Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 1:46 AM, Mick michaelkintz...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 06 Jun 2014 00:15:02 Peter Humphrey wrote: I bet you have quite a lot of systemd components lurking in the background though, ready to take over the world the next time you aren't looking :-) Ha! I can already see this one: 338 ?Ss 0:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd --daemon I have set USE=-systemd, but if/when Gentoo migrates to systemd as the default startup I will probably have to remove it and then learn how to use systemd. That would be udev. It has been around long before systemd, and you must have missed the huge flamewar when they renamed it to systemd-udevd. Maybe we'll see java renamed to java-by-oracle-with-ask-toolbar next. :) If you ever migrate to systemd you really just need to set USE=systemd and install systemd. Portage will swap out your udev in the process, though nothing there will really change as systemd and udev install the same udev components. There is a guide for installing systemd that you should follow which gets into all the details. Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On Friday 06 Jun 2014 12:18:09 Rich Freeman wrote: That would be udev. It has been around long before systemd, and you must have missed the huge flamewar when they renamed it to systemd-udevd. Maybe we'll see java renamed to java-by-oracle-with-ask-toolbar next. :) TBH I wouldn't be surprised. At least java offers a choice of avoiding it. ;-) If you ever migrate to systemd you really just need to set USE=systemd and install systemd. Portage will swap out your udev in the process, though nothing there will really change as systemd and udev install the same udev components. There is a guide for installing systemd that you should follow which gets into all the details. I didn't miss the flamewar. Actually I recall joining in the fun and posting the odd message about systemd. I know that I could use eudev or systemd-udev (or even mdev as kindly shared in this list by Walter). I am mostly happy with openrc and therefore have no reason to move to the systemd monoculture, unless gentoo falls in line with Debian et al. and leaves me no choice. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Mick michaelkintz...@gmail.com wrote: I am mostly happy with openrc and therefore have no reason to move to the systemd monoculture, unless gentoo falls in line with Debian et al. and leaves me no choice. I don't really see that happening anytime soon - it will be more likely to become an issue for the more complex desktop environments (Gnome is already going this way - KDE may very well go this way later). Historically they're the first packages to require things like HAL, udev, dbus, pulseaudio, etc (and on Gentoo the maintainers tend to do a good job of minimizing dependencies). I think many will switch to systemd anyway, simply because that is the way the wind is blowing and it does have some benefits depending on your situation (but so do a number of other configurations). I tend to use it by default on new installs, and anytime I find myself tweaking my monit rules I keep bumping up migrating entirely to systemd a little higher on my to-do list. Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On 05/06/14 08:23, Mick wrote: On Wednesday 04 Jun 2014 23:27:05 Samuli Suominen wrote: On 05/06/14 01:14, »Q« wrote: On Tue, 03 Jun 2014 22:06:07 +0200 Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: The good news is that the version of upower prior to this decision still works fine and likely will for ages to come. That code has been bundled into a new package upower-pm-utils. Anyone that feels like doing it can now step up to the plate and continue the work upower was doing earlier. I don't understand the development status of upower-pm-utils. Is there someone either upstream or with Gentoo committed to maintaining it? No, nobody is actively working on it, it's the abandoned upstream git branch that used to be master before 0.99.0's release: Current sys-power/upower-pm-utils is same as latest code from http://cgit.freedesktop.org/upower/log/?h=0.9 And last commit is 2013 I might backport some fixes from git master over at some point later, but I won't do any promises Or is it a git branch created just to meet the current needs of non-systemd Gentoo users? It's to be considered as a temporary solution for applications that need the Hibernate and Suspend functionality from UPower for non-systemd users, applications like mate-session-manager, lxsession, uevt, and so forth Migrating to =sys-power/upower-0.99.0 is the recommended path to take if at all possible. It's possible for eg. Xfce users, because Xfce in ~arch integrated sys-power/pm-utils support directly for Hibernate and Suspend Also, GNOME 3.12 requires 0.99.0 Hi Samuli, Are you saying that as things stand it is a matter of time before a gentoo user will have to switch from openrc to systemd, if they want/need to continue using sleep and hibernate? For those tasks you mentioned... ...if other desktops don't migrate like Xfce, then something like: Switching to a) systemd, OR b) switching to Xfce (direct pm-utils support in session and power managers), OR c) switching to command line pm-* utilities directly from pm-utils ...might be inevitable And if Linux kernel does changes that break pm-utils, which haven't had a single commit since 2010 in upstream repository: Switching to a) systemd, OR, b) wait, no other possibilities Yes, that's really how poor the situation is, and don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger :-) - Samuli
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On Thursday 05 Jun 2014 08:25:30 Samuli Suominen wrote: On 05/06/14 08:23, Mick wrote: Are you saying that as things stand it is a matter of time before a gentoo user will have to switch from openrc to systemd, if they want/need to continue using sleep and hibernate? For those tasks you mentioned... ...if other desktops don't migrate like Xfce, then something like: Switching to a) systemd, OR b) switching to Xfce (direct pm-utils support in session and power managers), OR c) switching to command line pm-* utilities directly from pm-utils ...might be inevitable And if Linux kernel does changes that break pm-utils, which haven't had a single commit since 2010 in upstream repository: Switching to a) systemd, OR, b) wait, no other possibilities Yes, that's really how poor the situation is, and don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger :-) Thanks Samuli, I don't shoot people, especially when they try to help me! :-) I use enlightenment on most machines and KDE on a couple of desktops, so I guess these would be the only two desktops that may be an issue for me. However, I had forgotten about the pm-* commands. I just tried: pm-is-supported --suspend-hybrid and didn't get anything ... what am I missing? -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On 05/06/14 12:03, Mick wrote: On Thursday 05 Jun 2014 08:25:30 Samuli Suominen wrote: On 05/06/14 08:23, Mick wrote: Are you saying that as things stand it is a matter of time before a gentoo user will have to switch from openrc to systemd, if they want/need to continue using sleep and hibernate? For those tasks you mentioned... ...if other desktops don't migrate like Xfce, then something like: Switching to a) systemd, OR b) switching to Xfce (direct pm-utils support in session and power managers), OR c) switching to command line pm-* utilities directly from pm-utils ...might be inevitable And if Linux kernel does changes that break pm-utils, which haven't had a single commit since 2010 in upstream repository: Switching to a) systemd, OR, b) wait, no other possibilities Yes, that's really how poor the situation is, and don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger :-) Thanks Samuli, I don't shoot people, especially when they try to help me! :-) I use enlightenment on most machines and KDE on a couple of desktops, so I guess these would be the only two desktops that may be an issue for me. However, I had forgotten about the pm-* commands. I just tried: pm-is-supported --suspend-hybrid and didn't get anything ... what am I missing? null ssuominen # pm-is-supported --suspend null ssuominen # echo $? 0 null ssuominen # pm-is-supported --hibernate null ssuominen # echo $? 0 null ssuominen # pm-is-supported --suspend-hybrid null ssuominen # echo $? 0 see `man pm-is-supported`, this particular command is silent, and only returns return codes, and 0 means it succeeded - Samuli
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On Thursday 05 Jun 2014 10:08:53 Samuli Suominen wrote: On 05/06/14 12:03, Mick wrote: On Thursday 05 Jun 2014 08:25:30 Samuli Suominen wrote: On 05/06/14 08:23, Mick wrote: Are you saying that as things stand it is a matter of time before a gentoo user will have to switch from openrc to systemd, if they want/need to continue using sleep and hibernate? For those tasks you mentioned... ...if other desktops don't migrate like Xfce, then something like: Switching to a) systemd, OR b) switching to Xfce (direct pm-utils support in session and power managers), OR c) switching to command line pm-* utilities directly from pm-utils ...might be inevitable And if Linux kernel does changes that break pm-utils, which haven't had a single commit since 2010 in upstream repository: Switching to a) systemd, OR, b) wait, no other possibilities Yes, that's really how poor the situation is, and don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger :-) Thanks Samuli, I don't shoot people, especially when they try to help me! :-) I use enlightenment on most machines and KDE on a couple of desktops, so I guess these would be the only two desktops that may be an issue for me. However, I had forgotten about the pm-* commands. I just tried: pm-is-supported --suspend-hybrid and didn't get anything ... what am I missing? null ssuominen # pm-is-supported --suspend null ssuominen # echo $? 0 null ssuominen # pm-is-supported --hibernate null ssuominen # echo $? 0 null ssuominen # pm-is-supported --suspend-hybrid null ssuominen # echo $? 0 see `man pm-is-supported`, this particular command is silent, and only returns return codes, and 0 means it succeeded Yes, I had seen the man page and was expecting a return code, your echo string worked. Thank you. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On Thu, 5 Jun 2014 06:23:38 +0100
Mick michaelkintz...@gmail.com wrote:
Are you saying that as things stand it is a matter of time before a
gentoo user will have to switch from openrc to systemd, if they
want/need to continue using sleep and hibernate?
For them to have support for sleep and hibernate, someone needs to
develop / maintain it in order to adapt to kernel API changes; as long
as the only one doing this is systemd, you'll work towards only it
being supported there in the future.
In other words, if people want to see this be continued in other places
than systemd; they need to either be verbal enough to convince someone
to do the work, or do the work involved themselves.
There are easily at least 100 users interested in further support.
So, if some developers and/or users can find the time, will and
interest to do so the cost to implement it; it will certainly be worth
to do for the benefit of making a ton of users happy in the future.
TL;DR: A simple equation: If someone stops development upstream,
someone else needs to start developing to keep that work{,ing}.
--
With kind regards,
Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer
E-mail address : tom...@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On 05/06/14 13:47, Tom Wijsman wrote: On Thu, 5 Jun 2014 06:23:38 +0100 Mick michaelkintz...@gmail.com wrote: Are you saying that as things stand it is a matter of time before a gentoo user will have to switch from openrc to systemd, if they want/need to continue using sleep and hibernate? For them to have support for sleep and hibernate, someone needs to develop / maintain it in order to adapt to kernel API changes; as long as the only one doing this is systemd, you'll work towards only it being supported there in the future. Correct, and to name an example, pm-utils is still using the old wireless stack and 'wireless-utils' instead of 'iw' As in, pm-utils is using kernel options that are marked as DEPRECATED in the menuconfig, and DEPRECATED means they are going away at some point So it won't be long the package is broken for every machine that has wireless card I'm sure there are multiple other examples available, but this one pops up to mind immediately
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On Thursday 05 Jun 2014 12:26:09 Samuli Suominen wrote: On 05/06/14 13:47, Tom Wijsman wrote: On Thu, 5 Jun 2014 06:23:38 +0100 Mick michaelkintz...@gmail.com wrote: Are you saying that as things stand it is a matter of time before a gentoo user will have to switch from openrc to systemd, if they want/need to continue using sleep and hibernate? For them to have support for sleep and hibernate, someone needs to develop / maintain it in order to adapt to kernel API changes; as long as the only one doing this is systemd, you'll work towards only it being supported there in the future. Correct, and to name an example, pm-utils is still using the old wireless stack and 'wireless-utils' instead of 'iw' As in, pm-utils is using kernel options that are marked as DEPRECATED in the menuconfig, and DEPRECATED means they are going away at some point So it won't be long the package is broken for every machine that has wireless card I'm sure there are multiple other examples available, but this one pops up to mind immediately Fair enough, I've keyworded sys-power/upower-0.99.0 for now on one machine and it seems to work fine, without imposing systemd at the moment. :-) -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On Thursday 05 June 2014 13:58:45 Mick wrote: .., I've keyworded sys-power/upower-0.99.0 for now on one machine and it seems to work fine, without imposing systemd at the moment. :-) I bet you have quite a lot of systemd components lurking in the background though, ready to take over the world the next time you aren't looking :-) -- Regards Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On Friday 06 Jun 2014 00:15:02 Peter Humphrey wrote: On Thursday 05 June 2014 13:58:45 Mick wrote: .., I've keyworded sys-power/upower-0.99.0 for now on one machine and it seems to work fine, without imposing systemd at the moment. :-) I bet you have quite a lot of systemd components lurking in the background though, ready to take over the world the next time you aren't looking :-) Ha! I can already see this one: 338 ?Ss 0:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd --daemon I have set USE=-systemd, but if/when Gentoo migrates to systemd as the default startup I will probably have to remove it and then learn how to use systemd. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On Tuesday 03 June 2014 10:39:10 »Q« wrote: I figured out what I wanted to do (uninstall upower, install upower-pm-utils) by reading the changelogs, but I don't know what my other options were. Could I have stuck with upower, letting it pull in systemd, without messing up openrc? Apparently not, or at least I couldn't, because of package blocks. -- Regards Peter
[gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On Tue, 03 Jun 2014 22:06:07 +0200 Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: The good news is that the version of upower prior to this decision still works fine and likely will for ages to come. That code has been bundled into a new package upower-pm-utils. Anyone that feels like doing it can now step up to the plate and continue the work upower was doing earlier. I don't understand the development status of upower-pm-utils. Is there someone either upstream or with Gentoo committed to maintaining it? Or is it a git branch created just to meet the current needs of non-systemd Gentoo users?
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On 05/06/14 01:14, »Q« wrote: On Tue, 03 Jun 2014 22:06:07 +0200 Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: The good news is that the version of upower prior to this decision still works fine and likely will for ages to come. That code has been bundled into a new package upower-pm-utils. Anyone that feels like doing it can now step up to the plate and continue the work upower was doing earlier. I don't understand the development status of upower-pm-utils. Is there someone either upstream or with Gentoo committed to maintaining it? No, nobody is actively working on it, it's the abandoned upstream git branch that used to be master before 0.99.0's release: Current sys-power/upower-pm-utils is same as latest code from http://cgit.freedesktop.org/upower/log/?h=0.9 And last commit is 2013 I might backport some fixes from git master over at some point later, but I won't do any promises Or is it a git branch created just to meet the current needs of non-systemd Gentoo users? It's to be considered as a temporary solution for applications that need the Hibernate and Suspend functionality from UPower for non-systemd users, applications like mate-session-manager, lxsession, uevt, and so forth Migrating to =sys-power/upower-0.99.0 is the recommended path to take if at all possible. It's possible for eg. Xfce users, because Xfce in ~arch integrated sys-power/pm-utils support directly for Hibernate and Suspend Also, GNOME 3.12 requires 0.99.0 - Samuli
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On Wednesday 04 Jun 2014 23:27:05 Samuli Suominen wrote: On 05/06/14 01:14, »Q« wrote: On Tue, 03 Jun 2014 22:06:07 +0200 Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: The good news is that the version of upower prior to this decision still works fine and likely will for ages to come. That code has been bundled into a new package upower-pm-utils. Anyone that feels like doing it can now step up to the plate and continue the work upower was doing earlier. I don't understand the development status of upower-pm-utils. Is there someone either upstream or with Gentoo committed to maintaining it? No, nobody is actively working on it, it's the abandoned upstream git branch that used to be master before 0.99.0's release: Current sys-power/upower-pm-utils is same as latest code from http://cgit.freedesktop.org/upower/log/?h=0.9 And last commit is 2013 I might backport some fixes from git master over at some point later, but I won't do any promises Or is it a git branch created just to meet the current needs of non-systemd Gentoo users? It's to be considered as a temporary solution for applications that need the Hibernate and Suspend functionality from UPower for non-systemd users, applications like mate-session-manager, lxsession, uevt, and so forth Migrating to =sys-power/upower-0.99.0 is the recommended path to take if at all possible. It's possible for eg. Xfce users, because Xfce in ~arch integrated sys-power/pm-utils support directly for Hibernate and Suspend Also, GNOME 3.12 requires 0.99.0 Hi Samuli, Are you saying that as things stand it is a matter of time before a gentoo user will have to switch from openrc to systemd, if they want/need to continue using sleep and hibernate? -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[gentoo-user] Re: Systemd upower
On Tue, 03 Jun 2014 18:14:56 +0300 Samuli Suominen ssuomi...@gentoo.org wrote: (I think I'll be forced to write up some minimal news item just to shut up the loud minority who can't be bothered to do anything themselfs, like even read package ChangeLogs if they stumble upon something manual.) I figured out what I wanted to do (uninstall upower, install upower-pm-utils) by reading the changelogs, but I don't know what my other options were. Could I have stuck with upower, letting it pull in systemd, without messing up openrc? ISTM as long as openrc is Gentoo's default init system, it would be nice to have a news item outline all the available paths for openrc users every time something like this happens.
