While I personally agree with the advice to rewrite, I'm curious
whether you've put the different versions in front of intended
visitors and gotten their reactions.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
Their, most definitely. Read steven Pinker his writing on
substantives to see that it's not a mathematical agree in person
number issue.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=43910
Knowing that rules such as never split infinitives were invented
in England in the 18th century as features to sell grammar books, to
me, sheds light and meaning on the validity of such rules.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
Lets go all we the back to Englisc. That is not a spelling mistake but the
name of the language we in England spoke before English.
The advantage of us using Englisc is that it is far more compatible with
Dutch, German and other languages.
But we would run into the problem if we should use formal
For what it's worth, I just noticed this on Facebook:
'my name just commented on their own status.'
They even already know what gender I am...
There. Dead horse, beaten.
Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
To
The New York Times Magazine has an article on the debate about they
as singular versus plural.
I have a NY Times account, but I think that you can access this for a
limited time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/magazine/26FOB-onlanguage-t.html?_r=1ref=magazine
They state as some have here
Who are your users? Is this a formal website, or is it something more
casual?
If it's a more formal website or something with a serious tone (such
as a health-related site that a user would rely on to provide accurate
information), you might lose credibility with some folks by using
their.
Robert - funny you should mention Grammar Girl. I remember an
interesting podcast she did on this topic. Her takeaway:
So here's the bottom line: Rewrite your sentences to avoid the
problem. If that's not possible, check to see if the people you are
writing for have a style guide. If not, use he
For a mailing list that hates discussions about semantics, this thread
is quite long.
--
Andrei Herasimchuk
Chief Design Officer, Involution Studios
innovating the digital world
e. and...@involutionstudios.com
c. +1 408 306 6422
Except that this isn't about semantics. It's about usage and grammar.
kt
who's sorry - but that opportunity was just too good to let it pass by
Katie Albers
User Experience Consultant Project Manager
ka...@firstthought.com
310 356 7550
On Jul 23, 2009, at 10:47 AM, Andrei Herasimchuk
For a mailing list that hates discussions about semantics, this thread is
quite long.
This list only likes to *say* it hates semantic debates.
-r-
Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
To post to this list
and to be fair, there is a categorical difference between debating
nomenclature and terminology related to professional job titles and
practices and a debate about the use of language in a user interface. (still
i think it's only tangentially related to interaction design, at best.)
On Thu, Jul
I have a theory, which is that there is a direct relationship between the
theoretical nature of a thread and the thread length, i.e., the more
theoretical, the more replies. And its correlative that even a simple,
rather concrete/straightforward topic can be made to be theoretical in order
to
This list only likes to *say* it hates semantic debates.
When you say *say* what do you mean? ;)
Oh, you clever bastard, you. I actually almost fell for that.
-r-
Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
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This list only likes to *say* it hates semantic debates.
When you say *say* what do you mean? ;)
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:48
To: disc...@ixda.org
Subject: [IxDA Discuss] His/Her vs. Their in website copy
...
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To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org
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Here's how I rationalize the their idiom: heshe makes it
plural and, thus, their. It's still wrong. My inner nun says to
translate it into Latin and see how it works. (Or choose any other
language besides English, say, Russian or Japanese.) And partner
seems so cold, while significant other
Just pointing out that it's significantly less common.
Really? Because it sounded to me like you were stating some abolute rules
with neither credible citations nor a sophisticated theory of linguistic
evolution behind them.
Not at all. Sorry if it appeared that way. But please, let's not
: [IxDA Discuss] His/Her vs. Their in website copy
...
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-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com
[mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com] On Behalf Of
Katie Albers
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:19 PM
To: IxDA
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] His/Her vs. Their in website copy
When you've got this kind of question, it's usually best to start
I've often wanted to build a form with gender input as a slider rather than
radio buttons.
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Marc Rettig
I've often wanted to build a form with gender input as a slider rather
than radio buttons.
You might enjoy this t-shirt:
http://nopitycity.com/shirts/gender-malefemaleother
Cheers
Caroline Jarrett
Forms that work: Designing web forms for usability www.formsthatwork.com
On 22 Jul 2009, at 19:00, Caroline Jarrett wrote:
Marc Rettig
I've often wanted to build a form with gender input as a slider
rather
than radio buttons.
You might enjoy this t-shirt:
http://nopitycity.com/shirts/gender-malefemaleother
There were some fascinating discussions over in
Their
Great thoughts here!
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Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=43910
Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
To post to
This is a good debate and both sides have some good points. Language
does evolve of course, but the results of evolution might be good or
bad. I might have missed a few of the messages, but I'm curious about
the distribution of reactions of users who read the constructions that
we are discussing.
Chauncey, you did a much better job at articulating what I was getting
at in my post. Of course (as has already been pointed out) the
audience matters but I worry about things like credibility and brand
image. I'd hate to give site users reason to question the site
sponsor's knowledge of grammar.
Just as I would expect the visitor to know Pinker's homonym
contribution to language cognition. ;)
aka
There's too many theirs there!
On Jul 22, 2009, at 5:40 PM, Adam Lerner wrote:
Chauncey, you did a much better job at articulating what I was getting
at in my post. Of course (as has
Howdy,
I'm working on a website targeted primarily at women. In several places we
need to ask for information about the user's significant other. 80%+ of our
visitors are straight women, but we do get the occasional man (gay or
straight) or gay woman.
The team is debating which pronoun to use in
Their, definitely.
His/Her just throws the differential in the alternate's face; it just
solidifies that they are fringe.
'Their' is MUCH better.
/psych major
On Jul 21, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Christopher Rider wrote:
Howdy,
I'm working on a website targeted primarily at women. In several
Their.
Much easier to read.
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Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=43910
Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
To post to
Not to be that guy, but isn't there some concern about choosing
the option that is flat-out grammatically incorrect? Their is
certainly smoother sounding in spoken language, but I'm not sure how
happy I would be with my brand's copy being wrong.
Just a thought.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Definitely their.
Did you consider Your partner's birthday or even Partner's
birthday?
Suze Ingram
User Experience Consultant
suze [dot] ingram [at] gmail.com
@suzeingram
http://suzeingram.blogspot.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/suzeingram
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Their implies multiple partners (and multiple birthdays). Plus,
it's grammatically incorrect.
Could you say Your significant other's birthday: as a
compromise?
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Posted from the new ixda.org
I'd be strongly inclined to use their over his/her. It's become a
fairly accepted approach (though some certainly object to it).
Here is a related Wikipedia entry on the singular they -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
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Although my internal nun is scowling at me, I'd have to agree with
Mike. It's certainly accepted in everyday speech and the language
needs such a term.
I think youse would be a harder sell (except in Philly).
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Posted from the
Here is a related Wikipedia entry on the singular they -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
Wikipedia is hardly a reliable source for grammar expertise. Don't make me
send Grammar Girl after you.
Their is grammatically incorrect when used to refer to a single person.
Consider
...@lists.interactiondesigners.com] On Behalf Of
Mark Green
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 6:58 AM
To: disc...@ixda.org
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] His/Her vs. Their in website copy
Although my internal nun is scowling at me, I'd have to agree with
Mike. It's certainly accepted in everyday speech and the language
needs
One may say that the use of the singular they is not universally
accepted, but to state that it's blatantly incorrect ignores the
flexibility and ever changing nature of the English language. It's
more commonly accepted by speakers of British English - who
incidentally adopted the title prefix Ms
-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com] On Behalf Of
Mark Green
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 6:58 AM
To: disc...@ixda.org
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] His/Her vs. Their in website copy
Although my internal nun is scowling at me, I'd have to agree with
Mike. It's certainly accepted in everyday speech
I'd rant about ignoring the grammarians and there are far more
authoritative sources for the singular they, ...
BUT, I don't think either is the best choice and agree with
reframing to Your [partner's/lover's/special someone's]
birthday. If you're trying to be casual, then be that and fun.
The team is debating which pronoun to use in field labels - e.g. Their
Birthday or His/Her Birthday.
If we're talking specifically about field labels, consider dropping the
pronoun entirely: Birthday.
This should work fine if the context for the overall form is clear. For
instance, you don't
Using the plural pronoun to refer to a single person of
unspecified gender is an old and honorable pattern in English, not a
newfangled bit of degeneracy or a politically correct plot to avoid
sexism (though it often serves the latter purpose). People who insist
that %u201CEveryone has brought his
The singular/indeterminate their is attested in English as far back as
modern English goes. We all innately understand this but fight against it
because of our medieval grammarian influence (usually anxious about things
that weren't parallel to Latin - hence our predicate nominative after the
verb
Phillip,
Think of grammar as standardization and enforcement of consistency.
There is a right time to rebel against grammar rules, just as
there is to rebel against consistency. The key is knowing when to
break the rules.
Your post, for instance, was *very* hard to read since you scattered
it
As mentioned a couple of times already, I think Your partner is
direct, neutral yet kind of personal, and appropriate.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=43910
On Jul 21, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Sarah Weise wrote:
Their implies multiple partners (and multiple birthdays). Plus,
it's grammatically incorrect.
Not so fast... grammar is actually subjective and fluid. Specifically
for this instance the following is a pretty interesting read.
People always get irritated about nouns becoming verbs and yet we all
google things.
Language lives! Evolve! Their! Theirs! ;)
I'm all for the evolution of language, and yes, nouns become verbs
frequently these days, but in this case, you're talking about making a
plural form singular. It's
How about a direct, 2nd person approach like Your partner's birthday?
*Excellent* suggestion.
-r-
Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
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Mini-rant: It's interesting that so many of us gripe about grammar
lessons in school, then want to enforce it in places like this,
calling things wrong and ungrammatical. And at the same time
we talk about designing for people. People communicate. In all
different ways.
It's also
No, I think what we're talking about is admitting the homonym.
Straight up Steven Pinker:
http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/books/tli/index.html
On Jul 21, 2009, at 3:43 PM, Robert Hoekman Jr wrote:
People always get irritated about nouns becoming verbs and yet we all
google things.
Language
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Robert Hoekman Jr rob...@rhjr.net wrote:
I'm all for the evolution of language, and yes, nouns become verbs
frequently these days, but in this case, you're talking about making a
plural form singular. It's the equivalent of referring to a single Google
Is a plural form becoming used for singular cases somehow an impermissible
form of evolution?
Just pointing out that it's significantly less common. I actually can't
think of any examples of this happening in English. I'm not sure your German
example counts — we're not talking about German
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 5:22 PM, Robert Hoekman Jr rob...@rhjr.net wrote:
Is a plural form becoming used for singular cases somehow an impermissible
form of evolution?
Just pointing out that it's significantly less common.
Really? Because it sounded to me like you were stating some abolute
Any way to get the gender of the person being targetted (the birthday
person) and provide the right pronoun?
You still have the issue where they can't/won't tell, but you can be
better excused in that case for whatever way you go.
-- Jim
Via my iPhone
On Jul 21, 2009, at 1:46 PM, suze
CV,
Thanks. I've made my living from adaptive verbal and written
language communication for 15 years, so I think I've got a fairly
good handle on the place of grammar. It is indeed used for
consistency in part, but not in the way that most people think about
it. Grammar is an internal
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