On 2012-06-13, at 10:41, David Cantrell wrote:
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 06:55:31AM -0500, Peter da Silva wrote:
On 2012-06-11, at 13:08, Aaron J. Grier wrote:
On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 03:49:15PM -0500, Peter da Silva wrote:
On 2012-05-19, at 11:43, Michael G Schwern wrote:
Or still using it,
On 2012-06-11, at 13:08, Aaron J. Grier wrote:
On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 03:49:15PM -0500, Peter da Silva wrote:
On 2012-05-19, at 11:43, Michael G Schwern wrote:
Or still using it, basically unchanged, as our primary system
programming language in 2012.
Yeh, it really sucks that in 50 years
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 06:55:31AM -0500, Peter da Silva wrote:
On 2012-06-11, at 13:08, Aaron J. Grier wrote:
On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 03:49:15PM -0500, Peter da Silva wrote:
On 2012-05-19, at 11:43, Michael G Schwern wrote:
Or still using it, basically unchanged, as our primary system
On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 03:49:15PM -0500, Peter da Silva wrote:
On 2012-05-19, at 11:43, Michael G Schwern wrote:
Or still using it, basically unchanged, as our primary system
programming language in 2012.
Yeh, it really sucks that in 50 years nobody has ever been able to
develop a
On 14/05/12 17:28 Luke Kanies wrote:
On May 14, 2012, at 9:06 AM, Robert Rothenberg wrote:
[Snip!]
But Puppet is special in that it's intended to be a *descriptive* language.
So you describe how your servers are to be configured.
Sounds nice, except... it has side effects. Which makes the
Michael G Schwern schw...@pobox.com wrote:
The third is distraction. For some reason every language which started out to
replace C gets distracted by dreams of being an application language. I'm
thinking Java (was originally supposed to run on set top boxes), Objective-C
and C++ It is
Peter da Silva pe...@taronga.com wrote:
I'll give you the fall-through in case.
There are some other things that were fixed in later versions:
Single namespace for structure and union members
No function argument type checking
There are some things that haven't been fixed:
const
Operators
On 2012.5.20 4:40 AM, Peter da Silva wrote:
Smalltalk was also not low level enough to be used as an alternative to C.
It wouldn't even fit in the PDP-11 they started with.
Never claimed it was.
The list was done evaluating C as a language we use and are heavily
influenced
by in 2012.
On May 21, 2012, at 2:22 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:
This is a personal observation, folks to code C like details of bits and
registers and hardware details and such.
Novices like to prattle on about C being just another assembly
language, but they don't know what they're talking about.
On 2012-05-21, at 16:22, Michael G Schwern wrote:
The first is the enemy of the best is good enough and C was good enough...
for a time. It solved a problem (portable machine programming) better and
faster than its contemporaries and even much later languages.
Not just good enough, I used
On 2012-05-19, at 16:54, Michael G Schwern wrote:
Smalltalk was in production in 72 making it a contemporary with C. Smalltalk
80 was the first released version, roughly coinciding with the KR book. And
Simula had all the trappings of a modern OO language (and a lot most still
don't have) in
On 18 May 2012 22:07, Michael G Schwern schw...@pobox.com wrote:
switch fall through. (still a classic mistake).
I guess you mean defaulting to falling through? Yeah that probably
should have defaulted to the other way, even though C's approach
matches what actually happens. On the other hand i
* Michael G Schwern schw...@pobox.com [2012-05-19 18:50]:
Or still using it, basically unchanged, as our primary system
programming language in 2012.
Indeed: why oh why… One has to wonder.
On 19 May 2012, at 21:38, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
* Michael G Schwern schw...@pobox.com [2012-05-19 18:50]:
Or still using it, basically unchanged, as our primary system
programming language in 2012.
Indeed: why oh why… One has to wonder.
Just to play the devil sitting on the devil's
On 2012-05-18, at 15:07, Michael G Schwern wrote:
Bagging on C is like bagging on Shakespeare. They were severely limited in
hardware, didn't have a whole lot of prior art to go on and not a whole lot of
people to talk to about it. Smalltalk, ML, Pascal, Prolog, Lisp and SQL all
came out about
On 2012-05-19, at 11:43, Michael G Schwern wrote:
Or still using it, basically unchanged, as our primary system programming
language in 2012.
Yeh, it really sucks that in 50 years nobody has ever been able to develop a
genuinely better alternative.
On 2012.5.19 1:46 PM, Peter da Silva wrote:
Smalltalk came out ten years later.
Smalltalk was in production in 72 making it a contemporary with C. Smalltalk
80 was the first released version, roughly coinciding with the KR book. And
Simula had all the trappings of a modern OO language (and a
On 2012.5.15 1:41 PM, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote:
Otherwise I haven't come across this problem in other major languages...
except maybe C. And original C has so many design flaws that the list would
become useless.
You will have to back that up somehow, laddie. And get offa my lawn.
I've
* Greg McCarroll g...@mccarroll.org.uk [2012-05-19 23:00]:
Lisp machines[1] didn't exactly take off. C++/STL didn't have anyone
build upon it for other languages significantly (i'm sure i'm about to
be proven wrong here) , just for sheer mischief i'll mention Topaz[2].
Bagging on C as a
On 2012.5.15 1:41 PM, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote:
Otherwise I haven't come across this problem in other major languages...
except maybe C. And original C has so many design flaws that the list would
become useless.
You will have to back that up somehow, laddie. And get offa my lawn.
(I can
And since you asked, off the top of my head...
[ a long list snipped]
Now, tell us how you *really* feel about C?
In case you didn't guess it yet, I was playing advocatus diaboli in
reverse here. (In modernese: trolling.) In other words, your list
and argument was good, though many items
On 2012.5.14 9:38 AM, demerphq wrote:
On 14 May 2012 14:34, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote:
I wouldn't mind if it was disabled by default and if I had to explicitly
enable it per file, with something like 'no strict cpp'.
Couldnt this just be a filter/preprocessor thingee?
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 01:41:09PM -0700, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote:
[...]
Otherwise I haven't come across this problem in other major languages...
except maybe C. And original C has so many design flaws that the list
would become useless.
You will have to back that up somehow, laddie. And get
On 2012-05-15, at 15:39, Michael G Schwern wrote:
I've heard that same story but about the hard tab in make. Smells like an
urban legend... or proof that programmers care too much about backwards
compatibility.
Well, he really did say there were N sites using it, and N was small. But it
was
On 05/16/2012 03:22 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 01:41:09PM -0700, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote:
[...]
Otherwise I haven't come across this problem in other major languages...
except maybe C. And original C has so many design flaws that the list
would become useless.
You will
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 10:22:55AM -0700, Robert G. Werner wrote:
On 05/16/2012 03:22 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:
[...]
I'd like to see somebody try and write an operating system kernel in Perl
:)
I'm sure it could be written, ... once
There is the Perlix userspace:
On 2012-05-14, at 10:58, H.Merijn Brand wrote:
Reminds me of an April-fools article introducing COME FROM to the
language to ease debugging. In the end of that article they also
described COME FROM ON Hilarious
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COMEFROM
On 2012-05-14, at 07:51, David Cantrell wrote:
For extra excitement, perl has this nifty feature where you can index
from the end of an array using negative numbers:
@array = ('ant', 'bat', 'camel', 'dolphin');
print $array[-1]; # dolphin
print $array[-2]; # camel
That really _is_ a nifty
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 05:15:56AM -0500, Peter da Silva wrote:
On 2012-05-14, at 07:51, David Cantrell wrote:
For extra excitement, perl has this nifty feature where you can index
from the end of an array using negative numbers:
@array = ('ant', 'bat', 'camel', 'dolphin');
print
Well, while we're ranting about stupid language design desisions...
I would like to dish out a special platter of hate for Puppet.
Well, not a programming language per se.
But Puppet is special in that it's intended to be a *descriptive* language.
So you describe how your servers are to be
Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.org wrote:
I'm personally of the opinion that they should abandon the custom DSL in
favor of a pure ruby implementation, but I seem to be on the losing end
of that argument.
This is one of the weirder design decisions of Puppet, given how
fashionable embedded
On 15 May 2012 12:22, Peter da Silva pe...@taronga.com wrote:
On 2012-05-14, at 10:58, H.Merijn Brand wrote:
Reminds me of an April-fools article introducing COME FROM to the
language to ease debugging. In the end of that article they also
described COME FROM ON Hilarious
On 2012.5.14 2:44 AM, Numien wrote:
But, that is another good point:
* We'll add file access and persistent storage later
Still don't count that as a design mistake in Javascript, but a design
feature. It was designed as a secure language and that means very, very
restricted I/O and storage.
On 2012.5.14 5:08 AM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
* Peter Corlett ab...@cabal.org.uk [2012-05-14 12:20]:
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 11:06:59AM +0200, demerphq wrote:
I kinda wish perl had an interface like
my $iter= iterator(%hash);
while (my ($key,$value)= $iter-each) { }
Which I think would
On 2012.5.14 2:06 AM, demerphq wrote:
On 14 May 2012 02:17, Michael G Schwern schw...@pobox.com wrote:
So much hate for tying the iterator to the data and not the op.
Indeed. I see this bite people regularly at $work (non Perl
programmers converting seem to get bitten by each() at least once
On 2012.5.14 2:47 AM, H.Merijn Brand wrote:
* undef/NULL handling
* Oracle converts to NULL on varchar2 fields
* MySQL considers the date -00-00 both NULL and NOT NULL at
the same time
I would boil that down to trinary logic. A good idea that NOBODY gets it
right. If you do
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 1:58 AM, Michael G Schwern schw...@pobox.com wrote:
The only other instance I can think of is... damn I can't remember the name.
It's the one that makes URLs like /foo/bar/123,3598,235.html. You write in
Java and everything, even the templates, is stored in Oracle.
On May 14, 2012, at 12:00 AM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
* Peter da Silva pe...@taronga.com [2012-05-14 02:45]:
* Imagining that there's some relationship between computer languages
and human languages.
* See COBOL
* See Perl
* Imagining that there's no relationship between computer
* Peter da Silva pe...@taronga.com [2012-05-14 02:45]:
* Imagining that there's some relationship between computer languages
and human languages.
* See COBOL
* See Perl
* Imagining that there's no relationship between computer languages and
linguistic cognition.
* Mathematical
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Aristotle Pagaltzis pagalt...@gmx.de wrote:
* Mathematical notation is ideal for programming!
See also: the thousands of new programmers confused by x = 5; not
meaning x is equal to 5, despite what they had learned in maths
class.
(I'm reminded of a BASIC
On 2012.5.13 11:06 PM, Philip Newton wrote:
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 1:58 AM, Michael G Schwern schw...@pobox.com wrote:
The only other instance I can think of is... damn I can't remember the name.
It's the one that makes URLs like /foo/bar/123,3598,235.html. You write in
Java and everything,
On 2012.5.13 11:18 PM, Numien wrote:
On 13/05/12 07:58 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:
I can forgive Javascript of that because it has no file operations by (good)
design and thus no way to load other files.
Sure it does. See XMLHttpRequest the new HTML5 web storage, app cache, and
socket
On 2012-05-14, at 02:00, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
* Peter da Silva pe...@taronga.com [2012-05-14 02:45]:
* Imagining that there's some relationship between computer languages
and human languages.
* See COBOL
* See Perl
* Imagining that there's no relationship between computer languages
Peter da Silva pe...@taronga.com wrote:
* Imagining that there's some relationship between computer languages and
human languages.
* See COBOL
* See Perl
See AppleScript. Here's an epic rant on the subject:
http://daringfireball.net/2005/09/english-likeness_monster
Tony.
--
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 07:35:39PM -0500, Peter da Silva wrote:
[...]
Like *x for indirection. Even Dennis agrees that was a mistake. He said
that by the time he noticed it there were three sites using C so they
thought it was probably too late to fix it.
I heard the there were three sites
Andy Armstrong a...@hexten.net wrote:
On 13 May 2012, at 18:48, Michael G Schwern wrote:
* Lists count from 0
* Everybody does it
* Everybody's wrong
* See also let's just paste what C does
I find it very hard to live with Lua's 1-based arrays. I don't think
it's just familiarity -
On 2012-05-14, at 05:03, Peter Corlett wrote:
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 07:35:39PM -0500, Peter da Silva wrote:
[...]
Like *x for indirection. Even Dennis agrees that was a mistake. He said
that by the time he noticed it there were three sites using C so they
thought it was probably too late to
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 10:54:39AM +0100, Tony Finch wrote:
Andy Armstrong a...@hexten.net wrote:
On 13 May 2012, at 18:48, Michael G Schwern wrote:
* Lists count from 0
* Everybody does it
* Everybody's wrong
* See also let's just paste what C does
I find it very hard to
On 14 May 2012 02:17, Michael G Schwern schw...@pobox.com wrote:
So much hate for tying the iterator to the data and not the op.
Indeed. I see this bite people regularly at $work (non Perl
programmers converting seem to get bitten by each() at least once in
their career).
In the case of hashes
OOn 14/05/12 04:03 AM, Michael G Schwern wrote:
AFAIK none of that is part of the Javascript language (ie. the ECMAscript).
They're all special objects with their own standards and require special
implementations. I don't believe you can write them in Javascript. And it's
all fairly recent
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 11:06:59AM +0200, demerphq wrote:
[...]
I kinda wish perl had an interface like
my $iter= iterator(%hash);
while (my ($key,$value)= $iter-each) { }
Which I think would be sane. You could even pass the iterator without
passing the hash itself. (Preventing
Peter Corlett ab...@cabal.org.uk wrote:
I'd like to throw in the fun breakage caused by the combination of adding
two unnecessary bits of syntactic sugar to Perl. Somebody decided that
auto-deref would be nice, so you can do each $hashref and pop $arrayref.
And then somebody else clearly
Michael G Schwern schw...@pobox.com wrote:
On 2012.5.13 11:36 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:
I'd like to throw in the fun breakage caused by the combination of adding
two unnecessary bits of syntactic sugar to Perl. Somebody decided that
auto-deref would be nice, so you can do each $hashref and pop
Walt Mankowski waltman-hates-softw...@mawode.com wrote:
* Everything is a string.
* Tcl
I like the term stringly typed.
Tony.
--
f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/
Shannon: Northwest 5 to 7, perhaps gale 8 later. Rough or very rough. Showers.
Good, occasionally moderate.
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 10:48:13AM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
* Auto declare undeclared variables
* PHP, Ruby
* Typo protection out the window
* Perl (unless you enable 'use strict vars', and don't fully qualify
your vars; no such protection possible on subs if you use
On Sun, 13 May 2012 10:48:13 -0700, Michael G Schwern
schw...@pobox.com wrote:
* A typed language with no way to define new types
* SQL
* Follow the standard only optionally
All SQL dialects allow spaces as the SQL standard sais
SELECT bar, count (*) FROM frublt GROUP BY bar;
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 11:47 AM, H.Merijn Brand h.m.br...@xs4all.nl wrote:
* Oracle converts to NULL on varchar2 fields
Oh goodness yes. Whoever thought that was a good idea? And built such
an SQL incompatibility into a major database engine?
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton
On Sun, 13 May 2012 10:48:13 -0700, Michael G Schwern
schw...@pobox.com wrote:
* Significant whitespace
* Python
* Oh god why Kurila
* YAML does it right
* So does Ruby
One more (besides what I wrote about MySQL)
C-preprocessor. The only compiler I know of that does it wrong
Michael G Schwern schw...@pobox.com wrote:
* No namespaces
* Lua, Javascript
Lua does have namespaces, by changing which table is used for globals.
There are amusing incompatibilities in this area between 5.1 and 5.2 ...
Tony.
--
f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/
Fisher,
* Peter Corlett ab...@cabal.org.uk [2012-05-14 12:20]:
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 11:06:59AM +0200, demerphq wrote:
I kinda wish perl had an interface like
my $iter= iterator(%hash);
while (my ($key,$value)= $iter-each) { }
Which I think would be sane. You could even pass the iterator
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 08:06:28AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 1:58 AM, Michael G Schwern schw...@pobox.com wrote:
The only other instance I can think of is... damn I can't remember the name.
It's the one that makes URLs like /foo/bar/123,3598,235.html. You write in
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 01:28:45PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
Storyserver was supposed to be a
content management system, but when I used it it couldn't handle binary
file uploads - so you couldn't use it to upload images. Their
solution to this was to send us some C source which was untested,
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 2:28 PM, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote:
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 08:06:28AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
Vignette StoryServer?
I had a bit of a go with that... back when the language was Tcl, not Java.
Fun times. Especially counting the backslashes. Do we need
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 03:01:05PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
because we don't have a compiler in the UK.
That makes me wonder whether UK refers to the Ukraine in this context
What an extremely odd thing for a company to say.
What our client said was odder. They said we want you to use
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 04:58:49PM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
On 2012.5.13 3:41 PM, David Cantrell wrote:
Perl used to have this. It was called #include. It's a damned shame
that -P got killed off. Removing it was hateful.
Let's run one language through another language's
On 14 May 2012 14:34, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote:
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 04:58:49PM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
On 2012.5.13 3:41 PM, David Cantrell wrote:
Perl used to have this. It was called #include. It's a damned shame
that -P got killed off. Removing it was
On 2012-05-14, at 06:07, Aaron Crane wrote:
Since these two enhancements aren't entirely compatible, the current
situation is unfortunate: a +-prototyped argument must be an
unblessed array or hash ref — not a blessed reference, and not an
autovivifying undef (so `push $x, list` doesn't work on
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 11:20:37AM -0400, Sean Conner wrote:
[...]
Are you kidding? It can get much worse than that. I came across a language
[1] that allows for patterm matched random GOSUBs (and that's the general
case---it can do GOSUBs like other langauges, but it can also do random
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 11:13:05AM +0200, Abigail wrote:
* Let's make where to count from a switch -- globally
* Perl (till it got removed from the language)
Nope. From the manpage:
As of release 5 of Perl, assignment to $[ is treated as a compiler
directive, and cannot influence the
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 2:51 PM, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote:
For extra excitement, perl has this nifty feature where you can index
from the end of an array using negative numbers:
@array = ('ant', 'bat', 'camel', 'dolphin');
print $array[-1]; # dolphin
print $array[-2]; #
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 01:51:11PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 11:13:05AM +0200, Abigail wrote:
* Let's make where to count from a switch -- globally
* Perl (till it got removed from the language)
Nope. From the manpage:
As of release 5 of Perl, assignment
Well, while we're ranting about stupid language design desisions...
I would like to dish out a special platter of hate for Puppet.
Well, not a programming language per se.
But Puppet is special in that it's intended to be a *descriptive* language.
So you describe how your servers are to be
On 13/05/12 01:48 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:
The rpmbuild post reminded me of my list of stupid language designer tricks.
This is a file I add to every time I read about some stupid mistake (or
brilliant feature) in a language and think if I ever write a language I am
remembering not to do
On 13 May 2012, at 18:48, Michael G Schwern wrote:
* Lists count from 0
* Everybody does it
* Everybody's wrong
* See also let's just paste what C does
I find it very hard to live with Lua's 1-based arrays. I don't think it's just
familiarity - lots of index calculations work out
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 02:13:28PM -0400, Numien wrote:
On 13/05/12 01:48 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:
The rpmbuild post reminded me of my list of stupid language designer
tricks.
This is a file I add to every time I read about some stupid mistake (or
brilliant feature) in a language and
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 10:48:13AM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
[...]
* Lists count from 0
* Everybody does it
* Everybody's wrong
* See also let's just paste what C does
0's good because it avoids fencepost errors. Perhaps you would prefer the
Stan Kelly-Bootle compromise of 0.5?
On 2012.5.13 3:41 PM, David Cantrell wrote:
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 02:13:28PM -0400, Numien wrote:
On 13/05/12 01:48 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote:
The rpmbuild post reminded me of my list of stupid language designer
tricks.
This is a file I add to every time I read about some stupid mistake
* Andy Armstrong a...@hexten.net [2012-05-13 20:05]:
I find it very hard to live with Lua's 1-based arrays. I don't think
it's just familiarity - lots of index calculations work out
significantly more verbose and ugly with 1-based arrays.
Ever since I’ve dealt with them in XPath I would add
On 2012.5.13 11:36 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:
I'd like to throw in the fun breakage caused by the combination of adding
two unnecessary bits of syntactic sugar to Perl. Somebody decided that
auto-deref would be nice, so you can do each $hashref and pop $arrayref.
And then somebody else clearly
On 2012-05-13, at 19:09, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
* Andy Armstrong a...@hexten.net [2012-05-13 20:05]:
I find it very hard to live with Lua's 1-based arrays. I don't think
it's just familiarity - lots of index calculations work out
significantly more verbose and ugly with 1-based arrays.
On 2012-05-13, at 12:59, Andy Armstrong wrote:
On 13 May 2012, at 18:48, Michael G Schwern wrote:
* Lists count from 0
* Everybody does it
* Everybody's wrong
* See also let's just paste what C does
I find it very hard to live with Lua's 1-based arrays. I don't think it's just
familiarity -
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 10:48:13AM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
* We'll add threads later.
* Perl
* We'll add classes later.
* C
* Perl
* Everything is a string.
* Tcl
On 2012-05-13, at 20:55, Walt Mankowski wrote:
* We'll add classes later.
* C
Classes were still a kind of experimental idea in 1970, and it wasn't at all clear they'd ever be able to be implemented efficiently in something like C.
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 09:07:56PM -0500, Peter da Silva wrote:
On 2012-05-13, at 20:55, Walt Mankowski wrote:
* We'll add classes later.
* C
Classes were still a kind of experimental idea in 1970, and it
wasn't at all clear they'd ever be able to be implemented
efficiently in something
On May 13, 2012, at 7:13 PM, Walt Mankowski wrote:
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 09:07:56PM -0500, Peter da Silva wrote:
On 2012-05-13, at 20:55, Walt Mankowski wrote:
* We'll add classes later.
* C
Classes were still a kind of experimental idea in 1970, and it
wasn't at all clear they'd ever be
On 2012-05-13, at 21:13, Walt Mankowski wrote:
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 09:07:56PM -0500, Peter da Silva wrote:
On 2012-05-13, at 20:55, Walt Mankowski wrote:
* We'll add classes later.
* C
Classes were still a kind of experimental idea in 1970, and it
wasn't at all clear they'd ever be able
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