yes, I am sure most people would. However, I have noticed that normal posts on topics of this nature are handily dispatched with singular consistancy, usually with reference to historical discussion buried somewhere deep in the list archives. Or just ignored. Been lurking here for 2 years now and I've never noticed the above. Squeaky wheels, Drastic Measures, Desparate Times and all that. I'd hardly call KDE not being perfect within a week of submission or a new mantainer signup process that's been slug-like for 2+ years as canidates for Desparate Times. Yes NM is slow, everyone knows that, it's getting better. Nothing is preventing you from writing a wiz-bang application to automate the process and speed the whole thing up, btw. Also for future reference: Everyone knows it takes forever to get releases out. Everyone knows we're free software bigots. Everyone knows we're a pain in the ass with regards to software licenses. Everyone knows that Alpha/PPC/etc doesn't get the support i386 does. No need to troll on any of the above to get our attention. We're all quite aware of the issues and will be happy to listen to moderate posts on the subjects. -Mark -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
The big package breakups have historically been related to licensing issues (either a license incompatibility that's been pointed out or a change in licensing that broke compatibility), so the bug pointing out the license issue might be seen as forcing the breakup... On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, David Starner wrote: On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 12:12:45AM -0500, David Starner wrote: On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:47:22AM -0700, erik wrote: I just can't keep my mouth shut about this any longer and the unnecassary divisions (read demolitions) of KDE packages are the last straw BTW, what would it take for someone to be forced to break up a package or make some other major change? The only thing I can think of that could do it is a amendment to policy or something more drastic. (Is this written in some document that I need to read?) -- You have paid nothing for the preceding, therefore it's worth every penny you've paid for it: if you did pay for it, might I remind you of the immortal words of Phineas Taylor Barnum regarding fools and money? Who is John Galt? [EMAIL PROTECTED], that's who! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
