Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Doug wrote: > [...] > There has been a world of improvement since then. Altho I must agree > that the Man pages that include examples are a blessing! > Or a curse. Some of them have all the examples, except the one that will actually help in a situation :). Back to "try it an see what happens

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Hi there On 30/12/16 18:25, deloptes wrote: Lisi Reisz wrote: Try reading what I have actually said, whilst making some attempt to understand it, instead of just contradicting it. You do enjoy contradicting people, don't you? Hah, Lisi I just got the same impression from Xen. I am

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Hi there On 29/12/16 14:44, cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: [sorry for the late response.] On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:05:48AM +0100, Thomas Schmitt wrote: It is not easy to describe a program with many use cases and even more particular settings and actions. What lacks to my experience

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On 03/11/2017 06:47 AM, Martin Read wrote: On 11/03/17 08:32, cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: Oh, come on! What you call good documentation means writing for a user who has no clue about what the program does. That kind of documentation is *really important*, because that's a big part of

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Martin Read wrote: > That kind of documentation is *really important*, because that's a big > part of how people who don't know how to use the software learn to use > it; not everyone has a learning style well suited to beating their head > against the brick wall of "all the documentation assumes

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On 11/03/17 08:32, cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: Oh, come on! What you call good documentation means writing for a user who has no clue about what the program does. That kind of documentation is *really important*, because that's a big part of how people who don't know how to use the

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Sun, Jan 01, 2017 at 12:52:20PM +0100, Xen wrote: > Lisi Reisz schreef op 31-12-2016 10:30: > > >Which make me bad at writing? > > > >Lisi > > Refusing to write good documentation on purpose. Oh, come on! What you call good documentation means writing for a user who has no clue about what

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Sun, Jan 01, 2017 at 12:00:21PM +, Lisi Reisz wrote: > On Sunday 01 January 2017 11:52:20 Xen wrote: > > Lisi Reisz schreef op 31-12-2016 10:30: > > > Which make me bad at writing? > > > > > > Lisi > > > > Refusing to write good documentation on purpose. > > "%(&_++**!& I've often thought

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

David Wright wrote on 01/02/17 15:41: > On Sun 01 Jan 2017 at 12:39:26 (+0100), Xen wrote: >> rhkra...@gmail.com schreef op 31-12-2016 15:12: >> >>> But, info pages could work. >> >> Yes, let's propose that. They are just impossible to navigate if you >> are not an insider. > > I don't know what

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Monday, January 02, 2017 12:01:33 PM David Wright wrote: > On Mon 02 Jan 2017 at 11:19:21 (-0500), rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Monday, January 02, 2017 09:41:07 AM David Wright wrote: > > > I have no problem navigating them. I usually consult them with the > > > function > > > > > > $

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Mon 02 Jan 2017 at 11:19:21 (-0500), rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > On Monday, January 02, 2017 09:41:07 AM David Wright wrote: > > I have no problem navigating them. I usually consult them with the function > > > > $ info --output=/dev/stdout --subnodes "$1" | less > > > > which works well with

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Monday, January 02, 2017 09:41:07 AM David Wright wrote: > I have no problem navigating them. I usually consult them with the function > > $ info --output=/dev/stdout --subnodes "$1" | less > > which works well with PageUp/Dn. > Nice, thanks! It seems that to get info for a specific

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Sun 01 Jan 2017 at 12:39:26 (+0100), Xen wrote: > rhkra...@gmail.com schreef op 31-12-2016 15:12: > > >But, info pages could work. > > Yes, let's propose that. They are just impossible to navigate if you > are not an insider. I don't know what an "insider" is. I have no problem navigating

Re: [OT] on education [was]: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

I know you are trying to EOT this, but, from someone trying to teach high school English, ... On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 7:40 AM, Nicolas George wrote: > Le duodi 12 nivôse, an CCXXV, deloptes a écrit : >> No time to discuss too long with you > > [...] > The truth is that the level

Re: [OT] on education [was]: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Le duodi 12 nivôse, an CCXXV, deloptes a écrit : > No time to discuss too long with you Well, if you took time to find exact pointers rather than links to a huge website and a 80+ pages document, you would realize you cannot find anything to support the theory that the average level has decreased

[OT] on education [was]: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Nicolas George wrote: > Without objective evidence of that "fact", you are just another old > geezer who complains about today's youth. I'll let it to your imagination and will to find the truth, but here are some interesting facts https://www.ei-ie.org example how IMF is dealing with education

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

deloptes schreef op 01-01-2017 14:09: Xen wrote: And what is that supposed to mean? You are really acting like a child now. LOL - she makes fun of you - you just have to stop. I am not reading your comments any more - there is no value in them. One last thing before I unsubscribe again.

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

deloptes schreef op 01-01-2017 14:09: Xen wrote: And what is that supposed to mean? You are really acting like a child now. LOL - she makes fun of you - you just have to stop. I am not reading your comments any more - there is no value in them. She was not making fun of me. She was just

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Le duodi 12 nivôse, an CCXXV, deloptes a écrit : > The fact is that education > and scientific success declined after WWII worldwide Without objective evidence of that "fact", you are just another old geezer who complains about today's youth.

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Nicolas George wrote: > Le duodi 12 nivôse, an CCXXV, deloptes a écrit : >> this is not true. Europe and US including Russia had exponential growth >> during the 18-19century. This all was killed by the FED and the layers, >> through the revolutions and the marxist-communists, who are now called

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Le duodi 12 nivôse, an CCXXV, deloptes a écrit : > this is not true. Europe and US including Russia had exponential growth > during the 18-19century. This all was killed by the FED and the layers, > through the revolutions and the marxist-communists, who are now called > green party or alike, but

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Xen wrote: > And what is that supposed to mean? You are really acting like a child > now. LOL - she makes fun of you - you just have to stop. I am not reading your comments any more - there is no value in them.

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Nicolas George wrote: > Considering people have been saying exactly that for every period of > time since the Antiquity, and the literacy rate then was less than > 20%... I will leave you draw your own conclusions. this is not true. Europe and US including Russia had exponential growth during

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Xen schreef op 01-01-2017 13:18: "and that you wanted your specific solution laid out for you in the man page instead of figuring it out yourself" and "should abandon the noob mindset". Those are just insults to begin with and they ARE ad hominems in actual fact. And I just want to

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Lisi Reisz schreef op 01-01-2017 13:00: On Sunday 01 January 2017 11:52:20 Xen wrote: Lisi Reisz schreef op 31-12-2016 10:30: > Which make me bad at writing? > > Lisi Refusing to write good documentation on purpose. "%(&_++**!& And what is that supposed to mean? You are really acting like

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Lisi Reisz schreef op 31-12-2016 10:37: Yes, I know, I am not good at it. That makes you insincere as well because you do not even agree with what you say, you do not even agree with your own wisdom. You do one thing and say another, which makes me feel you realize *deep down* that I am

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Sunday 01 January 2017 11:52:20 Xen wrote: > Lisi Reisz schreef op 31-12-2016 10:30: > > Which make me bad at writing? > > > > Lisi > > Refusing to write good documentation on purpose. "%(&_++**!& Lisi

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Lisi Reisz schreef op 31-12-2016 10:37: On Saturday 31 December 2016 08:48:09 Xen wrote: Oh and yes, mentioning someone else's behaviour to another person is not an ad hominem attack Catherine. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ad+homonem=ad+homonem=chrome..69i57.3014j0j7=chrome=UTF-8

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Lisi Reisz schreef op 31-12-2016 10:30: Which make me bad at writing? Lisi Refusing to write good documentation on purpose.

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Le duodi 12 nivôse, an CCXXV, Dan Purgert a écrit : > > [...] I don't know about US, but here in EU all is getting averaged to > > the lowest mark possible. > Pretty sure they've been doing that here since at least the 80s. It's > become even more pronounced since '00 though. Considering people

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

rhkra...@gmail.com schreef op 31-12-2016 15:12: But, info pages could work. Yes, let's propose that. They are just impossible to navigate if you are not an insider. The fact that pretty much no one uses them is not a red herring at all.

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

deloptes wrote: > [...] I don't know about US, but here in EU all is getting averaged to > the lowest mark possible. Pretty sure they've been doing that here since at least the 80s. It's become even more pronounced since '00 though. -- |_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947 |_|_|O| Github:

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 4:37 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: > > Can we all agree to ignore this clown > ​?​ > ​I can. PLONK.​

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Saturday, December 31, 2016 04:34:16 AM Nemeth Gyorgy wrote: > 2016-12-30 03:23 keltezéssel, rhkra...@gmail.com írta: > > There is noting magic about man pages--what I'm trying to say is that, > > someone could start writing something similar to man pages, with all the > > detail or

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Saturday 31 December 2016 08:48:09 Xen wrote: > Oh and yes, mentioning someone else's behaviour to another person is not > an ad hominem attack Catherine. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ad+homonem=ad+homonem=chrome..69i57.3014j0j7=chrome=UTF-8 How can something which attacks a named person

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

2016-12-30 03:23 keltezéssel, rhkra...@gmail.com írta: There is noting magic about man pages--what I'm trying to say is that, someone could start writing something similar to man pages, with all the detail or introductory / explanatory material you (they) might want. Maybe call them bman (for

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Saturday 31 December 2016 07:23:13 Xen wrote: > Lisi Reisz schreef op 30-12-2016 3:31: > > On Friday 30 December 2016 01:37:53 Xen wrote: > >> Re Lisi: > > > > You clearly find wittering on yourself more fun than actually reading > > what > > other people have written. You have actually quoted

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

You know, at risk of contradicting myself here. rhkra...@gmail.com schreef op 30-12-2016 3:23: There is noting magic about man pages--what I'm trying to say is that, someone could start writing something similar to man pages, with all the detail or introductory / explanatory material you

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Catherine Gramze schreef op 30-12-2016 4:32: ​Ad hominem attacks now, Xen, since you cannot refute the simple fact that man pages were designed to be a reference, not a tutorial?​ If the topic is attitudes, then those belong to people don't they? You'll need examples, won't you? You defend

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Lisi Reisz schreef op 30-12-2016 3:31: On Friday 30 December 2016 01:37:53 Xen wrote: Re Lisi: You clearly find wittering on yourself more fun than actually reading what other people have written. You have actually quoted my precise words, then accused me in your paraphrase of having said

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

rhkra...@gmail.com schreef op 30-12-2016 3:23: My suggestion is you spend less time discussing it, and get started on writing a few bman pages... So your suggestion is to start using a system that doesn't exist and instead of having discussion about how this system should be designed, you

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Saturday 31 December 2016 00:07:34 deloptes wrote: > > If he is not employed, as most open source developers are not, he can't > > be fired.  People who are doing things as a hobby and because they enjoy > > them, do the bits they enjoy.  Which is why so much wonderful open source > > software

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Lisi Reisz wrote: > That is definitely debatable. > > https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ancient+greek+computer=ancient+greek+computer=chrome..69i57.6858j0j7=chrome=UTF-8 > > In what way is the Antikythera mechanism not a computer?  And where did > your 400 years come from? >

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Friday 30 December 2016 19:46:59 deloptes wrote: > rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > > Well, just to add another viewpoint (and because it was (is?) a sore > > point with me): > > > > * I used to program on paper (and, really, still do on those rare > > occasions)--I think out what I plan to do, even

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > Well, just to add another viewpoint (and because it was (is?) a sore point > with me): > > * I used to program on paper (and, really, still do on those rare > occasions)--I think out what I plan to do, even to the level of code or > pseudocode--then I go to a machine

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Lisi Reisz wrote: > Try reading what I have actually said, whilst making some attempt to > understand it, instead of just contradicting it.  You do enjoy > contradicting people, don't you? > Hah, Lisi I just got the same impression from Xen. > I am glad to hear that the education system in

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 02:24:28PM -, Dan Purgert wrote: >> Anyway, isn't this where the differences between say "man something" and >> "man 5 something" come into play? Or rather, the implication that >> section 1 (or whatever) may only hold a basic overview, and then

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Dan Purger writes: > Probably should be 'manng' (for 'next generation'), or perhaps mand (to > fit in with systemd) ;) That's called "info". > Anyway, isn't this where the differences between say "man something" > and "man 5 something" come into play? Or rather, the implication that > section 1

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Friday, December 30, 2016 09:46:01 AM rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > On Friday, December 30, 2016 09:24:28 AM Dan Purgert wrote: > > rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > My suggestion is you spend less time discussing it, and get started on > > > writing a few bman pages... > > > > Probably should be

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Friday 30 December 2016 14:46:01 rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > On Friday, December 30, 2016 09:24:28 AM Dan Purgert wrote: > > rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > My suggestion is you spend less time discussing it, and get started on > > > writing a few bman pages... > > > > Probably should be

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Friday, December 30, 2016 09:24:28 AM Dan Purgert wrote: > rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > > My suggestion is you spend less time discussing it, and get started on > > writing a few bman pages... > > Probably should be 'manng' (for 'next generation'), or perhaps mand (to > fit in with systemd) ;)

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Friday, December 30, 2016 06:40:31 AM Lisi Reisz wrote: > On Friday 30 December 2016 01:37:53 Xen wrote: > > You do realize that coding implies hammering on a keyboard too, right? > > No, I do not realise that coding *implies* hammering on a keyboard. Coding > the lazy modern way can be done

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Richard Owlett wrote: > I never used a pin board, but as a junior engineer I helped > create the wire lists to take input (an open/closed contact) from > 1000+ points in power plants and associated distribution system > for presentation in a control room on a Visual Annunciator. > > How the

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 02:24:28PM -, Dan Purgert wrote: > Anyway, isn't this where the differences between say "man something" and > "man 5 something" come into play? Or rather, the implication that > section 1 (or whatever) may only hold a basic overview, and then section > 5 (or whatever)

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > My suggestion is you spend less time discussing it, and get started on > writing a few bman pages... Probably should be 'manng' (for 'next generation'), or perhaps mand (to fit in with systemd) ;) Anyway, isn't this where the differences between say "man something"

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On 12/30/2016 5:40 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 30 December 2016 01:37:53 Xen wrote: You do realize that coding implies hammering on a keyboard too, right? No, I do not realise that coding *implies* hammering on a keyboard. Coding the lazy modern way can be done via a keyboard. But

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Friday 30 December 2016 01:37:53 Xen wrote: > You do realize that coding implies hammering on a keyboard too, right? No, I do not realise that coding *implies* hammering on a keyboard. Coding the lazy modern way can be done via a keyboard. But coding itself most emphatically does not imply

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 8:37 PM, Xen wrote: > > The thread and the responses by Catherine Gramze is one example of that. > She defends bad writing. She comes up with all kinds of excuses as to not > want to explain anything. Saying it is Good to not explain stuff. > > If you

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Friday 30 December 2016 02:23:15 rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > My suggestion is you spend less time discussing it, and get started on > writing a few bman pages... :-)) +1! Lisi

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Friday 30 December 2016 01:37:53 Xen wrote: > Re Lisi: You clearly find wittering on yourself more fun than actually reading what other people have written. You have actually quoted my precise words, then accused me in your paraphrase of having said something completely different. Try

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

There is noting magic about man pages--what I'm trying to say is that, someone could start writing something similar to man pages, with all the detail or introductory / explanatory material you (they) might want. Maybe call them bman (for beginner man) pages? Then a little effort by a

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Catherine Gramze schreef op 29-12-2016 19:47: On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Xen wrote: More importantly the man system or man format does not preclude such documents being written as tutorials so basically it is being done all around. So your assertion here does not

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Re Lisi: "No. The problem here is that the overlap between highly competent technical people (who find tech fun) and people who love writing, and find writing fun, is so small. I personally know one, and he is not a developer. Developers love developing. Writers love writing. Neither

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Xen wrote: > > More importantly the man system or man format does not preclude such > documents being written as tutorials so basically it is being done all > around. > > So your assertion here does not really have a basis in reality I must

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Catherine Gramze schreef op 29-12-2016 19:31: On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Xen wrote: But if you are going to say the purpose of a man page is to be a complete reference guide unto its options, then you will write dirt poor man pages. That is all I can say here ​.

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

Catherine Gramze schreef op 29-12-2016 19:31: On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Xen wrote: But if you are going to say the purpose of a man page is to be a complete reference guide unto its options, then you will write dirt poor man pages. That is all I can say here ​.

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Xen wrote: > But if you are going to say the purpose of a man page is to be a complete > reference guide unto its options, then you will write dirt poor man pages. > That is all I can say here > ​. > ​But that is precisely the original

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:05:48AM +0100, Thomas Schmitt wrote: What lacks to my experience as confused reader and as best effort writer is the user's view on the programs. man pages should document the details and often do sufficiently. But the user looks for solutions, not opportunities.

Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz schreef op 29-12-2016 14:44: [sorry for the late response.] On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:05:48AM +0100, Thomas Schmitt wrote: It is not easy to describe a program with many use cases and even more particular settings and actions. What lacks to my experience as

Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal")

[sorry for the late response.] On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:05:48AM +0100, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > It is not easy to describe a program with many use cases and even > more particular settings and actions. > > What lacks to my experience as confused reader and as best effort writer > is the user's