RE: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bjorn Reese Sent: 27 October 2005 20:10 To: discuss@ppig.org George Bernard Shaw, Donald Rumsfeld and Chris Moyles - So perhaps sitting is better after all. Subject: Re: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming. Carl Chilley wrote: *Superman syndrome*. Idea from the 80s whereby you have a full size cardboard cut-out of Superman standing behind you, over one of your shoulders. Whenever you get a problem, you explain what it is to Superman (the cut-out) and, in the vast majority of cases you then see a solution to the articulated problem. There appears to be two reasons for This effect has even been demonstrated in empirical studies. For example, Bartl Dorner [1] concludes that (my translation): Subjects asking questions and giving instructions to themselves, which summarizes and evaluates their own course of action, can altogether better organize the problem-solving process. [1] Christina Bartl and Dietrich Doerner, Die Oekokaefer: Zum Einfluss von Sprache auf die Problemloese- und Gedaechtnisleistung bei der Bearbeitung eines nicht-sprachlichen Problems, Memorandum Nr. 31, Lehrstuhl Psychologie II, Universitaet Bamberg, 1998 -- PPIG Discuss List (discuss@ppig.org) Discuss admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss Announce admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/announce PPIG Discuss archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss%40ppig.org/ -- PPIG Discuss List (discuss@ppig.org) Discuss admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss Announce admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/announce PPIG Discuss archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss%40ppig.org/
RE: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
yes - tell your friends to take a break. i'm sure there's some research out there that proves this, but my experience says that you can't normaly think hard for 3 hours strait, and you need a break. preferably, away from the computer. my rule is 10 min per hour. make yourself a cup of tea, do some push ups or tai chi. talk to someone. belive me - you'll get more done. probably save yourself from RSI as a bonus. I remember when I was an undergrad, we would spend the night in the computer lab. Every time I felt completly stuck, after pounding the code for hours, I would take a printout and go out for a smoke (I've quit both since). Usualy, by the time I reached the smoker's corner I knew where the bug was - without actualy looking at the printout. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Babar Abbas Sent: Thu 10/27/2005 3:46 AM To: discuss@ppig.org Cc: Subject:PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming. Hello all! I am a programmer from Pakistan, Programming from the past 6 years, as I started my bachelors, in 1998 and I am comparitively good at it. One of the problems that I am facing from the past 3 years or so, as I have started commercial software development, that I can't sit in front of the computer on my seat for more than 1 or 1.5 hours. Some times I did manage to do that, like if i've had a pleasent night chatting with one of my friends, at other most of the times i've struggled a lot, getting up for smoking or for tea, or for a walk at least, the basic purpose of which had been to motivate myself up for sitting on the seat for the next turn. As far as my psychological life is concerned I have been through a lot of things, which i can explain well. My new job is going to be started in a company with in the next few days, working in Network Security in Java. Some of my friends claim that they sit for 3 to 4 hours consistently without a rest in front of the computer in a single go. Can some body help with this. Regards, Babar Abbas. Software Engineer. -- PPIG Discuss List (discuss@ppig.org) Discuss admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss Announce admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/announce PPIG Discuss archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss%40ppig.org/
RE: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
Lots of reasons why 1.5 hours is of little use. One is risk of RSI. Another is proactive and retroactive inhibition of memory. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Babar AbbasSent: 27 October 2005 03:46To: discuss@ppig.orgSubject: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming. Hello all! I am a programmer from Pakistan, Programming from the past 6 years, as I started my bachelors, in 1998 and I am comparitively goodat it. One of the problems that I am facing from the past 3 years or so, as I have started commercial software development, that I can't sit in front of the computer on my seat for more than 1 or 1.5 hours. Some times I did manage to do that, like if i've had a pleasent night chatting with one of my friends, at other most of the times i've struggled alot, getting up for smoking or for tea, or for a walk at least, the basic purpose of which had been to motivate myself up for sitting on the seat for the next turn. As far as my psychological life is concerned I have been through a lot of things, which i can explain well.Mynew job is going to be started in a company with in the next few days, working in Network Security in Java. Some of my friends claim that they sit for 3 to 4 hoursconsistently without arest in front of the computer in a single go. Can some body help with this. Regards, Babar Abbas. Software Engineer.
RE: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
Carl == Carl Chilley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Good points re the memory issues. Add to this the superman syndrome and this is pressing reason enough to partition your work time slots and breaks. Carl Superman syndrome. Idea from the 80s whereby you have a full size cardboard cut-out of Superman standing behind you, over one of your shoulders. This is the one I knew as the Rubber plant effect, in which explaining your problem to a potted plant was helpful in clarifying it. (Apparently it was earlier the expert programmer effect, and the potted plant originally used was a rubber plant called Dijkstra.) Whenever you get a problem, you explain what it is to Superman (the cut-out) and, in the vast majority of cases you then see a solution to the articulated problem. There appears to be two reasons for this. ... Another way that it may help is that, when your idea of the situation splits into several possibilities, you either have to pick one to articulate it, or you have to articulate that it might be one of several things, and perhaps list them, and this helps to clarify which of them it is. __John -- PPIG Discuss List (discuss@ppig.org) Discuss admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss Announce admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/announce PPIG Discuss archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss%40ppig.org/
Re: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
On 2005-10-27 at 14:53BST John Sturdy wrote: Carl == Carl Chilley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Superman syndrome. Idea from the 80s whereby you have a full size cardboard cut-out of Superman standing behind you, over one of your shoulders. This is the one I knew as the Rubber plant effect, in which explaining your problem to a potted plant was helpful in clarifying it. (Apparently it was earlier the expert programmer effect, and the potted plant originally used was a rubber plant called Dijkstra.) The rubber plant Dijkstra stood in room 208 of the Computer Laboratory, a room with about eight PhD students in it, including Stuart Wray (I think it was his plant, but am not sure) and myself. While we were fond of invoking The expert programmer effect and the /idea/ of talking to Dijkstra, I'm not sure anyone ever actually spoke to the plant, as there were plenty of real people about. We were very conscious that explaining a problem was often sufficient without any response from the listener. Jón -- Jón Fairbairn [EMAIL PROTECTED] 31 Chalmers Road [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cambridge CB1 3SZ+44 1223 570179 (after 14:00 only, please!) -- PPIG Discuss List (discuss@ppig.org) Discuss admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss Announce admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/announce PPIG Discuss archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss%40ppig.org/
Re: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
I think you underestimate the impact of the rubber plant. I used to talk about my problems (debugging ones) to friends who were mildly tech savvy -- at least analytic -- and those who were english majors. I found that even if the person didn't say anything/much, I got better results from the analytic ones. It might have been my expectations, or the way I talked to them -- think about how you would talk differently to a 2 year old, for an extreme example, or maybe when they looked puzzled, or just said Huh? in helpful places. But I got different results in enough cases that I'm confident of the effect. Robin On 10/27/05, Jon Fairbairn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2005-10-27 at 14:53BST John Sturdy wrote: Carl == Carl Chilley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Superman syndrome. Idea from the 80s whereby you have a full size cardboard cut-out of Superman standing behind you, over one of your shoulders. This is the one I knew as the Rubber plant effect, in which explaining your problem to a potted plant was helpful in clarifying it. (Apparently it was earlier the expert programmer effect, and the potted plant originally used was a rubber plant called Dijkstra.) The rubber plant Dijkstra stood in room 208 of the Computer Laboratory, a room with about eight PhD students in it, including Stuart Wray (I think it was his plant, but am not sure) and myself. While we were fond of invoking The expert programmer effect and the /idea/ of talking to Dijkstra, I'm not sure anyone ever actually spoke to the plant, as there were plenty of real people about. We were very conscious that explaining a problem was often sufficient without any response from the listener. Jón -- Jón Fairbairn [EMAIL PROTECTED] 31 Chalmers Road [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cambridge CB1 3SZ+44 1223 570179 (after 14:00 only, please!) -- PPIG Discuss List (discuss@ppig.org) Discuss admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss Announce admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/announce PPIG Discuss archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss%40ppig.org/ -- PPIG Discuss List (discuss@ppig.org) Discuss admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss Announce admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/announce PPIG Discuss archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss%40ppig.org/
RE: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
The rubber plant Dijkstra stood in room 208 of the Computer Laboratory, a room with about eight PhD students in it, including Stuart Wray (I think it was his plant, but am not sure) and myself. While we were fond of invoking The expert programmer effect and the /idea/ of talking to Dijkstra, I'm not sure anyone ever actually spoke to the plant, as there were plenty of real people about. We were very conscious that explaining a problem was often sufficient without any response from the listener. The really interesting question is what effect did listening to programmers going on about their problems have on the plant? L. -- PPIG Discuss List (discuss@ppig.org) Discuss admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss Announce admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/announce PPIG Discuss archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss%40ppig.org/
Re: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
On 2005-10-27 at 16:41BST Lindsay Marshall wrote: The rubber plant Dijkstra stood in room 208 of the Computer Laboratory, [...] The really interesting question is what effect did listening to programmers going on about their problems have on the plant? I'm sure it enjoyed the warm, damp, carbon dioxide rich air. Jón -- Jón Fairbairn [EMAIL PROTECTED] 31 Chalmers Road [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cambridge CB1 3SZ+44 1223 570179 (after 14:00 only, please!) -- PPIG Discuss List (discuss@ppig.org) Discuss admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss Announce admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/announce PPIG Discuss archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss%40ppig.org/
Re: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
On 10/27/05 16:19, Carl Chilley wrote: Sadly I have to confess I never had a cardboard cut-out of anything At my first place of work, we had a full-sized cardboard Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry, complete with .44 Magnum, in our relatively small computer room. I don't recall any programmer ever talking to it, though; we tended to talk to each other, often in a nearby pub or restaurant. At least one product got created out of such problem-airing discussions. but I used a soft toy of my daughter's (or was it my wife's - not sure). Perhaps because I'm an only child, I'm in the odd habit of holding a conversation with myself when working on a problem, in which I play both sides of the I don't understand why this doesn't work/ Well, that clearly can't work because of *this* discussion. At least some people who know me fairly well have found me doing this (catching me arguing with myself in the mirror is the scariest, I reckon :-) ), but so far they have always been too polite to phone my psychiatrist. What was the question again? Oh, yes, sitting for a long time. Here's a suggestion: have you tried *standing* while you work? Some people report that having a stand-up desk, usually with something like a bar stool to prop their backside on from time to time, makes them feel more energized as they work. If you're the kind of person who likes to pace while they think, this might be worth trying out, assuming your workplace allows for it. -- Frank Wales [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PPIG Discuss List (discuss@ppig.org) Discuss admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss Announce admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/announce PPIG Discuss archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss%40ppig.org/
Re: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
On Oct 27, 2005, at 11:43 AM, Frank Wales wrote: Perhaps because I'm an only child, I'm in the odd habit of holding a conversation with myself when working on a problem, in which I play both sides of the I don't understand why this doesn't work/ Well, that clearly can't work because of *this* discussion. Whew. I'm glad I'm not the only one who does this. :-) When thinking about problems I often try to find a way to be alone and I spend an hour or so pacing around the room talking to myself. It helps even more to have a whiteboard available so I can also show things to myself as well (I'm more of a visual learner, I think). My theory is that as the information is put into words my mind if forced to clarify things that may only exist as nebulous ideas for the purpose of communication. As I listen to myself talking, the idea then goes through another layer of translation which verifies the incoming information in a way I can't seem to do internally. The upshot is that the information is essentially vetted twice - once on the way out, and once on the way back in. The resulting complete thoughts are much more clear by the end of it. I find that the same effect can be achieved by opening up a text editor and just spewing text in a conversational way and reading it back to myself. Often I end up doing both. What was the question again? Oh, yes, sitting for a long time. Here's a suggestion: have you tried *standing* while you work? Some people report that having a stand-up desk, usually with something like a bar stool to prop their backside on from time to time, makes them feel more energized as they work. If you're the kind of person who likes to pace while they think, this might be worth trying out, assuming your workplace allows for it. The first time I heard about this was in an article I read about a tour through the animation studio Pixar. At Pixar the artists are generally given a small space (technically not a cubicle) which they can then customize to their liking with any sort of furniture, walls, doors, desks, etc. The part that stuck out was that the author of the piece had noticed at least one animator didn't have a chair at all - he stood up while he worked! His desk was placed near a wall so that he could lean against the wall as needed, but at front of his space (away from the computer) he had a fluffy couch to lie down on for the really tough problems. l8r Sean -- PPIG Discuss List (discuss@ppig.org) Discuss admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss Announce admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/announce PPIG Discuss archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss%40ppig.org/
Re: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
but my experience says that you can't normaly think hard for 3 hours strait, and you need a break. yes, true, I worked in bachelors in antisocial mode, in the last 2 years, what happened, got burned out. But the antisocial mode helps when you are stuck analytically in something reallyhard and you got to drill through it. changing the perspective helps when one perspective is exhausted a bit, otherwise if we start shifting perspectives a little too often then i don't know what will happen. but if the manager still insists, i will sit in a relax moodto avoid RSI,and to sit longer. otherwise1 hour is good enough. enjoy the beauty of the plants, company of your colleagues. and most importantly a smoke. ;) Thanks. On 10/27/05, Yishay Mor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yes - tell your friends to take a break. i'm sure there's some research out there that proves this, but my experience says that you can't normaly think hard for 3 hours strait, and you need a break. preferably, away from the computer. my rule is 10 min per hour. make yourself a cup of tea, do some push ups or tai chi. talk to someone. belive me - you'll get more done. probably save yourself from RSI as a bonus. I remember when I was an undergrad, we would spend the night in the computer lab. Every time I felt completly stuck, after pounding the code for hours, I would take a printout and go out for a smoke (I've quit both since). Usualy, by the time I reached the smoker's corner I knew where the bug was - without actualy looking at the printout. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Babar AbbasSent: Thu 10/27/2005 3:46 AMTo: discuss@ppig.orgCc:Subject:PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.Hello all!I am a programmer from Pakistan, Programming from the past 6 years, as I started my bachelors, in 1998 and I am comparitively good at it. One of theproblems that I am facing from the past 3 years or so, as I have startedcommercial software development, that I can't sit in front of the computer on my seat for more than 1 or 1.5 hours. Some times I did manage to do that,like if i've had a pleasent night chatting with one of my friends, at othermost of the times i've struggled a lot, getting up for smoking or for tea, or for a walk at least, the basic purpose of which had been to motivatemyself up for sitting on the seat for the next turn.As far as my psychological life is concerned I have been through a lot ofthings, which i can explain well. My new job is going to be started in a company with in the next few days, working in Network Security in Java. Someof my friends claim that they sit for 3 to 4 hours consistently without arest in front of the computer in a single go. Can some body help with this. Regards,Babar Abbas.Software Engineer. Programming Psychology.rar Description: application/rar-compressed
Re: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
On 10/27/05 18:05, Sean Heber wrote: On Oct 27, 2005, at 11:43 AM, Frank Wales wrote: Perhaps because I'm an only child, I'm in the odd habit of holding a conversation with myself when working on a problem, in which I play both sides of the I don't understand why this doesn't work/ Well, that clearly can't work because of *this* discussion. Whew. I'm glad I'm not the only one who does this. :-) Frank: Welcome to this meeting of self-talkers anonymous. Why don't we let the newcomer introduce himself? First names only, now. Frank: Er, yes. My name is 'Frank', and I talk to myself. Frank: Hello, Frank, nice to meet you. Frank: Hey, Frank. Frank: Just before we start, does anyone know where the bathroom is? Frank: You're not just looking for a mirror, are you? You know the rules. Frank: Er... Frank: It's okay, Frank, it's why I'm all here. -- Frank Wales [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PPIG Discuss List (discuss@ppig.org) Discuss admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss Announce admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/announce PPIG Discuss archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss%40ppig.org/
RE: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
Here's a suggestion: have you tried *standing* while you work? Famous standers include : George Bernard Shaw, Donald Rumsfeld and Radio 1 DJ Chris Moyles. There has been a lot of discussion about working standing on various weblogs recently. L. -- PPIG Discuss List (discuss@ppig.org) Discuss admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss Announce admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/announce PPIG Discuss archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss%40ppig.org/
Re: PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
Carl Chilley wrote: *Superman syndrome*. Idea from the 80s whereby you have a full size cardboard cut-out of Superman standing behind you, over one of your shoulders. Whenever you get a problem, you explain what it is to Superman (the cut-out) and, in the vast majority of cases you then see a solution to the articulated problem. There appears to be two reasons for This effect has even been demonstrated in empirical studies. For example, Bartl Dorner [1] concludes that (my translation): Subjects asking questions and giving instructions to themselves, which summarizes and evaluates their own course of action, can altogether better organize the problem-solving process. [1] Christina Bartl and Dietrich Doerner, Die Oekokaefer: Zum Einfluss von Sprache auf die Problemloese- und Gedaechtnisleistung bei der Bearbeitung eines nicht-sprachlichen Problems, Memorandum Nr. 31, Lehrstuhl Psychologie II, Universitaet Bamberg, 1998 -- PPIG Discuss List (discuss@ppig.org) Discuss admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss Announce admin: http://limitlessmail.net/mailman/listinfo/announce PPIG Discuss archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss%40ppig.org/
PPIG discuss: Problems sitting on the seat (acquiring the seat) while Programming.
Hello all! I am a programmer from Pakistan, Programming from the past 6 years, as I started my bachelors, in 1998 and I am comparitively goodat it. One of the problems that I am facing from the past 3 years or so, as I have started commercial software development, that I can't sit in front of the computer on my seat for more than 1 or 1.5 hours. Some times I did manage to do that, like if i've had a pleasent night chatting with one of my friends, at other most of the times i've struggled alot, getting up for smoking or for tea, or for a walk at least, the basic purpose of which had been to motivate myself up for sitting on the seat for the next turn. As far as my psychological life is concerned I have been through a lot of things, which i can explain well.Mynew job is going to be started in a company with in the next few days, working in Network Security in Java. Some of my friends claim that they sit for 3 to 4 hoursconsistently without arest in front of the computer in a single go. Can some body help with this. Regards, Babar Abbas. Software Engineer.
