Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-30 Thread John MacFarlane
+++ Thomas Maibaum [Oct 30 12 19:27 ]:
> Thank you, I think this makes a lot of sense. I came across Pandoc
> when I first learned about Markdown and I like its extended version
> of Markdown very much, in particular the fact that it supports
> footnotes and tables (the same goes for Markdown Extra).
> 
> Unfortunately, none of the tools I use locally (MarkdownHere for
> Mozilla Thunderbird, MarkdownPad) support any extended versions of
> Markdown, and I was unable to install Pandoc.
> 
> I use the MarkdownExtra Dingus or the Try Pandoc page every once in
> a while, but generally having to use a browser is too much of an
> interruption to my usual "offline" workflow.
> 
> Is there a "how to install Pandoc for dummies"-type site somewhere?

If you're using Windows or OS X, just grab an installer from here:
http://code.google.com/p/pandoc/downloads/list

If you're using *nix, use your distro's package installer; pandoc
is in most distros' repositories.

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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-30 Thread Thomas Maibaum
Thank you, I think this makes a lot of sense. I came across Pandoc when 
I first learned about Markdown and I like its extended version of 
Markdown very much, in particular the fact that it supports footnotes 
and tables (the same goes for Markdown Extra).


Unfortunately, none of the tools I use locally (MarkdownHere for Mozilla 
Thunderbird, MarkdownPad) support any extended versions of Markdown, and 
I was unable to install Pandoc.


I use the MarkdownExtra Dingus or the Try Pandoc page every once in a 
while, but generally having to use a browser is too much of an 
interruption to my usual "offline" workflow.


Is there a "how to install Pandoc for dummies"-type site somewhere?

Thomas



John MacFarlane, 2012-10-25 03:22:

See question 6 here:
http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/faq.html#what-are-some-big-questions-that-the-markdown-spec-does-not-answer

And note that pandoc allows you to create two blockquotes if
you leave blank space between,

http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A

If you want one blockquote with two paragraphs, do it like this:

http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%3E%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A

Unfortunately the other implementations don't make this distinction.



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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-30 Thread Thomas Maibaum

Waylan Limberg, 2012-10-25 05:23:

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 9:22 PM, John MacFarlane  wrote:

See question 6 here:
http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/faq.html#what-are-some-big-questions-that-the-markdown-spec-does-not-answer

And note that pandoc allows you to create two blockquotes if
you leave blank space between,


Which is clearly in violation of the syntax rules [1].


Fair enough, but I for one feel this means there is something not quite 
right with the "canonical"  syntax rules here: They *should* have 
included a method for letting separate blockquotes follow each other 
without them ending up merged into what looks like one long blockquote, 
and without having to fall back on HTML.


Besides, as I said, I'm grateful for you guys to point out two methods 
(non-breaking space vs. comment) and their respective output. The narrow 
break generated by the "comment" method is what I had in mind when I 
asked about this.


However, I still think that it's pretty counterintuitive: Shouldn't a 
comment in HTML be just that, i.e., stricly a *comment* without any 
effect whatsoever on what the rendered page looks like?


Again, on a pragmatic level the "comment" method solves my problem just 
fine, but it does strike me as a bit "quick and dirty".


Thomas
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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread John MacFarlane
I guess you're right.  I'll leave it in for now, so as not to
confuse people trying to follow this discussion, but add a note
that points to your post.

+++ Waylan Limberg [Oct 24 12 23:23 ]:
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 9:22 PM, John MacFarlane  wrote:
> > See question 6 here:
> > http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/faq.html#what-are-some-big-questions-that-the-markdown-spec-does-not-answer
> >
> > And note that pandoc allows you to create two blockquotes if
> > you leave blank space between,
> >
> 
> Which is clearly in violation of the syntax rules [1]. According to
> the rules, these two examples are to produce the exact same output:
> 
> ~~~
> > This is a blockquote with two paragraphs. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet,
> > consectetuer adipiscing elit. Aliquam hendrerit mi posuere lectus.
> > Vestibulum enim wisi, viverra nec, fringilla in, laoreet vitae, risus.
> >
> > Donec sit amet nisl. Aliquam semper ipsum sit amet velit. Suspendisse
> > id sem consectetuer libero luctus adipiscing.
> ~~~
> 
> and
> 
> ~~~
> > This is a blockquote with two paragraphs. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet,
> consectetuer adipiscing elit. Aliquam hendrerit mi posuere lectus.
> Vestibulum enim wisi, viverra nec, fringilla in, laoreet vitae, risus.
> 
> > Donec sit amet nisl. Aliquam semper ipsum sit amet velit. Suspendisse
> id sem consectetuer libero luctus adipiscing.
> ~~~
> 
> Note that the first sentence of each example states that that entire
> example "... is **a** blockquote with two paragraphs" (emphasis
> added). That states explicitly that it must be interpreted as one
> blockquote. There is no other interpretation. Pandoc is simply wrong
> here (even in strict mode - using the above examples from the rules)
> and I would suggest that John M. should remove that question from his
> FAQ. Or at least move it to the "divergences between implementations"
> section. There is no "big question" on this issue.
> 
> As an aside, after seeing John list this as a "big question" I reread
> the rules and initially thought it might be a valid question. Other
> than implying (but not explicitly stating) that the two examples
> should produce the exact same output, I didn't see any indication in
> the main text explicitly stating that the second example should
> produce one blockquote. Only after rereading a second time did I
> notice that this part of the rule is explicitly stated in the example
> itself - and only in the example. My point is, it is easy to miss, but
> that doesn't mean its not part of the rule - or that it can be
> interpreted in multiple ways.
> 
> [1]: http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax#blockquote
> 
> -- 
> 
> \X/ /-\ `/ |_ /-\ |\|
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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread Waylan Limberg
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 11:33 PM, David Chambers
 wrote:
> http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A
>
> I love pandoc's approach here. It's logical, and makes it just as trivial to
> mark up consecutive single-paragraph quotes as it is to mark up a
> two-paragraph quote.
>
> This is exactly the sort of thing that could be profitably discussed were we
> not bound by the somewhat inconsistent behaviour of the original Perl
> script. Do others agree that pandoc's treatment of such cases is preferable
> to the “specified” behaviour? What I'm asking is what others would advocate
> if we were discussing a hypothetical format with no backwards-compatibility
> concerns. (Let's not have every discussion derailed by the
> backwards-compatibility discussion.) :)

I already stated my opinion in a separate message on what is proper
behavior in markdown, but your not asking about that here. Sure, if I
was involved in designing some new
inspired-by-markdown-but-not-markdown language,  then yes Pandoc's
behavior would get my vote in this instance.

The thing is, I'm not really interested in designing by committee, and
I don't follow this list to consider inspired-by-markdown languages. I
follow this list because I maintain a _markdown_ implementation and
sometimes support questions for my implementation get asked here - or
sometimes inconsistencies in implementation can be worked out - or
something like babelmark2 comes along which I want to know about, use,
and provide access to my implementation for... (you get the idea).
Most anything else is just an annoying distraction to me. Sure, if
people want to announce some new markdown related project here -
great, I'm glad to see markdown grow. But I'm not interested in
filtering through message after message about some hypothetical
inspired-by-markdown language that know one is putting any real work
into (and if there is real work - great - but that discussion belongs
elsewhere). But hey, I'm just one person. What do I know? Maybe my
overly busy schedule lately is making me ornery.

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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread David Chambers
> http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A
 
(http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A)
I love pandoc's approach here. It's logical, and makes it just as trivial to 
mark up consecutive single-paragraph quotes as it is to mark up a two-paragraph 
quote.

This is exactly the sort of thing that could be profitably discussed were we 
not bound by the somewhat inconsistent behaviour of the original Perl script. 
Do others agree that pandoc's treatment of such cases is preferable to the 
“specified” behaviour? What I'm asking is what others would advocate if we were 
discussing a hypothetical format with no backwards-compatibility concerns. 
(Let's not have every discussion derailed by the backwards-compatibility 
discussion.) :)

David  


On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 at 6:22 PM, John MacFarlane wrote:

> See question 6 here:
> http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/faq.html#what-are-some-big-questions-that-the-markdown-spec-does-not-answer
>  
> And note that pandoc allows you to create two blockquotes if
> you leave blank space between,
>  
> http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A
>  
> If you want one blockquote with two paragraphs, do it like this:
>  
> http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%3E%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A
>  
> Unfortunately the other implementations don't make this distinction.
>  
> +++ Thomas Maibaum [Oct 24 12 22:09 ]:
> > Hello everyone,
> >  
> > First off, I'm new to this list, so if this has been dealt with before,
> > I apologize. I was unable to find a solution in Google.
> >  
> > My question is, how do I insert a blank line between blockquote
> > paragraphs so that they are visually separate? I often need to put two
> > or three separate blockquotes in a row, without any regular text
> > between them, but Markdown always renders the HTML output like one long
> > quote. Like this:
> > > Quote #1
> >  
> > [line break followed by empty line or spaces]
> > > Quote #2
> >  
> > [line break followed by empty line or spaces]
> > > Quote #3
> >  
> >  
> > It always ends up looking the same as this:
> > > Quote #1 [regular linebreak]
> > > Quote #2 [regular linebreak]
> > > Quote #3 [regular linebreak]
> > >  
> >  
> >  
> > So far, I've always put an acute accent ( ´ ) between the quotes,
> > because it was the least obtrusive character I could think of:
> > > Quote #1 [regular linebreak]
> >  
> > ´
> > > Quote #2 [regular linebreak]
> >  
> > ´
> > > Quote #3 [regular linebreak]
> >  
> >  
> > But of course this is still an ugly workaraound. Is there another way
> > to go about this?
> >  
> > Looking forward to any hints,
> >  
> > Thomas
>  
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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread Waylan Limberg
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 9:22 PM, John MacFarlane  wrote:
> See question 6 here:
> http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/faq.html#what-are-some-big-questions-that-the-markdown-spec-does-not-answer
>
> And note that pandoc allows you to create two blockquotes if
> you leave blank space between,
>

Which is clearly in violation of the syntax rules [1]. According to
the rules, these two examples are to produce the exact same output:

~~~
> This is a blockquote with two paragraphs. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet,
> consectetuer adipiscing elit. Aliquam hendrerit mi posuere lectus.
> Vestibulum enim wisi, viverra nec, fringilla in, laoreet vitae, risus.
>
> Donec sit amet nisl. Aliquam semper ipsum sit amet velit. Suspendisse
> id sem consectetuer libero luctus adipiscing.
~~~

and

~~~
> This is a blockquote with two paragraphs. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet,
consectetuer adipiscing elit. Aliquam hendrerit mi posuere lectus.
Vestibulum enim wisi, viverra nec, fringilla in, laoreet vitae, risus.

> Donec sit amet nisl. Aliquam semper ipsum sit amet velit. Suspendisse
id sem consectetuer libero luctus adipiscing.
~~~

Note that the first sentence of each example states that that entire
example "... is **a** blockquote with two paragraphs" (emphasis
added). That states explicitly that it must be interpreted as one
blockquote. There is no other interpretation. Pandoc is simply wrong
here (even in strict mode - using the above examples from the rules)
and I would suggest that John M. should remove that question from his
FAQ. Or at least move it to the "divergences between implementations"
section. There is no "big question" on this issue.

As an aside, after seeing John list this as a "big question" I reread
the rules and initially thought it might be a valid question. Other
than implying (but not explicitly stating) that the two examples
should produce the exact same output, I didn't see any indication in
the main text explicitly stating that the second example should
produce one blockquote. Only after rereading a second time did I
notice that this part of the rule is explicitly stated in the example
itself - and only in the example. My point is, it is easy to miss, but
that doesn't mean its not part of the rule - or that it can be
interpreted in multiple ways.

[1]: http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax#blockquote

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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread John MacFarlane
See question 6 here:
http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/faq.html#what-are-some-big-questions-that-the-markdown-spec-does-not-answer

And note that pandoc allows you to create two blockquotes if
you leave blank space between,

http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A

If you want one blockquote with two paragraphs, do it like this:

http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%3E%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A

Unfortunately the other implementations don't make this distinction.

+++ Thomas Maibaum [Oct 24 12 22:09 ]:
>Hello everyone,
> 
>First off, I'm new to this list, so if this has been dealt with before,
>I apologize. I was unable to find a solution in Google.
> 
>My question is, how do I insert a blank line between blockquote
>paragraphs so that they are visually separate? I often need to put two
>or three separate blockquotes in a row, without any regular text
>between them, but Markdown always renders the HTML output like one long
>quote. Like this:
> > Quote #1
> [line break followed by empty line or spaces]
> > Quote #2
> [line break followed by empty line or spaces]
> > Quote #3
> 
>It always ends up looking the same as this:
> > Quote #1 [regular linebreak]
> > Quote #2  [regular linebreak]
> > Quote #3  [regular linebreak]
> 
>So far, I've always put an acute accent ( ´ ) between the quotes,
>because it was the least obtrusive character I could think of:
> > Quote #1 [regular linebreak]
> ´
> > Quote #2  [regular linebreak]
> ´
> > Quote #3  [regular linebreak]
> 
>But of course this is still an ugly workaraound. Is there another way
>to go about this?
> 
>Looking forward to any hints,
> 
>Thomas

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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread Thomas Maibaum

Scott Granneman, 2012-10-25 00:14:
Well, sure it is. A comment is nothing. A non-breaking space is 
something: a space. That’s why I suggested it.


It wasn't that obvious to me, I have to admit. It seems that a comment 
is a bit more than nothing, though: After all, it *does* create a break 
between the paragraphs where previously there was none.


But as I said, it's good to know that the non-breaking space creates a 
*bigger* space than the comment, so thanks for pointing it out. :)


Thomas
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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread Scott Granneman
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Thomas Maibaum  wrote:
> Apart from that, I just compared the two methods and I noticed that this...
>
> > quote text
>
>  
>
> > quote text
>
> ... for some reason creates a *larger* break between the quote parts than
> this:
>
> > quote text
>
> 
>
> > quote text

Well, sure it is. A comment is nothing. A non-breaking space is
something: a space. That’s why I suggested it.

Scott
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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread Thomas Maibaum

Scott Granneman, 2012-10-24 23:37:
Well, if we’re going with ugly, what’s wrong with the good ol’ 
fashioned non-breaking space?


I for one feel that an empty HTML comment looks slightly less "ugly" 
than the text "  " in the Markdown text. But as I said, it's a 
matter of taste. :)


Apart from that, I just compared the two methods and I noticed that this...

> quote text

 

> quote text

... for some reason creates a *larger* break between the quote parts 
than this:


> quote text



> quote text

At least using Thunderbird with MarkdownHere, I haven't tried other ways 
yet.


The "comment method" is more what I expected, but it's good to know that 
a non-breaking space creates a slightly different output, should I ever 
need it.


Thorsten



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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread Scott Granneman
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Thomas Maibaum  wrote:
> I think I like Waylan's suggestion best (an empty HTML comment), as it looks
> least ugly in the raw Markdown text, for my taste at least.

Well, if we’re going with ugly, what’s wrong with the good ol’
fashioned non-breaking space?

Scott
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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread Thomas Maibaum

> Thanks all of you (Alan, Waylan, Hogan)!

Oops. That should have been Alan, Waylan, *David*, obviously.

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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread Thomas Maibaum

Thanks all of you (Alan, Waylan, Hogan)!

I would have preferred a method that looks good in raw Markdown, too, 
but I understand from your replies that this simply isn't possible. (I 
wonder why this feature isn't included in Markdown; is "separate 
blockquotes with no text in between" really that exotic?)
I think I like Waylan's suggestion best (an empty HTML comment), as it 
looks least ugly in the raw Markdown text, for my taste at least.


Again, thank you all for your help.

Thomas



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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread David Chambers
Another (ugly) option: 


quote 1



quote 2




quote 3



This is no good, though, if the quotes contain markup of their own, as you'll 
be forced to write that in HTML too.

David 


On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 at 1:27 PM, Waylan Limberg wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Waylan Limberg  (mailto:way...@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Thomas Maibaum  > (mailto:thomasmaib...@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > > Hello everyone,
> > > 
> > > First off, I'm new to this list, so if this has been dealt with before, I
> > > apologize. I was unable to find a solution in Google.
> > > 
> > > My question is, how do I insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs
> > > so that they are visually separate? I often need to put two or three
> > > separate blockquotes in a row, without any regular text between them, but
> > > Markdown always renders the HTML output like one long quote. Like this:
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > Well, if you don't want the output to be visible, and as Markdown
> > accepts raw html, why not an html comment. Like this:
> > 
> > http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%0A%3C!--+blank+line+--%3E%0A%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A%3C!--+blank+line+--%3E%0A%0A%3E+baz
> 
> You can even eliminate some of the blank lines like this:
> 
> http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%0A%3C!--+blank+line+--%3E%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A%3C!--+blank+line+--%3E%0A%3E+baz
> 
> Although that breaks pandoc in strange ways. However, all other
> implementations handle that fine and you save a few blank lines in
> your document. The rest are necessary though.
> 
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> 


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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread Waylan Limberg
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Waylan Limberg  wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Thomas Maibaum  
> wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> First off, I'm new to this list, so if this has been dealt with before, I
>> apologize. I was unable to find a solution in Google.
>>
>> My question is, how do I insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs
>> so that they are visually separate? I often need to put two or three
>> separate blockquotes in a row, without any regular text between them, but
>> Markdown always renders the HTML output like one long quote. Like this:
>
> Well, if you don't want the output to be visible, and as Markdown
> accepts raw html, why not an html comment. Like this:
>
> http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%0A%3C!--+blank+line+--%3E%0A%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A%3C!--+blank+line+--%3E%0A%0A%3E+baz
>

You can even eliminate some of the blank lines like this:

http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%0A%3C!--+blank+line+--%3E%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A%3C!--+blank+line+--%3E%0A%3E+baz

Although that breaks pandoc in strange ways. However, all other
implementations handle that fine and you save a few blank lines in
your document. The rest are necessary though.

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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread Alan Hogan
Folks, my apologies. Those links seem to break after running through the 
listserv.

Below, I use my URL shortener to give you un-breakable links.

My original suggestion to Thomas: http://ajh.us/bmd1

The actual link to the funny lunamark behavior: http://ajh.us/bmd2

Alan

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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread Waylan Limberg
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Thomas Maibaum  wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> First off, I'm new to this list, so if this has been dealt with before, I
> apologize. I was unable to find a solution in Google.
>
> My question is, how do I insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs
> so that they are visually separate? I often need to put two or three
> separate blockquotes in a row, without any regular text between them, but
> Markdown always renders the HTML output like one long quote. Like this:

Well, if you don't want the output to be visible, and as Markdown
accepts raw html, why not an html comment. Like this:

http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%0A%3C!--+blank+line+--%3E%0A%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A%3C!--+blank+line+--%3E%0A%0A%3E+baz

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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread Alan Hogan
In the same vein, here’s some Markdown input that does something really 
interesting in Lunamark.

http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%3Cbr%3E%0A%3E+bar%0A%3Cbr%3E%0A%3E+baz

/ajh

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Re: How to insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs?

2012-10-24 Thread Alan Hogan
If you don’t mind empty  tags between your blockquotes, you can use the 
non-breaking space character. (On OS X, that’s option+space.)

Normalized output on Babelmark2: 
http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?normalize=1&text=%3E+foo%0A%0A%C2%A0%0A%0A%0A%3E+bar%0A%0A%C2%A0%0A%0A%0A%3E+baz

(wow, how useful is that…! Thanks, John MacFarlane!)

On Oct 24, 2012, at 1:09 PM, Thomas Maibaum  wrote:

> Hello everyone,
> 
> First off, I'm new to this list, so if this has been dealt with before, I 
> apologize. I was unable to find a solution in Google.
> My question is, how do I insert a blank line between blockquote paragraphs so 
> that they are visually separate? I often need to put two or three separate 
> blockquotes in a row, without any regular text between them, but Markdown 
> always renders the HTML output like one long quote. Like this:
> 
> > Quote #1
> [line break followed by empty line or spaces]
> > Quote #2
> [line break followed by empty line or spaces] 
> > Quote #3
> 
> It always ends up looking the same as this:
> 
> > Quote #1 [regular linebreak]
> > Quote #2  [regular linebreak]
> > Quote #3  [regular linebreak]
> 
> So far, I've always put an acute accent ( ´ ) between the quotes, because it 
> was the least obtrusive character I could think of:
> > Quote #1 [regular linebreak]
> ´
> > Quote #2  [regular linebreak]
> ´
> > Quote #3  [regular linebreak]
> 
> But of course this is still an ugly workaraound. Is there another way to go 
> about this?
> 
> Looking forward to any hints,
> 
> Thomas
> 
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Alan Hogan



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