Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Michael Schnell]

On 23.03.2017 13:26, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
* - place with whatever name suites you. 


Anders Hejlsberg :)

-Michael
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Marco van de Voort]

In our previous episode, Zo? Peterson said:

> We had to maintain both FPC and Kylix code
> in parallel for several years too, and that undoubtedly made things more
> complicated than they would have been otherwise.  I?ll keep that bias in
> mind in the future.

> > No-one has ever offered to maintain a Libc import unit. It was provided
> > only as a courtesy to Kylix devs.
> 
> That's probably because the Wiki says:
> 
> "The libc unit is deprecated, and frozen in time for Kylix compatibility,
> and won't be ported to other architectures or operating systems."

It is important to realize that the libc unit was never FPC's primary api.

It was _always_ merely a kylix compatibility unit.  Before the current set
the primary api was the "linux" unit, which was later renamed to "unix".

These units already supported *BSD before Kylix even existed.
 
> It also has a long list of other reasons why the entire idea is flawed. 
> We had a rough port to both Linux64 and Darwin32 but never tried to submit
> those changes back for that very reason.

I still think that is a good thing (abandoning unit libc). While
individual calls might be fixable, as a whole it isn't.

If a new effort was made, I'd rather have new libc.so importing units that
were fairly portable to all *nix targets.
 
>   I certainly understand that from a idealogical point of view, but
> if someone doesn?t have the time or knowledge to cover everything, it does
> make it seem like a partial patch wouldn?t be welcome.  OTOH, maybe that
> is intentional, and I can?t say it?s wrong, since it does provide a high
> barrier to expanding the scope of that unit.

Yes. Which is why at least I tried to discourage that whole idea.

It is not just ideological, merely practical. By indicating you are
accepting partial patches you risk either committing them before the other
platforms are ready and setting a bad api/precedent, or leaving the patches
to linger in mantis forever.

Better direct the efforts to something better managable.

> The only thing I can think of that would have been retroactively useful is
> if Libc.pas had included deprecated declarations with messages saying
> where the replacement units/methods are.

The libc unit has had that status since 2003-2005. Deprecated and even more
deprecated-with-messages was a much, much later feature (2.4, 2010?). There
had been only the most minimal patches for unit libc (and virtually no
indications of serious usage) for years by then.

I think a better solution would have been to support large parts of the FPC
api on top of Kylix. But when I reacted with comments like that I was
usually met with a reluctance to invest in Kylix at all. So you get a
catch-22 with still supporting kylix but not investing it, not even to
manage its legacy.


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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Zoë Peterson]

First off, I’m sorry for implying that the current units are insufficient.  I 
just looked through our code and we’re using far fewer “external ‘c’” 
definitions than I thought we were.  The documentation generally looks good 
too, so I assume most of trouble was from not being as familiar with Free 
Pascal’s RTL layout and using search techniques that worked better for 
Delphi/Kylix than for it.  We had to maintain both FPC and Kylix code in 
parallel for several years too, and that undoubtedly made things more 
complicated than they would have been otherwise. I’ll keep that bias in mind in 
the future.

On 3/23/2017 2:40 PM, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
> No-one has ever offered to maintain a Libc import unit. It was provided
> only as a courtesy to Kylix devs.

That's probably because the Wiki says:

"The libc unit is deprecated, and frozen in time for Kylix compatibility, and 
won't be ported to other architectures or operating systems."

It also has a long list of other reasons why the entire idea is flawed.  We had 
a rough port to both Linux64 and Darwin32 but never tried to submit those 
changes back for that very reason.

> That said, if someone steps up and offers to update Libc for all
> supported architectures, she/he is welcome.

This is another instance where you’re (possibly unconsciously) discouraging 
people from submitting patches.  By saying “update ... for all supported 
architectures”, you’re implying that adding Linux64 or Darwin isn’t worth it 
unless they also spend time on ARM, Haiku, and uclibc.  I certainly understand 
that from a idealogical point of view, but if someone doesn’t have the time or 
knowledge to cover everything, it does make it seem like a partial patch 
wouldn’t be welcome.  OTOH, maybe that is intentional, and I can’t say it’s 
wrong, since it does provide a high barrier to expanding the scope of that unit.

In any case, it’s not relevant for us now.  As I said, we recently removed all 
of our Libc.pas usage.

On 3/23/2017 4:29 PM, Marco van de Voort wrote:
> Could you name the mantis items with improvements/problems ?

No, though I’ll try to submit some for the cases where there could be 
improvement.  

The only thing I can think of that would have been retroactively useful is if 
Libc.pas had included deprecated declarations with messages saying where the 
replacement units/methods are.

— 
Zoë Peterson
Scooter Software
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Michael Schnell]

On 23.03.2017 20:40, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
The idea was, and is still today, that you can write applications that 
are

independent of libc, and talk to the kernel directly.
While this usually is the obvious way to go, there are some Arch and OS 
dependent user space things that are hard to perfectly manage in the 
fpc-RTL, but are optimizedly provided in the Arch and OS dependent 
library versions (e.g. Futex and (maybe) threadvar and "Atomic" 
support). I remember that since some time, the Linux Kernel itself 
offers "user space system calls" i.e. a "static" library used to do as 
well certain user space stuff as system calls wrapped in normal 
procedure calls. Astonishingly, last time I checked, Futex has not been 
included in that "library".


-Michael
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Marco van de Voort]

In our previous episode, Michael Van Canneyt said:
> 
> That said, if someone steps up and offers to update Libc for all supported 
> architectures, she/he is welcome. But be warned that this will not be easy.
> The structures depend highly on the CPU. Delphi supports only 2 CPUs (64-bit
> and ARM). FPC slightly more...

And did so in different, less orthogonal times.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Marco van de Voort]

In our previous episode, Zo? Peterson said:
 
> The recommended FPC approach, on the other hand, is a combination of 
> "Use functions from the RTL, BaseUnix, or other random packages" and 
> "Import the relevant functions yourself", and the documentation is "Hope 
> some exists or that adding an fp prefix works". 

The baseunix unit was documented from the start and actually adheres better
to manual pages than unit libc (which quite often uses artefacts from old
kernels and not current mechanisms. Even current by 2003-4 standards)

And the fp prefix, while much maligned is at least systematic. No need to
call _write or so.

Yes, it is less complete, but for that it is portable.

> Add to that, sometimes the RTL does have the imports/record translations
> you need, but doesn't bother to expose them publicly.

> Free Pascal has done great things, and I absolutely appreciate all of 
> it, but not having a good alternative to Libc.pas or Delphi's new 
> Posix.*.pas APIs has definitely been an annoying pain point.

Could you name the mantis items with improvements/problems ?
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Zoë Peterson wrote:


On 3/23/2017 12:31 PM, Marco van de Voort wrote:

It didn't help that some component maintainers like Synapse stuck to the
libc format way too long.  Only in 2007-2009 when FPC on OS X got important
that changed, I still use Indy(10) that switched much earlier to this day.


Having just removed the last vestiges of Libc.pas usage from our own 
project, this is entirely on the heads of the FPC maintainers.  Whatever 
the concerns regarding Libc.pas, it's usage was simple: Add "Libc" to 
your uses clause, look up (extensive) function documentation and sample 
code in the standard Posix man pages and StackOverflow.


The idea was, and is still today, that you can write applications that are
independent of libc, and talk to the kernel directly.

No-one has ever offered to maintain a Libc import unit. 
It was provided only as a courtesy to Kylix devs.


That said, if someone steps up and offers to update Libc for all supported 
architectures, she/he is welcome. But be warned that this will not be easy.

The structures depend highly on the CPU. Delphi supports only 2 CPUs (64-bit
and ARM). FPC slightly more...

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2017-03-23 16:19, Sven Barth via fpc-pascal wrote:
> In the end you'll just need the correct units to do GUI applications 

Yeah, but I don't see Embarcadero going down that route any time soon
[years if at all]. They already can't handle the amount of bug reports,
plus no native IDE for non-Windows platforms (you try and convince a
Linux developer to install Windows just to compile Linux applications).

Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Zoë Peterson]

On 3/23/2017 12:31 PM, Marco van de Voort wrote:

It didn't help that some component maintainers like Synapse stuck to the
libc format way too long.  Only in 2007-2009 when FPC on OS X got important
that changed, I still use Indy(10) that switched much earlier to this day.


Having just removed the last vestiges of Libc.pas usage from our own 
project, this is entirely on the heads of the FPC maintainers.  Whatever 
the concerns regarding Libc.pas, it's usage was simple: Add "Libc" to 
your uses clause, look up (extensive) function documentation and sample 
code in the standard Posix man pages and StackOverflow.


The recommended FPC approach, on the other hand, is a combination of 
"Use functions from the RTL, BaseUnix, or other random packages" and 
"Import the relevant functions yourself", and the documentation is "Hope 
some exists or that adding an fp prefix works".  Add to that, sometimes 
the RTL does have the imports/record translations you need, but doesn't 
bother to expose them publicly.


Free Pascal has done great things, and I absolutely appreciate all of 
it, but not having a good alternative to Libc.pas or Delphi's new 
Posix.*.pas APIs has definitely been an annoying pain point.


--
Zoë Peterson
Scooter Software

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Florian Klämpfl]

Am 23.03.2017 um 19:11 schrieb Sven Barth via fpc-pascal:
> On 23.03.2017 18:35, Florian Klämpfl wrote:
>> Am 23.03.2017 um 16:47 schrieb Mattias Gaertner:
>>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:08:20 +0100 (CET)
>>> Michael Van Canneyt  wrote:
>>>
 [...]
> When did FPC start to run on Linux? 1999?  

 I got the first "hello world" around 1995-1996, I think, 
 together with Mark May. (if memory serves well)
>>>
>>> Well, Delphi didn't start with a "Hello World". So that would be a
>>> little unfair as comparison.
>>> What about the time when FPC was able to compile itself?
>>
>> 9th august 1996 :)
>>
>> Mail from Michael:
> [...]
>>> I think we should synchronise our versions of the compiler. I've put a list
>>> of changes at the end of this mail, so you can update your sources.
>>> before you release the next version of the compiler, I think it would be
>>> nice if you send me the sources, so I can try to compile them under Linux.
>>> This way we can always keep the DOS and Linux version synchronised.
> 
> I take it this was before a version control system was used? :P

Yes, we started to use cvs end of November 1997.

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

On 23.03.2017 18:35, Florian Klämpfl wrote:
> Am 23.03.2017 um 16:47 schrieb Mattias Gaertner:
>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:08:20 +0100 (CET)
>> Michael Van Canneyt  wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
 When did FPC start to run on Linux? 1999?  
>>>
>>> I got the first "hello world" around 1995-1996, I think, 
>>> together with Mark May. (if memory serves well)
>>
>> Well, Delphi didn't start with a "Hello World". So that would be a
>> little unfair as comparison.
>> What about the time when FPC was able to compile itself?
> 
> 9th august 1996 :)
> 
> Mail from Michael:
[...]
>> I think we should synchronise our versions of the compiler. I've put a list
>> of changes at the end of this mail, so you can update your sources.
>> before you release the next version of the compiler, I think it would be
>> nice if you send me the sources, so I can try to compile them under Linux.
>> This way we can always keep the DOS and Linux version synchronised.

I take it this was before a version control system was used? :P

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Florian Klämpfl]

Am 23.03.2017 um 16:47 schrieb Mattias Gaertner:
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:08:20 +0100 (CET)
> Michael Van Canneyt  wrote:
> 
>> [...]
>>> When did FPC start to run on Linux? 1999?  
>>
>> I got the first "hello world" around 1995-1996, I think, 
>> together with Mark May. (if memory serves well)
> 
> Well, Delphi didn't start with a "Hello World". So that would be a
> little unfair as comparison.
> What about the time when FPC was able to compile itself?

9th august 1996 :)

Mail from Michael:

Am 09.08.1996 um 03:37 schrieb Michael Van Canneyt:
> Hello, Florian !
>
> The compiler is now fully functional.
> I've implemented the following to make it possible:
> switches:
>  -Fr for the full name of the error file
>  -Fg path to libgcc.a (needed, because we still link with c)
> environment variables :
>   PPC_ERROR_FILE
>   PPC_GCCLIB_PATH
> respectively. (I suppose it's obvious what they are for)
>
> We're now putting together a package. When it is finished, I'll send it to
> you.
>
> I think we should synchronise our versions of the compiler. I've put a list
> of changes at the end of this mail, so you can update your sources.
> before you release the next version of the compiler, I think it would be
> nice if you send me the sources, so I can try to compile them under Linux.
> This way we can always keep the DOS and Linux version synchronised.

[...]
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Marco van de Voort]

In our previous episode, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) said:
> 
> Well, there was Kylix anyway around 2001 or so, wasn't it? So not like
> supporting Linux is a rocket science, although FPC was definitely first.
> 
> My remark was more about, I still remember, Kylix had his own LibC unit,
> but because of (un)portability reasons, FPC never supported that anywhere
> but on i386. And that was already a source of massive whining, when people
> started to use x86_64 and other platforms, and they tried to compile their
> i386-only Kylix code elsewhere with FPC, and of course FPC was stupid and
> ugly for not supporting the LibC unit elsewhere.

It didn't help that some component maintainers like Synapse stuck to the
libc format way too long.  Only in 2007-2009 when FPC on OS X got important
that changed, I still use Indy(10) that switched much earlier to this day.

The fact that it took Inprise really long to spell out that Kylix was dead
didn't help either.

Note that the Linux unit in 1.0.x had the same faults as unit libc, except
its size. (and that includes being outdated, but I guess that goes for the
2.x style *nix rtl now too, since it is 13 years old last christmas)

The BSD maintaince of 1.0.x was truly a horror compared to 2.x, as the 1.0.x
BSD rtl was more a ifdefed version of the Linux RTL than something in its
own right.

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Giuliano Colla]

Il 23/03/2017 17:19, Sven Barth via fpc-pascal ha scritto:
In the end you'll just need the correct units to do GUI applications 
as well though one would need to do everything by hand as there'd be 
no VCL or FM :P


IOW with the newest Delphi for Linux you're in a worse condition than 
using old Kylix!


We are still supporting a lot of old Kylix applications, and, when I'm 
too lazy to bring up a VM with an old Linux supporting the Kylix IDE, I 
just edit the files using Lazarus, and then compile the app using dcc 
which still runs on today's distro's (provided you supply it the 
required Kylix libraries). Even the app runs on today distro's, provided 
you feed it with its 32 bit libraries.


Whenever possible we migrate the app to Lazarus, and then you feel like 
updating a Lazarus 0.9x app to Lazarus 1.6!


Giuliano



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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Mattias Gaertner wrote:


On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:08:20 +0100 (CET)
Michael Van Canneyt  wrote:


[...]
> When did FPC start to run on Linux? 1999? 

I got the first "hello world" around 1995-1996, I think, 
together with Mark May. (if memory serves well)


Well, Delphi didn't start with a "Hello World". So that would be a
little unfair as comparison.
What about the time when FPC was able to compile itself?


Pretty soon after that. So end of 1996, I think. 
I never liked cross-compiling.


Michael.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Am 23.03.2017 13:05 schrieb "Graeme Geldenhuys" <
mailingli...@geldenhuys.co.uk>:
>
> Hi,
>
> Just thought I would mention, yesterday Delphi 10.2 was released which
> includes Linux support (I assume a cross-compiler). It is only available
> in the Enterprise edition product line though, and only Linux Server
> style apps are supported (no GUI/desktop apps).

In the end you'll just need the correct units to do GUI applications as
well though one would need to do everything by hand as there'd be no VCL or
FM :P

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)]

Hi,

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Mattias Gaertner wrote:

> > > When did FPC start to run on Linux? 1999?
> >
> > I got the first "hello world" around 1995-1996, I think,
> > together with Mark May. (if memory serves well)
>
> Well, Delphi didn't start with a "Hello World". So that would be a
> little unfair as comparison. What about the time when FPC was able to
> compile itself?

Well, there was Kylix anyway around 2001 or so, wasn't it? So not like
supporting Linux is a rocket science, although FPC was definitely first.

My remark was more about, I still remember, Kylix had his own LibC unit,
but because of (un)portability reasons, FPC never supported that anywhere
but on i386. And that was already a source of massive whining, when people
started to use x86_64 and other platforms, and they tried to compile their
i386-only Kylix code elsewhere with FPC, and of course FPC was stupid and
ugly for not supporting the LibC unit elsewhere.

So if this Delphi for Linux sticks around for a while, I predict the same
happening all over again (just with feature X)... And I "pray" to be wrong
on this.

Charlie
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Mattias Gaertner]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:08:20 +0100 (CET)
Michael Van Canneyt  wrote:

>[...]
> > When did FPC start to run on Linux? 1999?  
> 
> I got the first "hello world" around 1995-1996, I think, 
> together with Mark May. (if memory serves well)

Well, Delphi didn't start with a "Hello World". So that would be a
little unfair as comparison.
What about the time when FPC was able to compile itself?


Mattias
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Mattias Gaertner wrote:


On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:15:20 +0100 (CET)
"Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)"  wrote:


Hi,

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

> Just thought I would mention, yesterday Delphi 10.2 was released which
> includes Linux support (I assume a cross-compiler). It is only available
> in the Enterprise edition product line though, and only Linux Server
> style apps are supported (no GUI/desktop apps). 


I can't wait until we get the blame that Free Pascal on Linux is now
incompatible with Delphi on Linux...


When did FPC started to run on Linux? 1999?


I got the first "hello world" around 1995-1996, I think, 
together with Mark May. (if memory serves well)


Michael.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Marco van de Voort]

In our previous episode, Mattias Gaertner said:
> > > in the Enterprise edition product line though, and only Linux Server
> > > style apps are supported (no GUI/desktop apps).  
> > 
> > I can't wait until we get the blame that Free Pascal on Linux is now
> > incompatible with Delphi on Linux...
> 
> When did FPC started to run on Linux? 1999?

It was there already in 1997. From the copyrights in the old units I think
it is rather 1995.  The old pre 2.0 Linux unit even had kernel 1.xisms in
it.

Afaik the Embarcidera Delphi Linux is ARC based btw.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Michael Ring]

At least not from me, I felt already ripped off by Embarcadero by not 
delivering on their promise to bring Linux last summer (Fortunately I 
did not renew my Pro-Subscription). Seeing that they wanted to do a 2nd 
rip off by only giving it to Enterprise customers reassured me that that 
decision was a good one.


So for me Freepascal is the master, not only on x86_64 linux but also on 
armhf-linux, arm embedded, wonder how long it takes Embarcadero to make 
their product available on arm-linux.


So guys, pleae keep up your phantastic work, and goodby Delphi, we have 
been together since the good old Turbo-Pascal times, but you have 
changed into a money sucking beast, it breaks my heart but I am gone.


Michael

Am 23.03.17 um 13:15 schrieb Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR):

Hi,

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:


Just thought I would mention, yesterday Delphi 10.2 was released which
includes Linux support (I assume a cross-compiler). It is only available
in the Enterprise edition product line though, and only Linux Server
style apps are supported (no GUI/desktop apps).

I can't wait until we get the blame that Free Pascal on Linux is now
incompatible with Delphi on Linux...

Charlie
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Mattias Gaertner]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:15:20 +0100 (CET)
"Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)"  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
> 
> > Just thought I would mention, yesterday Delphi 10.2 was released which
> > includes Linux support (I assume a cross-compiler). It is only available
> > in the Enterprise edition product line though, and only Linux Server
> > style apps are supported (no GUI/desktop apps).  
> 
> I can't wait until we get the blame that Free Pascal on Linux is now
> incompatible with Delphi on Linux...

When did FPC started to run on Linux? 1999?


Mattias
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2017-03-23 12:15, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) wrote:
> I can't wait until we get the blame that Free Pascal on Linux is now
> incompatible with Delphi on Linux...


That crossed my mind too. God(*) help us all!



* - place with whatever name suites you.


Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Delphi for Linux is out

[Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)]

Hi,

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

> Just thought I would mention, yesterday Delphi 10.2 was released which
> includes Linux support (I assume a cross-compiler). It is only available
> in the Enterprise edition product line though, and only Linux Server
> style apps are supported (no GUI/desktop apps).

I can't wait until we get the blame that Free Pascal on Linux is now
incompatible with Delphi on Linux...

Charlie
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