Re: [EM] Why We Shouldn't Count Votes with Machines

2008-08-15 Thread Dave Ketchum
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:00:06 -0700 rob brown wrote: On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 9:16 AM, Kathy Dopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 11:28 PM, rob brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How? Do we want an infinite loop of a

Re: [EM] Why We Shouldn't Count Votes with Machines

2008-08-15 Thread rob brown
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 11:01 PM, Dave Ketchum [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: (most of Dave's comments snipped out, I responded to only a few) Open source is ESSENTIAL: While it encourages quality programming by those who do not want to get caught doing otherwise, it also encourages thorough testing

Re: [EM] [Election-Methods] [english 94%] PR favoring racial minorities

2008-08-15 Thread raphfrk
Jobst Heitzig said: It is of no help for a minority to be represented proportionally when still a mere 51% majority can make all decisions! I disagree.? The advantage is that it allows 'on the fly' coalition re-organisation. If all the legislators are elected via a single seat system,

Re: [EM] [Election-Methods] Clarke taxes and group strategies

2008-08-15 Thread raphfrk
Jobst Heitzig wrote: Now, I have the impression that a slight modification of the tax formula may reduce this incentive considerably. Consider this tax: ?? sum { R(W,k) - R(W(i),k) ?? + sum { ( R(W(i),k) - R(W(i,j),k) ) / 2 ?? : j different from i and k } ?? : k different from i } where

Re: [EM] Why We Shouldn't Count Votes with Machines

2008-08-15 Thread Kristofer Munsterhjelm
Dave Ketchum wrote: Or do we want the voter to be able to cancel the ballot and let the poll workers know that he needs a paper ballot instead that he can mark himself? I'm fine with the latter. Actually that seems like a reasonable thing to do. I agree,

Re: [EM] [Election-Methods] [english 94%] PR favoring racialminorities

2008-08-15 Thread James Gilmour
Jobst Heitzig said: It is of no help for a minority to be represented proportionally when still a mere 51% majority can make all decisions! raphfrk replied I disagree. The advantage is that it allows 'on the fly' coalition re-organisation. I also disagree, but for a different reason

Re: [EM] [Election-Methods] [english 94%] PR favoring racialminorities

2008-08-15 Thread Jonathan Lundell
On Aug 15, 2008, at 7:40 AM, James Gilmour wrote: Jobst Heitzig said: It is of no help for a minority to be represented proportionally when still a mere 51% majority can make all decisions! raphfrk replied I disagree. The advantage is that it allows 'on the fly' coalition

Re: [EM] [Election-Methods] [english 94%] PR favoring racialminorities

2008-08-15 Thread Juho
Some more observations on the benefits of minority representation (and problem too). It is much easier to make decisions against the interests of some minority when they are not in the room when compared to the situation where they sit in the room and give comments on the proposals. The

Re: [EM] [Election-Methods] [english 94%] PR favoring racialminorities

2008-08-15 Thread Juho
On Aug 15, 2008, at 18:45 , Jonathan Lundell wrote: On Aug 15, 2008, at 7:40 AM, James Gilmour wrote: Jobst Heitzig said: It is of no help for a minority to be represented proportionally when still a mere 51% majority can make all decisions! raphfrk replied I disagree. The advantage is

Re: [EM] Can someone point me at an example of the nonmonotonicity of IRV?

2008-08-15 Thread Kristofer Munsterhjelm
Chris Benham wrote: *Kristofer Munsterhjelm* wrote (Sun. Aug.10): There's also the it smells fishy that nonmonotonicity - of any kind or frequency - evokes. I think that's stronger for nonmonotonicity than for things like strategy vulnerability because it's an error that appears in the method

Re: [EM] [Election-Methods] [english 94%] PR favoring racialminorities

2008-08-15 Thread Jonathan Lundell
On Aug 15, 2008, at 9:23 AM, Juho wrote: On Aug 15, 2008, at 18:45 , Jonathan Lundell wrote: On Aug 15, 2008, at 7:40 AM, James Gilmour wrote: Jobst Heitzig said: It is of no help for a minority to be represented proportionally when still a mere 51% majority can make all decisions!

Re: [EM] [Election-Methods] [english 94%] PR favoring racialminorities

2008-08-15 Thread Juho
On Aug 15, 2008, at 22:27 , Jonathan Lundell wrote: On Aug 15, 2008, at 9:23 AM, Juho wrote: On Aug 15, 2008, at 18:45 , Jonathan Lundell wrote: On Aug 15, 2008, at 7:40 AM, James Gilmour wrote: Jobst Heitzig said: It is of no help for a minority to be represented proportionally when

Re: [EM] [Election-Methods] [english 94%] PR favoring racial minorities

2008-08-15 Thread Kristofer Munsterhjelm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jobst Heitzig said: It is of no help for a minority to be represented proportionally when still a mere 51% majority can make all decisions! I disagree. The advantage is that it allows 'on the fly' coalition re-organisation. If all the legislators are

Re: [EM] [Election-Methods] [english 94%] PR favoring racialminorities

2008-08-15 Thread Jonathan Lundell
On Aug 15, 2008, at 3:00 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm wrote: Also, such a scheme would be, I think, highly susceptible to agenda manipulation: who decides which issue is to be effectively on the ballot, and who decides that the candidates associated with X and not-X are sincere? Citizens are

Re: [EM] [Election-Methods] [english 94%] PR favoring racialminorities

2008-08-15 Thread Kristofer Munsterhjelm
Also, such a scheme would be, I think, highly susceptible to agenda manipulation: who decides which issue is to be effectively on the ballot, and who decides that the candidates associated with X and not-X are sincere? Citizens are free to form such lists. Each list may support and oppose

[EM] [Election-Methods] [english 94%] PR favoring racialminorities

2008-08-15 Thread Raph Frank
Jonathan Lundell wrote: I could see a kind of proxy front end to STV elections. I'm not sure I'm convinced it would be a good idea, or even practical to implement, but suppose that any person or group (including parties) could register an STV ranking, and a voter could select that ranking

Re: [EM] Why We Shouldn't Count Votes with Machines

2008-08-15 Thread Dave Ketchum
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:01:10 +0200 Kristofer Munsterhjelm wrote: Dave Ketchum wrote: Or do we want the voter to be able to cancel the ballot and let the poll workers know that he needs a paper ballot instead that he can mark himself? I'm fine with the latter.