Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
If it is gpl stuff only, in a word: yes. On Monday 29 December 2003 10:04 am, Jaap van Hemert wrote: Hi, Your E Sale (http://youresale.com/) sels/ships four types of YES servers based on e-smith distro without any reference. Is that alowed to put your own brand to it? Jaap -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
Unless they have modified gpl sourcecode, at which point they are obligated (i think..) to release their changes/improvements back to the world. Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it is gpl stuff only, in a word: yes. On Monday 29 December 2003 10:04 am, Jaap van Hemert wrote: Hi, Your E Sale (http://youresale.com/) sels/ships four types of YES servers based on e-smith distro without any reference. Is that alowed to put your own brand to it? Jaap -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it is gpl stuff only, in a word: yes. On Monday 29 December 2003 10:04 am, Jaap van Hemert wrote: Hi, Your E Sale (http://youresale.com/) sels/ships four types of YES servers based on e-smith distro without any reference. Is that alowed to put your own brand to it? Jaap -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Charlie Brady [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mitel Networks Corporation http://www.mitel.com/ Phone: +1 (613) 592 5660 or 592 2122 Fax: +1 (613) 592 1175 A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right. Q: Why should i start my reply below the quoted text? -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
On Mon, 2003-12-29 at 10:04, Jaap van Hemert wrote: Hi, Your E Sale (http://youresale.com/) sels/ships four types of YES servers based on e-smith distro without any reference. Wow... I thought Mitel's Partnership program was expensive for a MaPs (to use the ESALE term for Mom and Pop shop) consultant... Check this out... For only $12,000.00 per year and $50.00 per sale andf $50.00 per installation, you, too, can become a ESALE partner. Their base $99.95 product would net you a negative $0.05 per install, plus a $1000.00 a month fee. http://youresale.com/services/#yea This guy appears to be somewhat uneducated as to the potential of Open-Source. I may be wrong here, of course. Maybe his exclusive source code is absolute dynamite. John C. -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
As to the distribution in question, one would need to examine the software in more detail to verify compliance with the GPL. As you can see here: http://youresale.com/products/yes_license_agreement.php they 1) inform their customers that the GPL applies to some included software components and 2) assert licensing restrictions which are incompatible with the GPL on the product as a whole. IANAL, so I won't comment on the legality of their operation (Mitel's lawters can ponder that question). As a free software developer, I can say that their operation does not comply with the spirit of free software development - they are attempting to limit distribution of the software to genuine MaPs (Mom and Pop Store), and they are sharing none of their own developments/modifications with you and me. I am guilty of this - wholesale. SW Corporate products use GPL components and don't breach the GPL but its a fine line. It really is. SmoothWall corporate products take GPL code and make it proprietary. IF you had to do an audit you'd find breaches now but its also an equation. Corporate paying products fund GPL activities and the same for any company using GPL code or OSI licenced code. Charlie is exactly right. -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003, Richard Morrell wrote: I am guilty of this - wholesale. That's an interesting public admission. SW Corporate products use GPL components and don't breach the GPL but its a fine line. It really is. SmoothWall corporate products take GPL code and make it proprietary. For any code for which SmoothWall holds the copyright, the fact that versions exist which are GPL is neither here not there. Smoothwall has the right to use its code as it wishes (whether contributions are its code is another question altogether). For code which SmoothWall uses under the GPL, SmoothWall cannot (legally) make it proprietary. IF you had to do an audit you'd find breaches now but its also an equation. Corporate paying products fund GPL activities and the same for any company using GPL code or OSI licenced code. I don't see the distribution in question funding any GPL activity. Charlie is exactly right. :-) -- Charlie Brady [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mitel Networks Corporation http://www.mitel.com/ Phone: +1 (613) 592 5660 or 592 2122 Fax: +1 (613) 592 1175 A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right. Q: Why should i start my reply below the quoted text? -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
Charlie Brady wrote: On Mon, 29 Dec 2003, Richard Morrell wrote: I am guilty of this - wholesale. That's an interesting public admission. Thats why I made it, its not an admission - SW doesn't breach the GPL, what it does do is not clearly make available modifications. What it should do is have a CVS for GPL bits that are auditable. What made me uneasy was the fact that there are issues in any GPL based application where there are grey areas of code touching code under seperate licencing issues. It is not enough for SuSE, or SW or any Linux co saying that they will backport after time mods where the line between OSI code and a minimal 5 line modification makes that proprietary. Unfortunately it doesn't matter. The GNU GPL is for us to self police. The reality is that Brad, Richard and the team at FSF have no funds to police. Their organisation is very poor and its purely down to the support of the community and the need for us as individuals to hold it in reverence that the whole thing doesn't fall apart. There are three companies I know of breaching the GPL in major fashion who have ignored wholesale requests for compliance because they see a letter from the FSF legal people as less threatening than a demand to pay from the company who ship their bottled office water. A paper tiger only has so much muscle. Self policing and respect for peer review and common sense and seeing how OSI approved licences aid our own growth is all thats needed. Basing revenue is easy once you have a platform. Dick -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
On Monday 29 December 2003 12:50 pm, Charlie Brady wrote: On Mon, 29 Dec 2003, John Cusick wrote: Were you about to make a comment, or was this a subtle comment on the excessive top-posting and lack of cleaning up previous messages? :-) Sorry, my mistake. I was going to make a comment, but coffee arrived, and I hit the wrong button. Just a quick comment to point out I was rather roundly trounced and then asked to not discuss this anymore on this dev-list the very last time such a topic came up. I guess it is who makes a comment more than what is being said that matters here. Sigh. Bob Finch Back to the topic: As to what is allowed and not allowed, I would re-iterate that people should read the licenses which they are given, and if in doubt, consult a lawyer. As to the distribution in question, one would need to examine the software in more detail to verify compliance with the GPL. As you can see here: http://youresale.com/products/yes_license_agreement.php they 1) inform their customers that the GPL applies to some included software components and 2) assert licensing restrictions which are incompatible with the GPL on the product as a whole. IANAL, so I won't comment on the legality of their operation (Mitel's lawters can ponder that question). As a free software developer, I can say that their operation does not comply with the spirit of free software development - they are attempting to limit distribution of the software to genuine MaPs (Mom and Pop Store), and they are sharing none of their own developments/modifications with you and me. -- Charlie Brady [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mitel Networks Corporation http://www.mitel.com/ Phone: +1 (613) 592 5660 or 592 2122 Fax: +1 (613) 592 1175 A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right. Q: Why should i start my reply below the quoted text? -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
Just a quick comment to point out I was rather roundly trounced and then asked to not discuss this anymore on this dev-list the very last time such a topic came up. I guess it is who makes a comment more than what is being said that matters here. Sigh. Bob Finch Freedom of speech is something our fathers and grandfathers fought for the right to use. Walk quietly - carry a big stick -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
At 11:48 AM 12/29/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, my mistake. I was going to make a comment, but coffee arrived, and I hit the wrong button. Just a quick comment to point out I was rather roundly trounced and then asked to not discuss this anymore on this dev-list the very last time such a topic came up. I guess it is who makes a comment more than what is being said that matters here. Sigh. No Bob. It was entirely what you were saying. The Mitel people on this list answered your multiple email messages on that thread the best they could and to considerable length. They said that they believe Mitel to be in complete compliance with GPL. They also requested that if you have further questions about GPL compliance to contact the Mitel legal staff. This should have been the end of the thread, but you would not let it drop. The odds of SME 6.0 unsupported's survival will be vastly improved if the Mitel people decide to stick around and help us over the rough parts. There is no obligation for them to do so. Whether or not they choose to participate will in part be determined by how they are treated. Your pressing this issue was at best not polite. At worst it was threatening the survival of SME 6.0 Unsupported by alienating the people who are most knowledgeable about its internal structure. As such I thought that thread should end. -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
RE: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
Sorry for posting this topic, I'm rather new in this list and was only expecting a yes or no. Just from a user perspective SW and esmith are both great products with their pro's and con's. Without knowing anything of GPL, MaPs, OSI, ect... my gutfeeling says it's not right to do so. But I could be wrong. Thanks for the answer(s) Jaap -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Mike Sensney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: maandag 29 december 2003 23:33 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed? At 11:48 AM 12/29/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, my mistake. I was going to make a comment, but coffee arrived, and I hit the wrong button. Just a quick comment to point out I was rather roundly trounced and then asked to not discuss this anymore on this dev-list the very last time such a topic came up. I guess it is who makes a comment more than what is being said that matters here. Sigh. No Bob. It was entirely what you were saying. The Mitel people on this list answered your multiple email messages on that thread the best they could and to considerable length. They said that they believe Mitel to be in complete compliance with GPL. They also requested that if you have further questions about GPL compliance to contact the Mitel legal staff. This should have been the end of the thread, but you would not let it drop. The odds of SME 6.0 unsupported's survival will be vastly improved if the Mitel people decide to stick around and help us over the rough parts. There is no obligation for them to do so. Whether or not they choose to participate will in part be determined by how they are treated. Your pressing this issue was at best not polite. At worst it was threatening the survival of SME 6.0 Unsupported by alienating the people who are most knowledgeable about its internal structure. As such I thought that thread should end. -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
On Monday 29 December 2003 05:32 pm, Mike Sensney wrote: At 11:48 AM 12/29/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, my mistake. I was going to make a comment, but coffee arrived, and I hit the wrong button. Just a quick comment to point out I was rather roundly trounced and then asked to not discuss this anymore on this dev-list the very last time such a topic came up. I guess it is who makes a comment more than what is being said that matters here. Sigh. No Bob. It was entirely what you were saying. The Mitel people on this list answered your multiple email messages on that thread the best they could and to considerable length. They said that they believe Mitel to be in complete compliance with GPL. They also requested that if you have further questions about GPL compliance to contact the Mitel legal staff. This should have been the end of the thread, but you would not let it drop. I was asked questions, which I took the time to answer. Nothing more. I asked some questions which Mitel took the time to answer. Nothing more. As for whatever Mitel employees told me about how they had complied with GPL, they are welcome to that opinion and they are certainly welcome to tell me whatever makes them happy. - That is their right and I will fight for them to have it. I certainly welcomed it, but the fact that they said it was of their own doing, not mine. The odds of SME 6.0 unsupported's survival will be vastly improved if the Mitel people decide to stick around and help us over the rough parts. There is no obligation for them to do so. Whether or not they choose to participate will in part be determined by how they are treated. Your pressing this issue was at best not polite. At worst it was threatening the survival of SME 6.0 Unsupported by alienating the people who are most knowledgeable about its internal structure. This is nothing more than silver coated bull droppings. There is NOTHING released that requires or is significantly enhanced by said people once the material is turned over. And NOTHING I did would have prevented the material from being turned over. Remember almost all of the development efforts by employees of Mitel, since esmith was bought by Mitel, have been in packages that are NOT being placed into SME6, as these packages are NOT being released under GPL and SME6 will ONLY be GPL. Your paragraph above leaves exactly the opposite impression. As such it is specious. As such I thought that thread should end. Exactly what I was referring to. Thank you for making my point. It *IS* who(m) is talking. Very best regards; Bob Finch -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
On Tuesday 30 December 2003 02:35, Brian Luerssen wrote: Unless they have modified gpl sourcecode, at which point they are obligated (i think..) to release their changes/improvements back to the world. To the best of my knowledge (IANAL), if the source is distributed with the product at the time, the source code only has to be made available to the recipients of the GPLed binairies in question. They (the recipients) of course are free to make such source available to 'the world' at large - the GPL gives them that right. It is generally considered good form for the person/company releasing the binaries to make the code available to 'the world' at large via the internet, but section 3 of the GPL does *not* explicity require this. Read section 3 of the GPL for further details. :-) As many have noticed, it is also common practice to create and distribute a 'system' Foo, based on program A (released under the GPL) and program B (release under a propriatary license). This then creates a system that cannot be redistributed as a whole, although certain components can. Mitel does this with SME, and SmoothWall does this. So do quite a few Linux distro's. This is presumable what Richard Morrell meant when he said SmoothWall corporate products take GPL code and make it proprietary, since the literal intepretation of that sentance is clearly false. A 'fine line' can occur since it is not always clear at what point program B becomes a derived work of program A, and thus ceases to be proprietary and instead falls under the GPL. The point is that there is nothing in the GPL the prohibits the creation of proprietary systems based on GPLed components in this way, although some care does need to be taken, due to (occasionally) fuzzy nature of deciding when something is a 'derived work'. Personally, I think the SME team at Mitel have gone to great lenghts to comply both with the black-letter requirements of the GPL, and its spirit. That being said, I am even happier that E-Smith is now being passed over to the development community at large. Cheers, Rasjid. -- Rasjid Wilcox Canberra, Australia (UTC +10 hrs) http://www.openminddev.net -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
IF you are looking for another product that works well and is VERY similar to the above products you could look into clark-connect. It is rock solid AND comforms to GPL completely. Bob, I like what Clark Connect and their CEO stand for, he's a great guy who I respect a lot, however the product isn't rock solid. Go install 2.0 (paid for version). Run Nessus against it, go look at versions of Squid, Spam Asssassin and particularly Squirrelmail, PHP and other services. Then post its rock solid. It shows great great thought, great APT updater, brilliantly designed commerce interface and re-billing, good conceptual awareness of how it should work. Installer is dated but functional (would be a quick rewrite). It doesn't handle Samba permissions well, or the intelligent hosting of domains in a way that would be simple to modify. I'm not here to knock anyone but please don't compare it to SME, SME is an engineered product that is a SUV compared to ClarkConnects small family sports hatchback. Both well thought out but you're not comparing apples and apples. Richard -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
IF you are looking for another product that works well and is VERY similar to the above products you could look into clark-connect. It is rock solid AND comforms to GPL completely. This sounds like you still do not agree / believe / feel that Mitel unsupported developers release is GPL compliant. If you want to continue to discuss your opinion with others I would suggest that the general discussion forum is a more appropriate place for that with a broader audience. The initiating author is already satisfied and expressed his gratitude for all the feedback. Hsing-Foo -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
RE: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
You where the first, and the first with an answer I was looking for. Thanks for the answer and advice. Jaap (PE1RHB) -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: dinsdag 30 december 2003 0:57 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed? On Monday 29 December 2003 06:29 pm, Jaap van Hemert wrote: Sorry for posting this topic, I'm rather new in this list and was only expecting a yes or no. Well the answer to your orginal question is : yes. Some others illuminated on this I suppose, I wasn't one of them. as I answered in one sentence. Just from a user perspective SW and esmith are both great products with their pro's and con's. Without knowing anything of GPL, MaPs, OSI, ect... my gutfeeling says it's not right to do so. But I could be wrong. If you are suggesting that sometimes companies do the wrong thing; yeah I agree. IF you are looking for another product that works well and is VERY similar to the above products you could look into clark-connect. It is rock solid AND comforms to GPL completely. Perhaps that isn't much of an answer on the surface, but if you probe it a bit, it should tell you what you need to know. Very best regards; Bob Finch Thanks for the answer(s) Jaap -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Mike Sensney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: maandag 29 december 2003 23:33 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed? At 11:48 AM 12/29/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, my mistake. I was going to make a comment, but coffee arrived, and I hit the wrong button. Just a quick comment to point out I was rather roundly trounced and then asked to not discuss this anymore on this dev-list the very last time such a topic came up. I guess it is who makes a comment more than what is being said that matters here. Sigh. No Bob. It was entirely what you were saying. The Mitel people on this list answered your multiple email messages on that thread the best they could and to considerable length. They said that they believe Mitel to be in complete compliance with GPL. They also requested that if you have further questions about GPL compliance to contact the Mitel legal staff. This should have been the end of the thread, but you would not let it drop. The odds of SME 6.0 unsupported's survival will be vastly improved if the Mitel people decide to stick around and help us over the rough parts. There is no obligation for them to do so. Whether or not they choose to participate will in part be determined by how they are treated. Your pressing this issue was at best not polite. At worst it was threatening the survival of SME 6.0 Unsupported by alienating the people who are most knowledgeable about its internal structure. As such I thought that thread should end. -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
On Monday 29 December 2003 07:02 pm, Richard Morrell wrote: IF you are looking for another product that works well and is VERY similar to the above products you could look into clark-connect. It is rock solid AND comforms to GPL completely. Bob, I like what Clark Connect and their CEO stand for, he's a great guy who I respect a lot, however the product isn't rock solid. Go install 2.0 (paid for version). Run Nessus against it, go look at versions of Squid, Spam Asssassin and particularly Squirrelmail, PHP and other services. Then post its rock solid. Hey Ricard; Thanxs for the very polite reply. Well I was referring to 2.1 which has been out for almost a month now. It is a good product and seems very solid to me. YMMV of course. I agree that 2.0 was less than stellar, but the clark staff also was quick to point out that it was an interim, sorta test release. I think ALL distributions have some releases that are less than others. Not sure about the Nessus tests per say, so I have no reason to doubt what you say. It shows great great thought, great APT updater, brilliantly designed commerce interface and re-billing, good conceptual awareness of how it should work. Installer is dated but functional (would be a quick rewrite). It doesn't handle Samba permissions well, or the intelligent hosting of domains in a way that would be simple to modify. Well intelligent people speaking intelligently can disagree with this. I don't have a problem in this area per say, but I can definitely see what you are referring to. Samba works fine here with clark-connect, including permissions, so I guess I am not sure what you are referring to on that particular item. I also host domains with it and find it essentially fine, no problemos. I'm not here to knock anyone but please don't compare it to SME, SME is an engineered product that is a SUV compared to ClarkConnects small family sports hatchback. Both well thought out but you're not comparing apples and apples. Well Mitel's proprietary product is very good. SME is good too, but a lesser product in many respects. AS such, I was comparing to it; well sorta comparing it SME specifically by saying it was similar. For many folks it is all the similarity they need or want and then becomes VERY similar. Perhaps I should have been more specific. Thanxs for the heads up. Hey and thanxs Richard for not lambasting me for having an opinion that is not exactly as yours. Nice to see that on this list for a change. Very best regards; Bob Finch Richard -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
Hey Ricard; Thanxs for the very polite reply. Well I was referring to 2.1 which has been out for almost a month now. It is a good product and seems very solid to me. YMMV of course. I agree that 2.0 was less than stellar, but the clark staff also was quick to point out that it was an interim, sorta test release. I think ALL distributions have some releases that are less than others. Not sure about the Nessus tests per say, so I have no reason to doubt what you say. Bob I will put my hands up - I didn't know there was 2.1 - I use 2.0 which I have in the test lab - let me go upgrade and have a play right now. 2.0 was promising but poor because of lack of thought. Well intelligent people speaking intelligently can disagree with this. I don't have a problem in this area per say, but I can definitely see what you are referring to. Samba works fine here with clark-connect, including permissions, so I guess I am not sure what you are referring to on that particular item. I also host domains with it and find it essentially fine, no problemos. I'm not here to knock anyone but please don't compare it to SME, SME is an engineered product that is a SUV compared to ClarkConnects small family sports hatchback. Both well thought out but you're not comparing apples and apples. Hey and thanxs Richard for not lambasting me for having an opinion that is not exactly as yours. Nice to see that on this list for a change. Thanks for the compliment, don't thank me thank Jeff Coleman, he's been somewhat of an inspiration to work with not only on this project but also on commercial stuff we're working on outside of SME. I have spent 4 yrs being lambasted a lot worse than you dude. However Jeff is a really nice guy who calls me on the phone 9000 miles when he knows I'm about to tear someones head off and tells me to think before pressing send. He makes a very impressive project leader for the next few months ahead - if I can help by getting SME the coverage publically that I can lever you guys in the Press then all well and good. Too many people on this list think I'm some one trick pony and forget that I've been paid to work on Linux projects for almost seven years and SW wasnt some flash in the pan - it was hard work. Dick -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
On Monday 29 December 2003 07:05 pm, you wrote: IF you are looking for another product that works well and is VERY similar to the above products you could look into clark-connect. It is rock solid AND comforms to GPL completely. This sounds like you still do not agree / believe / feel that Mitel unsupported developers release is GPL compliant. If you want to continue to discuss your opinion with others I would suggest that the general discussion forum is a more appropriate place for that with a broader audience. I *never* said that. Others said I said that, I did not. Period. Like the new person that asked a simple question to start this thread, I *long ago* asked a simple question about *what specific items* would be included in the SME release, since it was going to be a GPL release. The discussion then went elsewhere, spurred on by comments like those you saw earlier in this discussion BY MITEL EMPLOYEES. The comments were well meaning I suppose but none the less were off target related to the question asked. JUST LIKE IN THIS THREAD. And once again this is too rediculous to continue. Bob The initiating author is already satisfied and expressed his gratitude for all the feedback. Hsing-Foo -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
On Monday 29 December 2003 07:07 pm, Jaap van Hemert wrote: You where the first, and the first with an answer I was looking for. Thanks for the answer and advice. No problemo with either. My pleasure. And the best of luck with whatever you decide to do. Very best regards; Bob Finch Jaap (PE1RHB) -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: dinsdag 30 december 2003 0:57 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed? On Monday 29 December 2003 06:29 pm, Jaap van Hemert wrote: Sorry for posting this topic, I'm rather new in this list and was only expecting a yes or no. Well the answer to your orginal question is : yes. Some others illuminated on this I suppose, I wasn't one of them. as I answered in one sentence. Just from a user perspective SW and esmith are both great products with their pro's and con's. Without knowing anything of GPL, MaPs, OSI, ect... my gutfeeling says it's not right to do so. But I could be wrong. If you are suggesting that sometimes companies do the wrong thing; yeah I agree. IF you are looking for another product that works well and is VERY similar to the above products you could look into clark-connect. It is rock solid AND comforms to GPL completely. Perhaps that isn't much of an answer on the surface, but if you probe it a bit, it should tell you what you need to know. Very best regards; Bob Finch Thanks for the answer(s) Jaap -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Mike Sensney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: maandag 29 december 2003 23:33 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed? At 11:48 AM 12/29/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, my mistake. I was going to make a comment, but coffee arrived, and I hit the wrong button. Just a quick comment to point out I was rather roundly trounced and then asked to not discuss this anymore on this dev-list the very last time such a topic came up. I guess it is who makes a comment more than what is being said that matters here. Sigh. No Bob. It was entirely what you were saying. The Mitel people on this list answered your multiple email messages on that thread the best they could and to considerable length. They said that they believe Mitel to be in complete compliance with GPL. They also requested that if you have further questions about GPL compliance to contact the Mitel legal staff. This should have been the end of the thread, but you would not let it drop. The odds of SME 6.0 unsupported's survival will be vastly improved if the Mitel people decide to stick around and help us over the rough parts. There is no obligation for them to do so. Whether or not they choose to participate will in part be determined by how they are treated. Your pressing this issue was at best not polite. At worst it was threatening the survival of SME 6.0 Unsupported by alienating the people who are most knowledgeable about its internal structure. As such I thought that thread should end. -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 29 December 2003 07:05 pm, you wrote: IF you are looking for another product that works well and is VERY similar to the above products you could look into clark-connect. It is rock solid AND comforms to GPL completely. This sounds like you still do not agree / believe / feel that Mitel unsupported developers release is GPL compliant. If you want to continue to discuss your opinion with others I would suggest that the general discussion forum is a more appropriate place for that with a broader audience. I *never* said that. Others said I said that, I did not. Period. I've seen a lot of postings (and experienced some pretty inane immature postings made to me) that on this list really are a waste of time and effort. Pretty sure there are a lot of ego's here (I know there are for a fact - some that need to think hard) but I also know there are some good people who are qualified technicians, developers and practitioners. I hope they put more effort into a public Contribs/SME plan and less time into willy waving. There are a few who need to engage gear (being polite) and show they can do this. Nuff said. End of the day we all choose to be here - its a duty of care to make sure we all play nicely together. It's not tricky and OpenSource is cool. Thing is some people here need to shave their ego's a tad :) Dick -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
Re: [e-smith-devinfo] Is this alowed?
On Monday 29 December 2003 05:37 pm, Dick Morrell wrote: Quoting Mike Sensney [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sigh. If you really want to think so then so be it. This is a developer's list. It is for people who actually write code to discuss problems they are having and to discuss what they are considering. Others who are not developers should stay quiet unless the developers ask for input or help testing. Mike did you have a bad morning. If you knew anything about software development you'd not actually talk like this. Abrasion doesnt happy beta and peer review testers beckon. Thats possibly the most anal and ill considered email I've read in about 4 yrs. If you'd posted that on any of the lists I moderate I'd have kicked your ass. I wish you would have sent this to me off list. But since you did I will answer on list also. Yes, I 've had a headache all day and that has made me short tempered. And you're right that I shouldn't have been so short with Bob. So I apologize to the list and to Bob. However I will point out three things. The first is I tried to answer Bob previously as honestly as I could as to why that previous thread should be stopped. He decided to nit pick my answer instead of taking it to heart. I shouldn't have been surprised. He answered you the same vein when you suggested to him to Please stop name calling and grow up in a previous exchange. The second is that this developer's list is hosted by Mitel and that Mitel has repeatedly stated that this list is not a debating list nor a help list. In short, my prior post while blunt, was also a fairly accurate summation this list's policy. If I am wrong then I'm sure the Mitel folk will correct me. The third thing is that the survival of this distribution depends entirely on keeping the base properly patched against security holes. If this isn't done then nothing else will matter. Period. Mitel is facing this same problem and I'm sure they will devote the required resources to do so. They will release the modified GPL source to their retail customers when requested. But they don't have to release those updates to us because we aren't a retail customer. Even if we do get the updated source RPMs from a retail customer, Mitel does not have to help us tweak them to work with SME 6.0. And under no circumstances will they ever have to release their updated and proprietary e-smith-* packages. Would it be nice for us to have the continued help and good will of the folk from Mitel? Definitely. But from this point on it will be entirely voluntary on their part. Can we survive without their help? Sure. But it will be a lot harder. If someone annoys them enough they may decide to go away. I for one don't want that to happen. -- Please report bugs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (only) to discuss security issues Support for registered customers and partners to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Searchable archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/devinfo%40lists.e-smith.org
