Closed loop elections. See:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/features/display.var.1511167.0.0.php
An engineer's answer to voters' imperfect knowledge?
JG
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
From: Kathy Dopp Sent: 25 May 2007 00:50
On 5/24/07, James Gilmour [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris Backert Sent: 24 May 2007 19:39
For one, saying can't we just use paper ballots
ignores the millions of American's who are unable to use paper
ballots.
I am surprised you say
were OK but not
completely within the high level spec set for automatic processing.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
paper with two Xs
at the same time and this was the first time the current generation of Scottish
electors has used
STV for public elections, the rejection rate was well within expectation.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
on the Meath
RO's website but can be downloaded from:
www.jamesgilmour.org.uk/Dail-GE2002-Meath-STV-MixedCsv.zip (zipped CSV
file 552 KB)
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
effect cannot be exploited by
either the candidates or the voters, so it is of no practical effect.
It would be nice, but we cannot have it all - at least, not all at
once!!
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 April 2007 09:37
James Gilmour jgilmour at globalnet.co.uk
raphfrk at netscape.net Sent: 16 April 2007 20:08
It might be easier to explain. The real problem with PR-STV is
the
fractional transfers. They are not very easy to explain.
Fractional transfers
of this kind are unwise. The only good advice for
STV-PR public elections, i.e. with large numbers of voters whose
preferences you cannot possibly know, is Do NOT attempt to vote
tactically. Vote positively for the candidates you really want.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see
our 2007 local government
elections. Then we might have independent validation of the results and
lots of interesting (and amusing) political and sociological analysis of
the preference patterns.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
programs readily available that will count the ballot data according to
any of the versions of the rules that have ever been dreamed up.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
elections
Any form of bullet vote gives the parties de facto control. Elections
are for electors - or at least, they should be!
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
voting at all.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
from 12 different
parties were elected. Changed days from 1951 and 1955 when the two
largest parties together took 97% and 96% of all the votes!! The UK is
the exception that proves Duverger's law.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
- to give the voters what
THEY want - which may not be what the parties want. But then,
elections are for electors.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax Sent: 31 December 2006 02:29
How can you compare your irritation with mine?
Perhaps we should use range voting? Then we could express the strengths
of our respective irritations.
With Best Wishes for a good New Year and for some effective reform of
voting systems
for Alternative Vote many decades before the term Approval Voting
was first coined by Robert J. Weber in 1976 (Wikipedia).
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax Sent: 30 December 2006 18:49
At 01:05 PM 12/30/2006, James Gilmour wrote:
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax Sent: 30 December 2006 15:42
Well, it is a bit irritating to me, and perhaps to some others,
that
AV is used in the paper to refer to Alternative Vote; we routinely
produce perverse results, giving more representation to the smaller
group of voters.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
, some STV counting
rules provide for the transfer to be held in abeyance, but that doesn't
alter the general principle.
James Gilmour
---
What you describe would indeed work, however
Suppose the second choices of the 100 winner (pepperoni) votes were
one half for mushrooms, one half
Jonathan Lundell Sent: 13 November 2006 16:27
At 11:37 AM + 11/13/06, James Gilmour wrote:
Rather, STV-PR was devised to
ensure that each significant point of view within the electorate was
represented fairly (as expressed by the voters' responses to the
candidates who had offered
an approbational rate almost
double with SPPA instead of Juho's system.
James Gilmour a écrit :
Stephane a écrit :
It is possible to achieve PR with single-member districts if by
single-member district it means only one representative of any
political can be candidate. This unclassical
winner election where there is only one post
to fill, like a city mayor or a state governor. Any other definitions
are unhelpful and just create confusion where none need exist.
So my statement stands:
James Gilmour a écrit :
My statement related to voting systems based on single-member
districts
Stephane Rouillon Sent: 16 October 2006 21:18
Sorry for asking a question most people already know, but
Is there any difference between STV and STV-PR systems or are
they simply two names for the same model? If not what is the
difference?
In a word, no. But as we all know, STV can be
should know best what will play best with local electors.
There is a lot of STV-PR campaign literature around the
world - don't hesitate to steal the ideas that are locally relevant.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
the
communities you have identified, especially mountain ranges and uncrossable
rivers.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Claes Wallin Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:25 PM
James Gilmour wrote:
If you want a bicameral legislature, why would you want one chamber
elected so that it is unrepresentative of those who voted for its
members? You can have both districts and PR for the same chamber. Of
course
Juho Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 10:22 PM
The Scottish situation sounds to me like a multi-party system
(that has emerged under different rules) has gotten trapped
in a two-party EM, and this kind of mixture is not a pretty
match (looks actually quite terrible).
No, not at all. For UK
Juho Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 8:46 AM
James Gilmour wrote:
Of course, you cannot have single-member districts and PR, ... ...
I think there are methods that allow even this. It is
possible for example to first count nation wide the votes of
each party and decide the number of seats
sight of the big questions: What is the purpose of this Denver election?
How can we most quickly and effectively
bring about the desired change?
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
13 at large,
or in two multi-member districts.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
several time zones is
not to start any counting until the last
polling station has closed and to ban the publication of all exit polls until
that time.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
contribution to the resolution
of some of the political problems in
Israel that arise directly from its current voting system.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
STV
perfect. I don't know who you think made that
claim - I most certainly didn't. There is NO perfect voting system - they
all have their defects, STV-PR included.
And the practical implementation of any voting system will always involve
compromises.
James Gilmour
election-methods
you could have districts
electing, say, 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 members, with size being related to the various
natural communities and to population
distribution (urban v. rural).
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
From: Jan Kok Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 12:33 AM
MMP = mixed member proportional? Which I believe is used in
New Zealand also.
Yes, MMP = Mixed Member Proportional (voting system), which we in the UK call
AMS = Additional Member System.
What is the trouble that you have with it?
OCR and then counted by computer.
And we shall have all the paper ballots if anyone wants to demand a manual
count - and we have plenty of experience of
manual counting of both STV-PR and MMP.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
/orderstv.htm
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
electors. I can see merits
in both IRV and Condorcet, but this is a practical aspect of voting reform that
very few advocates of Condorcet methods
have attempted to address.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Eric Gorr Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 1:31 PM
James Gilmour wrote:
Jan Kok Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 4:07 AM
Yes, I agree that the election rules affect how people vote.
But, unsophisticated IRV supporters are not aware that there
can be incentives to vote insincerely in IRV
do express an opinion. If the
abstainers are really opposed to the proposal in
the resolution they have a very simple remedy - vote No.
This UK approach to abstention applies both where the voters must be present
to vote and to postal ballots.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 2:40 AM
At 03:07 PM 12/2/2005, James Gilmour wrote:
On this point we shall have to disagree. Just because you express
your liking for A and your dislike for B more strongly than I do,
does not mean your vote should count for any more
using a fixed scale such as 0-to-99.
I am glad that misunderstanding has been cleared up, because the wording of the
original posts gave a very different
impression.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
, once again, have
not been answered.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:28 AM
James Gilmour wrote:
What I had in mind was if I vote 1, 2, 3, 4 (1 = most preferred, the
one I want to see win) for candidates A, B, C, D,
and you vote 100, 99, 2, 1 (1 = most preferred) for the same four
candidates, it would
on the marks on the paper if you start from a social
choice perspective. But that's not where IRV
came from.
James Gilmour
election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
more should be
imputed to a truncated ballot.
It is none of my business, nor is it anyone else's business, why any voters
made the decision to truncate when they
could have gone on to mark more or all preferences.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em
for a candidate in the
single-member district, the other for a party at national or regional level.
Seats are allocated nationally or
regionally on the basis of the party votes.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
party membership when deciding who will best represent them.
Regards
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
away from the big party machines and give it to
the voters is likely to run into the same
opposition and have to face a campaign that will be every bit as dirty.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
of an implementation of STV that has 3 and 4-member
districts in the densely populated
cities where there should be 7 and 8-member districts.
Regards
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
suggest that the ArbCom should be elected by
a single-winner election method used at large.
I cannot see any logical connection between these two statements.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
composition?
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
and there is almost no cross-party voting.
In others, cross-party voting is used very greatly by the voters to express
their wishes to the full. What is unique
about STV-PR is the power it gives to the voters, if they want to use it.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http
the past 50
years.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
equivalent in the UK to the US
parliamentarians. I now understand a little
better why Robert's Rules of Order have such a special place in US affairs.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
in the UK
too, but some of the most vociferous
opponents of voting reform do understand the different systems very well. They
want to keep the present biased, unfair,
undemocratic systems because they do rather well out of them most of the time.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see
by multiple X-vote (first three past
the post), the voter may mark one, two or three Xs, but if the ballot paper has
more than three Xs it is automatically
discarded as spoilt.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
-winner electoral
system among the ones actually used in the world. It should
not stop us to search for a better one.
James Gilmour a écrit :
Stephane Rouillon Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 5:44 AM
Criterias and electoral methods hare not meant to
cope for a fractionated electorate
representation of
consensus among the electors. But there is a much older view: that the purpose
of a voting system should be to maximise
representation of the diversity among the electors.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
exclusively a
single-winner election discussion, but my
original comment was prompted by Stephane's completely general assertion about
the goal of an electoral system.)
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
(60% of
districts required) but fails to get 60% of the overall vote. We are watching
with very great interest (and concern).
James Gilmour
Edinburgh, Scotland
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
year, in trade
union and similar elections.
James Gilmour
Edinburgh, Scotland
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
%, sometimes a little more,
sometimes a little less. The only good thing
to come out of this is that it might, just might, hasten the day of reform.
With regard to Duverger's Law, I have always thought Duverger's hypothesis
might have been a more appropriate and
more accurate description.
James
by hand. They can also be scanned ('intelligent character recognition') to
produce computer readable files for the
counting process.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
been known in
the UK for many decades as the
Alternative Vote.)
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
? There MAY be some relevant analogies.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
battery-powered calculator is helpful.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
for gender balance:
CPA Order 96 Section 4. Electoral Candidates
3) No fewer than one out of the first three candidates on the list must be
woman; no
fewer than two out of the first six candidates on the list must be woman; and so
forth until the end of the list.
James Gilmour
Election-methods
James Green-Armytage Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 6:48 AM
This is an example of where expert jargon is counter-intuitive to a
beginner. If a completed ranked ballot looks like this:
CandiateRank
A 2
B 3
C 1
D 4
We tend to loosely say that C
Steve Eppley Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 1:07 AM
But I accept Paul's point. There might be some decision,
somewhere, where Borda would be a good voting method.
No matter how you manipulate the points allocated to successive preferences, it
will, I think,
always be possible for the
Mike Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 6:56 PM
Here's a similar question: Does it matter if we use a Borda count of
3-2-1-0 (Highest score wins) or 0-1-2-3 (lowest score wins)?
I thought I read somewhere they weren't necessarily symmetric, but I
can't think of
any counterexamples so I
Forest W Simmons Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 12:56 AM
A writer in the most recent Zmagazine says that 85% of congressional
elections are won by the incumbent, and goes on to say that most of the
other 15% are cases in which the incumbent has died or retired.
With this in mind, why not
Jeffrey O'Neill Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 3:25 AM
(1) C and D each get nothing.
(2) C and D each get 1.5 points (average of leftover points).
I believe that's why he was asking here. That said, I don't think
there's a right answer. I've looked into this before and Borda
Rob Brown Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:40 PM
BTW, I never understood where the term first past the post
comes from. It doesn't seem very descriptive.
Anyone have any insight into this?
You have obviously never seen a horse race! First past the post (the winning post!)
is a
Anthony Duff Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 1:18 AM
--- James Gilmour [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The facility for party voting in
the Australian Federal Senate STV-PR elections is a gross perversion
of STV. It has reduced STV to just another party list PR system.
Background
Rob Brown Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 11:10 PM
So, can you tell me a significant real world advantage to allowing voters
explicitly rank them, other than simply speculating that they will demand it
if it is not offered? Will the election actually produce
significantly better results
To add to the view from Belgium, see this report from a statutory Commission on
Electronic Voting in
Ireland:
http://www.cev.ie/htm/report/index.htm
James
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
James Green-Armytage Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 10:07 AM
However, surprisingly, the fractional transfer issue
doesn't end there. Note that in STV-PR, candidate
eliminations happen before surplus transfers.
James, where did you get this statement? As written, it is wrong. If you
James Green-Armytage Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:12 AM
Yes, slates are a good idea in any STV method.
No, slates are NOT a good idea in any STV method. Slates, and all the party control
implied by
slates, run counter to all that STV stands for. STV-PR is a voter-centred,
Alex Small Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 9:34 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that people
have the option of voting either their own preference order,
or else a preference order that a party decided upon in
advance.
This is correct, but the overwhelming majority of
Philippe Errembault Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 11:25 AM
In fact, I'm trying to find a solution for a problem we have
in Belgium with a proportional representation system...
The big solution is simple: change to STV-PR. That will solve your specific problem
and bring
many other
Dr.Ernie Prabhakar Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 4:30 PM
to. With STV-PR, is there any way to preserve 'weak'
locality? That is, say I have district magnitude of 20, so I can
conceptually identify 20 subdistricts which have been combined into a single
district for PR purposes.
Bart Ingles Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 5:32 AM
I recall reading somewhere that the technically correct, if
not common, usage is to have exactly two alternatives or any
number of options.
I suspect this restrictive definition fell out of common use many years ago. I don't
have on-line
Steve Eppley Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 3:08 PM
the Scott, Foresman book on Robert's Rules of Order.
Their use of IRV as an example could explain why some
people now believe the term is a synonym for IRV.
I have no idea which came first, but the term preferential voting has been used in
Forest Simmons Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 10:15 PM
I sympathize with the sentiments of those who would like to
allow expression of intransitive preferences.
In February of 1967 when I took aptitude tests after being
sworn into the US Army, I noticed that there were lots of
it cease to be a Condorcet method if
voters have the option to truncate at their respective points of indifference?
Eric replied:
No.
Does Dave Ketchum agree? He made the claim.
James Gilmour
PS I should appreciate receiving only one copy of EM e-mails, via the EM list.
Election-methods
situation one might also argue that the voter's second preference was
counting against
the voter's first preference.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
then in
play exceeds
the number of voters.
But what about later preferences counting against earlier preferences?
Given that these two violations occur only in the particular circumstances of a
Condorcet cycle, do
we just dismiss them both as peculiarities of that situation?
James Gilmour
attitude surveys
that provide
relevant evidence: could you please point us to the links where we'll find the data or
the reported
results?
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
of the
electorate. NB I
want real evidence, either from real public elections or from elector attitude surveys.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
James Gilmour wrote:
Now consider:
49 ACB
48 BCA
3 CBA
IRV winner = B; CW winner = C.
Mike replied:
You've used where you meant .
Thanks, Mike, for pointing out my mistake.
The two examples should, of course, have been:
35 ACB
33 BCA
32 CBA
IRV winner = B; CW winner
James Green-Armytage suggested:
Let's try to follow through with one of these examples
until the end. Let's say that in a presidential election, the
ballots cast are
48: Bush McCain Gore
3: McCain Bush Gore
49: Gore McCain Bush
The Condorcet winner is McCain, and the
evidence to the
contrary I'd like very much to see it.
James Gilmour
James Green-Armytage replied:
Well, if the votes were sincere to begin with, then it
is axiomatic that C will win a runoff election against B.
But if you did decide this by a separate run-off election, I should
be very pleased to see it.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
James Gilmour wrote:
49 ACB
48 BCA
3 CBA
James Green-Armytage replied:
Well, if the votes were sincere to begin with, then it is
axiomatic that C will win a runoff election against B.
But if you did decide this by a separate run-off election, I should
Adam
Thanks for your helpful comments.
I think that such a vote could be marketed in a way that
would make it relatively uncontroversial. In cases with no first-place
majority winner,
Condorcet chooses the compromise candidate with the broadest base of
support.
Maybe, but I remain VERY
James Gilmour wrote:
49 ACB
48 BCA
3 CBA
[and expressed doubts about whether the public would accept a
voting system that chose C as the winner]
What I see here is a highly polarized electorate. The
A-first voters place B last, and vice versa. Both A-first
and B-first voters
Curt Siffert [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Honestly, though, I don't believe the 3/49/48 scenario would ever
happen in a political election. For a candidate to have gathered
enough support to even compete in an election, he or she
would have to
have a significant amount of first-place
(council) elections in
Scotland. But there
is much more to it than that. For a discussion of the issues involved (in the context
of the Bill
before the Scottish Parliament) see this downloadable (PDF) Briefing Note:
http://homepages.phonecoop.coop/James.Gilmour/STVTransferRules.pdf
James Gilmour
as determined by the unasked question) because such ballots
might well not
produce the result the voters wanted. So you have still discovered nothing useful.
Worse, you have
probably misled yourself.
James Gilmour
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
1 - 100 of 163 matches
Mail list logo
