Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance
Hi Rod, Thanks for the lesson! I think I got it. So the restriction only carries to the following line and then you start over fresh right? Not to the rest of the poem right? and when you say not *followed* by as in next (in order) you find a word that has an E, but not followed by a P: does that mean directly followed by or do you mean the whole line of text can't contain that letter at all? you say You can't have any words that already have the following meso letter. so all words in line one would contain no E line two no P line three no R etc. is that right? and then make no corerections to tense or add any 'bridge material'. You say it 'implies the context of the original without including all of the words. So are you saying that you would leave out anywords from a found phrase that has the offending letter and otherwise keep the other words? Sorry that the lines got out of place when posted. Cecil Rod Stasick wrote: Hi Cecil, The first word Reparation can't be used because it already contains your next letter E (rEparation). You can't have any words that already have the following meso letter. I don't know what your original text was, so I can't do what you wanted to do, BUT I can create a mesostic based on repressive guidance and the text that you just gave us. Actually, it'll be unfinished because I don't have enough of your text. First you look for a word that has an R but DOESN'T have the following E: ouR next (in order) you find a word that has an E, but not followed by a P: govErnment then, a P not followed by an R: inausPicious etc...BUT, any wing words (words outside the word that has the mesoletter) can't have the following letter either, so this is part of it's genius - it 'implies the context of the original without including all of the words. ouR govErnment inausPicious to libeRty Engage in counterproductive, immoral baSed fundamentalS In contra-distinction to tyranny. I had to stop there, because even tho there are about 5 more words with the letter V in them, each one of them is followed by the letter E and therefore cannot be used. This is an example of a 50% mesostic. The 100% mesostic limits your word choices even more. Also, being true to it's nature, no words are normally given written changed tenses. The found tenses are kept. It has the distinct advantage of keeping (or giving) the text life - an ever changing perspective that brings new ideas and doesn't necessarily adhere to the old ones. Hope this helps! Rod On 2006 May 19, at 3:23 PM, Cecil Touchon wrote: hey rod, does this work? I took a found phrase from some spam mail (repressive guidance) then I used it as a search term in google then I took one phrase from each resultant web page in the order that they were returned as results finding a phrase that I liked and that contained the spinal letter for that line. [bracketted] elements were added to bind things together when needed. cecil Reparation shall be made [for] those who experienced our govErnment’s abuses of dissenters any form of government inausPicious to liberty, engage[d] in counteRrproductive, immoral pre-emptive war will make their decisions basEd on the four fundamentals. In contra- diStinction to tyranny their bizarre, oppressive tacticS with their own citizens is cause for consIderable concern used to castigate us as a political moVement revealing secrets concErning the security of the state. The liGht of operational experience constrained what they coUld ask entirely in an Indigenous language. Their ahistorical, fear-riDden, repressive approach [attracted] outsiders and reactionAries [who] urgently [a] call for unity calling attentioN to abuses at the highest levels poliCy reform groups all over the world declare never accede to state or cultural policiEs. Rotokas and Mura-Piraha have only 11 phonemes, the smallest on record. --- Now playing: Roger Reynolds - A Portrait Of Vanzetti (1962–63)
Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance
Thanks Allan! I really enjoyed making that work and the way of gathering the lines of text - one line from each document of the search results for the spinal phrase give a bit more structure than my regular way of constructing poems which are more haphazard. If I add the other restriction of each line omitting any words that contain the following spinal letter, then that could add another way to dismiss various phrases and select others - but I am not sure that is needed for my purposes. We'll see. Interesting. So since that is not quite a Mesostic as Rod mentions then I suppose I should come up with some other name like maybe search phrase or spam totems or something. I also do not like words arranged purely by chance as a final result. I do like how material, gathered by chance that is created by a system, allows for serendipity and some personal choices derived from insights caused by the material gathered. That gives the collage/found material element that I am looking for. I also like including a few words of my own [in the brackets] that, for me, gives a little extra touch of direction like adding shading to a form to force it to go behind or in front of something else or inclide it to flow in this or that direction. I like ambiguity but not total confusion or having things so criptic that others won't want to spend their time to figure it out. A certain amount of accessability, I think, is a good thing. I like Cage a lot but his way of working and the resultant works do not always satisfy me. I believe a work of art should inspire one to cherish it. Cecil Allan Revich wrote: Cecil, That is very cool! It will stay that way in my head whether it works or not ;-) Allan From: owner-FLUXLIST@scribble.com [mailto:owner-FLUXLIST@scribble.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Touchon Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 4:24 PM To: FLUXLIST@scribble.com Subject: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance hey rod, does this work? I took a found phrase from some spam mail (repressive guidance) then I used it as a search term in google then I took one phrase from each resultant web page in the order that they were returned as results finding a phrase that I liked and that contained the spinal letter for that line. [bracketted] elements were added to bind things together when needed. cecil Reparation shall be made [for] those who experienced our govErnments abuses of dissenters any form of government inausPicious to liberty, engage[d] in counteRrproductive, immoral pre-emptive war will make their decisions basEd on the four fundamentals. In contra-diStinction to tyranny their bizarre, oppressive tacticS with their own citizens is cause for consIderable concern used to castigate us as a political moVement revealing secrets concErning the security of the state. The liGht of operational experience constrained what they coUld ask entirely in an Indigenous language. Their ahistorical, fear-riDden, repressive approach [attracted] outsiders and reactionAries [who] urgently [a] call for unity calling attentioN to abuses at the highest levels poliCy reform groups all over the world declare never accede to state or cultural policiEs.
Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance
Sure, no prob. These thing are sometimes easier to present in person. Remember these are the two kinds: • 50 percent mesostics: between any two mesoletters, you can't have the second and • 100 percent mesostics: between any two mesoletters, you can't have either. Let's use The Gettysburg Address as the source text and LINCOLN as the spine: Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion-- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth. OK, so we start from the beginning of the text and look for a word that has an L (our first mesoletter) but no I because the next instance of an I will be the next mesoletter. We find the word aLl - notice that we can't use liberty because an i follows in the same word. OK, so we start our mesostic with aLl ...now, continuing in the text, we find the next word that has an I, remembering that our following letter N will be in the next line...and so on... As for the wing words, you can have as many as you want as long as they don't break the rules. Wing words on the right of your spine can't have the FOLLOWING mesoletter included anywhere in it's phrase and wing words on the left of the spine cannot have the PREVIOUS mesoletter included anywhere in it's phrase. So, let's do LINCOLN just once and only use one word for each line (no wing words - we can add those later), we get (if I can line the letters up - MUCH easier on paper!): aLl cIvil testiNg dediCated lOng battLefield portioN By the way, when you come to the last letter in your spine, you act as if you are going to start your spine word over. In other words, for LINCOLN when you come to the last letter - N - you are searching for a word that has an N, that is not followed by a L (your first letter in LINCOLN). OK, so let's add some wing words. There are some exceptions in a few of his works, but, generally, John made no rules about length of the wing words. You can have none...or you can have lots...as long as it doesn't break the mesostic rule that we've been speaking of - repeated letters before the mesoletters. Wing words can be added to make a particular point or create your own special slant on what is or can be said. Punctuation can be implied by it's absence. For example: aLl men are created cIvil testiNg whether that nation so dediCated can lOng endure a great battLefield a portioN of that fieLd [and so on...] This is an example of choosing wing words that allows you to convey, let's say, a patriotic meaning, but, in another instance, you may be able to add just enough wing words to give some *other* implied meaning to the text. and so it goes... Rod --- Now playing: Clarence Wheeler The Enforcers - Right On
Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics LINCOLN
Thanks so much for going into this in patient detail. I needed that. j. --- Rod Stasick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, no prob. These thing are sometimes easier to present in person. Remember these are the two kinds: 50 percent mesostics: between any two mesoletters, you can't have the second and 100 percent mesostics: between any two mesoletters, you can't have either. Let's use The Gettysburg Address as the source text and LINCOLN as the spine: Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion-- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth. OK, so we start from the beginning of the text and look for a word that has an L (our first mesoletter) but no I because the next instance of an I will be the next mesoletter. We find the word aLl - notice that we can't use liberty because an i follows in the same word. OK, so we start our mesostic with aLl ...now, continuing in the text, we find the next word that has an I, remembering that our following letter N will be in the next line...and so on... As for the wing words, you can have as many as you want as long as they don't break the rules. Wing words on the right of your spine can't have the FOLLOWING mesoletter included anywhere in it's phrase and wing words on the left of the spine cannot have the PREVIOUS mesoletter included anywhere in it's phrase. So, let's do LINCOLN just once and only use one word for each line (no wing words - we can add those later), we get (if I can line the letters up - MUCH easier on paper!): aLl cIvil testiNg dediCated lOng battLefield portioN By the way, when you come to the last letter in your spine, you act as if you are going to start your spine word over. In other words, for LINCOLN when you come to the last letter - N - you are searching for a word that has an N, that is not followed by a L (your first letter in LINCOLN). OK, so let's add some wing words. There are some exceptions in a few of his works, but, generally, John made no rules about length of the wing words. You can have none...or you can have lots...as long as it doesn't break the mesostic rule that we've been speaking of - repeated letters before the mesoletters. Wing words can be added to make a particular point or create your own special slant on what is or can be said. Punctuation can be implied by it's absence. For example: aLl men are created cIvil testiNg whether that nation so dediCated can lOng endure a great battLefield a portioN of that fieLd [and so on...] This is an example of choosing wing words that allows you to convey, let's say, a patriotic meaning, but, in another instance, you may be able to add just enough wing words to give some *other* implied meaning to the text. and so it goes... Rod --- Now playing: Clarence Wheeler The Enforcers - Right On __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance
On 2006 May 20, at 2:22 AM, Cecil Touchon wrote: You say it 'implies the context of the original without including all of the words. So are you saying that you would leave out anywords from a found phrase that has the offending letter and otherwise keep the other words? No, you have to stop before you get to a word that has the following mesoletter. The choice of how many wing words is just that - choice and this has been a bugaboo to some folks who'd always thought that Cage made NO choices, but he actually made quite a few choices in his compositions. For me, I think the ideal number of wing words is the minimum number that would convey a thought. If Madawg, for example, decided to write a mesostic with just single words, then there would be nothing anti- mesostic about it. A criteria *could* be that if you could successfully convey what you wanted using the minimum number of words - even NO wing words - then maybe this could be considered a well-done mesostic but, there are really no rules concerning this (except for the main rule). I'm more inclined to enjoy the beauty of how it actually looks on paper with the wing words as well as it's brief expression. There are some other beautiful forms that do this quite well too - the haiku, the autoku, etc... Here's a 100% mesostic on The Gettysburg Address using LINCOLN (no L *OR* I between L and I): equaL so conceIved aNd dediCated lOng fieLd fittiNg we shouLd do thIs larger seNse dediCate hallOw this struggLed coNsecrated worLd wIll Note it Can fOrget Last devotioN highLy dIed Nation Rod --- Now playing: Greg Davis/Steven Hess - 042203(05)
Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance
On 2006 May 20, at 3:12 AM, Cecil Touchon wrote: I also like including a few words of my own [in the brackets] that, for me, gives a little extra touch of direction like adding shading to a form to force it to go behind or in front of something else or inclide it to flow in this or that direction. I like ambiguity but not total confusion or having things so criptic that others won't want to spend their time to figure it out. A certain amount of accessability, I think, is a good thing. I like Cage a lot but his way of working and the resultant works do not always satisfy me. I believe a work of art should inspire one to cherish it. Yes, this is what can make your text pieces *your* text pieces - using whatever methods or rules that you've chosen to give them your own shading - so to speak. I stand on nearly the opposite pole to you Cecil when it comes to John's works. The joy I find in them is precisely from the point that they don't follow the marching feet of syntax. Each letter, syllable, word, and/ or phrase gives breathing room that exists outside the ego and allows my brain to construct sense (or nonsense, if I choose) out of the flow of text. I can look at the previous 100% mesostic of Lincoln's G. A. (or any of John's work) and read it differently each time by placing pauses in ever changing places - with each pause contributing to a different meaning or feeling. For me, it's like looking at a canvas from various angles. I get that feeling with books like Finnegans Wake and the mesostics derived from it too. Same with soft cinema. I think it's great that you can use the mesostic form as a springboard for creating your own brand of poetry. This seems to be one of the creative artist's gift - to be able to use lateral thinking and/or extrapolation to further their creative work. keep us up-to-date, Rod --- Now playing: Sun Ra Arkestra - World Worlds
RE: FLUXLIST: Mesostics Haiku
It is wonDerful I must acCept your Haiku Let's botH move on now ;-) Allan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rod Stasick Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 6:43 PM To: FLUXLIST@scribble.com Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics On 2006 May 19, at 3:46 PM, Allan Revich wrote: The point that I am trying to make is not that I am right or that you (or anybody else) is wrong. The point is that the beauty in Fluxus is that it thrives on diversity and difference rather than on dogma and rigidity. I think that Cage was a genius and that his methods, means, and maybe madness were all beautiful. Getting hung up on pointless minutiae is a waste of time and energy. I have no problem with the way that anybody here decides to write. We can all be as totally goofball as possible...and we can give any kind of name that we want to our writings. BUT it is not pointless minutiae to point out that a form of writing is NOT what it claims to be. If we decide to go in that direction, then I'm going to call this text that you're reading a haiku - OK, so let's call it that - after all, this is Fluxlist and we're just a bunch of CrAzIeS influenced by Fluxus and we're all not hyper-technical here. If people want to put a bunch of words on a page and capitalize any letters to spell out some word they want, then call it something else - you know...uh,Fluxmiddles or...textmiddles or...whatever...but they are NOT mesostics. Why does this matter? Because, by incorrectly calling something a mesostic, you're advancing the lazy-mindedness that so many people possess as well as perpetuating an untruth for no real reason other than convenience. To stop asking questions is death to the soul, death to the imagination, and death to progress - whether personal or social. To answer your question; no, I don't suggest that you follow this guy's examples even if they don't fit with what Cage stated. I suggest that you accept the work of other people as inspired by whomever or whatever they suggest was their inspiration. This guy's statement implies that he's not willing to listen to any criticism - criticism is not welcome. You are asked to do something better. What is this better? To accept that he was influenced by someone else, I can accept this...BUT to incorrectly represent that person when he shows you an incorrect example of THAT person's work is, at best, a misunderstanding and, at worst, a lie. Maybe I'll start a website that says that John Cage said that, in music, anything goes- oh, wait, I think some people have already beaten me to that. Your suggestion that I accept other people's work and their inspiration: I will certainly listen to what they have to say, but if a guy puts up a webpage to tell me that 3 + 2 = 7 and that he'll accept no criticisms (Bill O'Reilly: SHUT UP! SHUT UP, I SAY!) then I most definitely will have something to say about it. What does the place of birth of Maciunas have to do with John Cage or Mesostic poetry anyway? Do you need me to tell you that you are very clever? OK. You are very clever. The sources that I have located to date suggest that he was born in Lithuania, moved from there to Germany, and from Germany to the United States. If you have more accurate information you could probably share it without losing any of your cleverness. My comment was in reference to this statement of yours: 2) Don't get so hung up on minutiae Rod. This is the Fluxus Fluxlist after all, lighten up. If you feel the need to get hyper- technical than you also need to accept that the word mesostic is a neologism in (inconsistent) use by a barely significant percentage of English speakers. As such there is no accepted definition. In other words: Oh well, so what if it's wrong. It's just minutiae. I'm just hyper-technical by pointing out a fact. OK, so let's just say that Maciunas wasn't born in Lithuania. According to your reasoning, and like I said above, we're just Fluxus folks and we shouldn't concern ourselves with such trivialities should we? ...and there's your reasoning that because a barely significant percentage of English speakers are familiar with or actually use something that it's OK to be imprecise because there's no accepted definition is something I just don't buy. The accepted definition is Cage's definition because no matter how many other variations occurred thru the uses of the average unknown artist or the heavyweight variations by well-knowns, he still made it clear throughout his life what the two forms were (the 100% version, he adopted later). The texts done by others were still *variations* - Mac Low's Diastics to give one example. At least Mac Low didn't call them mesostics because he knew that they weren't. end of haiku Rod --- Now playing: Mieko Shiomi - Daniel Spoerri
FLUXLIST: Headline Haiku
Headlines: May 20, 2006 Asia typhoon kills Panel wants Cuba jail closed Mills dogged by bad press Allan Revich
FLUXLIST: Nothing Maxim
There's nothing quite like the mental image of two chimps in tuxedos fighting over nothing.
Re: FLUXLIST: found Fluxus
Monterey Herald May,19,2006: Man arrested in theft of front yard __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
FLUXLIST: nothing
from Pierre Alferi, "Les Allures Naturelles"when nothing entices nothingstirs beyond inertiabecomes agitation impulse aiming atnothing but a nothing in theway and the slightest contactreverses the directional flow (ignorantof being observed through two windows, a strangerdresses, undresses, sits, gets up, lifts up, sets downthe receiver): first the incoherenceof suspended particlesthen the periods. An ordinary movementfilmed in videoa gesture replayed, its spacerun through in every direction likea break-dance whose surface is onlythe other side of the reverse, is alreadysomething else: a formimpassive crystalline.Halvard Johnson[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardhttp://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.comhttp://www.hamiltonstone.org
RE: FLUXLIST: found Fluxus
That's a performance piece that I wish I had seen! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Madawg Painterofdark Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 3:38 PM To: FLUXLIST@scribble.com Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: found Fluxus Monterey Herald May,19,2006: Man arrested in theft of front yard __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics Haiku
On 2006 May 20, at 11:04 AM, Allan Revich wrote: It is wonDerful I must acCept your Haiku Let's botH move on now ;-) Yes, of course! What does IDICHLH refer to? Rod
RE: FLUXLIST: Mesostics Haiku
just having some fun it's a random acrostic a randomostic? A!!an -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rod Stasick Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 8:32 PM To: FLUXLIST@scribble.com Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics Haiku On 2006 May 20, at 11:04 AM, Allan Revich wrote: It is wonDerful I must acCept your Haiku Let's botH move on now ;-) Yes, of course! What does IDICHLH refer to? Rod
FLUXLIST: 100% Seriously Edgy
around the city a brutiSh cop past antiquEs up-and-comeR generally fIts having my camera cOnfiscated I arrived inside which lay the groUndwork for the next wave not So far away, a giant once we crawLed out from under the countrY as a whole was outraged at the sham to take somE risks useD in non-musical ways an electric Guitar edgY is all about cutting, perhaps bleeding edge How about this one Rod? This should be a 100% unless I misunderstood in a given line I dismissed all but one occurance of the spinal letter and any instances of the following spinal letter. OR was it supposed to be the letter before and after? I guess I still don't have it right... you write; aLl cIvil testiNg but say: "between any two mesoletters, you can't have either." and yet in the word cIvil there is the letter 'L' which is inbetween mesoletters "L" and "N" That seems to not be correct unless I don't understand it right. cecil
