At Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:30:29 -0400,
Paul Davis wrote:
i don't think that, even if we had had fons on board at that time, that
the idea of using a DLL rather than interrupts to truly drive the whole
system would have occured to anyone in 1996-2000.
Probably not, but I remember we
I agree with Rui,
arts piped into jack is probably the best solution currently.
And when doing paranoid low latency audio work just kill artsd as Rui said.
I'm not a big user of consumer audio apps (eg mailer that emits
BOING.WAV) but
I guess due to certain apps being KDE centric and some GNOME
Hi,
I guess we are in need of some guys who help making JACK
ready for the desktop.
If you're on KDE 3.3+, try these Setup/Options on qjackctl:
[X] Execute script on Startup:
`artsshell -q terminate`
[X] Execute script after Startup:
`artsd -F 4 -S 1024 -a jack -m artsmessage -c
What's the current coding standard for consumer audio
apps that should work in both
KDE and GNOME enviroments ? Use ALSA directly, support both
artsd/esd etc ?
that's the problem. Currently there's no standard, but
creating one would simplify life a lot for developers of any
kind of audio
On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 11:02 +0200, Benno Senoner wrote:
How does windows handle such stuff ? You simply write MME/WDM audio
apps
and
windows applies transparent software mixing to each API ?
No, on Windows pro apps use ASIO and consumer apps use MME/DirectX.
Lee
On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 18:09 +0200, Christoph Eckert wrote:
ALSA
direct access is no choice because it blocks the device. DMIX
is a choice, but what if I want to use JACK simultaneously
without using DMIX?
This question amounts to how do I block the device without blocking the
device. You
This question amounts to how do I block the device without
blocking the device. You can't do this with any OS.
Sorry, this was caused by my bad english skills. I'll try
anew.
Waht I really meant was:
* We all agree that we don't want JACK to use on top of DMIX,
we want JACK to run directly
windows applies transparent software mixing to each API ?
No, on Windows pro apps use ASIO and consumer apps use MME/DirectX.
Lee
Not entirely true, Sonar achieves very nice solid latencies with WDM and MME
drivers (both of which are used for consumer purposes as well).
Best wishes,
Ico
On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 12:33:20AM +0100, Damon Chaplin wrote:
Out of interest, what APIs do you think GNOME and KDE should provide for
sound?
None. Why should a window manager / desktop provide its own API for
such things ?
--
FA
Le 17 juin 05 01:51, Jay Vaughan a crit :
Maybe the timers used aren't precise enough for this.. I don't know.
Anyone?
coreaudio does dynamic re-sampling of its 'common feed-pool' ring-
buffer for audio i/o, so maybe this delay compensation is factored
in that calculation?
I think
On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 09:57 +0200, Alfons Adriaensen wrote:
On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 12:33:20AM +0100, Damon Chaplin wrote:
Out of interest, what APIs do you think GNOME and KDE should provide for
sound?
None. Why should a window manager / desktop provide its own API for
such things ?
On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 12:48:11PM +0100, Damon Chaplin wrote:
On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 09:57 +0200, Alfons Adriaensen wrote:
On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 12:33:20AM +0100, Damon Chaplin wrote:
Out of interest, what APIs do you think GNOME and KDE should provide for
sound?
None. Why
Hi,
1. You don't need GNOME or KDE support to develop audio
applications any more than you need their support for
accessing files, the network, the display or whatever. So
they should remain neutral on this matter.
I absolutely agree. But why did they start to use
arts/esound/gstreamer?
Hi Christoph,
On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 18:09 +0200, Christoph Eckert wrote:
1. You don't need GNOME or KDE support to develop audio
applications any more than you need their support for
accessing files, the network, the display or whatever. So
they should remain neutral on this matter.
I
Hallo,
Alfons Adriaensen hat gesagt: // Alfons Adriaensen wrote:
On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 12:48:11PM +0100, Damon Chaplin wrote:
GNOME KDE are complete development platforms, so they need to support
the development of audio applications.
1. You don't need GNOME or KDE support to develop
On Friday 17 Jun 2005 14:24, Alfons Adriaensen wrote:
A few days ago I kicked up Rosegarden again to see if it could be
useful for the project I was starting. It wasn't so I terminated it,
only to find out later that there were still a number of KDE
applications running, including a sound
On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 06:09:52PM +0200, Christoph Eckert wrote:
Which audio subsystem should they support? ALSA
direct access is no choice because it blocks the device. DMIX
is a choice, but what if I want to use JACK simultaneously
without using DMIX?
Is that realistic ? Would you do
On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 06:58:18PM +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
... like Ardour, which requires Jack instead of working with Arts or
Esound.
JACK is not part of any desktop system. It's absolutely neutral in
this sense, _and_ designed to support 'professional' audio. For a
tool like Ardour,
Hallo,
fons adriaensen hat gesagt: // fons adriaensen wrote:
On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 06:58:18PM +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
... like Ardour, which requires Jack instead of working with Arts or
Esound.
JACK is not part of any desktop system. It's absolutely neutral in
this sense,
Damon Chaplin wrote:
GNOME KDE are complete development platforms, so they need to support
the development of audio applications.
I'm not saying they should develop new libraries. Just that they need to
standardize on particular APIs/libraries that all work together OK.
(I think both
Which audio subsystem should they support? ALSA
direct access is no choice because it blocks the device.
DMIX is a choice, but what if I want to use JACK
simultaneously without using DMIX?
Is that realistic ? Would you do any serious audio work and
leave all the desktop toys enabled
I guess we are in need of some guys who help making JACK ready
for the desktop.
If you're on KDE 3.3+, try these Setup/Options on qjackctl:
[X] Execute script on Startup:
`artsshell -q terminate`
[X] Execute script after Startup:
`artsd -F 4 -S 1024 -a jack -m artsmessage -c
On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 08:22:17AM -0400, Paul Davis wrote:
i don't think thats entirely fair. when jaroslav started ALSA i think he
was intent on a set of ideas that looked like the best choices at the
time. the goal was to improve lots of issues with OSS, including its
requirement for all
i don't think that, even if we had had fons on board at that time, that
the idea of using a DLL rather than interrupts to truly drive the whole
system would have occured to anyone in 1996-2000.
Probably not, but I remember we (at Alcatel) used them in soft DSP
systems at that time. But
true, but i take it you get the way CoreAudio is doing it: it means you
can drive audio processing from a different interrupt source (e.g.
system timer) because you have very accurate idea of the position of the
h/w frame pointer. In CoreAudio, the callback is decoupled from any
PCI, USB or
On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 10:30:29AM -0400, Paul Davis wrote:
true, but i take it you get the way CoreAudio is doing it: it means you
can drive audio processing from a different interrupt source (e.g.
system timer) because you have very accurate idea of the position of the
h/w frame pointer. In
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:30:29 -0400
Paul Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
true, but i take it you get the way CoreAudio is doing it: it means you
can drive audio processing from a different interrupt source (e.g.
system timer) because you have very accurate idea of the position of the
h/w frame
On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 05:59:09PM +0200, Florian Schmidt wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:30:29 -0400
Paul Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
true, but i take it you get the way CoreAudio is doing it: it means you
can drive audio processing from a different interrupt source (e.g.
system timer)
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:20:41 +0200
fons adriaensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The price for this is afaik an extra period worth of latency. I'm not
sure this is the way to go. Sure it makes handling of devices easier
that do not generate irq's like pci soundcards do (all this USB and
On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 10:57:51PM +0200, Florian Schmidt wrote:
Ah, i remembered slightly incorrectly. Thanks Paul, for setting me
straight in #ardour. The thing is that the DLL based client thread
wakeup has the ever so slight possibility to do its thing too early.
Thus coreaudio waits a
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:54:01 +0200
fons adriaensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Strange... If you would program a timer using the info available from
jackd's DLL, it would never generate its interrupt before the HW is
ready (i.e. has at least a period available). It would actually trigger
just
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 11:50 -0400, Paul Davis wrote:
but more broadly, windows is not the gold standard here, OS X is, and
the truth is that apple have designed a much better system from day one.
on OS X, things do work more or less the way jwz and many other people
think they should. JACK
Maybe the timers used aren't precise enough for this.. I don't know.
Anyone?
coreaudio does dynamic re-sampling of its 'common feed-pool'
ring-buffer for audio i/o, so maybe this delay compensation is
factored in that calculation?
multiple clients with independent sample-rates/bit-formats
It would be great to standardize on one set of APIs that provided
support for both general purpose and professional quality audio apps
(and all working together happily).
Apples' API docs for CoreAudio can be found here:
http://developer.apple.com/audio/pdf/coreaudio.pdf
great reading,
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 20:52 -0400, Lee Revell wrote:
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 21:16 +0200, Jay Vaughan wrote:
b) an [mplayer/skype] patch-fest to bring them in line with that
strategy using actual source changes (where possible)
Skype is closed source and the mplayer developers are a pain
On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 11:50:11AM +0200, Lars Luthman wrote:
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 20:52 -0400, Lee Revell wrote:
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 21:16 +0200, Jay Vaughan wrote:
b) an [mplayer/skype] patch-fest to bring them in line with that
strategy using actual source changes (where possible)
Ranting on his blog just makes him look like an ass.
Lee
but .. thats what blogs are for.
--
;
Jay Vaughan
On Wed, 2005-15-06 at 10:36 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 11:50:11AM +0200, Lars Luthman wrote:
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 20:52 -0400, Lee Revell wrote:
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 21:16 +0200, Jay Vaughan wrote:
b) an [mplayer/skype] patch-fest to bring them in line with
Well, if Alsa went the CoreAudio direction and did a proper
callback-based audio API ala Jack, and did s/w mixing automagically, we
wouldn't need all this mess.
Unfortunately, the Alsa people didn't seem to think replacing OSS was a
good opportunity to improve anything, so here we are...
never worked right here, end up using the arts backend (and
jack backend for arts...and alsa backend for jack...). how
many chained APIs does one need?
mplayer -ao jack blabla.mp3:
AO: [Jack] Initialising library.
MPlayer interrupted by signal 11 in module: ao2_init
- MPlayer crashed by
I must admit, I had to double-check that I really am reading the
year-2005 folder of linux-audio-dev, and not some old mails from the
archives. ;) Now that SuSE, Mandrake, Fedora and others have started
to use dmix as the default output plugin, basic desktop sound stuff
should finally start to
On Tue, 2005-14-06 at 10:50 +0200, Jay Vaughan wrote:
I must admit, I had to double-check that I really am reading the
year-2005 folder of linux-audio-dev, and not some old mails from the
archives. ;) Now that SuSE, Mandrake, Fedora and others have started
to use dmix as the default output
I think we should take it for what it is: a whiney rant from someone
who is famous for whining about anything and everything.
sorry, but i don't agree.
Why should we care what jwz thinks?
jwz, like it or not, leads opinion. he makes news. agree with him
or disagree with him: you're
Hi,
I have a PlanetCCRMA FC2 system on a Dell Inspiron8200 (P4 1.6G 512 ram)
that works absolutely fantastic, both with the onboard AC97 card and
with the pcmcia Echo Mona Interface. Latency in jack 5.4 ms very
reliably (xruns ocasionally when doing something you know will cause an
xrun, like
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 11:27 +0200, Jay Vaughan wrote:
jwz, like it or not, leads opinion. he makes news. agree with him
or disagree with him: you're still being led into an opinion on a
subject as a result of his effort, either way.
Who in the hell is this jwz, and why does everyone care
Am Dienstag, den 14.06.2005, 10:36 -0400 schrieb Lee Revell:
Who in the hell is this jwz, and why does everyone care what he thinks
so much? Can someone at least post a link to this rant of his?
This one?
jwz - fuck the skull of alsa
http://jwz.livejournal.com/490051.html
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Jan Weil wrote:
Am Dienstag, den 14.06.2005, 10:36 -0400 schrieb Lee Revell:
Who in the hell is this jwz, and why does everyone care what he thinks
so much? Can someone at least post a link to this rant of his?
This one?
jwz - fuck the skull of alsa
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 17:12 +0200, Jan Weil wrote:
Am Dienstag, den 14.06.2005, 10:36 -0400 schrieb Lee Revell:
Who in the hell is this jwz, and why does everyone care what he thinks
so much? Can someone at least post a link to this rant of his?
This one?
jwz - fuck the skull of alsa
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 17:12 +0200, Jan Weil wrote:
Am Dienstag, den 14.06.2005, 10:36 -0400 schrieb Lee Revell:
Who in the hell is this jwz, and why does everyone care what he thinks
so much? Can someone at least post a link to this rant of his?
This one?
jwz - fuck the skull of alsa
Hi,
Why not solve this kinds of problems.
Soulutions:
1) Remove OSS drivers from kernel - then all problems will be alsa
problems.
2) Remove OSS emulation from alsa - then all problems will be OSS
problems.
Otherways this will be newer end.
Peter Zubaj
Also, he seems to be pissed because he bought one of the new SBLives
that uses the snd-ca0106 driver, and expects to get hardware mixing like
a real SBLive. He's just an idiot, and his beef is with Creative, not
the ALSA people.
jwz isn't an idiot, and he doesn't expect h/w mixing. he knows
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 11:50 -0400, Paul Davis wrote:
Also, he seems to be pissed because he bought one of the new SBLives
that uses the snd-ca0106 driver, and expects to get hardware mixing like
a real SBLive. He's just an idiot, and his beef is with Creative, not
the ALSA people.
jwz
it would be great to counter the jwz diatribe with a mass
of 'well, sound works just fine for me' posts from those
who do have, and use daily, a working audio sub-system
under linux..
We aren't there - not yet.
[...]
i'm sure there are LAD'ers whose systems are superlative
examples of
This all tells me that the distro maintainers put a
shockingly low priority on having sound work OOTB,
otherwise, why didn't they do this a year ago? AFAICT it's
just laziness.
Laziness and commercial pressure.
The commercial distros spend their time in patching kernels,
creating distro
That's it? Why do people listen to this guy again, he seems to be just
another idiot luser who blames ALSA for every XMMS bug.
ever heard of netscape? jwz is one of the glory-children of that
project, a very active F/OSS advocate over the years.
this story is important because it is about
he [jwz] also doesn't understand how few people produced ALSA.
i dunno, i don't want to speak for jwz, but i'm pretty sure he's
aware just how a few people can get a very great thing done. you may
say he's seasoned at it, in fact, and knows the pitfalls 'the mob' go
through in order to
a) a well-formed strategy to clean up the Linux mess, and
b) an [mplayer/skype] patch-fest to bring them in line with
that strategy using actual source changes (where possible),
and c) far greater advocacy of the success of linux audio
by its users and boot-CD makers ..
... would do the
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 21:16 +0200, Jay Vaughan wrote:
b) an [mplayer/skype] patch-fest to bring them in line with that
strategy using actual source changes (where possible)
Skype is closed source and the mplayer developers are a pain in the ass
to deal with due to blatant pro-OSS (as in
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 21:09 +0200, Jay Vaughan wrote:
That's it? Why do people listen to this guy again, he seems to be just
another idiot luser who blames ALSA for every XMMS bug.
ever heard of netscape? jwz is one of the glory-children of that
project, a very active F/OSS advocate over
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