Endre Stølsvik at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
| Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is
| now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a
| number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost.
So you (Jakarta)
Tim Vernum at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How do you know that JBoss would have worked within Jakarta?
Simply, it wouldn't have... We would have been stuck in a very long flamewar
forever :) That's why Jboss is not @ Jakarta...
Pier
On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
| Were you (Jon) the front figure in that rejection too, hurling shit in
| every direction, handing out your minus one before knowing what you were
| talking about?
|
| Actually, Jon was pro...
I've understood this by now, I kind of just threw that
* Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
|
| I'm just thinking that Jakarta having a full-fledged J2EE environment
| would have been really _really_ cool.
|
| But apparently not. People hate each other too much. How sad.
The jakarta process is not right for everybody and it is not the end of
On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:56, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
Tim Vernum at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How do you know that JBoss would have worked within Jakarta?
Simply, it wouldn't have... We would have been stuck in a very long
flamewar forever :) That's why Jboss is not @ Jakarta...
Oh good - so it
On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:09, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
| Me and Stefano were against since we didn't like Mark Fleury... Before
| JBoss moved over to SourceForge (before SourceForge even existed) Jon
| was hosting all their CVS and mailing lists...
I'm just thinking that Jakarta having a
On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:52, Sam Ruby wrote:
Endre Stlsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Sounds like a nice, open structure, always glad and happy for new
thoughts, ideas and ways of doing things.
Do I detect a bit of sarcasm in there?
Speaking as a relative newcomer (the entire JBoss
Peter Donald wrote:
(BTW Sam - have we ever had a clean build yet ?)
I've gotten real close. All Apache projects compiling clean, just one non-Apache
project failing...
One really kool and very good technically project you may want to look at is
OpenEJB. Thats a project I would love to
On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
| At 22:21 17.10.2001 +0200, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
| On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
|
| | As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his
| | observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more.
| |Why not
| The thing is that most people who do open source work do it for the
| fun/satisfaction of the thing, and engaging in debates with someone who
| truly speaks their mind and only compliments your work when its worth
| complimenting helps out with that fun/satisfaction thing.
I agree. That's not
From: Endre Stølsvik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How
incredibly smart
of you.
Ah yes, the incredible science of predicting alternative
realities.
How do you know that JBoss would have worked within Jakarta?
Maybe the JBoss developers
Dear All,
It's somewhat sad that this discussion has degenerated
into a flamefest, rife with personal attacks and orificial
metaphors.
It's sadder still, Jon, that you quote Paul almost
verbatim in your document New Project Proposals
(http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html) and
put
At 08:48 18.10.2001 +0200, you wrote:
| Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is
| now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a
| number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost.
So you (Jakarta) rejected
on 10/18/01 12:18 AM, Ranjit Mathew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's sadder still, Jon, that you quote Paul almost
verbatim in your document New Project Proposals
(http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html) and
#1. It is a quote made in a public forum.
#2. I also used a quote from Sam and
Title: RE: ASPizer
Hi Paul!
-Mensaje original-
De: Paul Ilechko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Enviado el: jueves 18 de octubre de 2001 0:43
Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Asunto: RE: ASPizer
How can you commit to backing a project over the long term
if your company
can't get
Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
IMHO, the commitment from your company is not enough. The company might go
under, or shift strategy, or find the product no longer useful. That would
leave the product effectively orphaned, in Jakarta land but with nobody willing
to
On Thursday, October 18, 2001, at 07:48 AM, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How incredibly smart
of you. Think about the synergies between Tomcat and Jboss!!! Wow!
Incredible.
rejecting jboss was probably good (in the long term) for everybody.
jboss
On Thursday, October 18, 2001, at 08:18 AM, Ranjit Mathew wrote:
Coming to the issues raised in Jon's document and
elsewhere on this thread, I must tell you that this
has been a closed-source project so far with no
external developer community to speak of. It is still
being actively
I've followed this thread with interest, I have to say that I think the move
to open source for a product has to be independant of any other action.
If you aren't commited to releasing your product under an open source
licence without the support of Apache it does seem suspicious.
If your OS
Thanks to all the people who came up with helpful suggestions, we'll be
looking into our options.
Paul.
-Original Message-
From: Danny Angus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 4:48 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: ASPizer
I've followed
on 10/17/01 6:08 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I
was pretty
clear that we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE
continuing to work on ASPizer and support it, and have described the
commitment
From: Avi Cherry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Instead, he
questioned the motives of the developer offering their code, implying
that he was being selfish in wanting to have the Apache group take
the project in. This was obviously not his intent,
It might have been obvious to you, but it
on 10/17/01 9:36 PM, Tim Vernum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
When I first read the original mail my reaction was Someone with
a homeless project looking for an owner.
I must be tainted from having been around here so long. I see right through
his proposal.
In fact Paul's most recent mail says
On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
| on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
|
| Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond
| sooner.
|
| A few comments:
|
| ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being
Endre,
Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around,
he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a
dumping ground for .bomb projects.
I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his
mind. One might be crititical of Jon but he
--- Ceki Gulcu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Endre,
Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around,
he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a
dumping ground for .bomb projects.
Project X is written because it is useful to Company Y.
Gaspar
-Original Message-
From: Ceki Gulcu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 1:42 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: ASPizer
Endre,
Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around,
he is usually right. Jon is correct
On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
|
| Endre,
|
| Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around,
| he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a
| dumping ground for .bomb projects.
Of course it's not a dumping ground.
This is about whether the
Alex McLintock at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Project X is written because it is useful to Company Y.
Company Y attempts to market Project X because they think it is useful to
others.
Company Y decides they wont get enough money for Project X
Company Y offers Project X to the Opensource
Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I was pretty clear that
we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE continuing to work on
ASPizer and support it, and have described the commitment we expect to make. Now, if
anyone wants to look more closely at the
Endre,
Of course it's not a dumping ground.
This is about whether the Open Source Community at Apache would be
interested in a project. Starting the debate from Apache's side with such
crude, ugly, disrespectful remarks like Jon's coming up with is just not
fair. This company is dumping a
on 10/17/01 9:24 AM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Nothing, but from a community standpoint, the ASF would rather incorporate
projects that are not backed up by a self-sustained open-development
community... Look at our last addition, Log4J, it was an IBM project, they
dumped it,
on 10/17/01 6:08 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I was pretty
clear that we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE
continuing to work on ASPizer and support it, and have described the
commitment we
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ceki Gulcu writes:
Coming back to the issue at hand, if ASPizer authors are truly
committed to open source and the Apache model, they should counter
Jon's remarks and justify the reasons why their product should be part
of Jakarta.
...
I did not read anyone but Jon
on 10/17/01 9:35 AM, Ceki Gulcu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jakarta is not a dumping ground for .bomb projects. Untactful?
Yes. Accurate statement? Yes.
Let me point out that I tried tact the first time I responded:
There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this
writing - it is still direct to the
point but much less ofensive.
Thanks and have fun,
Paulo
-Original Message-
From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 8:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: ASPizer
on 10/17/01 6:08 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL
On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
| As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his
| observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more.
|Why not just package things just a little bit nicer? Or just whatever?
| Be a bit more polite? Be, you know,
On Wed, 17 October 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
Let me point out that I tried tact the first time I responded:
There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this
to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool product. Nor is
there anything that suggests
on 10/17/01 1:21 PM, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jon's last post is just so very much better. Why not start with something
like that? It's still pretty direct, but in a much nicer, somewhat
diplomatic way.
I did start nice. How come you choose to ignore that?
I'm not. It's
on 10/17/01 12:42 PM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Actually, I responded to all your points, then you decided it was time to
insult us, at which point it no longer seemed worthwhile responding to you at
all. Fortunately, not everyone on the list has the same attitude problem.
You
At 22:21 17.10.2001 +0200, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
| As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his
| observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more.
|Why not just package things just a little bit nicer? Or just
At 12:42 17.10.2001 -0700, Paul Ilechko wrote:
On Wed, 17 October 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
Let me point out that I tried tact the first time I responded:
There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this
to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool
on 10/17/01 12:24 PM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No, this is not what we said. We said we cannot fund taking the product to
market, which is vastly different than being able to fund development. We are
primarily a consulting company, and we have used ASPizer for a client project.
Let me quote you:
However, due to various economic factors such as the decline in the ASP
market and the recent difficulties in obtaining venture capital, we have
decided that at this time it is not feasible for is to continue in that
direction.
And:
We intend to continue to provide
-Original Message-
From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 11:54 PM
I am sorry but what insult are you referring to?
Calling someone's hard-worked project .bomb, without even
trying to get informed about it.
Does this qualify?
Have fun,
on 10/17/01 4:29 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Calling someone's hard-worked project .bomb, without even
trying to get informed about it.
Does this qualify?
It is a .bomb project though. I have an entire corporation of them (yes, I
am the proud owner of a rather large worthless
I don't have any more time for this. End of discussion. I'm not going to
change my mind.
-1
My suggestion:
Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is
now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a
number of years on my own dime, the
Daniel Rall wrote:
ASPizer guys: you have the option to re-submit your proposal in a
manner which directly addresses the questions raised here. People do
sometimes change their minds when presented with a comprehensive set
of information in a format desirable to them.
+1
Just remember,
At 8:00 PM -0400 10/17/01, Scott Tacares wrote:
I don't care if he was here before time and space there is no excuse! He
does damage to the entire open source community with his crude and
unjustified remarks. It makes people shy away from participating in fear
that he may belittle them, this is
In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Endre
Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
I'm not. It's trying to point something out to Jon, actually. But he
definately does have a load of followers in this forum, protecting his 5
years earned rights to be rude. But I do know that there is several other
people
, October 15, 2001 8:39 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: ASPizer
Tbanks for the constructive criticism, Jon.
Paul.
-Original Message-
From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:30 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Ranjit Mathew; Arnab Ghosh
Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond sooner.
A few comments:
ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used on a live
website in the UK. It was developed as a product by THBS, with the intention that we
would sell it.
Tbanks for the constructive criticism, Jon.
Paul.
-Original Message-
From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:30 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Ranjit Mathew; Arnab Ghosh
Subject: Re: ASPizer
on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED
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