Re: Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here
Kirk, Yes, I agree also and the ability to read a manualhave a ton of customers who don't even take the time to rtfm..l Scott ford www.identityforge.com On Jun 1, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Kirk Talman rkueb...@tsys.com wrote: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu wrote on 05/23/2012 05:39:26 PM: From: Roberts, John J jrobe...@dhs.state.ia.us When the last Cobol programmers walk out the door, so may 50 years of business processes within the software they created. Will you be ready? Ed, Interesting article and fairly accurate IMO. This is what I can foresee happening: (1) Many companies will try to offshore their COBOL application support. But this won't work so well because it is hard enough to understand these systems without facing the complications of language and arcane terminology. And the young ones back in Bangalore will want to do Java, not COBOL. Actually the language is not a problem. We have people here from multiple nations, some whose English is lacking. But they can doing the programming work - well. The problem is the lack of application knowledge. We just had a senior person retire to a ranch in FL. He was senior person in his critical application. He ran a series of weekly one hour technical seminars. The problem was that he could answer any question off the top of his head. But an organized overview and drill down into each part of the system and the relationship of that system to multiple other systems was not there. He was used to being a S(ubject)M(atter)E(xpert)/guru. Ask him a question and he could answer it or tell you where to find the answer. Without that kind of person, trying to port the application to anything else is risky as is training newbies. (2) Other companies will want to recruit overseas, either for CS grads that they can train, or for those few that are willing to invest in COBOL learning if that is what it takes to punch that H1B ticket. But even so, once here they are all going to be looking to do something else, not COBOL. So that company that recruits and trains a COBOL resource is going to be looking for a replacement within a couple years. We have had over the years training programs to build new Cobol programmers. They work fine. But again, the application knowledge is not in books. It was transmitted by SMEs. (3) Efforts to train new young COBOL resources are going to flop, as the article mentions. Again, everyone expects COBOL to be a career dead-end once beyond a 5 to 10 year transition period. Since Cobol is now talking to distributed applications in various ways, Cobol people are getting exposure to distributed applications. I recently had a project transferred from me which was going to have me build part of an environment that is both mainframe and distributed. As long as the documentation is there, there is not a huge chasm to cross. (4) In the end, US companies are going to be forced to pay a premium just to hang on to their old-timers long enough to buy time to implement that new ERP package or new custom application. The ones that will be successful doing this are going to be the ones that accommodate their senior developer's desires: lots of time off, telecommuting, job sharing, benefits, etc. Right now at the moment there are enough Cobol programmers leaving other companies that is still a supply of new people, some of which have fine skill sets. But as time goes on, there will be a cliff. I just returned from Germany. There was talk there that there is an engineering shortage in the market there. Never bothered with the details. Maybe the recession there will give them time to kick the can down the road more. After all, it has been working so well for dealing with their financial problems. John - The information contained in this communication (including any attachments hereto) is confidential and is intended solely for the personal and confidential use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying, or unauthorized use of this information, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message. Thank you -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff
Re: Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here
I refuse to walk out. They will have to carry out in a box or bag. After 4 decades of doing Cobol on mainframe, it is less obnoxious than any alternative I have right now - and they pay you to do it and give you insurance. Besides now I am getting back into assembler. This is too much fun to quit. IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu wrote on 05/23/2012 04:31:39 PM: From: Ed Gould edgould1...@comcast.net Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here -When the last Cobol programmers walk out the door, so may 50 years of business processes within the software they created. Will you be ready? http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9227263/The_Cobol_Brain_Drain? taxonomyId=154 - The information contained in this communication (including any attachments hereto) is confidential and is intended solely for the personal and confidential use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying, or unauthorized use of this information, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message. Thank you -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here
IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu wrote on 05/23/2012 05:39:26 PM: From: Roberts, John J jrobe...@dhs.state.ia.us When the last Cobol programmers walk out the door, so may 50 years of business processes within the software they created. Will you be ready? Ed, Interesting article and fairly accurate IMO. This is what I can foresee happening: (1) Many companies will try to offshore their COBOL application support. But this won't work so well because it is hard enough to understand these systems without facing the complications of language and arcane terminology. And the young ones back in Bangalore will want to do Java, not COBOL. Actually the language is not a problem. We have people here from multiple nations, some whose English is lacking. But they can doing the programming work - well. The problem is the lack of application knowledge. We just had a senior person retire to a ranch in FL. He was senior person in his critical application. He ran a series of weekly one hour technical seminars. The problem was that he could answer any question off the top of his head. But an organized overview and drill down into each part of the system and the relationship of that system to multiple other systems was not there. He was used to being a S(ubject)M(atter)E(xpert)/guru. Ask him a question and he could answer it or tell you where to find the answer. Without that kind of person, trying to port the application to anything else is risky as is training newbies. (2) Other companies will want to recruit overseas, either for CS grads that they can train, or for those few that are willing to invest in COBOL learning if that is what it takes to punch that H1B ticket. But even so, once here they are all going to be looking to do something else, not COBOL. So that company that recruits and trains a COBOL resource is going to be looking for a replacement within a couple years. We have had over the years training programs to build new Cobol programmers. They work fine. But again, the application knowledge is not in books. It was transmitted by SMEs. (3) Efforts to train new young COBOL resources are going to flop, as the article mentions. Again, everyone expects COBOL to be a career dead-end once beyond a 5 to 10 year transition period. Since Cobol is now talking to distributed applications in various ways, Cobol people are getting exposure to distributed applications. I recently had a project transferred from me which was going to have me build part of an environment that is both mainframe and distributed. As long as the documentation is there, there is not a huge chasm to cross. (4) In the end, US companies are going to be forced to pay a premium just to hang on to their old-timers long enough to buy time to implement that new ERP package or new custom application. The ones that will be successful doing this are going to be the ones that accommodate their senior developer's desires: lots of time off, telecommuting, job sharing, benefits, etc. Right now at the moment there are enough Cobol programmers leaving other companies that is still a supply of new people, some of which have fine skill sets. But as time goes on, there will be a cliff. I just returned from Germany. There was talk there that there is an engineering shortage in the market there. Never bothered with the details. Maybe the recession there will give them time to kick the can down the road more. After all, it has been working so well for dealing with their financial problems. John - The information contained in this communication (including any attachments hereto) is confidential and is intended solely for the personal and confidential use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying, or unauthorized use of this information, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message. Thank you -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here
Now, folks want to assert that today's youngsters are too stupid to turn into COBOL programmers? Well, dang it, sonny - the same thing was said about us back in the day - and see how that turned out. I don't think anyone is trying to claim that younger people can't learn COBOL. After all, I was one of those 90 day wonders too. But it is more accurate to say that: (1) Nothing can replace the tribal knowledge the soon to retire old-timers possess about the apps they support, and (2) A young person would be foolish to commit to a career in mainframe technologies when most of us can foresee a long decline. In the end, only the earliest adopters (big banks, insurance) will have COBOL systems, simply because it will be almost impossible for them to do a big bang replacement. John -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here
When the last Cobol programmers walk out the door, so may 50 years of business processes within the software they created. Will you be ready? http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9227263/The_Cobol_Brain_Drain? taxonomyId=154 Ed, Interesting article and fairly accurate IMO. This is what I can foresee happening: (1) Many companies will try to offshore their COBOL application support. But this won't work so well because it is hard enough to understand these systems without facing the complications of language and arcane terminology. And the young ones back in Bangalore will want to do Java, not COBOL. (2) Other companies will want to recruit overseas, either for CS grads that they can train, or for those few that are willing to invest in COBOL learning if that is what it takes to punch that H1B ticket. But even so, once here they are all going to be looking to do something else, not COBOL. So that company that recruits and trains a COBOL resource is going to be looking for a replacement within a couple years. (3) Efforts to train new young COBOL resources are going to flop, as the article mentions. Again, everyone expects COBOL to be a career dead-end once beyond a 5 to 10 year transition period. (4) In the end, US companies are going to be forced to pay a premium just to hang on to their old-timers long enough to buy time to implement that new ERP package or new custom application. The ones that will be successful doing this are going to be the ones that accommodate their senior developer's desires: lots of time off, telecommuting, job sharing, benefits, etc. John -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here
On 5/23/2012 3:39 PM, Roberts, John J wrote: When the last Cobol programmers walk out the door, so may 50 years of business processes within the software they created. Will you be ready? http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9227263/The_Cobol_Brain_Drain? taxonomyId=154 Ed, Interesting article and fairly accurate IMO. This is what I can foresee happening: (1) Many companies will try to offshore their COBOL application support. But this won't work so well because it is hard enough to understand these systems without facing the complications of language and arcane terminology. And the young ones back in Bangalore will want to do Java, not COBOL. (2) Other companies will want to recruit overseas, either for CS grads that they can train, or for those few that are willing to invest in COBOL learning if that is what it takes to punch that H1B ticket. But even so, once here they are all going to be looking to do something else, not COBOL. So that company that recruits and trains a COBOL resource is going to be looking for a replacement within a couple years. (3) Efforts to train new young COBOL resources are going to flop, as the article mentions. Again, everyone expects COBOL to be a career dead-end once beyond a 5 to 10 year transition period. Not everyone. (4) In the end, US companies are going to be forced to pay a premium just to hang on to their old-timers long enough to buy time to implement that new ERP package or new custom application. The ones that will be successful doing this are going to be the ones that accommodate their senior developer's desires: lots of time off, telecommuting, job sharing, benefits, etc. John Ahem. We can help. Our problem is reaching the right people. We have a low visibility to training directors and above for most companies, even after more than three decades of providing top quality training to many mainframe organizations. Just too tech-y and not enough sales-y, I guess. So, everybody: help us and your company out: find out who is responsibile for your z/OS applications programmer training and pass this on... There seems to be a resurgence in attention being paid to the mainframe, to z/OS, and to COBOL. For good reason: * z/OS is still the premier operating system in terms of performance, security, and business services * COBOL has been modernized to work with new technologies: + Works with data encoded in ASCII and Unicode + WOrks with data stored in XML + Works with the web - COBOL CGIs can handle transactions from the web, accessing data from VSAM or DB2, then formatting output web pages (HTML) that include the requested information - can even serve up audio, video, and other multimedia files * COBOL is a clear, understandable language that is easy to code, debug, and maintain * COBOL code performs well, with no need for the overhead of Java, for example The Trainer's Friend has a complete z/OS COBOL curriculum, that can: * teach new COBOL developers how to code, test, debug, and maintain programs written in COBOL * teach experienced COBOL programmers new features of the language * teach experienced COBOL programmers how to use COBOL to work with facilities of z/OS such as Language Environment, DB2, CICS, and z/OS UNIX We can teach classes on your site, so the students learn on their own environment. We can license materials so your instructors can teach your students as many classes as needed for just a one time charge. Check out the COBOL curriculum at: http://www.trainersfriend.com/COBOL_Courses/cobolcurr.htm The Trainer's Friend, Inc. is a well-respected company that has been incorporated since 1989, longer than most of our competition. We pride ourselves on our top quality training materials and our dynamic instructors. Visit our website; drop us a line; give us a call - ask questions, explore. Train. Thanks. -- Kind regards, -Steve Comstock The Trainer's Friend, Inc. 303-355-2752 http://www.trainersfriend.com * To get a good Return on your Investment, first make an investment! + Training your people is an excellent investment * Try our tool for calculating your Return On Investment for training dollars at http://www.trainersfriend.com/ROI/roi.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here
Only if you are an incompetent company... From: Ed Gould edgould1...@comcast.net To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:31 PM Subject: Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here -When the last Cobol programmers walk out the door, so may 50 years of business processes within the software they created. Will you be ready? http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9227263/The_Cobol_Brain_Drain?taxonomyId=154 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here
I'm almost old enough to admit I'm old. I remember a time when businesses would take the brightest young business minds they had, turn them over to folks like Steve (good teachers) for 90 days, and get back ... COBOL programmers who understood the business. Oddly enough, it was those 90-day wonders that ground out mass quantities of what is now called that moldy old COBOL code. Now, folks want to assert that today's youngsters are too stupid to turn into COBOL programmers? Well, dang it, sonny - the same thing was said about us back in the day - and see how that turned out. Tom Puddicombe Mainframe Performance Capacity Planning CSC 31 Brookdale Rd, Meriden, CT 06450 ITIS | (860) 428-3252 | tpudd...@csc.com | www.csc.com This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. From: Steve Comstock st...@trainersfriend.com To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Date: 05/23/2012 05:55 PM Subject:Re: Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu On 5/23/2012 3:39 PM, Roberts, John J wrote: When the last Cobol programmers walk out the door, so may 50 years of business processes within the software they created. Will you be ready? http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9227263/The_Cobol_Brain_Drain? taxonomyId=154 Ed, Interesting article and fairly accurate IMO. This is what I can foresee happening: (1) Many companies will try to offshore their COBOL application support. But this won't work so well because it is hard enough to understand these systems without facing the complications of language and arcane terminology. And the young ones back in Bangalore will want to do Java, not COBOL. (2) Other companies will want to recruit overseas, either for CS grads that they can train, or for those few that are willing to invest in COBOL learning if that is what it takes to punch that H1B ticket. But even so, once here they are all going to be looking to do something else, not COBOL. So that company that recruits and trains a COBOL resource is going to be looking for a replacement within a couple years. (3) Efforts to train new young COBOL resources are going to flop, as the article mentions. Again, everyone expects COBOL to be a career dead-end once beyond a 5 to 10 year transition period. Not everyone. (4) In the end, US companies are going to be forced to pay a premium just to hang on to their old-timers long enough to buy time to implement that new ERP package or new custom application. The ones that will be successful doing this are going to be the ones that accommodate their senior developer's desires: lots of time off, telecommuting, job sharing, benefits, etc. John Ahem. We can help. Our problem is reaching the right people. We have a low visibility to training directors and above for most companies, even after more than three decades of providing top quality training to many mainframe organizations. Just too tech-y and not enough sales-y, I guess. So, everybody: help us and your company out: find out who is responsibile for your z/OS applications programmer training and pass this on... There seems to be a resurgence in attention being paid to the mainframe, to z/OS, and to COBOL. For good reason: * z/OS is still the premier operating system in terms of performance, security, and business services * COBOL has been modernized to work with new technologies: + Works with data encoded in ASCII and Unicode + WOrks with data stored in XML + Works with the web - COBOL CGIs can handle transactions from the web, accessing data from VSAM or DB2, then formatting output web pages (HTML) that include the requested information - can even serve up audio, video, and other multimedia files * COBOL is a clear, understandable language that is easy to code, debug, and maintain * COBOL code performs well, with no need for the overhead of Java, for example The Trainer's Friend has a complete z/OS COBOL curriculum, that can: * teach new COBOL developers how to code, test, debug, and maintain programs written in COBOL * teach experienced COBOL programmers new features of the language * teach experienced COBOL programmers how to use COBOL to work with facilities of z/OS such as Language Environment, DB2, CICS, and z/OS UNIX We can teach classes on your site, so the students learn on their own environment. We can license materials so your instructors can teach your students as many classes as needed for just a one time charge. Check out the COBOL curriculum at: http://www.trainersfriend.com
Re: Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here
Indeed, this is exactly what our company does. Our newest COBOL victim/developer (g) was working in a non-IT part of the company. I myself came from such a place. As have a not insignificant number of our other COBOL programmers. From: Thomas H Puddicombe tpudd...@csc.com To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 5:26 PM Subject: Re: Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here I'm almost old enough to admit I'm old. I remember a time when businesses would take the brightest young business minds they had, turn them over to folks like Steve (good teachers) for 90 days, and get back ... COBOL programmers who understood the business. Oddly enough, it was those 90-day wonders that ground out mass quantities of what is now called that moldy old COBOL code. Now, folks want to assert that today's youngsters are too stupid to turn into COBOL programmers? Well, dang it, sonny - the same thing was said about us back in the day - and see how that turned out. Tom Puddicombe Mainframe Performance Capacity Planning CSC 31 Brookdale Rd, Meriden, CT 06450 ITIS | (860) 428-3252 | tpudd...@csc.com | www.csc.com This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. From: Steve Comstock st...@trainersfriend.com To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Date: 05/23/2012 05:55 PM Subject: Re: Brain drain: Where Cobol systems go from here Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu On 5/23/2012 3:39 PM, Roberts, John J wrote: When the last Cobol programmers walk out the door, so may 50 years of business processes within the software they created. Will you be ready? http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9227263/The_Cobol_Brain_Drain? taxonomyId=154 Ed, Interesting article and fairly accurate IMO. This is what I can foresee happening: (1) Many companies will try to offshore their COBOL application support. But this won't work so well because it is hard enough to understand these systems without facing the complications of language and arcane terminology. And the young ones back in Bangalore will want to do Java, not COBOL. (2) Other companies will want to recruit overseas, either for CS grads that they can train, or for those few that are willing to invest in COBOL learning if that is what it takes to punch that H1B ticket. But even so, once here they are all going to be looking to do something else, not COBOL. So that company that recruits and trains a COBOL resource is going to be looking for a replacement within a couple years. (3) Efforts to train new young COBOL resources are going to flop, as the article mentions. Again, everyone expects COBOL to be a career dead-end once beyond a 5 to 10 year transition period. Not everyone. (4) In the end, US companies are going to be forced to pay a premium just to hang on to their old-timers long enough to buy time to implement that new ERP package or new custom application. The ones that will be successful doing this are going to be the ones that accommodate their senior developer's desires: lots of time off, telecommuting, job sharing, benefits, etc. John Ahem. We can help. Our problem is reaching the right people. We have a low visibility to training directors and above for most companies, even after more than three decades of providing top quality training to many mainframe organizations. Just too tech-y and not enough sales-y, I guess. So, everybody: help us and your company out: find out who is responsibile for your z/OS applications programmer training and pass this on... There seems to be a resurgence in attention being paid to the mainframe, to z/OS, and to COBOL. For good reason: * z/OS is still the premier operating system in terms of performance, security, and business services * COBOL has been modernized to work with new technologies: + Works with data encoded in ASCII and Unicode + WOrks with data stored in XML + Works with the web - COBOL CGIs can handle transactions from the web, accessing data from VSAM or DB2, then formatting output web pages (HTML) that include the requested information - can even serve up audio, video, and other multimedia files * COBOL is a clear, understandable language that is easy to code, debug, and maintain * COBOL code performs well, with no need for the overhead of Java, for example The Trainer's Friend has a complete z/OS COBOL curriculum, that can: * teach new COBOL developers how to code, test, debug, and maintain programs written in COBOL * teach experienced COBOL programmers new features
