are talking about
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 8, 2013, at 9:56 AM, kaps k opaquelove2...@yahoo.co.in wrote:
most cruel response ! Apartheid exists here alsoThe Haves look down
upon the Have Nots and make fun of them...This is a cruel fun indeed
, kaps k opaquelove2...@yahoo.co.in wrote:
most cruel response ! Apartheid exists here alsoThe Haves look down
upon the Have Nots and make fun of them...This is a cruel fun indeed.
From: Aditya Bondyopadhyay adit.b...@gmail.com
To: gay_bombay
most cruel response ! Apartheid exists here alsoThe Haves look down
upon the Have Nots and make fun of them...This is a cruel fun indeed.
From: Aditya Bondyopadhyay adit.b...@gmail.com
To: gay_bombay@yahoogroups.com gay_bombay@yahoogroups.com
Manu was not a tribal.Pls correct yourselfYou also seem to follow the
distorted views that Nehru once spread under the guise of being so called
intellectual.but his hidden agenda was something else...
From: vgd67 vg...@yahoo.co.uk
To:
Hi, am forwarding an Interview of Sridhar Rangayan that appeared in
Society magazine
~Nirmal~
Society Magazine | June2010
Pages 66 - 70
Quotes:
Me being gay does not conflict with me being a devout Hinduwho
prays to God everyday or me being an India. All of them coexist and
Hi, I will be visiting Cochin 19th and 20th of this month a very shot visit
anyone who is familiar can take me around and more over I am looking forward to
meet young guys like minded and I will promise on my subsequent visit to this
place which I will be makeing I may be meeting
them. My stat
Hi,
I was wondering if anybody knows the dates for Delhi Queer fest 2009.
Thanks
Dear Sanjay,
I had a hearty laugh at your last sentence...do u expect this gentleman called
Aditya be ever getting hurt? he is expert in hurting others...mind well.
rgds/kk
--- On Thu, 7/5/09, Sanjay Neelamegam Premnath
sanjayneelamegampremn...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Sanjay Neelamegam
Congrats ..
i am happy that the hopes of mr. aditya that you face the full wrath of the
music of your own actions are not fulfilled.
--- On Wed, 6/5/09, sam s tam ssw12...@rediffmail.com wrote:
From: sam s tam ssw12...@rediffmail.com
Subject: Re: g_b Update on cought by police on May 05 2009
Dear Shatru,
There is no need to be apologetic to a person who, in a stream of emotions for
his beloved class prostitutes, called u words like bigots, brain dead moron,
your idiotic bigotry etc. In fact it is he who should learn to discern his
own expressions and understand the
Hi,
I am 35, a professional, based in dubai, seek good friends only. Prefer
sitting and chatting on various issues, contemplation, perspectives, etc.
Prefer catching up at a great coffee place..
Regards..
please reply directly to the person. dont post replies to
,
To: gay_bombay@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 August, 2008, 8:03 PM
Hey Kaps K, don't grudge me that.
You would see it too, but for the constipation.
Get an enema dear...!! it would clear the thought processes that pass down
under.
:-)
Love, Aditya B
On 11/08/2008, kaps k
it seems bandopadhyay has changed his business to supplying all sorts of
manures...thats why he has asked for more specifics...what else can one expect
from a guy who always sees the shit in everything?
--- On Fri, 8/8/08, Aditya Bondyopadhyay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Aditya
Hi Manoj,
Congratulations for the success of Gay delhi Pride and to be able to
participate in it. Although I live in Delhi, I have to be in Europe for the
time being for work related reasons. It swells my heart to read about the
success of the Delhi Pride, I almost read every article available
learnt a lot from the
postings here.
Feel free to share this link with people that you feel might get
benefited reading this.
http://abc6850.bravehost.com/MyStory.html
Regards,
K.
Looking for last
i support u on this, mr.asfan. it needs to be condemned.
asfan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I have never read anything so
DISGUSTING before!
Does Pasha mean to say that a gay man should spoil a
poor woman's life just because she is, poor and illeterate?
The writer should hang
.
Best, Aditya B
On 19/02/2008, kaps k [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dear aditya,
it is good to know that u protested on these 2 issues somewhere, if at all u
really did. anything out of this list can not be considered for discussion
here. so naturally my guesses can
dear angel,
point well taken..only as long as every one on this list sticks to the core
gay issues and won't play with other sensitive issues.
kaps k.
Android Angel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Kaps,
Neither I m against Aditya's comments over fascist nor I m sporting
one's own is one of
the traits of your kind..and it is a bong trait i guess.
kaps k
Aditya Bondyopadhyay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear opaque Kaps K,
And how exactly do you know that I kept Mum on those issues?
In case you are capable of elevating your self from your
Dear Moderator,
I have not been receiving emails from the group over the past few days. I
have not changed my mailing options or anything like that.
Could I request for your help here?
Thanks,
AK
-
Sick of deleting your
of group for UAE (Dubai), can any
body help us?...
Nicks
A K yahoo.com.au wrote:
Guys,
Just wondering if there may be interest from the
overseas members of this group in forming GB type
support groups outside India?
I think there was some discussion on this group about
forming
Guys,
Just wondering if there may be interest from the
overseas members of this group in forming GB type
support groups outside India?
I think there was some discussion on this group about
forming something along these lines in London
Living overseas does not necessarily mean that we are
Hi Vikram,
Here's a GRAB confirmation from Jhoom Barabar Jhoom - Preity Zinta's
colleague in the movie- is a gay character who lusts after Bobby Deol.
This character comes in the movie for say like 5-10 mins and is out of
sight/mind before you know it - from what I remember!
Moderator,
Thank for posting what was a very interesting
perspective on topic which many members of this would
be able to relate to in one way or another.
Having lived overseas for a few years now and observed
the societal/family norms in non-Indian/Asian
societies I believe this 'unearned
Hi Vikram,
Thanks for getting the words right in terms of Metro. I think you have
them 100% right!
Cheeni Kum...great moviebut unfortunately no confirmations for GRABS from
my side atleast.
Cheers,
AK
Vikram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Friends,
I currently live overseas but had the chance to see the the movie Metro
recently. I have ceased to be surprised by the depiction of a gay
relationship which are becoming part of Bollywood movies more and more often
these days. Probably directors in India are finally
yes, his are the first messages that i open and read...and they hardly
disappoint me...they invariably make me smile n make my daythanx dear
naughty confessions...luv u.
Bloot Fontaine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, I too agree. Naughty
Confessions IS THE BEST!
Peter Joseph
Dear Moderator,
Please post the folowing in gb group.
I have to work from our Mumbai office, for 2-3 weeks, beginning Monday
next(9th April).
I'll appreciate if someone could help me providing paying guest/rental
accomodation
for 2-3 weeks, near Malad West(Minespace).
Hi,
I respect your love for the guy. But from your email it seems that you have
never met him or even seen his picture. May be when you guys were in touch, it
gave u peace of mind but its very different from real life. You can't be sure
about love unless you meet the other person. At times it
it is asking for user name and password to download...
provide the user name password also
--- #9734;Nice Friend#9734; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
#1583;#1575;#1606;#1604;#1608;#1583;
#1570;#1604;#1576;#1608;#1605;:
#1578;#1585;#1705;#1740;
Hello there, naughty boy,Long time no see! But I was happy to read your email. Keep up the good work.Take care.K-Y Jellynaughty confessions wrote: Husband Wife - Why divorce?In a divorce court a woman requested the judge: "Your honor, I want to divor
That was a really good one Aditya, I expect to read more of such humour so do send any if you and when you have.CheersK-Y JellyPS- Also, thanks for tipping people off about the new virus, that was really thoughtful and resourceful of you.Aditya Bondyopadhyay wrote
Nice work there, Sanjay. I expect you to put in some more whenever you can.CheersK-Y JellySanjay N Lulla [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Being safe or playing safe I wont quote from the Brahmasutras and Upanishads or any other spriritual scriptures but words from famous personalities which
Hi there
Amidst all the discussions on these lists on 2 related issues -
whether gays should marry second whether married gays should cheat
on their wives, we invariably see life from our perspective not the
woman's perspective.
An Oprah Winfrey show aired in India this morning (dont know
out in gooseflesh...It was an absolutely awesome sensation!Again, thanks.Good luck and cheers!K-Y JellyRAJEEV [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi there,Plz check out the link,its wonderful.http://www.touchninspire.com/woman.htmlRajeev
Hahahaha...Bravo! That was absolutely classic...With a real comic twist in the tale...(clapping appreciatively and animatedly...)K-Y Jellygaybombay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: True Horror, which took place last month This happened about a month ago near Lonavala.A guy was driving from Mumbai
Hi there
I thought I might as well share how being a member of this GB yahoo
group over the past year plus ( the gay_bombay yahoo group to some
extent) has helped me grow within inspite of not living in Mumbai.
Not intended to beat my own drums, these suggestions may be helpful
to others too,
In his most candid interview in India on a programme titled 'Vikram
Seth - A Suitable Man' aired on CNN-IBN Sat eve. prime time on Jan
21, 2006, internationally acclaimed Indian writer Vikram Seth talked
about the law in India relating to homosexuality in part 2 of his
interview.
He called
Thanks ever so much to all who participated in the show on behalf of
all of us .Nitin your mother, Vikram, Sridhar, Sonu Geeta.
God bless you all, may you all continue your wonderful work!!!
Regards
Parth
--- In gay_bombay@yahoogroups.com, nitin.karani
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hi All
Thought somebody would write about it, but nobody did, so here I am.
Last week, a day after 'Brokeback Mountain' swept the Globes, the
CNN show Larry King live (afternoon Indian time) had a lovely debate
on gay love marriage. I have no idea if when it will be
replayed, sorry.
and about coming out? What if the
marriage has been otherwise not too stormy? A
--- Parth K [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Friends
Group Site:
http://www.gaybombay.info
==
This message was posted to the gay_bombay Yahoo! Group. Responses to messages
(by clicking Reply
Hello Friends
How can one ever thank the core team of GB for all that they do for
us!! Those in Mumbai need to just live in some other Indian city for
a while, only then will they really appreciate the selfless
thankless untiring pioneering efforts that these unsung heroes of GB
( Humsafar)
I mean, seriously, you are the limit!!
- Original Message From: naughty confessions [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: gay_bombay@yahoogroups.comSent: Monday, December 26, 2005 7:41:54 AMSubject: g_b Cool Monkey !!!
Once in America a plane crashed, only a monkey who was traveling in the plane
apart and the whole group and especially I would
be missing you and your works...
Thank you and good luck.
K-Y Jelly
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--
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Hi Zeus
Your mail does pose a very interesting relevant question...be it
in the gay or straight world...the issue of 'having one long term
relationship (LTR)' versus 'having many superficial relationships'.
I'm not talking about friendships, please note.
To me it boils down to what one
if you stopped doing your
bit...
All I'm saying is keep up the good work!
K-Y Jelly
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--
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good show in bringing out the nub of the argument on a generally and easily acceptable level, quite articulately and effectively, at that...
Are you found at Orkut, by the bye,or am I imagining things here...?
Cheers
K-Y Jelly
- Original Message From: priyom dey [EMAIL PROTECTED]To:
(bursting out in gusts of laughter...) This one really had me in stitches...Well done!! Naughty boy!!naughty confessions [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A couple went to a sex therapists office at ABCHospital.The doctor
asked, "What can I do for you?"The man said, "Will you watch us having
So it's 15 times as muchthe size as of Gmail??That's utterly incredible!!"Nice Friend " [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shivaprakash Hi All,use the following link get the 30gigs to create accout. http://ch0de.freedomsnet.net/30gigscom_invite_system_exploited.php Yahoo!
, thanks for putting up with me and my nonsense!!K-Y Jellyv t [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:dear friends. I am not able to get offline messages on my yahoo messanger.. i think by error i made some wrong settings... Can anyone help me out... Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million
sorry if thissounded like blowing my own horn, but I would like you to appreciate that such things do happen but only on occasion. Not everyone can luck out like how my friend did. So it's always better to be safe than sorry, what do you say?Happy Mobiling, though!!K-Y Jelly abc
importantly, also exercise
fidelity? Is it fair? If so how?I'm asking you out of sheer inquisitiveness and not to make you rise to the bait!!Kindly comment.K-Y JellyManav [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Adrian, Read your mail entitled:Experience of a married man with gay orientation
.CheersK-Y Jelly
adrian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi,I am including a post from one of the groups I gotthrough one of the many mails has set mecontemplating. This is the experience of married guywith a gay orientation. Its an interesting read andmore importantly gives an insight
So you're back with a comic bang, I see?Nice. K-Y Jellynaughty confessions [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:About a century or two ago, the Pope decided that allthe Sikhs had toleave Italy. Naturally there was a big uproar from theSikh community.So the Pope made a deal. He would have
Is that so? Really? Wow!! Thanks for the gyaan(the dope)...Admittedly, your heart in the right place!!K-Y Jellyazhagi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi all ,This is very useful piece of information which I would like to share it with you. How to disable your stolen mobile handset.? A bit
and indistinct one...
This of course is only my viewpoint on how the artist must have come up with
the idea and gone about it...
When all is said and done, you've done a good job of bringing such an
incomparable masterwork to everyone's notice.
Cheers
K-Y Jelly
I almost died guffawing my heda off...That was damned hilarious, i tell you...So do put in such laughable chunks of humour whenever you can...K-Y JellySweet Angel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I dunno if this is true, but it sure is hilarious - Inzy's Interview It's said
You really are a nice friend, Nice Friend, putting in some of the nicest stuff
available with that evidently unfailing enthusiasm...
Three cheers to you!!
K-Y Jelly
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in such stuff every now and then as it would be a breath of fresh air...Not everyone would likesmut all the time, right?Plus, it amazes me how much of
smartsmany like youhave out here that shows in their contributions...Anyway, all I have to say is this: keep it up!!K-Y JellySweet
Wow! That was really very insightful and helpful.Thanks for sharing it with us.K-Y JellyJully [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Friends.I just want to share you my experience that how to relax your body.You can see my experience. There is very cool stuff for you allpeople.More detail
Congrats Ketan and all!!K-Y Jelly gaybombaygroup [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Friendsgay_bombay@yahoogroups.com has crossed 10,000 memberships mark making it one of the largest LGBT group in the world. Thank you all for your emails, views and news. You are the ones who have made
That was a real booby or should I say, Baby trap...
Good one, that!!
K-Y Jelly
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--
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i know andy he is my friendbighard bighard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Guys ,
The Zouk Party was overall a Good Show.The turnout was encouraging eventhough it was not a weekend.By writing email to this group i would like to bring to the attention of the organisers to conduct such party
Those were truly awesome and incredibly breathtaking photos, though some seemed too fantastic to be believed-these apparently had been morphed for amusement...Jolly good show, anyways, mate!!And, do put in such stuff whenever you can...Ciao!K-Y Jelly
"Nice F
dear not-so-sweet angel,
as a taxpaying citizen of this country,every person has a right to demand from the govt the things for his/her well-being. and the same thing madam lata mangeshkar has done.she has just supported the cause of the residents of her locality alongwith her neighbours. what
This is a hoary old chestnut that I had read once too many...It was fun reading it again, all the same...
Don't stop putting in such stuff whenever you can...Nothing could be nobler thna putting a smile on someone's face, could it? It's not easy, either, is it?
naughty confessions [EMAIL
I almost got concussed laughing out loud!!naughty confessions [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jim and Johnny die in a boating accident. Jim goes to heaven and Johnny goes to hell. One day Jim looks down at Johnny in hell. Johnny has a beer in his hand and a blonde on his lap. Jim gets pissed off,so
That was simply magnificent..."*¤*.¸¸.´¨`»*Nice Friend*«´¨`" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
haseen04
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
Group Site:
http://www.gaybombay.info
That was a really good one, cross my heart and hope to die!!
It'sa perfect case of elementarylogic playing havoc with an adult mind...
Really naughty!!
Send in more of such jokes whenever you can...naughty confessions [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In some remote village of India, one masterji is
well said dear rakshas,
your views r most practical. we can not shun our responsibilities. yet, getting
acceptance of our near n dear ones for our gay relationship is the first step
towards getting the acceptance of the society by large.every gay should read
and ponder over what you have said
Hi,I am a gay (south-indian) malecurrently residing in the USA.
I'm in my thirties - decent, understanding, pleasantand a friendly/flexible person and am an I.T. professional,
working for afinancial firm.
I'm looking for M.O.C. with an undesrtanding lady.
If interested, please reply
Hi All,
Why we keep talking about our sexuality?
Its there you cant change it or not any other person.
So enjoy it
Love
Shishir
--- dbf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-
i believe we are born gay
i think sexuality is not a choice
i was gay since very young,
Thanks for the infinitely compelling excerpts...
Ketan_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
India's Slow Descent Into Homophobia By Amara Das Wilhelm Ancient India's acceptance and accommodation of many forms of eroticism within its culture, including homoeroticism, has been well documented in early
i am not so keenly following the gurukul or for that matter any other musical
competitions as there is less consideration of merit and more to the regional /
linguistic biases or to other irrelevant things like looks/ personality. the
only show which i could realy enjoy was the very first SA RE
Hi Guys,
Check out my blog which I have just started writing...
http://gaykarma.blogspot.com/
Luv,
Smart Mate
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and full Actor Database.
Group Site:
http://www.gaybombay.info
Nice work, Jimmy!!
But I was hoping if you could possibly put in more ofsuch intriguing tips(on various subjects)for a general yet helpful read in future.
Tips like these would always come in useful; plus, none can gowrong with them, can they?
Cheers
KY Jelly
jimmy khan [EMAIL
hi,
when it comes to doing justice to lata's songs, it does not matter if the face
does not match with the voice.. what matters most is 1) how are the lip and
neck and body movements and more importantly 2) are the expressions matching
with the feelings that latadidi had poured into the song...
basically, Too titha mee was a story of an old couple who were made to live
separate from each other just for the convenience of their children.
the same thing was depicted in baghbaan so i thought it was a remake since i
saw Too titha mee much earlier than Baghbaan.
however, the treatment to
Hi RGF
I have thrown some light on your suggestion and thought it would be best for
you to inaugurate the activity yourself...or, at least put out feelers while
some of us try to come up with something...What do you say...?
G
rich_guy_fun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Lovely Guys
Why
Hullo Folks
Here's something for all of you to read, enjoy and oh yes don't be afraid to laugh...Only that reading this ream might be to the dentriment of your time, so make sure you willing to splurge some of your time on it...
G
You know something, even someone whos as thick as two
should know how to make the most of what he is being offered at this
very moment
K-Y Jelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Jan. Howdy!!
Thanks for emailing me. I've read your raunchy experiance on the rails and
felt something twitch behind my pants...geehee...
But are you sure such things really
Jan. Howdy!!
Thanks for emailing me. I've read your raunchy experiance on the rails and
felt something twitch behind my pants...geehee...
But are you sure such things really happen every now and then...I remember some
of my acquaintances narrating similar experiences or shall I say
Bravo, mate!! Your exquisitely penned or shall I say 'keyed'...geehee...story
is bound to not only touch but also give a new lease of life to many of the
self-deprived and self-constrained lives out there in which people have been
eternally grappling to stave off the perennially beleaguering
Raj/Rajeev or to whom it may concern:
That was an absolutely and infinitely poignant and moving poem with marked emotional cadence and laced with a touch of resentment...Yes it's a tad maudlin for the reader's likingbutisn'tthat the element or rather an essential ingredient that gives the poem
Blimey!!What a bummer it is...geehee...but once again jolly good show Sanjay!!
G
Sanjay Lulla [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
not writable, the moderator wont post them :) one can only do them lol
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--
Ever feel sad or cry for no
asfanhahaha...small wonder Sahil once recommended I read your stuff as
well...both of you guys seem to be on the same wavelength!!
Superb stuff(hey not the one in thta box yukk)
hahahah!!
Jolly good show, mate!!
asfan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This guy goes to a grocery store and
Way to go Sanjay...!!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Types Of Kisses
Below you will find a variety of kiss types. If you find some that
catch your fancy, feel free to try them :-)
Butterfly Kiss - With your faces less than a breath away, open and
close your eyelids against your partners. If done
Hullo Sahil
I was hoping you would be able to help me with giving me a few tips on how I could possibly attach a word document for posting it on the group webiste...
Ta!
G
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
Group Site:
http://www.gaybombay.info
WOW Sahil that a really moving story and highly inspirational...This makes a reader take a breather from theroutine rat race and introspect a little or soulsearch...Even contemplate the importance ofhuman relationships...
Good job, mate!!
GSahil Khan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A very Touching
Wow you ARE something of a poet, aren't you, Shil? Well done!!
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I thought you only had the talent of making others smile but now I know that
you have much more knack in you-you've also got the genius to make people's
eyes well with tears in a good way through your poetical prowess, i see?
These two poignant poems were exceptionally touching...keep up the
Oh the mighty load of Holy S***!!(screaming with laughter)
Sahil Khan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A LITTLE FLAB.One morning while making breakfast, a man walked up to his wife, pinched her on the butt and said, "if youfirmed up, we could get rid of your control-top panty hose".While this was on
Saahhhiii!!!Hahahahah...that was absolutely classic!!The driver made a
right prat of the hippie but got away with his share of...reward, though,
didn't he?hahahah!!
Sahil Khan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:A hippie on a city bus notices a young nun
sitting
across from him and at once finds
It's about time I crowned you 'The King of Gags' -you seem to possess a
repository of jokes and the best thing about it is you brighten up the reader's
day...all the credit goes to you, Sahil...
G
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--
Does he tell
Hahaha quite a dig at the boss, isn't it? Jolly good show, Sahil!!Sahil Khan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A butcher watching over his shop is really surprised when he sees a dog coming inside the shop. He shoos him away.
But later, the dog is back again. So, he goes over to the dog and notices
Sahil...(falling about and convulsing with laughter), those were really classic
ones...thanks for sending them in...The best were the bear and rabbit one and
the nuns one...hahaha...there's a mention of fingers, hands, mouth, the
backside in the latter and I can only imagine what would St Peter
Wow Sahil
Way to go!!You've done a good job culling these good ones that creased me up all right!!There's not only humour and hilarity in them but is laden with loads of wit!!
Since I love reading such stuff, do send in some whenever you can...
Cheers
i am a bottom guy,based in chennai.
chweck my pic. at www.face-pic.com/shivisme
if its ok with you,do mail me at,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] along with your pic. and details.
you can check my details.feel free to ask me anything. however,
as i dont like discussing families so nothing to be
u can try on www.raaga.com site..
--- abhi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi guys
The movie my bro nikhil is really depressing watching it makes u feel really
low BUT its all worth going thru all these emotions coz it makes u face with
bare reality IT can make u feel weak and teach when to be
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