Re: [Marxism] These Sex Scandals Are Pushing The Country Further To The Right | Washington Babylon

2017-12-09 Thread Thomas via Marxism 
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“Whoever Expects A ‘Pure’ Social Revolution Will Never Live To See It”

July 1916 by V. I. Lenin. [Excerpts]

Published in October 1916 in Sbornik Sotsial-Demokrata No. 1. Signed: N. Lenin. 
Published according to the Sbornik text.

*

To imagine that social revolution is conceivable without revolts by small 
nations in the colonies and in Europe, without revolutionary outbursts by a 
section of the petty bourgeoisie with all its prejudices, without a movement of 
the politically non-conscious proletarian and semi-proletarian masses against 
oppression by the landowners, the church, and the monarchy, against national 
oppression, etc.-- to imagine all this is to repudiate social revolution.

So one army lines up in one place and says, “We are   for socialism”, and 
another, somewhere else and says, “We are for imperialism”, and that will be 
the social revolution?

Whoever expects a “pure” social revolution will never live to see it.

Such a person pays lip-service to revolution without understanding what 
revolution is.

The Russian Revolution of 1905 was a bourgeois-democratic revolution.

It consisted of a series of battles in which all the discontented classes, 
groups and elements of the population participated.

Among these there were masses imbued with the crudest prejudices, with the 
vaguest and most fantastic aims of struggle; there were small groups which 
accepted Japanese money, there were speculators and adventurers, etc.

But objectively, the mass movement was breaking the back of tsarism and paving 
the way for democracy; for this reason the class-conscious workers led it.

The socialist revolution in Europe cannot be anything other than an outburst of 
mass struggle on the part of all and sundry oppressed and discontented elements.

Inevitably, sections of the petty bourgeoisie and of the backward workers will 
participate in it—without such participation, mass struggle is impossible, 
without it no revolution is possible—and just as inevitably will they bring 
into the movement their prejudices, their reactionary fantasies, their 
weaknesses and errors.




-Original Message-
>From: Ken Hiebert via Marxism 
>Sent: Dec 9, 2017 11:33 AM
>To: Thomas F Barton 
>Subject: Re: [Marxism] These Sex Scandals Are Pushing The Country Further To 
>The Right | Washington Babylon
>

>Mark Lause said:
>The women's marches at the time of the inauguration were--and wound up--in
>the hands of the Democrats, which is why it both spread quickly and
>imploded leaving very little in the streets.
>
>The sex scandals are a complex development.  The idea that the institutions
>and peoples who perpetrated this sort of thing for generations are now
>suddenly going to be the arbiters of justice and the promulgators of social
>change invites serious discussion.
>
>* * * * * 
>
>Ken Hiebert replies:
>What Mark Lause says about the massive response to Trump could be said about 
>any large movement.  I heard a similar comment about the anti-war movement 
>decades ago.  Many different political currents will take part, each promoting 
>their own agenda.
>And this includes capitalist parties.
>The question is, what do we do about it?  Stepping aside from such a movement 
>will not diminish the influence of capitalist currents, but it will certainly 
>diminish our voice.
>
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Re: [Marxism] These Sex Scandals Are Pushing The Country Further To The Right | Washington Babylon

2017-12-09 Thread Tristan Sloughter via Marxism 
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But the campaign has pushed WSWS and David North to fully embrace the
"men's rights" movement's rhetoric:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/12/09/pers-d09.html 

And here he is using Geraldo Rivera's complaint that we are
"criminalizing courtship":

"The all-inclusive and reckless use of the term “sexual harassment” has
the effect of obscuring the chasm between the amorphous catch-all called
the “unwanted advance” (request for a date, complimenting another person
for his or her looks, and, heaven forbid, indicating sexual interest)
with a physically violent assault."

A common "men's rights" tactic: "The “Me Too” movement seems not to have
noticed the fact that roughly 40,000 men died from opioid overdoses in
2016"

"The motto that animates the struggle for human progress is not “Me Too”
but “Workers of the World Unite.”'

So it has pushed some further to the right! (I kid, North has always
been this awful).

-- 
  Tristan Sloughter

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Re: [Marxism] These Sex Scandals Are Pushing The Country Further To The Right | Washington Babylon

2017-12-09 Thread Dennis Brasky via Marxism 
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These are not sex scandals - they are an abuse of power against the
powerless, taking the form of sexual harassment, propositioning, groping,
and rape. As was the case with a recently disgraced National Public Radio
personality (Hockenberry), they can involve non-sexual racial harassment,
bullying, and humiliation.
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Re: [Marxism] These Sex Scandals Are Pushing The Country Further To The Right | Washington Babylon

2017-12-09 Thread Ken Hiebert via Marxism 
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Mark Lause said:
The women's marches at the time of the inauguration were--and wound up--in
the hands of the Democrats, which is why it both spread quickly and
imploded leaving very little in the streets.

The sex scandals are a complex development.  The idea that the institutions
and peoples who perpetrated this sort of thing for generations are now
suddenly going to be the arbiters of justice and the promulgators of social
change invites serious discussion.

* * * * * 

Ken Hiebert replies:
What Mark Lause says about the massive response to Trump could be said about 
any large movement.  I heard a similar comment about the anti-war movement 
decades ago.  Many different political currents will take part, each promoting 
their own agenda.
And this includes capitalist parties.
The question is, what do we do about it?  Stepping aside from such a movement 
will not diminish the influence of capitalist currents, but it will certainly 
diminish our voice.

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Re: [Marxism] These Sex Scandals Are Pushing The Country Further To The Right | Washington Babylon

2017-12-09 Thread Fred Murphy via Marxism 
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Facebook post by Meredith Tax:

"A lot of commentary on Franken's resignation seems to pit short term
losses (we have lost a bulldog in the Senate) vs longterm moral and
credibility gains (Dems capturing the high ground from which we can
criticize the dogs in the GOP). The problem is, the high road can't be
constructed as a two lane highway.

The cesspool of the #Metoo revelations--and not only them-- shows the need
for a sweeping moral rejuvenation in US politics. What concerns me is that
the sexual part of this questioning has gotten separated from the other
moral questions we need to be mobilizing around, those pointed to by the
new Poor People's Campaign being led by Rev. Barber: King's “triple evils”
of racism, poverty and militarism, plus the threat to the planet. My
question: why isn't sexism also on this list?

It is essential for all of us who say #Metoo to make sure that the
perpetrators of the sexist power games that have defined so much of our own
lives be halted, interrogated, and called to account. But this fight needs
be integrated with the fights against racism, poverty, militarism and
planetary destruction. Unless we all start dealing with the whole shebang,
we are going to be repeating the same pattern that has deformed previous US
social movements, where feminists end up being in charge of sexual morality
and guys in charge of everything else. We already know where that leads."

On Dec 8, 2017 11:30 PM, "Mark Lause"  wrote:

> Excellent.  Exactly the kind of voices we aren't hearing on the idiot box.
>
> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:23 PM, Fred Murphy via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>> *
>>
>> Listen to the second half of the 12/7 podcast with Liza Featherstone and
>> Jane McAlevey -
>> http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Radio.html#S171207
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 6:02 PM, Mark Lause via Marxism <
>> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>> > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
>> > *
>> >
>> > What's complicated is precisely that it's being treated as something
>> very
>> > different than you and I would describe . . . as something that the
>> media
>> > and the great institutions are going to fix.  They won't.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Jeff  wrote:
>> >
>> > > On 2017-12-08 21:59, Mark Lause via Marxism wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> The sex scandals are a complex development.
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > Let's see. For years women were abused but felt isolated, powerless,
>> that
>> > > they wouldn't be believed (and often weren't), would face
>> retributions,
>> > > would lose civil suits in court, and had much more to lose than gain
>> by
>> > > going public. With Bill Cosby for instance finally being exposed and
>> > going
>> > > down, followed by other celebrities and politicians, women gained
>> > > confidence, spoke out, and gave more confidence to other victims to do
>> > the
>> > > same. The flood gates opened.
>> > >
>> > > What's so complex about that?
>> > >
>> > > - Jeff
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > _
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>> >
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Re: [Marxism] These Sex Scandals Are Pushing The Country Further To The Right | Washington Babylon

2017-12-08 Thread Mark Lause via Marxism 
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What's complicated is precisely that it's being treated as something very
different than you and I would describe . . . as something that the media
and the great institutions are going to fix.  They won't.



On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Jeff  wrote:

> On 2017-12-08 21:59, Mark Lause via Marxism wrote:
>
>
>> The sex scandals are a complex development.
>>
>
> Let's see. For years women were abused but felt isolated, powerless, that
> they wouldn't be believed (and often weren't), would face retributions,
> would lose civil suits in court, and had much more to lose than gain by
> going public. With Bill Cosby for instance finally being exposed and going
> down, followed by other celebrities and politicians, women gained
> confidence, spoke out, and gave more confidence to other victims to do the
> same. The flood gates opened.
>
> What's so complex about that?
>
> - Jeff
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] These Sex Scandals Are Pushing The Country Further To The Right | Washington Babylon

2017-12-08 Thread Jeff via Marxism 

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On 2017-12-08 21:59, Mark Lause via Marxism wrote:



The sex scandals are a complex development.


Let's see. For years women were abused but felt isolated, powerless, 
that they wouldn't be believed (and often weren't), would face 
retributions, would lose civil suits in court, and had much more to lose 
than gain by going public. With Bill Cosby for instance finally being 
exposed and going down, followed by other celebrities and politicians, 
women gained confidence, spoke out, and gave more confidence to other 
victims to do the same. The flood gates opened.


What's so complex about that?

- Jeff


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Re: [Marxism] These Sex Scandals Are Pushing The Country Further To The Right | Washington Babylon

2017-12-08 Thread Mark Lause via Marxism 
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The women's marches at the time of the inauguration were--and wound up--in
the hands of the Democrats, which is why it both spread quickly and
imploded leaving very little in the streets.

The sex scandals are a complex development.  The idea that the institutions
and peoples who perpetrated this sort of thing for generations are now
suddenly going to be the arbiters of justice and the promulgators of social
change invites serious discussion.



On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 2:46 PM, Anthony Boynton via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *
>
> Rubbish.
>
> The Women's marches the day after Trump's inauguration set the tone for a
> new rise of the left in the United States, and this is an important
> continuation of it.
>
> In terms of Democrat-Republican political rivalry, Andrew has also
> completely missed what is going on, probably because he himself is a
> progressive Democrat and lesser evilist.
>
> Nancy Pelosi, Kamala Harris, Chuck Schumer et al. have pressured Conyers
> and Franken to resign because they are planning to reprise the Hillary
> Clinton strategy of 2016 in 2018. The Republicans are the party of racists
> and rapists, and the Democrats are the anti-racists and anti-rapists -
> therefore the Democrats need to say nothing else about anything else.
>
> This strategy almost worked in 2016: Clinton won a popular majority of
> nearly 3 million votes.
>
> One reason Clinton did not do better was that she is the wife of Bill
> Clinton, a man who has the reputation of a liar and abuser, even if he was
> never convicted of anything. Hillary has the reputation of a woman who
> accepted all of that in the name of lesser-evilism and getting herself
> elected later.
>
> Nancy Pelosi learned a lesson in 2016, and so did Chuck. Hence, they can
> give up a couple of votes now in a gamble that it will help them out next
> year. Why not? They are in the minority anyway and will continue to be
> after Conyers and Franken are gone.
>
> One of the best things that could happen to the United States, and to the
> world,would be for BOTH imperialist parties of racists and rapists - those
> would be the Democrats and the Republicans - to blow up into pieces.
>
> Hopefully, the current me-too moment will help make this happen.
>
> Anthony
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[Marxism] These Sex Scandals Are Pushing The Country Further To The Right | Washington Babylon

2017-12-08 Thread Anthony Boynton via Marxism 
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Rubbish.

The Women's marches the day after Trump's inauguration set the tone for a
new rise of the left in the United States, and this is an important
continuation of it.

In terms of Democrat-Republican political rivalry, Andrew has also
completely missed what is going on, probably because he himself is a
progressive Democrat and lesser evilist.

Nancy Pelosi, Kamala Harris, Chuck Schumer et al. have pressured Conyers
and Franken to resign because they are planning to reprise the Hillary
Clinton strategy of 2016 in 2018. The Republicans are the party of racists
and rapists, and the Democrats are the anti-racists and anti-rapists -
therefore the Democrats need to say nothing else about anything else.

This strategy almost worked in 2016: Clinton won a popular majority of
nearly 3 million votes.

One reason Clinton did not do better was that she is the wife of Bill
Clinton, a man who has the reputation of a liar and abuser, even if he was
never convicted of anything. Hillary has the reputation of a woman who
accepted all of that in the name of lesser-evilism and getting herself
elected later.

Nancy Pelosi learned a lesson in 2016, and so did Chuck. Hence, they can
give up a couple of votes now in a gamble that it will help them out next
year. Why not? They are in the minority anyway and will continue to be
after Conyers and Franken are gone.

One of the best things that could happen to the United States, and to the
world,would be for BOTH imperialist parties of racists and rapists - those
would be the Democrats and the Republicans - to blow up into pieces.

Hopefully, the current me-too moment will help make this happen.

Anthony
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Re: [Marxism] These Sex Scandals Are Pushing The Country Further To The Right | Washington Babylon

2017-12-08 Thread Andrew Stewart via Marxism 
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How can you be so fundamentally wrong about the meaning of words that are so 
simple and uncomplicated? I'm astounded that you derive a set of moral 
judgements from observations that have nothing but factual points. 

Best regards,
Andrew Stewart 

I couldn't disagree more strenuously! Masses of women are emboldened - for the 
first time - to speak out against crude, lewd and offensive behavior. There is 
nothing about this that can aid the rightwing. If the first chips to fall are 
liberal Democrats (in Franken's case, not so liberal, him supporting 
Bush/Cheney's destruction of Iraq), so be it. This is another argument against 
the faux progressiveness of that rotten corporate party.

Implying that liberal Democrats going down to defeat or resignation is a 
victory for the right and therefore the Left should protect them is an echo of 
"lesser evilism. Attacking Republican sex offenders like Trump and Roy Moore 
while making excuses for liberal Democrats is the mark of the double standard, 
which discredits the Left.

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism 
wrote:
> 
> http://washingtonbabylon.com/these-sex-scandals-are-pushing-the-country-further-to-the-right/
> 
> 
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Re: [Marxism] These Sex Scandals Are Pushing The Country Further To The Right | Washington Babylon

2017-12-08 Thread Dennis Brasky via Marxism 
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I couldn't disagree more strenuously! Masses of women are emboldened - for
the first time - to speak out against crude, lewd and offensive behavior.
There is nothing about this that can aid the rightwing. If the first chips
to fall are liberal Democrats (in Franken's case, not so liberal, him
supporting Bush/Cheney's destruction of Iraq), so be it. This is another
argument against the faux progressiveness of that rotten corporate party.

Implying that liberal Democrats going down to defeat or resignation is a
victory for the right and therefore the Left should protect them is an echo
of "lesser evilism. Attacking Republican sex offenders like Trump and Roy
Moore while making excuses for liberal Democrats is the mark of the double
standard, which discredits the Left.

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>
> http://washingtonbabylon.com/these-sex-scandals-are-
> pushing-the-country-further-to-the-right/
>
>
>
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[Marxism] These Sex Scandals Are Pushing The Country Further To The Right | Washington Babylon

2017-12-08 Thread Andrew Stewart via Marxism 
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http://washingtonbabylon.com/these-sex-scandals-are-pushing-the-country-further-to-the-right/


Best regards,
Andrew Stewart 
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