date:20180411

[LUTE] Re: Selua amorosa

2018-04-11 Thread Edward C. Yong

   AHA. hence Monteverdi's 'Selva Morale e Spirituale'. i'd always thought
   'moral and spiritual forest', and it never occured to me that 'selva'
   could also mean 'collection'.
   thanks!
   Edward

   On 11 April 2018 at 23:14, Rainer <[1]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
   wrote:

 I do not speak Italian, however
 silva = Forest (Latin)
 I should have noticed :)
 Rainer
 On 11.04.2018 17:07, stephen arndt wrote:

 Ich nehme an, dass es "Selva amarosa" heiÃen soll. (Der Buchstaben
 Ã¢u" fÃÂ¼r Ã¢v" war ganz ÃÂ¼blich auf Latein und FrÃÂ¼hitalienisch.) In
 dem Fall wÃÂ¤re die Ãbersetzung Ã¢Wald der Liebe".
 -Original Message- From: Rainer
 Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 9:42 AM
 To: Lute net
 Subject: [LUTE] Selua amorosa
 Dear lute netters,
 in Nobilita di Dame there is (page 361) a piece called "Selua
 Amorosa" (a concordance for Allemande Fortune helas...)
 Does anybody know what the title means?
 Rainer
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

2018-04-11 Thread stephen arndt

I just consulted Lewis and Short, and even in classical Latin "silva" had 
the tropological sense of "a crowded mass, abundance, or quantity." Plautus 
speaks of a " silva rerum, sententiarumque" and Cicero of a "silva virtutum 
et vitiorum." Strangely, however, the "Gloassarium mediae et infimae 
latinitatis" does not list any but the literal sense of "silva" or, rather, 
"sylva." --For what it's worth.


-Original Message- 
From: d.p.medve...@gmail.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:40 PM
To: 'Lute List'
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

I understand that the title is poetic. I only suggested that "forest" is 
actually a metaphor for "collection".

Another example (which combines both meanings):
"Silva de varia lección" by Pero Mexía was translated into English in the 
16th century as "The foreste or Collection of histories..."


Dmitry

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf Of 
Roman Turovsky

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 6:38 PM
To: d.p.medve...@gmail.com; 'Lute List' 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

Definitely not.
Stephen Fryer is correct -
A Forest of Sirens, a poetic title.
RT


On 4/11/2018 5:10 PM, d.p.medve...@gmail.com wrote:

I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva"
means simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of 
music).

It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a
"collection" of trees), but I would not translate it literally.
There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:
"Silva de varios romances"
"Silva de poesía"
etc.
So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the 
sirens".


Dmitry


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf
Of Jurgen Frenz
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM
To: Lute List 
Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

Hello there,

another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
_nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

artic google.png

Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
today? Would anybody know?

Thanks for helping, best wishes

Jurgen

--
"There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

JalÃ„l ad-DÃ„Â«n Muhammad Rumi


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

2018-04-11 Thread Eloy Cruz

Dear List

The DRAE (Diccionario de la Real Academia EspaÃ±ola) has, as first meaning:
Silva
1. f. ColecciÃ³n de materias o temas diversos, escritos sin mÃ©todo ni orden.

A collection of diverse  matters or subjects,  written without a method or 
order.

Silva as âselvaâ (jungle, forest) is meaning no. 5, and itâs marked 
âdesusâ (not used any more).

Regards


eloy





> On Apr 11, 2018, at 5:01 PM, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> Also, there's Monteverdi's "Selva Morale e Spirituale" :)
> 
> 
> 
> Am 12.04.2018 um 00:37 schrieb Roman Turovsky:
>> Definitely not.
>> Stephen Fryer is correct -
>> A Forest of Sirens, a poetic title.
>> RT
>> On 4/11/2018 5:10 PM, d.p.medve...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" means
>>> simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).
>>> It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a "collection" of
>>> trees), but I would not translate it literally.
>>> There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:
>>> "Silva de varios romances"
>>> "Silva de poesÃa"
>>> etc.
>>> So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the sirens".
>>> 
>>> Dmitry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf Of
>>> Jurgen Frenz
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM
>>> To: Lute List 
>>> Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"
>>> 
>>> Hello there,
>>> 
>>> another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
>>> Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
>>> source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
>>> _nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.
>>> 
>>> artic google.png
>>> 
>>> Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
>>> differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
>>> today? Would anybody know?
>>> 
>>> Thanks for helping, best wishes
>>> 
>>> Jurgen
>>> 
>>> --
>>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
>>> 
>>> JalÃâl ad-DÃâÃÂ«n Muhammad Rumi
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 


--

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

2018-04-11 Thread Tristan von Neumann


Also, there's Monteverdi's "Selva Morale e Spirituale" :)



Am 12.04.2018 um 00:37 schrieb Roman Turovsky:

Definitely not.
Stephen Fryer is correct -
A Forest of Sirens, a poetic title.
RT


On 4/11/2018 5:10 PM, d.p.medve...@gmail.com wrote:

I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" means
simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).
It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a 
"collection" of

trees), but I would not translate it literally.
There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:
"Silva de varios romances"
"Silva de poesía"
etc.
So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the 
sirens".


Dmitry


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf Of
Jurgen Frenz
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM
To: Lute List 
Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

    Hello there,

    another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
    Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was 
the
    source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe 
and

    _nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

    artic google.png

    Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
    differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
    today? Would anybody know?

    Thanks for helping, best wishes

    Jurgen

    --
    "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

    JalÃ„l ad-DÃ„Â«n Muhammad Rumi


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

2018-04-11 Thread d.p.medvedev

I understand that the title is poetic. I only suggested that "forest" is 
actually a metaphor for "collection".
Another example (which combines both meanings): 
"Silva de varia lección" by Pero Mexía was translated into English in the 16th 
century as "The foreste or Collection of histories..."
 
Dmitry

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf Of Roman 
Turovsky
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 6:38 PM
To: d.p.medve...@gmail.com; 'Lute List' 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

Definitely not.
Stephen Fryer is correct -
A Forest of Sirens, a poetic title.
RT


On 4/11/2018 5:10 PM, d.p.medve...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" 
> means simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).
> It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a 
> "collection" of trees), but I would not translate it literally.
> There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:
> "Silva de varios romances"
> "Silva de poesía"
> etc.
> So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the sirens".
>
> Dmitry
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf 
> Of Jurgen Frenz
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM
> To: Lute List 
> Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"
>
> Hello there,
>
> another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
> Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
> source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
> _nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.
>
> artic google.png
>
> Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
> differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
> today? Would anybody know?
>
> Thanks for helping, best wishes
>
> Jurgen
>
> --
> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
>
> JalÃ„l ad-DÃ„Â«n Muhammad Rumi
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

2018-04-11 Thread Rainer



Pretty much _every_ 500 year old language used words differenty :-)
Even 150 year is more than enough to change the meaning of words.
As for Valderrabano: I'd translate that as 'forrest of the sirens' i.e. those
mythological creatures that lured sailors into dangerous cliffs by means
of their beautiful singing.


Many years ago a translation of instruction from a German lute book were 
published by the LSA.

The translator -  who certainly spoke German very well - didn't know that in those days 
"anhebt" meant "starts" and misinterpreted it as a finger movement.

I am used to read old German texts back to 1500 but I guess texts from the 14th 
century are almost incomprehensible for Germans :)

Virdung's orthography is already horrible :)

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

2018-04-11 Thread Roman Turovsky


Definitely not.
Stephen Fryer is correct -
A Forest of Sirens, a poetic title.
RT


On 4/11/2018 5:10 PM, d.p.medve...@gmail.com wrote:

I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" means
simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).
It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a "collection" of
trees), but I would not translate it literally.
There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:
"Silva de varios romances"
"Silva de poesía"
etc.
So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the sirens".

Dmitry


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf Of
Jurgen Frenz
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM
To: Lute List 
Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

Hello there,

another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
_nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

artic google.png

Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
today? Would anybody know?

Thanks for helping, best wishes

Jurgen

--
"There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

JalÃ„l ad-DÃ„Â«n Muhammad Rumi


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

2018-04-11 Thread d.p.medvedev

I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" means
simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).
It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a "collection" of
trees), but I would not translate it literally.
There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:
"Silva de varios romances"
"Silva de poesía"
etc.
So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the sirens".

Dmitry


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf Of
Jurgen Frenz
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM
To: Lute List 
Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

   Hello there,

   another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
   Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
   source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
   _nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

   artic google.png

   Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
   differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
   today? Would anybody know?

   Thanks for helping, best wishes

   Jurgen

   --
   "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

   JalÃl ad-DÃÂ«n Muhammad Rumi


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

2018-04-11 Thread Stephen Fryer


"Wood (forest) of the Sirens"



On 2018-04-11 1:36 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

Hello there,

another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
_nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

artic google.png

Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
today? Would anybody know?

Thanks for helping, best wishes

Jurgen

--
"There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

JalÃ„l ad-DÃ„Â«n Muhammad Rumi


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

2018-04-11 Thread Ralf Mattes

 
Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2018 22:36 CEST, Jurgen Frenz 
 schrieb: 
 
>Hello there,
> 
>another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
>Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
>source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
>_nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.
> 
>artic google.png
> 
>Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
>differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
>today? Would anybody know?

Pretty much _every_ 500 year old language used words differenty :-)
Even 150 year is more than enough to change the meaning of words.
As for Valderrabano: I'd translate that as 'forrest of the sirens' i.e. those
mythological creatures that lured sailors into dangerous cliffs by means
of their beautiful singing.

 HTH RalfD



 
 
 





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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

2018-04-11 Thread Jurgen Frenz

   Hello there,

   another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
   Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
   source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
   _nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

   artic google.png

   Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
   differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
   today? Would anybody know?

   Thanks for helping, best wishes

   Jurgen

   --
   "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

   JalÃl ad-DÃÂ«n Muhammad Rumi


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Selua amorosa

2018-04-11 Thread Rainer


I do not speak Italian, however

silva = Forest (Latin)

I should have noticed :)

Rainer

On 11.04.2018 17:07, stephen arndt wrote:

Ich nehme an, dass es “Selva amarosa” heißen soll. (Der Buchstaben „u“ für „v“ 
war ganz üblich auf Latein und Frühitalienisch.) In dem Fall wäre die 
Übersetzung „Wald der Liebe“.

-Original Message- From: Rainer
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 9:42 AM
To: Lute net
Subject: [LUTE] Selua amorosa

Dear lute netters,

in Nobilita di Dame there is (page 361) a piece called "Selua Amorosa" (a 
concordance for Allemande Fortune helas...)

Does anybody know what the title means?

Rainer



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Selua amorosa

2018-04-11 Thread bh

= selva amorosa
Forest of love?

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11 April 2018 um 16:42:07 Uhr
Von: Rainer 
An: "Lute net" 
Betreff: [LUTE] Selua amorosa
Dear lute netters,

in Nobilita di Dame there is (page 361) a piece called "Selua Amorosa" (a 
concordance for Allemande Fortune helas...)

Does anybody know what the title means?

Rainer



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Selua amorosa

2018-04-11 Thread Rainer


Dear lute netters,

in Nobilita di Dame there is (page 361) a piece called "Selua Amorosa" (a 
concordance for Allemande Fortune helas...)

Does anybody know what the title means?

Rainer



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Selua amorosa

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[LUTE] Re: Selua amorosa

[LUTE] Re: Selua amorosa

[LUTE] Selua amorosa

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