processes. What is happening when we see a
bird in the sky, how to we see, how do we process and how do we react is a
process - a series of steps. The particular content within the process may
be different, but the process can and should be accurately described.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
Thomas Lunde:
Caspr Davies, who posted the original article, and has written a thoughtful
essay as a follow-up. I find his conclusions in line with my own and taking
the liberty of supporting a kindred soul, I am posting them to the Lists
that I posted his original article too.
Respectfully
the labor that the knowledge sector casts off or the
labor cast off by other sectors that the knowledge sector fails to absorb.
When we finally get around to asking "What comes after knowledge work?" we
have to admit that there is no answer.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
-Original Message-
Fr
From: Sam Lanfranco [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: February 12, 1999 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: [GKD] Training Y2K Specialists
Since a Canadian (Thomas Lunde), having taken a preliminary look at
Canada, has asked: where are all the workers and where is all the
training, to dea
Robert wrote:
I'd like to ask you all for your visions for the development of the
regular amount of working hours in the next 5, 10, 20 years!
Thomas:
It will depend on subsistence. If we become owners of intelligent robots,
we may evolve into a non working environment, the best of the
was valued no matter
what they did or didn't do, just because they were there, would this be my
number one choice. I can see it laid out in different ways but the end
result is the same. Peace on Earth.
Sherry Martin
-Original Message-
From: Robert Neunteufel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Thomas Lu
Dear Michael:
While I have been navel gazing on some abstractions, I have let slide
comments on some very good posts, yours among them. Robert Vazola has
raised three very interesting questions which did not receive much feedback.
-Original Message-
From: Michael Gurstein [EMAIL
A Message to the Middle Class on the Financing of:
The Family Basic Income Proposal
by Thomas Lunde
August 27, 1998
There once was a race of people of high achievement who believed that the
value of their Civilization arose from their relationship with the Sun.
They made the Sun their God
Ed Said:
Very interesting, Thomas. But who would actually bell the cat? Despite
the
many efforts of high idealists like the World Federalists, we don't have a
global super government, and given the increasing divisions between the
various parts of the world, it is most unlikely that we will
-Original Message-
From: pete [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: September 2, 1998 8:46 PM
Subject: FW: Re: Basic income
"Thomas Lunde" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thomas: Population is a problem, but
The Numbers
In round numbers, Canadas population is 30 million and if every citizen
received the Basic Income, the total cost would be $450 billion. Canadas
current budget is $150 billion leaving a shortfall of $300 billion. Seems
pretty impossible, doesnt it?
Just for example, lets say
2. The second feature is the redistribution of income. Currently, income
earned from wages is taxed more than income from other sources such as
investment and corporate taxes. This has created a major imbalance in that
income tax accounts for 70% of government revenue while corporate taxes
The Family Basic Income Proposal
by Thomas Lunde
March 9, 1998
Money, we all need it, but too few of us are getting it. Traditionally, we
got money through work or investment. One of the millennium crises, is the
collapse of work as a means of getting money for many people. Nowhere
llions of people in Bangladesh, it is when you have nothing that
it seems and often is hopeless.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
Talk about a country on the edge, Bangladesh is having more problems.
It seems a prime example of overpopulation with collapse just a matter of
time.
Ed
Basic Income will be preferable to the evaluation of the current Indian
Affairs Dept. If there are cases were a top up is needed, then I leave it
to the government with it's 50 Billion to make the necessary adjustment.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
Ed Weick
to prevent speculators of
speculative capitalism from totally ruining the world. But basically, it is
the statement "subordinating the needs of finance to those of people," that
indicate to me that there might be some hope for us yet.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
live in
One Flew Over the Cuckoo Nest of neo-con philosophy. If you have any
further doubt as to why we are in such a financial mess, other great
decisions of Trudeau, Mulroney, and Chretien could be examined to find their
common sense.
Repsectfully,
Thomas Lunde
Dear Mr. Taylor,
I am
Dear Rob:
A small correction on authorship. The quote was made by the columnist
Weisman, the remarks ascribed to Mr. Krugman refered to "capital accounts".
Thomas
-Original Message-
From: Rob Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Thomas Lunde [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Future W
vulnerable. When the
individual officers, who have access to the worst case scenerios start
making investments to protect their families, I think it is time to pay
attention.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
-- Forwarded message --
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 23:04:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan
dialectic between opposite understandings?
MM
Thomas Lunde wrote:
In a world of pure self-interest, can there be any paradigms of
communication?
Thomas: This question sounds like one of those zen koans where
you
feel
there should be an obvious answer and every tim
inate the competition and
gain more market share. Therefore someone is losing all the time, while
someone is also winning. My guess is that in the long run, greed will win
out.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Thomas Lunde
Bob
--
___
like to brand about when the
idea of (democratic) socialism is mentioned?
Thomas:
Again, I agree with you Eva, that some of the arguments that have been made
are disengenuous (= having secret motives, not sincere) in regards to other
positions that these individuals have taken.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
Eva
Dear Heiner:
Sorry for not including the original post of yours from which I got the URL
to Peter's web page at www.metaself.org/. So here is your orginal post and
the URL's should anyone else want to read them.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
YOU REALLY HAVE AN INTERSTING LIST THERE: "Cu
-Original Message-
From: Thomas Lunde [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Future Work [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: September 6, 1998 6:00 PM
Subject: Apoligies to Mark Measday
Dear Mark:
Before you flame me, let me apoligise, as I read this posting, the comment
"you'll have the answer you stupid
and shelter for working with nature rather than against it which is
what so much of employment consists of today. A truly radical idea and in
line with some of the Japanese cultural developments in terms of their
gardening, tea ceremonies and respect for nature.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
who play the
shell game.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
-Original Message-
From: M.J. Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: September 19, 1998 2:12 PM
Subject: C4LDEMOC-L: Look who's Tory now
As some people may know, the federal Torys are choosing a new
hat no one could foresee that will change the
direction of the country in significant ways.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
PS: Here is David Orchards URL www.davidorchard.com.
-Original Message-
From: M.Blackmore [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECT
ct Western Investors.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
-Original Message-
From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: September 20, 1998 5:25 AM
Subject: The next IMF loan to Russia
It seems certain that, even if only for humanitarian reasons, the IMF
what David or the others would do regarding some of our current
issues.
I hope I have given you a little more info. And if I find out about your
status, I will promptly E Mail you the information.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
-Original Message-
From: M.Blackmore [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL
d to raise the hackles of Thomas
Lunde, among others. The objection to a basic income scheme centres on the
issue of "moral hazard", which is to say that basic income offers an
incentive to people to be idle.
Thomas:
"to be idle", what an evocative phrase. Somehow the fact that most
sibilities argument unproductive. I have many concerns which
I express on FutureWork but "responsibilites" are not one of them. I tend
to think in terms of cooperation and sharing, rather than duties and
responsibilities.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
Comments welcome.
Steven Kurtz
Fitzwilliam NH
can engage in, then I am against it for the result it
creates. Every behavior them becomes open to someone else's scrutiny and
from that follows judgement and from that follows punishment. That kind of
society is commonly known as facism. No set of rules is perfect, no set of
rule enforcers a
;true" one?
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
The Y2K problem is not the result of anything resembling a consipiracy; it
is the result of a mindset.
When the programmer told the boss in 1970 that this wouldn't work after
1999, the boss said, "It will have been replaced long before then!"
W
Thomas:
Reluctantly, I will allow this thread to get a little more lengthy as
holding the previous posts in memory often helps understand the current
answers/questions.
At 03:48 AM 2/10/99 -0500, Thomas Lunde wrote:
Now, assuming a shortage of qualified personnel, I would expect every
Dear Tom:
A masterly analysis. Run for Parliament - the country needs these ideas.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
-Original Message-
From: Tom Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: February 19, 1999 12:26 PM
Subject: The Prosperity Covenant
, as in the case of the rabbits, the foxes and wolfs
also die off.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
to operating procedure in which any lie which serves the
goal of self interest is preferable to any action which may be morally right
and perhaps not serve the goal of self interest has become the dominant
paradigm.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
-Original Message-
From: Jay Hanson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Future Work [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: August 29, 1998 12:35 PM
Subject: It's our final exam
Jay:
Unfortunately, there are no other alternatives. Once we overshot
carrying
capacity we were left with only two choices:
"Carrying
rting studies. Them folks
in Bangladesh better stop fighting floods and check out their depression
meter, there will be lots of grants given in Harvard and Yale to prove or
disprove this vitally important new set of insights.
Defined by science,
I remain your shallow correspondent,
Thomas Lunde
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
This may be a double posting as I sent this out last week but have not seen
it posted - perhaps in our changing to Waterloo it got lost or I don't know
how to find it in the new system - anyway - here it is again
This is in response to Mr. Mueller's comments on land reform as a potential
The more I read and study this problem of unemployment, the more I am led
to the conclusion that the "root" causes lay within our capitalistic system
of distributing goods and services which are produced by human beings in
activities that we selectively label "employment". Many of the other
The Growth Illusion by Douthwaite
Quote from Chapter 9
What Has All the Growth Done
Page 168
I just love this little anecdote that follows, which, vast reader that I
am, had never heard of before. Imagine learning it from a book by an Irish
professor over 25 years after the events described
This was an essay I developed in response to Ed Mueller's comments on land
reform before we closed the Colorado address. I do not think it made it
onto FW list and I hope this isn't a duplicate posting, but I put a lot of
work in it and developed some viewpoints so here goes again.
Thomas
Will My Daughters Be Serfs?
I have just spent a couple of hours reading Fossilgate which was on the
FutureWork List. It was about as exciting as a trip through Dante's
Inferno on your deathbed, in fact it could be an industrialized version of
the future for consumers rather than souls.
The
I was responding to a friend on the West Coast who has been a bus driver
for BC Transit for the last 25 years and who E Mailed me about his car
troubles. (soon to be a thing of the past) I started to answer and this
little tale rolled out of my humerous side. I share it with you in the
spirit
Magic word, overcapacity, read instead the shift of income from labour to
investment income over the last 20 or so years has literally taken money
out of the consumer market where it could buy goods and services and
circulate - this lack of money in the consumer market has been compensated
for
e list, a question.
What standard could the world use as a basis for the valuation of money
other than GDP and the market that would be fair, policable, eliminate
inflation and bring some reality to the exchange of goods and services and
taxes?
Respectfully
Thomas Lunde
On checking my "sent" file, I find that I have posted this essay but when I
reviewed my FW file, I could not determine whether it was posted, perhaps
it got lost on the shift of hosts, if not, my apoligies.
The more I read and study this problem of unemployment, the more I am led
to the
The posting of "Fossilgate" and the other web sites of information included
in that posting coincided with my reading of "Friendly Fascism" by Bertrand
Gross. This has turned out to be one of the most seminal books I have ever
read, both in its depth and range. That it is not quoted
The Growth Illusion by Douthwaite
Growth in the Greenhouse Chapter 11
Page 210
A little preamble for this lengthy quote. This is the second of three
chapters that deal with pollution, the environment and how it has been
affected by the growth of industrialism. From one of my old Whole Earth
Quotes from The Growth Illusion by Richard Douthwaite
Page 82
Chapter Ned Ludd was Right
I start this quote after a metaphor in which he used an imaginary country
called Erewhon to illustrate his statement, "One of the distortions was
that new technologies made people redundant without the
The Growth Illusion by Douthwaite
Quote from Chapter 9
What Has All the Growth Done
Page 168
I just love this little anecdote that follows, which, vast reader that I
am, had never heard of before. Imagine learning it from a book by an Irish
professor over 25 years after the events described
Dear Arthur,
This article, like those I read in the Ottawa Citizen almost every day seem
to be saying "everything is coming up roses." I am reminded of Douthwaite
and his concept of a "chain letter economy." I don't know if you have had
any experience with multi-level marketing - it's polite
Almost all educated people today, know a lot about
very little. I try to know a little about a lot of
things.
I am responding to this quote publicly from a private conversation.
One of the major insights from Marshal McLuhan's work that has not been
fully explored is the concept that
Well, let's assume you are right. That your half century of teaching has
produced a profound truth and that this is the way it really is. Man's
desires are unlimited. Certainly the evidence in the daily paper seems to
substantiate this idea. Self interest reigns supreme. We, collectively,
--something that we all desire.
Thomas Lunde
I guess you and I have a different idea of crime. In my small world, I
acknowledge two types of criminals. One, the guy or gal who breaks the law
and gets five or 10 years deduction of their life in prison for the
conditions created by governments
of carbon
fuels with the by product of Co2 emissions.
Respectfully
Thomas Lunde
s finding of technological or
scientific solutions, which is the hope of the optimist, seems to me the
best we can hope for.
I will be interested in responses.
Thomas Lunde
Thursday 23 October 1997
Clinton's plan hit from all sides
WASHINGTON - U.S. President Bill Clinton looked for middle gro
Thomas Lunde
Perhaps I don't understand, if so, please enlighten me. On Oct 22, 1997
President Clinton gave a major speech on the Environment which I have
commented on. On Oct 24, 1997, giving a major speech on the upcoming visit
of the President of China, he outlined 4 critical areas of American
concern.
When the Dow opened this morning, Tues Oct 28, it looked like a losing day,
by noon the market was climbing and finished over 300 pts.
I was speculating, was it traders from other markets in the world who
picked the US and Canadian markets as the most probable to remain secure or
was it
y can have
more jelly beans in their jar. Personally, it would seem to me a
predilection for the capitalistic model is either the result of propaganda
and cultural programming or outright mental deviance.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
Subject: competition/contradiction
I asked for a contribution in
Ottawa Citizen
November 5, 1997
Business Page D 2
45,000 apply for 1,2000 jobs at Honda plant
Toronto --- A trickle of job seekers has turned into a flood at Honda of
Canada in Alliston, Ontario, as 45,000 people have applied for 1,200 new
jobs in just ten days.
"It is astounding," Vaughn
of capitalism's meltdown?
Anyway, thanks for your good answer Alan.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
respective governments be any better or worse. I
would gladly enter into a debate with anyone who postulates that the
current system elects a quality member.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
ot;savings" in the manner that Krugman indicates?
A follow-up question is, "If this is common knowledge, what is the
reasoning behind the government transfer of emphasis on private pension
plans dependent on the stock market over universal pensions such as CPP?"
Respectfully
Thomas Lunde
Thomas Lunde
, deceive or monopolize.
Harry Best, however, is not to give the lucrative privilege in the first
place.(Georgism)
Thomas I guess George, you and I finally have found some common ground on
this issue.
But, that's too radical
Harry
Respectfully
Thomas Lunde
. I think some of the comments Eva made are very valid.
Respectfully
Thomas Lunde
not buying our expensive exports. A large trade
deficit could drive us to the wall very quickly.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
Dear Charles,
Just a note to say I am reading all your posts and learning a lot. I have
nothing at the moment to contribute but I appreciate your thoughts and
expertise.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
mself from Netenyahu and
Israel. Is this all somehow connected? I will be interested to hear some
responses from our many able commentators.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
LE MONDE DIPLOMATIQUE - English Edition - AUGUST, SEPT
lcome to the future of your grandchildren if we continue on this
capitalistic madness.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
s evening, I will sit down and
do a little welfare fraud, income tax cheating, networking among my friends
for a little special privilege, you know, those things the elites do on
their day off.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
Dear Mary,
Thank you for acknowledging my post, but for some reason, I feel their is
more to your response than you are telling us. Join in, it is only when
the disadvantaged speak their truth that others learn.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
labour with the concept of a Basic Income for all
which would destroy in many cases the power of employers and allow a
honesty and independence to employees that they do not now have with their
income dependent on a job and in our society, an income is life.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
als such as yourself and others who
have posted really great stuff to this list and have other private efforts
are a rarity though the quality of the few makes up for the apathy of the
many.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
--
From: Barry Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Your
heir repertoire and would lead to more consensus, if not to
total agreement, at least all parties would be party to expanded
information which would sway some who did not have the required information
to make a well reasoned decision in their original vote cast.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
If you can
Dear Charles Brass, - you wrote:
phrase which means some organisation owns a
significant portion of your life
I like it - good insight. Not only do you leave your democratic rights at
the door, like a soldier, you agree to let incompetent individuals create
ridiculous circumstances for
Dear Barry, - you wrote:
These academic guys are really very smart, but they are held back by the
invisible venal-ideology. They may wake-up soon. Maybe we should scare
them. We are all being goosed by the invisible hand?
Right on, I would add that the hardest mind to change is the mind that
participate because it is of interest to you, as there is no
reward to be had from others.
Let the adventure begin!
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
Author 1
In 1959, Sir Charles Snow published the "Two Cultures and the Scientific
Revolution," which was both the title and the subject of the Rede Lecture
he had given earlier at Cambridge University. The lecture was intended to
illuminate what Sir Charles saw as a great problem of our age -
FORWARDED MESSAGE
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:40:04 -0800
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
From: David Weston [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Global Brain No.147: Billionaires and the Cancer of Affluence
THE RECORD, a remarkable, independent, progessive, regional
newspaper from Nootka Sound
m totality
of what I am - no punch's pulled.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
--
From: Arthur Cordell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: future [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: questions
Date: January 2, 1998 10:10 AM
Good wishes to all on the FW list. If you feel boredom coming on in the
new year, yo
nt, I get frustrated with words.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
Douthwaite pointed out, local owners have to invest in their
community rather than taking capital out.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
of the current
list as it is. I apologize in advance if I have offended anyone by my
characterizations of their viewpoint or contribution, this is a personal
statement based on my unique experience - not a general or world
truth.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
has hardly been mentioned in terms of content, contracts or
effect.
Theory is fine, but anecdotal stories are very
important to flesh out theory. I look forward to reading some of the
success of these ideas.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
those were my thoughts and I thank you for your interest.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
-Original Message-
From: Dr. Khin Ni Ni Thein [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Thomas Lunde [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: February 4, 1998 2:03 PM
Subject: Request
Dear Sir,
I support your view. Could I forward your
Hi FWer's:
Some of my recent reading has asked me to
consider some serious questions, questions which need to be discussed and
critiqued. I will pose some of these questions and see what kind of
responses the questions evoke. For example:
Given that the concept of a Basic Income,
Tom Walker answered:
I'd have a look at John Maurice Clark's writing
on labour as an overheadcost (in his _Studies in the Economics of Overhead
Costs_). Thejustification is that a wage system is no longer appropriate to
the way thata modern economy works. The wage system is a form of
Dear FW'ers:
Well, my question seems to have spurred a number
of lurkers into the open and I must say that I have been delightfully reading
your answers - though I have the feeling that we have not yet answered the
question. To that end, let me quote the economist Theobald who maintains
that will finally overturn the current paradigm.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
Eva Durant wrote:
In the strongest economy, even the cut-backbenefit system
creates enormous deficits forpublic expenditure. So how do you
envisagein our present economic structure a basic income?
Thomas:
Well, I don't. But that is not my concern
at the moment. My concern is to try and
, the answer may well be no.
Can we find a compelling reason that will be
acceptable to those who work as well as those who work but don't get paid - that
is my challenge.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
? What about criminals who act our of anger because of their
poverty. Might not a Basic income eliminate a considerable percentage of
crime?
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
Dear Sally,
I have been ignoring them as it seems the
messages go through.
FROM:
Adminstrator
TO: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
DATE: 02-23-98
TIME: 13:30 SUBJECT: Mail
failure
--
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