Re: [gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170219-19:41+, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 14:21:58 +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > ...[ you cut my argument here]...
> > ...[ you cut my argument here]...
> > ...[ you cut my argument here]...
> > > KDE3 had its own IPC protocol, DCOP, that was used as the basis for
> > > DBus. Once there was a standard IPC system, there was no need for KDE
> > > to maintain its own. GNOME and KDE are integrated suites of software,
> > > some form of IPC is necessary for them to function. To ditch DBus,
> > > they would have to reinvent the wheel.  
> > Yeah, right!
I wasn't being ironic.

> 
> What's that supposed to mean. This is documented fact, plus, if you had
> ever used DCOP, you would immediately spot the similarities in DBus.
>  
> > But I can't go into detailed discussions full time about dbus opaque or
> 
> DBus is a protocol specification, where is the opaqueness.
> 
> > not. (I really don't expect anybody can deny spender's claims in that
> > link on Linux security)...
> 
> Allowing programs to communicate with one another will always raise
> possibilities for exploitation, but that is not necessarily a reason to
> isolate all software from one another. After all, isn't having each
> program do one job well and communicate with others part of the "True
> Unix Way"?
> 
> 
> -- 
> Neil Bothwick
> 
> Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.

I installed gnunet. Without dbus. Only had to modify one ebuild because
bluez had a dependency for dbus.

But won't be able to use gnunet-gtk because all gtk greater than 3.10
(or so) depend on dbus.

I hope so much the Gentoo devs keep the -dbus available.

Really busy, and obsessively interested in gnunet...

Regards!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Tom H]

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Miroslav Rovis
 wrote:
>
> Oh I meant SELinux, and pls. be the first to deny there were hooks
> planted in Linux by Linus via the LSM (the Linux Security Module, for
> the general audience), as per:
>
> Developer Raps Linux Security
> http://www.crmbuyer.com/story/39565.html

A 12-year-old article quoting a guy who develops a more or less
competing technology. Sure...

How many LSM CVEs have been issued in these 12 years and how many of
these could be remotely considered to have been purposefully committed
to the linux tree?

There are probably a 1,000, if not 10,000, other conspiracy theories
to which I'd be willing to subscribe before buying into this one.

Re: [gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Mick]

On Sunday 19 Feb 2017 20:02:04 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 19:56:52 +, Mick wrote:
> > > On the other hand,
> > > I can't keep GNOME stuff off my KDE system
> > :
> > :-)
> > :
> > > % qlist -ICv gnome
> > > app-text/gnome-doc-utils-0.20.10-r1
> > > gnome-base/dconf-0.26.0-r1
> > > gnome-base/gconf-3.2.6-r4
> > > gnome-base/gnome-common-3.18.0-r1
> > > gnome-base/gnome-keyring-3.20.0
> > > gnome-base/gsettings-desktop-schemas-3.22.0
> > > gnome-base/gvfs-1.30.3
> > > gnome-base/libglade-2.6.4-r2
> > > gnome-base/librsvg-2.40.16
> > > gnome-extra/polkit-gnome-0.105-r1
> > > gnome-extra/yelp-xsl-3.20.1
> > > x11-libs/gnome-pty-helper-0.40.2
> > > x11-themes/gnome-themes-standard-3.22.2
> > > 
> > > I have no GNOME programs installed, although I do have some GTK
> > > apps.
> > 
> > Yes, NetworkManager no doubt ... plus whatever any Gtk apps could pull
> > in.
> 
> And what pulls in NetworkManager? KDE's power manager with USE=wireless!

Yes!  Madness.  What's wrong with good ol' wpa_supplicant and its GUI?

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 19:56:52 +, Mick wrote:

> > On the other hand,
> > I can't keep GNOME stuff off my KDE system  
> 
> :-)
> 
> 
> > % qlist -ICv gnome
> > app-text/gnome-doc-utils-0.20.10-r1
> > gnome-base/dconf-0.26.0-r1
> > gnome-base/gconf-3.2.6-r4
> > gnome-base/gnome-common-3.18.0-r1
> > gnome-base/gnome-keyring-3.20.0
> > gnome-base/gsettings-desktop-schemas-3.22.0
> > gnome-base/gvfs-1.30.3
> > gnome-base/libglade-2.6.4-r2
> > gnome-base/librsvg-2.40.16
> > gnome-extra/polkit-gnome-0.105-r1
> > gnome-extra/yelp-xsl-3.20.1
> > x11-libs/gnome-pty-helper-0.40.2
> > x11-themes/gnome-themes-standard-3.22.2
> > 
> > I have no GNOME programs installed, although I do have some GTK
> > apps.  
> 
> Yes, NetworkManager no doubt ... plus whatever any Gtk apps could pull
> in.

And what pulls in NetworkManager? KDE's power manager with USE=wireless!


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.


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Re: [gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Mick]

On Sunday 19 Feb 2017 19:37:43 Neil Bothwick wrote:

> > question was how to get rid of KDE libraries/framework.  I replied
> > that Harry would have to get rid of every last KDE-based app(lication)
> > in the process.  There is no such animal as a "small KDE app".
> 
> That's right, because it is all part of the environment and will require
> kdelibs at the very least. But ditching KDE altogether should be fairly
> straightforward, although I have never tried to do it. On the other hand,
> I can't keep GNOME stuff off my KDE system

:-)


> % qlist -ICv gnome
> app-text/gnome-doc-utils-0.20.10-r1
> gnome-base/dconf-0.26.0-r1
> gnome-base/gconf-3.2.6-r4
> gnome-base/gnome-common-3.18.0-r1
> gnome-base/gnome-keyring-3.20.0
> gnome-base/gsettings-desktop-schemas-3.22.0
> gnome-base/gvfs-1.30.3
> gnome-base/libglade-2.6.4-r2
> gnome-base/librsvg-2.40.16
> gnome-extra/polkit-gnome-0.105-r1
> gnome-extra/yelp-xsl-3.20.1
> x11-libs/gnome-pty-helper-0.40.2
> x11-themes/gnome-themes-standard-3.22.2
> 
> I have no GNOME programs installed, although I do have some GTK apps.

Yes, NetworkManager no doubt ... plus whatever any Gtk apps could pull in.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 14:21:58 +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:

> > KDE3 had its own IPC protocol, DCOP, that was used as the basis for
> > DBus. Once there was a standard IPC system, there was no need for KDE
> > to maintain its own. GNOME and KDE are integrated suites of software,
> > some form of IPC is necessary for them to function. To ditch DBus,
> > they would have to reinvent the wheel.  
> Yeah, right!

What's that supposed to mean. This is documented fact, plus, if you had
ever used DCOP, you would immediately spot the similarities in DBus.
 
> But I can't go into detailed discussions full time about dbus opaque or

DBus is a protocol specification, where is the opaqueness.

> not. (I really don't expect anybody can deny spender's claims in that
> link on Linux security)...

Allowing programs to communicate with one another will always raise
possibilities for exploitation, but that is not necessarily a reason to
isolate all software from one another. After all, isn't having each
program do one job well and communicate with others part of the "True
Unix Way"?


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.


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Re: [gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 13:28:44 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:

> > >   *IMPORTANT* KDE is obscene about dependancies.  E.g. when a
> > > lightweight pdf-reader was phased out, I looked at various options
> > > including okular.  It's an "itty-bitty-little-applet"... that seems
> > > to pull in 90% of KDE as dependancies.  
> > 
> > If you had read the description of Okular in eix you would have
> > known that it is niether lightweight, nor standalone
> > 
> > "Universal document viewer based on KDE Frameworks"
> > 
> > Calling such an animal an itty-bitty-applet is doing it a grave
> > injustice, as is trying to use it as one.
> > 
> > The thing with KDE is that it is designed as an integrated environment
> > and intended to be used as such. So trying to install an individual
> > program is bound to bring in the backend support stuff.  
> 
>   That's the point I was trying to make.  It's all or nothing.  The
> question was how to get rid of KDE libraries/framework.  I replied
> that Harry would have to get rid of every last KDE-based app(lication)
> in the process.  There is no such animal as a "small KDE app".

That's right, because it is all part of the environment and will require
kdelibs at the very least. But ditching KDE altogether should be fairly
straightforward, although I have never tried to do it. On the other hand,
I can't keep GNOME stuff off my KDE system

% qlist -ICv gnome
app-text/gnome-doc-utils-0.20.10-r1
gnome-base/dconf-0.26.0-r1
gnome-base/gconf-3.2.6-r4
gnome-base/gnome-common-3.18.0-r1
gnome-base/gnome-keyring-3.20.0
gnome-base/gsettings-desktop-schemas-3.22.0
gnome-base/gvfs-1.30.3
gnome-base/libglade-2.6.4-r2
gnome-base/librsvg-2.40.16
gnome-extra/polkit-gnome-0.105-r1
gnome-extra/yelp-xsl-3.20.1
x11-libs/gnome-pty-helper-0.40.2
x11-themes/gnome-themes-standard-3.22.2

I have no GNOME programs installed, although I do have some GTK apps.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

MACINTOSH: Most Applications Crash; If Not, The Operating System Hangs


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Re: [gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Walter Dnes]

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 10:04:29AM +, Neil Bothwick wrote
> On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 22:05:01 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> 
> >   *IMPORTANT* KDE is obscene about dependancies.  E.g. when a
> > lightweight pdf-reader was phased out, I looked at various options
> > including okular.  It's an "itty-bitty-little-applet"... that seems to
> > pull in 90% of KDE as dependancies.
> 
> If you had read the description of Okular in eix you would have
> known that it is niether lightweight, nor standalone
> 
> "Universal document viewer based on KDE Frameworks"
> 
> Calling such an animal an itty-bitty-applet is doing it a grave
> injustice, as is trying to use it as one.
> 
> The thing with KDE is that it is designed as an integrated environment
> and intended to be used as such. So trying to install an individual
> program is bound to bring in the backend support stuff.

  That's the point I was trying to make.  It's all or nothing.  The
question was how to get rid of KDE libraries/framework.  I replied
that Harry would have to get rid of every last KDE-based app(lication)
in the process.  There is no such animal as a "small KDE app".

  It reminds me of Internet Explorer back in the day.  People claimed
that they could "remove Internet Explorer" by deleting "ie.exe".  But
ie.exe was simply a collection of calls to various built-in Windows
libraries.  That's why "it was so small".  Meanwhile Firefox and Opera
had to launch real programs.

-- 
Walter Dnes 
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170219-12:31+, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 11:17:34 +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
Hi, Neil, a fellow hexagenarian like me!

> > But the worse thing in both KDE and Gnome is the dbus, the opaque
> > program that is easily misused against the user. And figuring out about
> > it, and getting rid of it, that was also hard.
> 
> How can it be opague when it is open source.
And so is NSA Linux open source, and is opaque just the same...

Oh I meant SELinux, and pls. be the first to deny there were hooks
planted in Linux by Linus via the LSM (the Linux Security Module, for
the general audience), as per:

Developer Raps Linux Security
(or whatever the exact title, I'm offline, doing just a quick write)
http://www.crmbuyer.com/story/39565.html

> 
> > Are there options for KDE/Gnome without dbus (or d-bus) now?
> 
> KDE3 had its own IPC protocol, DCOP, that was used as the basis for DBus.
> Once there was a standard IPC system, there was no need for KDE to
> maintain its own. GNOME and KDE are integrated suites of software, some
> form of IPC is necessary for them to function. To ditch DBus, they would
> have to reinvent the wheel.
Yeah, right!

But I can't go into detailed discussions full time about dbus opaque or
not. (I really don't expect anybody can deny spender's claims in that
link on Linux security)...

Because I really need to finally solve my (likely) last installation
issue with gnunet:
svn-server setup (need it for gnunet in Air-Gap install)
https://marc.info/?l=gentoo-user=148750543106051=2

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 11:17:34 +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:

> But the worse thing in both KDE and Gnome is the dbus, the opaque
> program that is easily misused against the user. And figuring out about
> it, and getting rid of it, that was also hard.

How can it be opague when it is open source.

> Are there options for KDE/Gnome without dbus (or d-bus) now?

KDE3 had its own IPC protocol, DCOP, that was used as the basis for DBus.
Once there was a standard IPC system, there was no need for KDE to
maintain its own. GNOME and KDE are integrated suites of software, some
form of IPC is necessary for them to function. To ditch DBus, they would
have to reinvent the wheel.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

COBOL: Completely Obsolete Business Oriented Language


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Re: [gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170219-08:45+, Mick wrote:
> On Saturday 18 Feb 2017 22:05:01 Walter Dnes wrote:
> > On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 04:57:52PM -0500, Harry Putnam wrote
> > 
> > > Any advice about slick ways of getting fully updated but dumping kde
> > > on the way.
> > 
> >   *IMPORTANT* KDE is obscene about dependancies.  E.g. when a
> > lightweight pdf-reader was phased out, I looked at various options
> > including okular.  It's an "itty-bitty-little-applet"... that seems to
> > pull in 90% of KDE as dependancies.  If you want to get rid of KDE, you
> > must be prepared to dump every last little KDE app/applet.  It's an
> > all-or-nothing situation.  Sorry.
> > 
> > 1) "eselect profile list" and switch to a basic non-KDE profile of your
> > choice.
> > 
> > 2) "emerge gentoolkit" if not already present.
> > 
> > 3) "cat /var/lib/portage/world" and see what KDE stuff you have.
> > 
> > 4) Unmerge (i.e. "emerge --unmerge) obvious KDE-related stuff that you
> > find in world.
> > 
> > 5) "emerge --depclean" (May not help if you've done "emerge --sync" and
> > not fully updated).
> > 
> >The next 3 steps are going to be repeated several times
> > 
> > 6) "emerge -pv --changed-use --deep --update @world"
> > 
> > 7) You'll probably see portage try to pull KDE back in.  For each lib
> > "fu-bar/foobar" that portage tries to pull in do "equery d fu-bar/foobar"
> > and manually unmerge whatever it finds.  (Note: gentoolkit provides the
> > equery tool).
> > 
> > 8) GOTO 6 (until portage stops trying to pull in KDE stuff).
> 
> As Walter indicates above, the problem is many every day desktop applications 
> have either KDE or Gnome dependencies.  Depending on your needs you may find 
> it inevitable that one or the other desktop environment with its mega-suite 
> of 
> packages will be pulled in.
> -- 
> Regards,
> Mick

True! KDE is not so bad, but it and Gnome, they invent, they imposition
dependencies. Some four years ago now, I wasn't able to easily switch
from KDE to what I use now: plain openbox. I even start it with simply
"startx"...

I wish Harry can do it, but I'm only cautiously optimistic...

I don't know if I would be able to do it now if I had KDE installed,
lots of things have changed in 4 yrs... Lots of things have changed, but
I don't think the impositioning of dependencies by KDE has...

But the worse thing in both KDE and Gnome is the dbus, the opaque program
that is easily misused against the user. And figuring out about it, and
getting rid of it, that was also hard.

Getting sans-dbus is now in Gentoo much much easier, almost readily
available (there's even a dbus useflag since not long time ago).

I was wondering if maybe I was wrong:

Are there options for KDE/Gnome without dbus (or d-bus) now?

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 22:05:01 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:

>   *IMPORTANT* KDE is obscene about dependancies.  E.g. when a
> lightweight pdf-reader was phased out, I looked at various options
> including okular.  It's an "itty-bitty-little-applet"... that seems to
> pull in 90% of KDE as dependancies.

If you had read the description of Okular in eix you would have known that
it is niether lightweight, nor standalone

"Universal document viewer based on KDE Frameworks"

Calling such an animal an itty-bitty-applet is doing it a grave
injustice, as is trying to use it as one.

The thing with KDE is that it is designed as an integrated environment
and intended to be used as such. So trying to install an individual
program is bound to bring in the backend support stuff.

Switching to a non-KDE profile, unmerging everything KDE with

emerge -cav $(qfile -IC kde)

and then installing lxde-meta should do what you want.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The quickest way to a man's heart is through his sternum.


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Re: [gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Mick]

On Saturday 18 Feb 2017 22:05:01 Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 04:57:52PM -0500, Harry Putnam wrote
> 
> > Any advice about slick ways of getting fully updated but dumping kde
> > on the way.
> 
>   *IMPORTANT* KDE is obscene about dependancies.  E.g. when a
> lightweight pdf-reader was phased out, I looked at various options
> including okular.  It's an "itty-bitty-little-applet"... that seems to
> pull in 90% of KDE as dependancies.  If you want to get rid of KDE, you
> must be prepared to dump every last little KDE app/applet.  It's an
> all-or-nothing situation.  Sorry.
> 
> 1) "eselect profile list" and switch to a basic non-KDE profile of your
> choice.
> 
> 2) "emerge gentoolkit" if not already present.
> 
> 3) "cat /var/lib/portage/world" and see what KDE stuff you have.
> 
> 4) Unmerge (i.e. "emerge --unmerge) obvious KDE-related stuff that you
> find in world.
> 
> 5) "emerge --depclean" (May not help if you've done "emerge --sync" and
> not fully updated).
> 
>The next 3 steps are going to be repeated several times
> 
> 6) "emerge -pv --changed-use --deep --update @world"
> 
> 7) You'll probably see portage try to pull KDE back in.  For each lib
> "fu-bar/foobar" that portage tries to pull in do "equery d fu-bar/foobar"
> and manually unmerge whatever it finds.  (Note: gentoolkit provides the
> equery tool).
> 
> 8) GOTO 6 (until portage stops trying to pull in KDE stuff).

As Walter indicates above, the problem is many every day desktop applications 
have either KDE or Gnome dependencies.  Depending on your needs you may find 
it inevitable that one or the other desktop environment with its mega-suite of 
packages will be pulled in.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 04:57:52PM -0500, Harry Putnam wrote

> Any advice about slick ways of getting fully updated but dumping kde
> on the way.

  *IMPORTANT* KDE is obscene about dependancies.  E.g. when a
lightweight pdf-reader was phased out, I looked at various options
including okular.  It's an "itty-bitty-little-applet"... that seems to
pull in 90% of KDE as dependancies.  If you want to get rid of KDE, you
must be prepared to dump every last little KDE app/applet.  It's an
all-or-nothing situation.  Sorry.

1) "eselect profile list" and switch to a basic non-KDE profile of your
choice.

2) "emerge gentoolkit" if not already present.

3) "cat /var/lib/portage/world" and see what KDE stuff you have.

4) Unmerge (i.e. "emerge --unmerge) obvious KDE-related stuff that you
find in world.

5) "emerge --depclean" (May not help if you've done "emerge --sync" and
not fully updated).

   The next 3 steps are going to be repeated several times

6) "emerge -pv --changed-use --deep --update @world"

7) You'll probably see portage try to pull KDE back in.  For each lib
"fu-bar/foobar" that portage tries to pull in do "equery d fu-bar/foobar"
and manually unmerge whatever it finds.  (Note: gentoolkit provides the
equery tool).

8) GOTO 6 (until portage stops trying to pull in KDE stuff).

-- 
Walter Dnes 
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

[gentoo-user] How to dump kde gracefully in favor of lxde

[Harry Putnam]

I've had so much trouble installing gentoo into a vbox vm and then
setting up X that I got really sick of it and found a premade vm
(vmware) and installed... unfortunately I really do not like kde
plazma or really just about anything about kde.  Plus the version is
old enough that its giving plenty of problems with updating... finding
piles and piles of masked pkgs .. masked by EAPI.

I tried just updateing portage to get started but even there its a
herd of headaches.

I don't like kde and really don't want to go thru a bunch of humping
and bumping with it in the middle of things.

Any advice about slick ways of getting fully updated but dumping kde
on the way.