Re: [FRIAM] Graph/Network discursion.

Yes, absolutely! The arguments about the ambiguity of terms like complex, model, layer, and the capitalization of words in programming languages fall squarely in the ontologies domain. And that means they fall under graph and network theory, though I think "labelled transition systems" might be

Re: [FRIAM] IS: Does Complexity have a circularity problem WAS: Any non-biological complex systems?

Nicholas, I hear your plea and would come to your defense if we were closer. I have a small story that explains my attitude to layer from anAdvanced Composite Engineering view point. It took me probably 3 years to eradicate the word in my laboratory We were using various materials and

Re: [FRIAM] Graph/Network discursion.

Given that we have been splitting hairs on terminology, I wanted to at least OPEN the topic that has been grazed over and over, and that is the distinction between Model, Metaphor, and Analogy. I specifically mean 1. Mathematical Model 2.

Re: [FRIAM] Graph/Network discursion.

OK, we can hold off on beating this horse until a more specific and relevant example arrives on the scene, then we can lead him to water and hold him under whether he drinks or not.! On 6/9/17 1:56 PM, gepr ⛧ wrote: I'm not entirely sure to be honest. But I know they must contain cycles. So

Re: [FRIAM] Graph/Network discursion.

Not quite letting this drowning horse gurgle in peace, I realized that I brought up the Ontology/Joslyn paper because of the Ontology issue and alignment/resolution of Lexicons (or more apropos Ontologies). The Gene Ontology was chosen for this project because it was one of the more mature

[FRIAM] Model, Metaphor, Analogy

I meant to spawn a fresh proto-thread here, sorry. Given that we have been splitting hairs on terminology, I wanted to at least OPEN the topic that has been grazed over and over, and that is the distinction between Model, Metaphor, and Analogy. I specifically mean 1. Mathematical Model

Re: [FRIAM] IS: Does Complexity have a circularity problem WAS: Any non-biological complex systems?

Heh, you're so rife with premature registration! You _leap_ to thinking about the strength of the onion analogy without seeming to listen to what I'm saying at all. 8^) That's OK. I'm used to it. But to be clear, my point was about _direction_, not the extent to which layers are coupled.

Re: [FRIAM] IS: Does Complexity have a circularity problem WAS: Any non-biological complex systems?

Because, as Steve rightly pointed out with that Joslyn paper, the point is the extent to which the system submits to ordering. A strict hierarchy (levels, like I think EricS drew) submits to a total order, whereas a brranching hierarchy (still levels) submits to a partial order. Graphs work,

[FRIAM] more importantly!

A Hypothesis-Free Sensor Array Discriminates Whiskies for Brand, Age, and Taste http://www.cell.com/chem/fulltext/S2451-9294%2817%2930174-2?dom=icopyright=syn# -- ␦glen? FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30

Re: [FRIAM] IS: Does Complexity have a circularity problem WAS: Any non-biological complex systems?

"strata in geology have *some* precedent (shears and folds) for that, but I can't think of a biological example" Epidermis, dermis, hypodermis? They interact. Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jun 9, 2017 10:12 PM, "Steven A Smith" wrote: > Vlad - > > I find your

Re: [FRIAM] Graph/Network discursion.

Glen - Thanks for the complementary concept of "labelled transition systems" (generalization of "state diagram"?) to juxtapose with Graph and Network. The trouble with reduction to a unified ontology is also critical, because I think the majority of the problem we're struggling with (writ

Re: [FRIAM] IS: Does Complexity have a circularity problem WAS: Any non-biological complex systems?

Frank and the Congregation, Shame on me for neglecting the obvious biological intermingling but stress redistribution is so mechanical and direction sensitive it never dawned on me. But what I did is more like weaving using nodes as intersection points without breaking the filaments.

Re: [FRIAM] IS: Does Complexity have a circularity problem WAS: Any non-biological complex systems?

Vlad - I find your use/choice/settling-upon "lamina/laminae" seems very motivated, though I can't articulate why. I suppose because it has some connotation related to concepts like "laminar flow" which is structurally similar to the vulgar (your implication not mine) "layer" which connotes

Re: [FRIAM] tools, trollers, and language

Re Troll & OP, like Steve said. Re discussions amongst people who disagree: I just read that analysis of voice & speech patterns could reveal concussion related brain damage far before normal methods. Possibly, like IdeaTree, analysing the structure, grammar, word choice, etc of a conversation,

Re: [FRIAM] IS: Does Complexity have a circularity problem WAS: Any non-biological complex systems?

Hi, glen, Great! I am learning stuff. I am happy to learn more about onions. In fact, now wish I knew more. It seems like onions develop from the inside out, right? The outside layer is just the first inside layer grown large. I think if one examines the whole onion plant, one finds

Re: [FRIAM] IS: Does Complexity have a circularity problem WAS: Any non-biological complex systems?

On 06/09/2017 09:41 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > It seems like onions develop from the inside out, right? Heh, I don't know. Nor do I care because my analogy is not intended to be anything more than an analogy. >8^D >The outside layer is just the first inside layer grown large. I think if one

Re: [FRIAM] IS: Does Complexity have a circularity problem WAS: Any non-biological complex systems?

Glen, But wait a minute! Holding a side the mathematical meaning of model for a minute, what is the difference between a model and a metaphor? I assume you take your models seriously, right? I don't know what it means, "Just an analogy". Either your layers are onion-like or not, right?

Re: [FRIAM] IS: Does Complexity have a circularity problem WAS: Any non-biological complex systems?

Ha! I don't know if this is fun or not. But you are making me giggle. So that's good. 8^) On 06/09/2017 11:54 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > But wait a minute! Holding a side the mathematical meaning of model for a > minute, what is the difference between a model and a metaphor? I recently

[FRIAM] Graph/Network discursion.

Glen - At the risk of boring the rest of the crowd silly, I'd be interested in hearing more about the kinds of graphs you would like to talk about. I agree that Partially Ordered Sets are a (relatively) special case. My interest is in the structure/function duality, more in topological

Re: [FRIAM] Graph/Network discursion.

I'm not entirely sure to be honest. But I know they must contain cycles. So DAGs are inadequate, hence my revulsion at the word "level". On June 9, 2017 12:37:39 PM PDT, Steven A Smith wrote: >Glen - > >At the risk of boring the rest of the crowd silly, I'd be interested in >

Re: [FRIAM] IS: Does Complexity have a circularity problem WAS: Any non-biological complex systems?

Sorry. Slip of the "pen". Layers it is. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: