Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
You want me to give you a run sheet of our entire game plan so you can run it off to your buddies at Adobe, think again bazza :) think again! :) Sorry, nice try but no cigar. no, Scott, it's not that. I actually don't cut much code anymore these days: analysis, design, recommendations, etc. I'm trying to get a deeper understanding on SL's place in the world now/soon and I'm not going to recommend spending resources on cutting edge (if not bleeding edge) if it's not yet worth it to solve real business problems. I don't work in a design agency, I don't work with general-public-facing web. I mean, because I know Flex, I can see more than one option so I'm looking at ROI, product differentiation, what works for where and why, alternatives**, etc. E.g: SL's use of C#, while important for teams, can be negated in other ways: what Peter DeHaan at Adobe is up, etc. As for getting SL infront of eyeballs, I've already given you one suggestion - but I do admit cross-department logistics make it a long shot, which is a shame. so I *am* pumping you for information, Scott, but not for the reasons you think. But you did do a good job shedding a bit more light a couple of emails back, and for that many thanks. barry.b out. ** I've come across more than one example where a DHTML/Ajax-y app would work better than what's been served up with Flex. Perhaps both Flex and SL share a competitor there? --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Hi, First on the AJAX/JavaScript comment: I completely agree. This is something I mentioned in the Future of the web discussion panel at Tech Ed in Sydney. I think that in the end JavaScript might be a stronger competitor to Silverlight than Flash. JavaScript is getting significant faster in Chrome, FireFox and Safari (and Microsoft is playing catch-up in IE8). New frameworks like jQuery (now embraced by Microsoft) is making it easier to build rich JavaScript based applications, and the tooling support is also getting more solid. By using plain AJAX/JavaScript you don't have to depend on any add-in or vendor lock-in. In the future Canvas and Video, when ever implemented in all browsers, might make AJAX/JavaScript an even more compelling alternative to Flash and Silverlight. That being said I am big Silverlight 2 fan, and definitely think the technology is ready for main-stream development work. I think Silverlight 2 will be an easier alternative for businesses wanting to build Rich Internet Applications. The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). I also think that the requirements and expectations within (internal) line of business applications will go up as the users get used to great online user experiences on the public web. These users will expect something more inside the company, and I think that in the future having great internal software might be a differentiator for companies wanting to recruit information workers. As to the Flex vs Silverlight 2 decision I don't know enough about Flex to really comment on it. However, I think that most of us have seen great examples of Flash-based RIAs, so the technology is more than capable of delivering great applications. One of my current favorites is http://www.sliderocket.com/. So if you and your team knows Flex, and the company sees that as a important technology in the future, by all means use it! That makes perfect business sense. What I'm saying is that Silverlight 2 feels a need for the .NET/Microsoft development crowd who is comfortable in VS2008 and C#, and now need to meet higher expectations to deliver great user experiences online. - Jonas On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: You want me to give you a run sheet of our entire game plan so you can run it off to your buddies at Adobe, think again bazza :) think again! :) Sorry, nice try but no cigar. no, Scott, it's not that. I actually don't cut much code anymore these days: analysis, design, recommendations, etc. I'm trying to get a deeper understanding on SL's place in the world now/soon and I'm not going to recommend spending resources on cutting edge (if not bleeding edge) if it's not yet worth it to solve real business problems. I don't work in a design agency, I don't work with general-public-facing web. I mean, because I know Flex, I can see more than one option so I'm looking at ROI, product differentiation, what works for where and why, alternatives**, etc. E.g: SL's use of C#, while important for teams, can be negated in other ways: what Peter DeHaan at Adobe is up, etc. As for getting SL infront of eyeballs, I've already given you one suggestion - but I do admit cross-department logistics make it a long shot, which is a shame. so I *am* pumping you for information, Scott, but not for the reasons you think. But you did do a good job shedding a bit more light a couple of emails back, and for that many thanks. barry.b out. ** I've come across more than one example where a DHTML/Ajax-y app would work better than what's been served up with Flex. Perhaps both Flex and SL share a competitor there? --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). +1 - but don't forget designers here... there aren't really any good tools to bridge the gap from design to JS. This is why I think that even though JS is getting faster and faster with engines like TraceMonkey and V8 I just can't see it passing the usability/creatability (sic) test that designers require... i.e. they will continue to be scared of it. SL and Flash are far more friendly environments for our designing comrades. Add in a compiler, testability and familiarity for developers and the environment is nicer all round. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonas Follesø Sent: Monday, 20 October 2008 9:27 AM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi, First on the AJAX/JavaScript comment: I completely agree. This is something I mentioned in the Future of the web discussion panel at Tech Ed in Sydney. I think that in the end JavaScript might be a stronger competitor to Silverlight than Flash. JavaScript is getting significant faster in Chrome, FireFox and Safari (and Microsoft is playing catch-up in IE8). New frameworks like jQuery (now embraced by Microsoft) is making it easier to build rich JavaScript based applications, and the tooling support is also getting more solid. By using plain AJAX/JavaScript you don't have to depend on any add-in or vendor lock-in. In the future Canvas and Video, when ever implemented in all browsers, might make AJAX/JavaScript an even more compelling alternative to Flash and Silverlight. That being said I am big Silverlight 2 fan, and definitely think the technology is ready for main-stream development work. I think Silverlight 2 will be an easier alternative for businesses wanting to build Rich Internet Applications. The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). I also think that the requirements and expectations within (internal) line of business applications will go up as the users get used to great online user experiences on the public web. These users will expect something more inside the company, and I think that in the future having great internal software might be a differentiator for companies wanting to recruit information workers. As to the Flex vs Silverlight 2 decision I don't know enough about Flex to really comment on it. However, I think that most of us have seen great examples of Flash-based RIAs, so the technology is more than capable of delivering great applications. One of my current favorites is http://www.sliderocket.com/. So if you and your team knows Flex, and the company sees that as a important technology in the future, by all means use it! That makes perfect business sense. What I'm saying is that Silverlight 2 feels a need for the .NET/Microsoft development crowd who is comfortable in VS2008 and C#, and now need to meet higher expectations to deliver great user experiences online. - Jonas On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You want me to give you a run sheet of our entire game plan so you can run it off to your buddies at Adobe, think again bazza :) think again! :) Sorry, nice try but no cigar. no, Scott, it's not that. I actually don't cut much code anymore these days: analysis, design, recommendations, etc. I'm trying to get a deeper understanding on SL's place in the world now/soon and I'm not going to recommend spending resources on cutting edge (if not bleeding edge) if it's not yet worth it to solve real business problems. I don't work in a design agency, I don't work with general-public-facing web. I mean, because I know Flex, I can see more than one option so I'm looking at ROI, product differentiation, what works for where and why, alternatives**, etc. E.g: SL's use of C#, while important for teams, can be negated in other ways: what Peter DeHaan at Adobe is up, etc. As for getting SL infront of eyeballs, I've already given you one suggestion - but I do admit cross-department logistics make it a long shot, which is a shame. so I *am* pumping you for information, Scott, but not for the reasons you think. But you did do a good job shedding a bit more light a couple of emails back, and for that many thanks. barry.b out. ** I've come across more than one example where a DHTML/Ajax-y app would work better than what's been served up with Flex. Perhaps both Flex and SL share a competitor there? --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by
Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Current leaders: Troll / fisherman of the year : Muhammed Niaz Flamer / Flamee of the year : cough cough On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Jonas Follesø [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, First on the AJAX/JavaScript comment: I completely agree. This is something I mentioned in the Future of the web discussion panel at Tech Ed in Sydney. I think that in the end JavaScript might be a stronger competitor to Silverlight than Flash. JavaScript is getting significant faster in Chrome, FireFox and Safari (and Microsoft is playing catch-up in IE8). New frameworks like jQuery (now embraced by Microsoft) is making it easier to build rich JavaScript based applications, and the tooling support is also getting more solid. By using plain AJAX/JavaScript you don't have to depend on any add-in or vendor lock-in. In the future Canvas and Video, when ever implemented in all browsers, might make AJAX/JavaScript an even more compelling alternative to Flash and Silverlight. That being said I am big Silverlight 2 fan, and definitely think the technology is ready for main-stream development work. I think Silverlight 2 will be an easier alternative for businesses wanting to build Rich Internet Applications. The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). I also think that the requirements and expectations within (internal) line of business applications will go up as the users get used to great online user experiences on the public web. These users will expect something more inside the company, and I think that in the future having great internal software might be a differentiator for companies wanting to recruit information workers. As to the Flex vs Silverlight 2 decision I don't know enough about Flex to really comment on it. However, I think that most of us have seen great examples of Flash-based RIAs, so the technology is more than capable of delivering great applications. One of my current favorites is http://www.sliderocket.com/. So if you and your team knows Flex, and the company sees that as a important technology in the future, by all means use it! That makes perfect business sense. What I'm saying is that Silverlight 2 feels a need for the .NET/Microsoft development crowd who is comfortable in VS2008 and C#, and now need to meet higher expectations to deliver great user experiences online. - Jonas On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You want me to give you a run sheet of our entire game plan so you can run it off to your buddies at Adobe, think again bazza :) think again! :) Sorry, nice try but no cigar. no, Scott, it's not that. I actually don't cut much code anymore these days: analysis, design, recommendations, etc. I'm trying to get a deeper understanding on SL's place in the world now/soon and I'm not going to recommend spending resources on cutting edge (if not bleeding edge) if it's not yet worth it to solve real business problems. I don't work in a design agency, I don't work with general-public-facing web. I mean, because I know Flex, I can see more than one option so I'm looking at ROI, product differentiation, what works for where and why, alternatives**, etc. E.g: SL's use of C#, while important for teams, can be negated in other ways: what Peter DeHaan at Adobe is up, etc. As for getting SL infront of eyeballs, I've already given you one suggestion - but I do admit cross-department logistics make it a long shot, which is a shame. so I *am* pumping you for information, Scott, but not for the reasons you think. But you did do a good job shedding a bit more light a couple of emails back, and for that many thanks. barry.b out. ** I've come across more than one example where a DHTML/Ajax-y app would work better than what's been served up with Flex. Perhaps both Flex and SL share a competitor there? --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
True, but there is heaps of web designers out there who knows CSS and HTML. So the designer friendliness might tip both ways when comparing traditional web applications and Silverlight (at least at the moment). You can also buy tons of HTML templates and designs online you can include in your application, something currently not as available for WPF/Silverlight. For the interactive part you're right, there isn't any good JavaScript tools at the moment to help designers. However, there are jQuery books and tutorials focusing on the interactive styling and animation aspects of jQuery (rather than the AJAX data stuff). CSS selectors is a key concepts in jQuery, and something widely used and understood by web designers, making jQuery a really approachable JavaScript library even for designers. But yes - as designers starts to pick up on Blend, and we as developers understand how to architect our applications to make them designer-friendly, we can see some great developer-designer workflows. On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Jordan Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). +1 - but don't forget designers here... there aren't really any good tools to bridge the gap from design to JS. This is why I think that even though JS is getting faster and faster with engines like TraceMonkey and V8 I just can't see it passing the usability/creatability (sic) test that designers require... i.e. they will continue to be scared of it. SL and Flash are far more friendly environments for our designing comrades. Add in a compiler, testability and familiarity for developers and the environment is nicer all round. *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Jonas Follesø *Sent:* Monday, 20 October 2008 9:27 AM *To:* listserver@ozsilverlight.com *Subject:* Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi, First on the AJAX/JavaScript comment: I completely agree. This is something I mentioned in the Future of the web discussion panel at Tech Ed in Sydney. I think that in the end JavaScript might be a stronger competitor to Silverlight than Flash. JavaScript is getting significant faster in Chrome, FireFox and Safari (and Microsoft is playing catch-up in IE8). New frameworks like jQuery (now embraced by Microsoft) is making it easier to build rich JavaScript based applications, and the tooling support is also getting more solid. By using plain AJAX/JavaScript you don't have to depend on any add-in or vendor lock-in. In the future Canvas and Video, when ever implemented in all browsers, might make AJAX/JavaScript an even more compelling alternative to Flash and Silverlight. That being said I am big Silverlight 2 fan, and definitely think the technology is ready for main-stream development work. I think Silverlight 2 will be an easier alternative for businesses wanting to build Rich Internet Applications. The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). I also think that the requirements and expectations within (internal) line of business applications will go up as the users get used to great online user experiences on the public web. These users will expect something more inside the company, and I think that in the future having great internal software might be a differentiator for companies wanting to recruit information workers. As to the Flex vs Silverlight 2 decision I don't know enough about Flex to really comment on it. However, I think that most of us have seen great examples of Flash-based RIAs, so the technology is more than capable of delivering great applications. One of my current favorites is http://www.sliderocket.com/. So if you and your team knows Flex, and the company sees that as a important technology in the future, by all means use it! That makes perfect business sense. What I'm saying is that Silverlight 2 feels a need for the .NET/Microsoft development crowd who is comfortable in VS2008 and C#, and now need to meet higher expectations to deliver great user experiences online. - Jonas On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You want me to give you a run sheet of our entire game plan so you can run it off to your buddies at Adobe, think again bazza :) think again! :) Sorry, nice try but no cigar. no, Scott, it's not that. I actually don't cut much code anymore these days: analysis, design, recommendations, etc. I'm trying to get a deeper understanding on SL's place in the world now/soon and I'm not going to recommend spending resources on cutting edge (if not bleeding edge) if it's not yet worth it to solve real business problems. I
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Agree... There is plenty of content/reference and *some* good tools out there... and there are defininately tons of templates etc... But... Those templates are for pretty sites.. not AJAX enabled apps :) I.e. not an RIA - basically you don't get RIA from JS unless you are a developer of some kind (or perhaps you could end up with a crappy RIA hehe) - either way Silverlight (and Flash/Flex) bridges this gap quite nicely. The creation process in SL is nicely workflowed through the expression suite. JS/AJAX lacks that glue (keep in mind I am an AJAX developer from way back). And a desiger that knows some jQuery and CSS... you could argue they are more a devigner. You can see the interest building from the design camp from the sessions at ReMix and TechEd... didn't see that many designers when they launched ASP.NET AJAX :) Cheers, Jordan. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonas Follesø [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 20 October 2008 12:43 PM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? True, but there is heaps of web designers out there who knows CSS and HTML. So the designer friendliness might tip both ways when comparing traditional web applications and Silverlight (at least at the moment). You can also buy tons of HTML templates and designs online you can include in your application, something currently not as available for WPF/Silverlight. For the interactive part you're right, there isn't any good JavaScript tools at the moment to help designers. However, there are jQuery books and tutorials focusing on the interactive styling and animation aspects of jQuery (rather than the AJAX data stuff). CSS selectors is a key concepts in jQuery, and something widely used and understood by web designers, making jQuery a really approachable JavaScript library even for designers. But yes - as designers starts to pick up on Blend, and we as developers understand how to architect our applications to make them designer-friendly, we can see some great developer-designer workflows. On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Jordan Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). +1 - but don't forget designers here... there aren't really any good tools to bridge the gap from design to JS. This is why I think that even though JS is getting faster and faster with engines like TraceMonkey and V8 I just can't see it passing the usability/creatability (sic) test that designers require... i.e. they will continue to be scared of it. SL and Flash are far more friendly environments for our designing comrades. Add in a compiler, testability and familiarity for developers and the environment is nicer all round. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jonas Follesø Sent: Monday, 20 October 2008 9:27 AM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.commailto:listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi, First on the AJAX/JavaScript comment: I completely agree. This is something I mentioned in the Future of the web discussion panel at Tech Ed in Sydney. I think that in the end JavaScript might be a stronger competitor to Silverlight than Flash. JavaScript is getting significant faster in Chrome, FireFox and Safari (and Microsoft is playing catch-up in IE8). New frameworks like jQuery (now embraced by Microsoft) is making it easier to build rich JavaScript based applications, and the tooling support is also getting more solid. By using plain AJAX/JavaScript you don't have to depend on any add-in or vendor lock-in. In the future Canvas and Video, when ever implemented in all browsers, might make AJAX/JavaScript an even more compelling alternative to Flash and Silverlight. That being said I am big Silverlight 2 fan, and definitely think the technology is ready for main-stream development work. I think Silverlight 2 will be an easier alternative for businesses wanting to build Rich Internet Applications. The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). I also think that the requirements and expectations within (internal) line of business applications will go up as the users get used to great online user experiences on the public web. These users will expect something more inside the company, and I think that in the future having great internal software might be a differentiator for companies wanting to recruit information workers. As to the Flex vs Silverlight 2 decision I don't know enough about Flex to really comment on it. However, I think that most
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
hI Jempson, What you mean.? Take care Niaz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ross jempson Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 6:39 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Current leaders: Troll / fisherman of the year : Muhammed Niaz Flamer / Flamee of the year : cough cough On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Jonas Follesø [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, First on the AJAX/JavaScript comment: I completely agree. This is something I mentioned in the Future of the web discussion panel at Tech Ed in Sydney. I think that in the end JavaScript might be a stronger competitor to Silverlight than Flash. JavaScript is getting significant faster in Chrome, FireFox and Safari (and Microsoft is playing catch-up in IE8). New frameworks like jQuery (now embraced by Microsoft) is making it easier to build rich JavaScript based applications, and the tooling support is also getting more solid. By using plain AJAX/JavaScript you don't have to depend on any add-in or vendor lock-in. In the future Canvas and Video, when ever implemented in all browsers, might make AJAX/JavaScript an even more compelling alternative to Flash and Silverlight. That being said I am big Silverlight 2 fan, and definitely think the technology is ready for main-stream development work. I think Silverlight 2 will be an easier alternative for businesses wanting to build Rich Internet Applications. The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). I also think that the requirements and expectations within (internal) line of business applications will go up as the users get used to great online user experiences on the public web. These users will expect something more inside the company, and I think that in the future having great internal software might be a differentiator for companies wanting to recruit information workers. As to the Flex vs Silverlight 2 decision I don't know enough about Flex to really comment on it. However, I think that most of us have seen great examples of Flash-based RIAs, so the technology is more than capable of delivering great applications. One of my current favorites is http://www.sliderocket.com/. So if you and your team knows Flex, and the company sees that as a important technology in the future, by all means use it! That makes perfect business sense. What I'm saying is that Silverlight 2 feels a need for the .NET/Microsoft development crowd who is comfortable in VS2008 and C#, and now need to meet higher expectations to deliver great user experiences online. - Jonas On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You want me to give you a run sheet of our entire game plan so you can run it off to your buddies at Adobe, think again bazza :) think again! :) Sorry, nice try but no cigar. no, Scott, it's not that. I actually don't cut much code anymore these days: analysis, design, recommendations, etc. I'm trying to get a deeper understanding on SL's place in the world now/soon and I'm not going to recommend spending resources on cutting edge (if not bleeding edge) if it's not yet worth it to solve real business problems. I don't work in a design agency, I don't work with general-public-facing web. I mean, because I know Flex, I can see more than one option so I'm looking at ROI, product differentiation, what works for where and why, alternatives**, etc. E.g: SL's use of C#, while important for teams, can be negated in other ways: what Peter DeHaan at Adobe is up, etc. As for getting SL infront of eyeballs, I've already given you one suggestion - but I do admit cross-department logistics make it a long shot, which is a shame. so I *am* pumping you for information, Scott, but not for the reasons you think. But you did do a good job shedding a bit more light a couple of emails back, and for that many thanks. barry.b out. ** I've come across more than one example where a DHTML/Ajax-y app would work better than what's been served up with Flex. Perhaps both Flex and SL share a competitor there? --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as
