AW: Ivy - any future or is it also going to be retired?

[jhm]

> I thought Ivy was used extensively by Gradle? I see generated ivy.xml
> files after running a normal Gradle build, so it still seems to be
> important in that space.

I don't know.
But haven't thought to retire Ivy itself.


Jan


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Re: Ivy - any future or is it also going to be retired?

[Matt Sicker]

I thought Ivy was used extensively by Gradle? I see generated ivy.xml files
after running a normal Gradle build, so it still seems to be important in
that space.

On 5 December 2016 at 08:58, Oulds, Jonathan 
wrote:

> We use Ant + Ivy extensively in our build system.  I too have noticed the
> lack of development within the Ivy project which is why I recently
> re-joined the community.
>
> I would be happy to contribute patches and or ideas for future development
> if the project is to continue.
>
> Please bear in mind when considering the future status of Ivy that the
> ideas that have been developed within this project have been adopted by
> others such as Gradle and Artifactory, as such it would be a shame to see
> the end of such an influential project.
>
>
>
> Jonathan Oulds
> Snr. Software Engineer
> McAfee
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jan Matèrne (jhm) [mailto:apa...@materne.de]
> Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 12:47 PM
> To: 'Ant Developers List' 
> Subject: AW: Ivy - any future or is it also going to be retired?
>
> > If you want to push Ivy, you need integrations with IDE.
>
> Yes, I agree. But the problem getting developers to improve IvyDE.
>
>
> > IMHO, IvyDE works well with Eclipse;
>
> IvyDE will be available as it is. We don't delete releases as they are
> archived in the Apache archive.
>
>
> > perhaps its [IvyDE] release cycle needs to be synced with Ivy release
> cycle (which is roughly biannual a this point).
>
> Nice idea - but without enough developers impossible.
>
>
> > Is there a release plan for Ivy, by the way?
>
> No.
>
>
> > When will this  fix be
> released?
>
> Marten has commented "it will be fixed in the next release."
> So first step is getting the change into the code base. 2nd step is
> getting a release out.
>
> I don't know the actual status of #1.
> Currently there is no release planed.
>
>
> > I don't know what a -1 (which is what I would have voted) would do in
> reality.
>
> A '-1' is basically a vote 'against' the suggestion [1]. It must be
> explained so that we could react on the arguments privded. Basically a -1
> could be overriden by enough +1s.
>
> If the decision requires consensus, then its called 'veto' and could not
> be overridden.
> But only the removal of a committer or PMC member requires consesus [2].
>
> [1] http://ant.apache.org/bylaws.html#Voting
> [2] http://ant.apache.org/bylaws.html#Actions
>
>
> > So on one hand I want that project to stay (and hope to be actively
> > developed) and on the other I don't think that's going to be happen even
> if it isn't retired.
>
> Same with us. We don't want to retire subprojects. But have to face the
> facts and get the consequences.
>
>
> > Second, I'm guessing the ivy (and ant) project would very much welcome
> extra hands.
> > So if this project is important to you, and you want a release to happen
> ...
> > why don't you join the effort and help drive it.
>
> Thanks, you're right. ;)
>
>
> > If right now the problem is "there is noone able to create / manage new
> releases"
> > (but some people are still around to watch over the code and fix
> > bugs), maybe someone can step up specifically for the job of release
> manager ...
>
> That's the plan, or the intention ;)
>
>
> > Like I said in my mails, I've tried [contributing].
> > Anyway, here's some previous mails where I tried [1] [2] [3].
> > [1] http://marc.info/?l=ant-dev=143702067424412=2
> > [2] http://marc.info/?l=ant-dev=143765756710466=2
> > [3] http://marc.info/?l=ant-dev=144026083515049=2
>
> Maybe we were sleeping some time. But we are waking up.
> #1 was started on 2015-07-16 and a patch was merged on 2015-08-30.
> #2 was started on 2015-07-23 and last response by Nicolas was that it
> breaks on Windows.
> #3 was started on 2015-08-22 and last answer on 2015-08-30.
>
>
> > Me? I can provide patches and fixes and enhancements for whatever
> > little knowledge I gain by looking at existing code, but my experience
> > with Ivy is just limited to the past few years when I started using it
> as a user.
>
> Experience comes naturally by working with and for Ivy. So creating and
> providing patches further.
> With Ant I started with answering user questions on the user-list. Then
> providing some patches.
>
>
> > there's really nothing to look forward to in terms of roadmap or
> releases or development.
>
> I think the problem is that we lost most of the core developers of Ivy in
> a short timeframe.
> So every development/planning stoped. (Just my personal point of view.)
> Now we are trying to reactivate 'old', aquire 'new' committers and getting
> 'existing'
> (Ant)commmiters be more familiar with the Ivy codebase, so that we could
> do more here.
> (Also my personal point of view.)
>
>
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@ant.apache.org For 

RE: Ivy - any future or is it also going to be retired?

[Oulds, Jonathan]

We use Ant + Ivy extensively in our build system.  I too have noticed the lack 
of development within the Ivy project which is why I recently re-joined the 
community.

I would be happy to contribute patches and or ideas for future development if 
the project is to continue.

Please bear in mind when considering the future status of Ivy that the ideas 
that have been developed within this project have been adopted by others such 
as Gradle and Artifactory, as such it would be a shame to see the end of such 
an influential project.



Jonathan Oulds
Snr. Software Engineer
McAfee


-Original Message-
From: Jan Matèrne (jhm) [mailto:apa...@materne.de] 
Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 12:47 PM
To: 'Ant Developers List' 
Subject: AW: Ivy - any future or is it also going to be retired?

> If you want to push Ivy, you need integrations with IDE. 

Yes, I agree. But the problem getting developers to improve IvyDE.


> IMHO, IvyDE works well with Eclipse;

IvyDE will be available as it is. We don't delete releases as they are archived 
in the Apache archive. 


> perhaps its [IvyDE] release cycle needs to be synced with Ivy release cycle 
> (which is roughly biannual a this point).

Nice idea - but without enough developers impossible. 


> Is there a release plan for Ivy, by the way? 

No.


> When will this  fix be 
> released?

Marten has commented "it will be fixed in the next release."
So first step is getting the change into the code base. 2nd step is getting a 
release out.

I don't know the actual status of #1.
Currently there is no release planed. 


> I don't know what a -1 (which is what I would have voted) would do in 
> reality. 

A '-1' is basically a vote 'against' the suggestion [1]. It must be explained 
so that we could react on the arguments privded. Basically a -1 could be 
overriden by enough +1s.

If the decision requires consensus, then its called 'veto' and could not be 
overridden.
But only the removal of a committer or PMC member requires consesus [2].

[1] http://ant.apache.org/bylaws.html#Voting
[2] http://ant.apache.org/bylaws.html#Actions


> So on one hand I want that project to stay (and hope to be actively 
> developed) and on the other I don't think that's going to be happen even if 
> it isn't retired.

Same with us. We don't want to retire subprojects. But have to face the facts 
and get the consequences.


> Second, I'm guessing the ivy (and ant) project would very much welcome extra 
> hands. 
> So if this project is important to you, and you want a release to happen ...
> why don't you join the effort and help drive it.

Thanks, you're right. ;) 


> If right now the problem is "there is noone able to create / manage new 
> releases" 
> (but some people are still around to watch over the code and fix 
> bugs), maybe someone can step up specifically for the job of release manager 
> ...

That's the plan, or the intention ;)


> Like I said in my mails, I've tried [contributing]. 
> Anyway, here's some previous mails where I tried [1] [2] [3].
> [1] http://marc.info/?l=ant-dev=143702067424412=2
> [2] http://marc.info/?l=ant-dev=143765756710466=2
> [3] http://marc.info/?l=ant-dev=144026083515049=2

Maybe we were sleeping some time. But we are waking up. 
#1 was started on 2015-07-16 and a patch was merged on 2015-08-30.
#2 was started on 2015-07-23 and last response by Nicolas was that it breaks on 
Windows.
#3 was started on 2015-08-22 and last answer on 2015-08-30. 


> Me? I can provide patches and fixes and enhancements for whatever 
> little knowledge I gain by looking at existing code, but my experience 
> with Ivy is just limited to the past few years when I started using it as a 
> user.

Experience comes naturally by working with and for Ivy. So creating and 
providing patches further.  
With Ant I started with answering user questions on the user-list. Then 
providing some patches.


> there's really nothing to look forward to in terms of roadmap or releases or 
> development.

I think the problem is that we lost most of the core developers of Ivy in a 
short timeframe.
So every development/planning stoped. (Just my personal point of view.) Now we 
are trying to reactivate 'old', aquire 'new' committers and getting 'existing' 
(Ant)commmiters be more familiar with the Ivy codebase, so that we could do 
more here.
(Also my personal point of view.)



Jan 
  




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AW: Ivy - any future or is it also going to be retired?

[jhm]

> If you want to push Ivy, you need integrations with IDE. 

Yes, I agree. But the problem getting developers to improve IvyDE.


> IMHO, IvyDE works well with Eclipse; 

IvyDE will be available as it is. We don't delete releases as they are archived 
in the Apache archive. 


> perhaps its [IvyDE] release cycle needs to be synced with Ivy release cycle 
> (which is roughly biannual a this point).

Nice idea - but without enough developers impossible. 


> Is there a release plan for Ivy, by the way? 

No.


> When will this  fix be 
> released?

Marten has commented "it will be fixed in the next release."
So first step is getting the change into the code base. 2nd step is getting a 
release out.

I don't know the actual status of #1.
Currently there is no release planed. 


> I don't know what a -1 (which is what I would have voted) would do in 
> reality. 

A '-1' is basically a vote 'against' the suggestion [1]. It must be explained 
so that
we could react on the arguments privded. Basically a -1 could be overriden by 
enough +1s.

If the decision requires consensus, then its called 'veto' and could not be 
overridden.
But only the removal of a committer or PMC member requires consesus [2].

[1] http://ant.apache.org/bylaws.html#Voting
[2] http://ant.apache.org/bylaws.html#Actions


> So on one hand I want that project to stay (and hope to be actively 
> developed) and on 
> the other I don't think that's going to be happen even if it isn't retired.

Same with us. We don't want to retire subprojects. But have to face the facts 
and get the consequences.


> Second, I'm guessing the ivy (and ant) project would very much welcome extra 
> hands. 
> So if this project is important to you, and you want a release to happen ...
> why don't you join the effort and help drive it.

Thanks, you're right. ;) 


> If right now the problem is "there is noone able to create / manage new 
> releases" 
> (but some people are still around to watch over the code and fix bugs), maybe 
> someone can step up specifically for the job of release manager ...

That's the plan, or the intention ;)


> Like I said in my mails, I've tried [contributing]. 
> Anyway, here's some previous mails where I tried [1] [2] [3].
> [1] http://marc.info/?l=ant-dev=143702067424412=2
> [2] http://marc.info/?l=ant-dev=143765756710466=2
> [3] http://marc.info/?l=ant-dev=144026083515049=2

Maybe we were sleeping some time. But we are waking up. 
#1 was started on 2015-07-16 and a patch was merged on 2015-08-30.
#2 was started on 2015-07-23 and last response by Nicolas was that it breaks on 
Windows.
#3 was started on 2015-08-22 and last answer on 2015-08-30. 


> Me? I can provide patches and fixes and enhancements for whatever little 
> knowledge I 
> gain by looking at existing code, but my experience with Ivy is just limited 
> to the 
> past few years when I started using it as a user.

Experience comes naturally by working with and for Ivy. So creating and 
providing patches
further.  
With Ant I started with answering user questions on the user-list. Then 
providing some patches.


> there's really nothing to look forward to in terms of roadmap or releases or 
> development.

I think the problem is that we lost most of the core developers of Ivy in a 
short timeframe.
So every development/planning stoped. (Just my personal point of view.)
Now we are trying to reactivate 'old', aquire 'new' committers and getting 
'existing' 
(Ant)commmiters be more familiar with the Ivy codebase, so that we could do 
more here.
(Also my personal point of view.)



Jan 
  




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Re: Ivy - any future or is it also going to be retired?

[Jaikiran Pai]

On Monday 05 December 2016 04:17 PM, Johan Corveleyn wrote:

An innocent bystander's opinion (I'm not an ivy / ant developer, but
I'm active in the Apache Subversion community): First of all, this is
a volunteer-driven open source project.

I completely understand.


  You're entirely free to use it
or to use something else ... no hard feelings. Second, I'm guessing
the ivy (and ant) project would very much welcome extra hands. So if
this project is important to you, and you want a release to happen ...
why don't you join the effort and help drive it. IMHO, if serious
projects need it, they should also put in serious time, and start
scratching some of their own itches (and, you know, become a
substantial part of the active community you're asking for here).
Like I said in my mails, I've tried. Anyway, here's some previous mails 
where I tried [1] [2] [3].




If right now the problem is "there is noone able to create / manage
new releases" (but some people are still around to watch over the code
and fix bugs), maybe someone can step up specifically for the job of
release manager ...
It's not just that - it's one thing assigning some release manager and 
another to have someone/team who knows the in and outs of the project 
and has a vision for that project and makes relevant design decisions. 
Me? I can provide patches and fixes and enhancements for whatever little 
knowledge I gain by looking at existing code, but my experience with Ivy 
is just limited to the past few years when I started using it as a user.


Overall, I think my concern is not about why there's no activity in Ivy 
project but the fact that it's being advertised as a project which has a 
future, but as someone who's using/trying to use it, there's really 
nothing to look forward to in terms of roadmap or releases or development.



[1] http://marc.info/?l=ant-dev=143702067424412=2
[2] http://marc.info/?l=ant-dev=143765756710466=2
[3] http://marc.info/?l=ant-dev=144026083515049=2

-Jaikiran



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Re: Ivy - any future or is it also going to be retired?

[Johan Corveleyn]

On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Jaikiran Pai  wrote:
>
>
> On Monday 05 December 2016 03:26 PM, Gintautas Grigelionis wrote:
>>
>> If you want to push Ivy, you need integrations with IDE.
>
>
> +1
>
> I haven't voted in that mail about retiring IvyDE because I don't know what
> a -1 (which is what I would have voted) would do in reality. As noted in
> that other voting thread, the last release was in 2013 and last real code
> was in 2014. So on one hand I want that project to stay (and hope to be
> actively developed) and on the other I don't think that's going to be happen
> even if it isn't retired.
>
>
> Overall, IMO, if Ivy project itself needs to be used in serious projects,
> there needs to be an active community and usable ecosystem around it, headed
> by developers who are able to invest time and interest in it.

An innocent bystander's opinion (I'm not an ivy / ant developer, but
I'm active in the Apache Subversion community): First of all, this is
a volunteer-driven open source project. You're entirely free to use it
or to use something else ... no hard feelings. Second, I'm guessing
the ivy (and ant) project would very much welcome extra hands. So if
this project is important to you, and you want a release to happen ...
why don't you join the effort and help drive it. IMHO, if serious
projects need it, they should also put in serious time, and start
scratching some of their own itches (and, you know, become a
substantial part of the active community you're asking for here).

If right now the problem is "there is noone able to create / manage
new releases" (but some people are still around to watch over the code
and fix bugs), maybe someone can step up specifically for the job of
release manager ...


-- 
Johan

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Re: Ivy - any future or is it also going to be retired?

[Jaikiran Pai]

On Monday 05 December 2016 03:26 PM, Gintautas Grigelionis wrote:

If you want to push Ivy, you need integrations with IDE.


+1

I haven't voted in that mail about retiring IvyDE because I don't know 
what a -1 (which is what I would have voted) would do in reality. As 
noted in that other voting thread, the last release was in 2013 and last 
real code was in 2014. So on one hand I want that project to stay (and 
hope to be actively developed) and on the other I don't think that's 
going to be happen even if it isn't retired.



Overall, IMO, if Ivy project itself needs to be used in serious 
projects, there needs to be an active community and usable ecosystem 
around it, headed by developers who are able to invest time and interest 
in it.


-Jaikiran



IMHO, IvyDE works
well with Eclipse;
perhaps its release cycle needs to be synced with Ivy release cycle (which
is roughly biannual a this point).
Is there a release plan for Ivy, by the way? When will this
 fix be released?

Gintas

2016-12-05 8:55 GMT+01:00 Jan Matèrne (jhm) :


We see Ivy as a widely used component. We use archiving some components to
recalibrate our focus.
I don't think that we want to archive Ivy in the near future. Instead we
try to push Ivy.

If you want to help with Ivy, you're welcome.

"It's already a challenge to stick with Ivy build system itself given the
lack of fixes/releases/responses."
What are the problems you think are resolved with new Ivy releases?


Jan




-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Jaikiran Pai [mailto:jai.forums2...@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Montag, 5. Dezember 2016 08:26
An: dev@ant.apache.org
Betreff: Ivy - any future or is it also going to be retired?

I have been following the latest emails on retiring sub projects in
Ant.
I just see a proposal to retire IvyDE (the Eclipse plugin) for valid
reasons (given the lack of any real activity in there). Given this, I
would like to understand what the future of Ivy project itself is. I
have asked this more than once previously in the dev mailing list
during the past year or so and any efforts in reviving the project,
which IMO has seen no real activity. I have even tried contacting some
of the dev team members to try and see if I can help in any way to keep
it active.
But unfortunately, that hasn't generated any kind of changes. There's
been no real code changes, bug fixes or any consistent
help/communication when it comes to user issues.

I would like to see some official word on what the future is for Ivy
itself. Is it going to be retired too? Seeing that IvyDE itself is
being proposed for retirement and the only other IDE plugin is a
IntelliJ one (that I know of), asking (some of our internal users) to
continue using Ivy is going to be challenge. It's already a challenge
to stick with Ivy build system itself given the lack of
fixes/releases/responses. If there's an official word on where it
stands in terms of projects goals, we can officially move to a
different build system.

-Jaikiran

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Re: AW: Ivy - any future or is it also going to be retired?

[Jaikiran Pai]

On Monday 05 December 2016 01:25 PM, Jan Matèrne (jhm) wrote:

We see Ivy as a widely used component. We use archiving some components to 
recalibrate our focus.
I don't think that we want to archive Ivy in the near future. Instead we try to 
push Ivy.

If you want to help with Ivy, you're welcome.
I have tried more than once (in this very own mailing list), but without 
someone who "owns" the project and has the time and dedication to 
develop and release the project, the questions/efforts have gone no where.



"It's already a challenge to stick with Ivy build system itself given the lack of 
fixes/releases/responses."
What are the problems you think are resolved with new Ivy releases?
Right now I don't have specific bugs that are open that impact me or the 
project I use. I do have some enhancements that I would like to be done. 
But the real issue I have with the Ivy project is, its development has 
practically gone stagnant. I have been watching the JIRA reports (there 
are some open issue for over a year which are big ones) and have been 
watching the mailing list and based on that, my opinion is that Ivy is 
no longer being developed. When there's no community around a project 
and the fact that there have been no releases (last one was 2 years back 
http://ant.apache.org/ivy/history/2.4.0/release-notes.html) for a while 
or any indication that there will be one anytime, it's hard to 
rationalize using that project (as critical as a build system).


I can understand that projects have a lifetime and it's reasonable to 
expect that after a certain period it may no longer be feasible to put 
in efforts into it. I don't know if that's the case with Ivy. But every 
time I ask about the roadmap/future, the answer seems to suggest that it 
does have a future. However, with more than a year since I last asked 
this question (in this mailing list) and with no real development or 
releases during that period, I don't believe that's the case.


-Jaikiran



Jan




-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Jaikiran Pai [mailto:jai.forums2...@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Montag, 5. Dezember 2016 08:26
An: dev@ant.apache.org
Betreff: Ivy - any future or is it also going to be retired?

I have been following the latest emails on retiring sub projects in
Ant.
I just see a proposal to retire IvyDE (the Eclipse plugin) for valid
reasons (given the lack of any real activity in there). Given this, I
would like to understand what the future of Ivy project itself is. I
have asked this more than once previously in the dev mailing list
during the past year or so and any efforts in reviving the project,
which IMO has seen no real activity. I have even tried contacting some
of the dev team members to try and see if I can help in any way to keep
it active.
But unfortunately, that hasn't generated any kind of changes. There's
been no real code changes, bug fixes or any consistent
help/communication when it comes to user issues.

I would like to see some official word on what the future is for Ivy
itself. Is it going to be retired too? Seeing that IvyDE itself is
being proposed for retirement and the only other IDE plugin is a
IntelliJ one (that I know of), asking (some of our internal users) to
continue using Ivy is going to be challenge. It's already a challenge
to stick with Ivy build system itself given the lack of
fixes/releases/responses. If there's an official word on where it
stands in terms of projects goals, we can officially move to a
different build system.

-Jaikiran

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@ant.apache.org For additional
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Re: Ivy - any future or is it also going to be retired?

[Gintautas Grigelionis]

If you want to push Ivy, you need integrations with IDE. IMHO, IvyDE works
well with Eclipse;
perhaps its release cycle needs to be synced with Ivy release cycle (which
is roughly biannual a this point).
Is there a release plan for Ivy, by the way? When will this
 fix be released?

Gintas

2016-12-05 8:55 GMT+01:00 Jan Matèrne (jhm) :

> We see Ivy as a widely used component. We use archiving some components to
> recalibrate our focus.
> I don't think that we want to archive Ivy in the near future. Instead we
> try to push Ivy.
>
> If you want to help with Ivy, you're welcome.
>
> "It's already a challenge to stick with Ivy build system itself given the
> lack of fixes/releases/responses."
> What are the problems you think are resolved with new Ivy releases?
>
>
> Jan
>
>
>
> > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> > Von: Jaikiran Pai [mailto:jai.forums2...@gmail.com]
> > Gesendet: Montag, 5. Dezember 2016 08:26
> > An: dev@ant.apache.org
> > Betreff: Ivy - any future or is it also going to be retired?
> >
> > I have been following the latest emails on retiring sub projects in
> > Ant.
> > I just see a proposal to retire IvyDE (the Eclipse plugin) for valid
> > reasons (given the lack of any real activity in there). Given this, I
> > would like to understand what the future of Ivy project itself is. I
> > have asked this more than once previously in the dev mailing list
> > during the past year or so and any efforts in reviving the project,
> > which IMO has seen no real activity. I have even tried contacting some
> > of the dev team members to try and see if I can help in any way to keep
> > it active.
> > But unfortunately, that hasn't generated any kind of changes. There's
> > been no real code changes, bug fixes or any consistent
> > help/communication when it comes to user issues.
> >
> > I would like to see some official word on what the future is for Ivy
> > itself. Is it going to be retired too? Seeing that IvyDE itself is
> > being proposed for retirement and the only other IDE plugin is a
> > IntelliJ one (that I know of), asking (some of our internal users) to
> > continue using Ivy is going to be challenge. It's already a challenge
> > to stick with Ivy build system itself given the lack of
> > fixes/releases/responses. If there's an official word on where it
> > stands in terms of projects goals, we can officially move to a
> > different build system.
> >
> > -Jaikiran
> >
> > -
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