Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite in New Hampshire
Hi, Gary, List I don't want to throw cold water on this possibility (plenty of that already), but every winter, there's one or more did a meteorite land in a pond/lake stories that pop up on the List. There was a long-lasting thread back in Jan., 2001, about a lake in Finland (where, incidentally, there are many meteorite in a lake/pond stories, none of which ever panned out with a rock). There are so many things that can make a hole in an icy pond. The ice is obviously quite thick now. How thick was it when the hole appeared? The fact that the hole is in the center (more or less) is always a suspicious piece of data. Lakes and ponds freeze from the shallow shore to the deep center, in that order. The center (or the deepest spot) is always the last place to freeze and the ice is always thinnest there. This creates a mental trap for the unwary pond crosser, whether they be human or critter. You test the ice near the edge, as you go out on it and again as you move away from shore. It is obviously strong enough to drive a car on; you lose caution and proceed on your merry way. Pond crossers always go over the center of the pond because it's the shortest distance and saving distance is the purpose of the exercise. Particularly when the temperature drop is recent and not long-term, you will find lakes and ponds with thick stampable ice over the shallow margins (and farm ponds tend to have broad shallows) while in the center sits a universal invitation to a sudden thermal excursion. The owner's assertion of no tracks has to be weighed against the time that may have elapsed, the wind drift factor, the chance of snow since the incident, and the likelihood of quick wet prancing (and very annoyed) feet leaving prints. No hunt for a space rock is ever wasted, though. Alan Hildebrand, of the MIAC - Prairie Meteorite Search project in Canada, with very reasonable assumptions, estimates that ~1.4 meteorites 100 g mass occur in each km2 (or about 4.5 meteorites 10 g mass). That's about one 100+ gm meteorite for every 175 acres, or one 10 gm every 56 acres. Read: http://miac.uqac.ca/MIAC/pmsearch.htm I'm sure that your particles contain meteoritic material; every open body of water in the world collects cosmic dust! In fact, Jerry Flaherty posted a story about kids collecting meteor dust on the night of major meteor showers using a big flat pan of water. You can also find cosmic stuff in the muck that lines the bottom of your gutters. Scrape out your gutters, put the gunk in a plastic bucket, dilute with water, drag a supermagnet through it, and Voila! Star Dust. There's a long list of natural occurances that can punch holes in new-iced ponds. But one of them is... Meteorite! My problem is that I can't find any rendition of a meteorite having been found that way. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Gary K. Foote [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 7:41 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite in New Hampshire Though the tale has not yet unfolded fully, here is where we stand to date, along with some photos... http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/nhmet.html More to come as we continue our search. Gary __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite in New Hampshire
Hi, Gary, List, Like a clod, I meant to say what a good page and description of the chase it was and forgot to. By the time I finished reading it, my feet were cold and I felt a sudden desire for hot cocoa. Your weather is colder than my weather. And my observations are probably more true of a winter that bounces back and forth over the freezing line. We haven't been subzero (F) for years. Maybe the dual ice layer is the result of two freezes, an earlier one that never melted fully and a later one that couldn't close the gap. The Earth gets about 400,000 tons of Interplanetary Dust Particles per year: The earth's surface is constantly being rained upon by interplanetary dust particles (IDP's), from a few to several hundred micrometers in diameter. The mass distribution of this dust flux peaks at around 200µm (Love and Brownlee, 1993). This dust is thought to be derived from collisions of asteroidal material and from comets (e.g. Kortenkamp and Dermott, 1998). The majority of IDPs are compositionally similar to chondritic meteorites (Jessberger et al, 2001), and quite distinct from crustal rocks on earth. The exact amount of nickel in cosmic dust bunnies is the basis of an argument. Earlier high estimates of how much dust was incoming were because the nickel content was thought to be higher than it turned out to be. But, regardless of the amount, you'll find nickel in cosmic dust. Just think of it as ground up meteorites, all kinds together. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Gary K. Foote [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite in New Hampshire Hi sterling, First, I realize the odds are against this being a meteoric created hole. That being said let me shed some light on some of your questions; On 22 Feb 2007 at 20:48, Sterling K. Webb wrote: The ice is obviously quite thick now. How thick was it when the hole appeared? It was totally frozen over the and 2 feet+ of snow fell the night that the hole appeared. I assume the ice was at least 6 to eight inches thich though we did b=neglect to measure the depth of ice in the non-modified ice. :( Live and learn. the hole is in the center (more or less) is always a suspicious piece of data. Lakes and ponds freeze from the shallow shore to the deep center, in that order. The center (or the deepest spot) is always the last place to freeze and the ice is always thinnest there. The pond is only 7 feet deep at the point of the hole and with our regular below zero weather the center would have been just as frozen as the edges. In fact, around here it is at the shores where the ice is thinnest as the warmth of the underlying land warms the ice and keeps it from freezing as fast as at the deeper points. Its always near the edge where people go in thru the ice early in winter - either there or where there is a current that keeps the water from sitting still enough long enough to freeze as rapidly the more steady water does. Particularly when the temperature drop is recent and not long-term, you will find lakes and ponds with thick stampable ice over the shallow margins (and farm ponds tend to have broad shallows) while in the center sits a universal invitation to a sudden thermal excursion. If there is a tendency to thermal excursion to the center of a shallow pond I'm not aware of it. Doesn't mean its not true - just that I've not heard of this phenomenon. I'd be interested in anyone's pointers to greater knowledge in this area. Further, this is not only a stream fed pond, but a spring fed pond. the landowner assurred us the spring was a good 50 feet from the hole. The owner's assertion of no tracks has to be weighed against the time that may have elapsed, the wind drift factor, the chance of snow since the incident, and the likelihood of quick wet prancing (and very annoyed) feet leaving prints. The snow, as stated before, fell on the night of the phenomenon's appearance. Maybe this is a factor in its appearance. I just don't know. I do know it is a fairly remote area and the landowner has a dog who is kept inside and she and her dog were the first ones on the scene in the morning.The landowner noted no tracks the very next morning. It was also clearly noted that there were no footprints anywhere on the pond the day we arrived seven days later. Footprints persist in snow until the next snowfall and there has been no significant snow since, so I feel there had been nobody near the area at all. No hunt for a space rock is ever wasted, though. Alan Hildebrand, of the MIAC - Prairie Meteorite Search project in Canada, with very reasonable assumptions, estimates that ~1.4 meteorites 100 g mass occur in each km2 (or about 4.5 meteorites 10 g mass
Re: [meteorite-list] Peruvian meteorite crater - friendly warningtohunters that may be considering...
Hi, Darren, List, Nope. It's a different meteorite (??) that looks exactly the same. The Barringers got Meteor Crater by way of Daniel Barringer's mining claim. He thought (many did) that the vast mass of the impactor was buried beneath the crater floor, millions of tons of stainless steel awaiting exploitation. He drilled up to a quarter mile into the floor of the crater trying to hit the main mass and found nothing but shattered strata as far as he went. If Randall's crater is an impact crater, there won't be any material within it, but that 100 hectares surrounding might yield something. Randall's mistake is thinking that the pictures of the stones incline anyone to hunt there. If he threw it open to all comers and set up a free Koolaide stand in the desert, he'd probably have a long wait to use those frosty mugs for any actual meteorite hunters. Despite his friendly message to prospective hunters, the fishheads and maggotty rice don't make the stones look any more meteoric than they did before. The fact that no Earth geologist can say immediately just what they are does not logically demonstrate that they are un-Earthly. The Earth still keeps a few little secrets of her own. How did josephinite form and why is it on the surface of the Earth instead of in the mantle? It's a mystery to me, and yet, you can buy it on eBay. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Peruvian meteorite crater - friendly warningtohunters that may be considering... On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:22:40 -0700, you wrote: Threats like this make me want to run right down there just to prove I could get away with it. Tell me about it. I'm not entirely clear on this-- is this big meteorite strewnfield (with the threats of drawing, quartering, and reincarnation as a young boy trapped in an elevator with Michael Jackson if you jump his claim) the same as the Venus meteorite he is evangelizing about? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hunting Martian Fossils Best Bet For Locating MarsLife
Hi, List, discovery may involve finding biologically formed structures in old sedimentary deposits... like stromatolites found here on Earth. I say we get up a kitty to send Dave Freeman! Mars is a lot like Wyoming, Dave, only redder. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 1:01 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Hunting Martian Fossils Best Bet For Locating MarsLife College of Liberal Arts and Sciences Arizona State University Tempe, Arizona Media contacts: Skip Derra, (602) 510-3402 Robert Burnham, (480) 458-8207 Source: Jack Farmer, (480) 560-1764 Feb. 16, 2007 Hunting Martian fossils best bet for locating Mars life, says ASU researcher SAN FRANCISCO, Calif. -- Hunting for traces of life on Mars calls for two radically different strategies, says Arizona State University professor Jack Farmer. Of the two, he says, with today's exploration technology we can most easily look for evidence for past life, preserved as fossil biosignatures in old rocks. Farmer is a professor of geological sciences in ASU's School of Earth and Space Exploration, where he heads the astrobiology program. He is reporting on his work today (Feb. 16) at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in San Francisco. Searching for extraterrestrial life must follow two alternative pathways, each requiring a different approach and tools, Farmer says. If we're looking for living organisms, we are doing exobiology. But if we are seeking traces -- biosignatures -- of ancient life, it's better to call it exopaleontology. Unfortunately, he notes, for the next 10 or 15 years, technology limitations will force us down the exopaleontology path. The core issue is accessibility. To find living organisms on Mars, says Farmer, you need to find liquid water. Because liquid water is unstable on the Martian surface today, that means going deep into the subsurface. Water saturates the ground in high latitudes north and south, and around both poles, only a few inches below the surface, Farmer explains. But this water remains frozen year round. Environments with liquid water will likely lie far deeper, perhaps miles below the surface. Organisms have been found living in fractured rock, thousands of feet underground on Earth, Farmer notes. But with current robotic technology, we simply can't drill that deep on Mars. Terrestrial deep drilling requires complex, heavy equipment, plus constant supervision and troubleshooting by human crews. Says Farmer, We'll be lucky if, in the next decade or so, robotic drilling on Mars reaches a depth of a couple yards. So where does that leave us in the search for life on Mars? Farmer says our best choice is to pursue the exopaleontology path. Finding the signatures of an ancient Martian biosphere means exploring old rocks that might preserve traces of life for millions or billions of years, Farmer notes. Among the best places to look on Mars, he says, are deposits left by springs and former lakes in the heavily cratered highlands. The rocks there date from a period in Martian history when liquid water was common at the surface. In fact, says Farmer, conditions on Mars then were likely similar to those on the early Earth at the time when life began. Besides water, life also requires energy sources and organic chemical building blocks, Farmer explains. The Mars Exploration Rover Opportunity found ample evidence for water in ancient rocks at Meridiani Planum, but the rovers' instruments can't detect organic materials. However, NASA's next rover, the Mars Science Laboratory, will carry instruments to analyze traces of organic substances. It is due for launch in 2009. Recognizing a Martian fossil may be difficult. We're not talking about stumbling over dinosaur bones, Farmer says. Instead, the discovery may involve finding biologically formed structures in old sedimentary deposits, perhaps like stromatolites found here on Earth. Stromatolites are distinctive structures that form in shallow oceans, lakes, or streams where microbial colonies trap sediments to form thin repeating layers. Stromatolites also contain microscopic cellular remains and chemical traces left by the microbes that formed them. Taken together, such structures comprise the primary record of life in ancient rocks on Earth. For hunting Martian fossils, says Farmer, we will need robotic microscopic imagers capable of viewing rocks in many wavelengths as well as seeing details as small as a hundredth of a millimeter across. Also needed are organic chemistry laboratories to analyze promising rocks. That will help us avoid mistaking non-biological features for biological ones, he says. Farmer's fieldwork has taken him to extreme microbial habitats in Iceland, New Zealand, Yellowstone National Park
Re: [meteorite-list] Info needed
Hi, Michael, The source is a newspaper: New York Times (published in New York, New York, USA) Date (of report in NYT): December 8, 1929 Date of Incident: Not Specified Location: Zvezvan, Yugoslavia Details: A meteortite struck a wedding party in Zvezvan, killing one person. I think that little newspaper is still in business; maybe they kept some of their old papers in the basement; who knows? You could check. :-) Reported in the book Rain Of Iron and Ice by John S. Lewis, 1996, in a table of hundreds of Property Damage, Injuries, and Deaths Caused by Meteorite Falls, found on pp. 176-182. The Hammer List Deluxe... Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Michael L Blood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 1:08 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Info needed In my never ending quest of hammers and information re same, I have come across this puppy a couple of times: Dec. 8, 1929 YugoslaviaMeteor hits bridal party, killed 1 Note that no name is provided for this fall. It is, of course, not on the Walter Branch Hits page. Any info anyone can provide me will be appreciated. Thanks, Michael -- You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice because thorns have roses. - Ziggy - in a comic strip by Tom Wilson -- __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more
Hi, Michael, Jeffrey, List Michael, as you well know, if the stone is not preserved, conserved, abducted by a museum, university, or government agency, examined by a geologist, mineralogist, scholar, savant, published, mentioned, noted, or abstracted, and then, in more scientific times, cut, sectioned, analyzed, poked in the noble gases and asked to cough --- it does not exist. There is no meteorite named ZVEZVAN, no entries in the Catalogue, no specimens, no slices, no nothing. Just an article in the NYTimes and one dead wedding guest. Not much, unless the wedding guest mattered to you. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. What? Slow news day in Zvezvan? There are innumerable historical accounts of fabulous events for which at the time there was no rational explanation that are perfectly and consistently what would be expected from a meteorite that are presently blythely dismissed as being without proof. There is a well-known case of a Franciscan monk of Milan being killed by a meteorite striking him in the leg (17th century). This is a much disputed account despite a large number of witness and perfectly consistent details. It was called a celestial stoning, the notion of meteorites being unknown at the time, and was widely reported and well attested, but is widely regarded by the experts of today as the report of the ignorant and the credulous. Then, in 1985, a historian quite accidentally discovered a lengthy account written by the physician who attempted to save the monk's life (and failed). The autopsy report is clear: the man's thigh was punctured side-to-side by a blocky piece of heavy dark stone larger than a bullet; the wound would have been survivable except that the stone severed the femoral artery and the victim bled out. Those 17th century guys just didn't realize that without a video tape of the whole thing, nobody was ever going to believe them! No guest shot on Oprah for them... But, frankly, to dismiss entirely these accounts for which there is no inherent clause for dismissal as the report of the ignorant and the credulous is... What's the word? Oh, yes: ignorant and credulous. But I'm just re-iterating in a minor way the discussion in Chap. 13 of Lewis book. Go read that, an excellent book on meteorites. Jeffrey, if you have archival access to the NYT, you might try for March 11, 1897 (1:4) account of a meteorite whose fragments pierced walls, killed one horse, injured another, and knocked out cold a man named David Leisure, in New Martinsville, West Virginia, apparently an explosive air-burst. (That's all I have, and that may have been all that was in the Times.) As for the glowing hot references in such accounts, that is the result of one of the great fallacies of human perception and need not invalidate an account. Ascribing heat to meteorites is akin to seeing lightening as red. Before 1800, in the many hundreds of descriptions of lightening to be found in the literatures of every culture on the planet, lightening is described as being red in color. I accumulated 700 references to the color of lightening prior to the late 18th century and found only one reference to blue lightening; ALL others were red. Since the early 19th century, lightening is always described as blue, blue-white, bluish white. Why? Better eyesight nowadays? No. Before 1800, everyone knew lightening was fire from heaven, and fire is red. Now, everyone knows that lightening is electrical, a gigantic atmospheric spark, and electricity is blue (or blue-white). Any (and every) fool knows that. Human beings DO NOT SEE what's in front of them; they DO SEE what they know to be true. They know meteorites are fiery objects, so they're hot. Reality has nothing to do with it. A great many genuine in-the-book historical falls come with witness descriptions of hot rocks. Whether there are ever any real hot rocks is impossible to determine because they're going to be reported as hot whether they were or not. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Michael L Blood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jeffrey Shallit [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite List Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more Hi Jeffrey, Thanks! However, I was wondering what the NAME of this meteorite is Zvezvan is not listed in Meteorites A to Z. Michael on 2/24/07 5:26 PM, Jeffrey Shallit at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ask and ye shall receive: Little thing like a meteor fails to discourage bride New York Times December 8 1929 p. E1 Special correspondence of the New York Times Belgrade, Nov. 20. - The heavens blessed a bride in unwonted and unwelcome form in the village of Zvezvan today. As the wedding party was nearing the church a meteor fell into one of the carriages
Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more AGAIN
Hi, Mark is certainly correct about the hoaxing propensities of 19th century (and early 20th century) newspapers. The ultimate example is that is the Great Moon Hoax of 1832: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Moon_Hoax You will note that Mark's list is of very dramatic accounts. OK, the death of a wedding guest has a certain drama, but the death of a horse in West Virginia is not the stuff of a real blockbuster. To be sure, we need to be certain. Somebody has to go there, get the stone, and do all the scientific dirty work. BUT, that does not mean the obverse, that all unverified events are untrue, hoaxes, folk tales, urban legends, and the like. SOME are; others are not. When we get back to older historical records, they are most often just that: records, official, never made public, internal documents, private correspondence, and so forth. Gervase of Canterbury's description of a dramatic Lunar impact event witnessed on the evening of June 18, 1178, was recorded in the day book of the monastery and not discovered for many centuries; it was not sent immediately to cable TV. [Currently that event is on the debunking calendar: http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news118.html but the debunker's arguments are themselves bunk, well, that's not the topic here.] But, in Mark's wonderful collection of newspaper accounts of real meteorites that actually fell, one will find lots of bizarre details that sound fake. So, if REAL falls produce partially unbelievable accounts, why should a reasonably sober account be dismissed out of hand? Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: MARK BOSTICK [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more Michael Blood asked: However, I was wondering what the NAME of this meteorite is Zvezvan is not listed in Meteorites A to Z. Because newspaper reports are not always correct. I wouldn't add any of these to your list either Michael. http://www.meteoritearticles.com/meteorwrongsMT.html Clear Skies, Mark __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Steve's Imilac Trip, slightly off-topic: pisco
Hi, All Pisco Fans, For those who cannot find Pisco at their corner store, or who never get to travel to the High Desert but are stuck in the Great Bottoms, there is the Internet Safari to the PiscoMall: http://www.piscomall.com/ They sell 50 different kinds of Pisco. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Steve Schoner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Steve's Imilac Trip, slightly off-topic: pisco Rob, I'll check it out. In '96 there was no supplier anywhere that I could find. I suppose that things have changed since. But I have never seen it anywhere here in Flagstaff. Guess none have the taste for it. Steve. -- Matson, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Steve and List, Regarding Peruvian pisco, Steve wrote: I can say this, Pisco is great at altitude. I did not have a hangover the next day at all, neither did Marvin or Hurley. I bought two bottles on the way back and have yet to find it here in the US. ... P.S. Any liquor importers out there: Re-name Pisco to METEOR with a nice landscape logo with a meteor streaking downward. I bet it would then find a market here in the U.S.-- Especially with high altitude meteorite hunters. Pisco is actually fairly easy to get in the U.S. I noticed a while back that one of my favorite local wine shops (Hi Time Wine Cellars in Costa Mesa, CA) carries about a half-dozen varities of Pisco: http://www.hitimewine.net/istar.asp?a=3dept=01class=02subclass=03 Perhaps you have a local specialty wine store that offers it. Or you may even be able to buy it online at the above link. Since Pisco is made from grapes (obviously highly distilled), it is often categorized with brandy (though sometimes with tequila). --Rob __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Enquiry to BIMS
Hi, Dave, The Olympic Penisula lies to the NW of Seattle. It is the ONLY area of the United State with deposits of manganese, presently undeveloped and still in their native state. http://www.washington.edu/uwired/outreach/cspn/Website/Resources/Curriculum/Evergreen/Documents/32.html Manganese is found in large deposits from Lake Crescent on the north, around to the eastern side of the [Olympic Mountain] range, south to Lake Quinault. Several thousand claims have been filed within this area... Geologists who have studied this region have stated that the manganese of the Olympics is sufficient to supply the needs of the Nation for many generations... Manganese is essential in all modern alloys and is therefore necessary for all industries and vital to the Nation in case of war. Aside from the deposits in the Olympic Peninsula the manganese deposits in the United States are very limited, and [the manganese] now used is imported, principally from Russia. Darrington, WA is NNE of Seattle (and curiously just down the road a bit from a town name Swede Heaven) and is just 50 miles from the Olympic National Forest. I advise your friend to quit worrying about manganese neteorites and stake a mining claim -- pronto! Unless he was claim-jumping... In that case, he might need that AK-47. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Dave Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: metlist meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 12:48 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Enquiry to BIMS Hi tout le Monde, I got a call from a chap in County Wexford in Ireland a couple of days ago, excited about a find he got. Now, he has had some initial analysis done by a chap called Professor David Green who works at the Manchester museum. OK - fact - Dave Greene has XRD'd it and confirmed that this item is either pure Mn or largely Mn - I am not sure which - this rules out it being extraterrestrial. I do have some pics - mainly blurry - which shows something rather like a CD to be honest with you. It was the location of the find that got this chap interested and as I know squat about the location in the USA I'd run it by you for some answers. The finder claims to have recovered this lump (looks about 200-300g in weight) from the Cascades, near the Rockies, Washington, about 75 miles NW of Seattle - I am quoting him here - I have no idea whether this geographical relationship is true. He advised that this is REALLY wild country and he was out there on a exploratory trip armed with AK47s due to bears. Again - I am just repeating what I was told. He has been contacting a friend who lives in Darrington wa state again, I quote from an email. Prof Green is certain it is NOT meteoritic, no troilite inclusions and suggested that is it the product of a manganese mine (which was my original suggesttion). However the finder is CONVINCED that the are this lump was found is totally off the beaten track. Do any of you know this area? Are there Mn mines out there? I just would like to show the finder that I have made every effort to resolve his mystery lump of metal. thanks! dave Dave IMCA #0092 Sec.BIMS www.bimsociety.org __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Geologists Find Meteorite on Panama Beach
Hi, After 24 hours, still no other news reports. Assuming this is not a newsman's fantasy, the remark: appears to be mainly carbon-based could be reporter-distort for it's a carbonaceous chondrite. As for the Panamanian source, I think they have the name wrong, but there is a Panamanian government geologist named Juan de Dios Villa Mata (not Juan de Dios Villa). The wonders of Google strike again. He is, as described, a major figure in the National Mineral Resources Directorate and was the coordinator of the Panamanian portion of Canada's RadarSat2 survey in 2002. And speaking of Mystery Rocks... What ever happened to The New Jersey Iron?! Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 8:46 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Geologists Find Meteorite on Panama Beach http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-03/01/content_5786159.htm Geologists find meteorite on Panama beach China View February 28, 2007 PANAMA CITY (Xinhua) -- Panamanian geologists have found an meteorite at Rio Hato, a coastal town west of the capital Panama City. The meteorite fell onto Rio Hato's beach last Friday, geologist Juan de Dios Villa told the press on Wednesday. The landing was witnessed by a security guard, who described it as a ball of fire crashing down from the sky onto the sand. The 4.2 kg red object, measuring 20 cm in diameter, will be X-rayed for more details, said Villa, chief geologist at the National Mineral Resources Directorate. The meteorite shows burn marks on its exterior, and appears to be mainly carbon-based, in contrast to most meteorites, which mainly contain iron. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Fw: Last on Adamana for a while (I hope)
T'm re-posting this, as the first try didn't go through, think it was too long with all the previous messages in the thread still attached. Sorry if it's a second copy. -- Hi, At the risk of stepping into a private argument and collecting a wild punch, I just wanted to point out something about meteoric entry. The stone is most likely to fragment at the point of maximum dynamic pressure from the atmosphere (or Max Q). The dynamic pressure equals (density) x (velocity)^2 / 2. Now, the square of the object's velocity decreases exponentially, that is to say very rapidly, from the drag created by that rising pressure. A good chunk of rock is going to be slowing down at anywhere from 50 gees to perhaps 200 gees. We can measure the actual deceleration of meteors and we can test existing meteorites to determine their crushing strength, and that is the range we find. The average is about 80 gees. The density of the atmosphere increases linearly in proportion to altitude, so the pressure builds up mostly in the later stages of the entry. These three factors (rapid slowdown, weak stones, and atmospheric density) combine to USUALLY result in a low altitude fragmentation. If the stone is extremely weak (friable) it will fragment at a higher altitude than a normal stone. Stones that fragment into a very large number of pieces (like Holbrook) seem to do so because they are very weak. Thus, Holbrook could be considered atypically weak and that could produce some odd behavior. While Jason is correct that the maximum pressure is exerted on the nose of a nose cone, that point is also the most stable and the least subject to vibration. The external shock waves in hypersonic flight could have folded smoothly over the ablating cone-shaped portion of the mass and then become turbulent further back along the more irregular and less ablated main body of the object, producing buffeting and vibration that caused the main portion of the mass to shatter and break, while the nose managed to transition the hypersonic-subsonic boundary more or less intact, leaving the second stone to re-fragment and re-fragment, ablating until they too could also drop to subsonic velocities. It's an unusual scenario, not the normal breakup (if there is such a thing as a normal meteoric breakup). If you ever seen an ablating entry (or re-entry), there can be an amazing amount of tumbling and gyrations of fragments after they break loose from a larger mass. This could all be a wild fantasy but, interestingly, there is this paper that claims that a mathematical analysis of the distribution of sizes of fragments found in a meteorite fall can reveal such details as the number of breakups the object went through or if the shape of the original body deviated from the spherical: http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/0295-5075/43/5/598/node4.html by L. Oddershede (Technical University of Denmark ), A. Meibom (University of Odense, Denmark ) and J. Bohr (Hawai'i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology, University of Hawai'i at Manoa) The authors say: A known example is the Holbrook shower, where the presence of different thicknesses of the fusion crust shows that the meteoroid was subject to at least two fragmentation processes. The mass distribution of fragments from the Holbrook shower... seems S-shaped which might be consistent with a superposition of two power laws with different cut-off masses... The mass distributions could equally well or better be a result of three (or more) fragmentations. They are talking about the fragments called Holbrook only, but it is clear that the statistics suggest a stepped process in which a big rock breaks into two rocks, one of which breaks into multiple fragments, the largest of which could in turn break into smaller multiple fragments... They studied a number of showers and found some to be the result of a single fragmentation event and some to be the result of multiple fragmentations. Quite incidentally, the equations also imply the volumetric coefficient of the original shape. The Mbale Object was almost spherical (with Vc=3) while the original Sikhote-Aline meteoroid was a long cylinder (Vc=1.8). Hey, no wonder it had such a bumpy ride! A big iron splinter. Jason would be right in that it is counter-intuitive and does not follow the usual course of events for the many Holbrooks and the Venus Stone to be part of the same mass, but there are many indications that this may be an unusual fragmentation event, in which case all the usual bets could be off. Theory is one thing, but the proof is always on the ground (or in it, sometimes). Keep hunting! Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: DNAndrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:09 PM Subject: [meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Peruvian bolide message rehash, ALL
. Witnesses reported sounds up to 64 km from the terminal explosion. The fireball lit up entire valleys bright enough to stimulate full color vision (the absolute visual magnitude was -17). The explosion produced a signal on a seismometer 325 km away. This event may have produced up to 2 kg of meteorites, but nothing has been recovered. This was an impressive fireball, but such meteors happen several times every day over the Earth. That's worth repeating: such meteors happen several times every day over the Earth. Another List quote from Chris Peterson (both are from June 13, 2006): Seismic events are routine with moderate and large fireballs... Even sonic booms from airplanes are recorded on seismometers. The effect of a large mass of air on the ground is significant. On the other hand, I'm not aware of any actual impacts producing measurable seismic signals. In other words, airbursts are likely to produce seismic signals, but the making of a small crater is not. Also, proving a crater-like feature to actually BE a crater and proving that stones that you found actually ARE meteorites are not necessarily logically connected. You can have a crater without meteorites and meteorites without a crater; proof of one does not prove the other. Since a prospective meteorite is an actual bird-in-the-hand and you say you have such stones, I would think the logical thing would be to investigate the stones you have. I'm pretty sure you're the provider of the pictures of the stones (similar to the stones on the venusmeteorite.com site) that appear on Randy Korotev's Meteorwrong site. He suggested that you get some thin sections cut and examined by a petrologist. The expense wouldn't be outrageous and I would guess you'd find some willing talent with experience of meteorite thin sections right here in the List. Did you ever do that? Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Matson, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 4:56 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Peruvian bolide message rehash, #2 Hi All, Here was my reply to the first message from yesterday: - - - - Sent: 3/1/2007 11:15am PST Hi Randall, Do you really believe that a dust-devil the size of a F3* tornado, eyewitnesses to a streak leaving a trail, and a 4.0 earthquake event just happened to occur simultaneously at exactly 12:00 is just a coincidence? Isn't that stretching Occam's Razor just a tweak? I'm not saying all three pieces of evidence are unrelated; I'm saying that all THREE cannot be due to the fall/impact of a meteorite. It give a rough approximation to the expected effects of a large mass impacting the earth's surface. I tried adjusting the variables to approximate a 4.0 seismo. The results are at the lower levels of impact. This program indicated that there probably would not have been impactites created but would have produced small cratering. It also indicates that meteorites would have a much higher velocity than you stated. You indicated a couple of hundred meters per second. The actual velocity I believe would be closer to 15 kilometers/sec. Pardon my saying so, but you are obviously well out of your area of expertise. There is absolutely NO WAY a meteoroid with cosmic velocity hit the earth in Peru without the entire world knowing about it. Do you have any idea how large an object has to be in order to retain much of its cosmic velocity and impact the ground at even 5 km/sec, let alone 15 km/sec? As I wrote earlier, you wouldn't be talking about a puny 1 kiloton event. The shock wave would have killed your witnesses. The seismometers could have measured only three things: an earthquake, a manmade explosion (less likely if the 4.0 reading is to be believed), or the terminal explosion of a bolide. As I wrote earlier, all you need to do is look at the timing of the shock waves at the geographically dispersed seismic stations. In 30 seconds I could tell you just from inspection whether the network detected an atmospheric (acoustic) event, or a seismic event. You claim you have this data, so why speculate about farfetched scenarios? --Rob __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Last on Adamana for a while (I hope)
Hi, At the risk of stepping into a private argument and collecting a wild punch, I just wanted to point out something about meteoric entry. The stone is most likely to fragment at the point of maximum dynamic pressure from the atmosphere (or Max Q). The dynamic pressure equals (density) x (velocity)^2 / 2. Now, the square of the object's velocity decreases exponentially, that is to say very rapidly, from the drag created by that rising pressure. A good chunk of rock is going to be slowing down at anywhere from 50 gees to perhaps 200 gees. We can measure the actual deceleration of meteors and we can test existing meteorites to determine their crushing strength, and that is the range we find. The density of the atmosphere increases linearly in proportion to altitude, so the pressure builds up mostly in the later stages of the entry. The three factors (rapid slowdown, weak stones, and atmospheric density) combine to USUALLY result in a low altitude fragmentation. If the stone is unusually weak (friable) it will fragment at a higher altitude. Stones that fragment into a very large number of pieces (like Holbrook) seem to do so because they are very weak. Thus, Holbrook could be considered atypically weak and that could produce some odd behavior. While Jason is correct that the maximum pressure is exerted on the nose of a nose cone, that point is also the most stable and the least subject to vibration. The external shock waves in hypersonic flight could have folded smoothly over the ablating cone-shaped portion of the mass and then become turbulent further back along the more irregular and less ablated main body of the object, producing buffeting and vibration that caused the main portion of the mass to shatter and break in half (or at least into two pieces because the stone was very weak), while the nose managed to transition the hypersonic-subsonic boundary more or less intact, leaving the second stone to re-fragment and re-fragment, ablating until they too could also drop to subsonic velocities. It's an unusual scenario, not the normal breakup (if there is such a thing as a normal meteoric breakup). This could all be a wild fantasy but, interestingly, there is this paper that claims that a mathematical analysis of the distribution of sizes of fragments found in a meteorite fall can reveal such details as the number of breakups the object went through or if the shape of the original body deviated from the spherical: http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/0295-5075/43/5/598/node4.html by L. Oddershede (Technical University of Denmark ), A. Meibom (University of Odense, Denmark ) and J. Bohr (Hawai'i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology, University of Hawai'i at Manoa) The authors say: A known example is the Holbrook shower, where the presence of different thicknesses of the fusion crust shows that the meteoroid was subject to at least two fragmentation processes. The mass distribution of fragments from the Holbrook shower... seems S-shaped which might be consistent with a superposition of two power laws with different cut-off masses... The mass distributions could equally well or better be a result of three (or more) fragmentations. They are talking about the fragments called Holbrook only, but it is clear that the statistics suggest a stepped process in which a big rock breaks into two rocks, one of which breaks into multiple fragments, the largest of which could in turn break into smaller multiple fragments... They studied a number of showers and found some to be the result of a single fragmentation event and some to be the result of multiple fragmentations. Quite incidentally, the equations also imply the volumetric coefficient of the original shape. The Mbale Object was almost spherical (with Vc=3) while the original Sikhote-Aline meteoroid was a long cylinder (Vc=1.8). Hey, no wonder it had such a bumpy ride! A big iron splinter. Jason would be right in that it is counter-intuitive and does not follow the usual course of events for the many Holbrooks and the Venus Stone to be part of the same mass, but there are many indications that this may be an unusual fragmentation event, in which case all the usual bets are off. Theory is one thing, but the proof is always on the ground (or in it, sometimes). Keep hunting! Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: DNAndrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:09 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Last on Adamana for a while (I hope) Hi again, Jason, I've been researching the Holbrook field and it's history for about 9 years now. Talking to old timers and listening to their stories passed down from their ancestors, etc. I've found 100's of the stones and the people I've hunted with, at least a hundred more. I think I/we have a pretty good idea now as to the orientation
[meteorite-list] BATCH REPEAT MAILS
Hi, List, Only in the digital universe! A recursive message structure (the Thread), the subject of which is re-iterative recursive messages and which contains re-iterated recursive messages complaining about recursive re-iteration, which messages are themselves re-iterated and generate further recursive messages which complain about their own re-iteration (is this re-re-re-iteration?). Here's some suggestions: a.) Avoid hallways with mirrors on both sides. b.) Don't throw back your head and yell Echo! c.) Find the Evil Wizard's Talisman and break it. d.) Don't quarrel with your Doppelganger. e.) Don't send messages like this, that only re-iterate... Whoops! Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Sikhote-Alin Impact Pits - Interesting Update
Hi, Jeff, This is a coastal defense gun, intended to be used against approaching naval forces. The longest-range coastal pieces were the two 12-inch guns of Batteries Hearn and Smith, with a horizontal range of 29,000 yards. Although capable of an all around traverse, these guns, due to their flat trajectories, were not effective for use against targets on Bataan, so that they could not be used against the Japanese after they had occupied it! The gun in your photo is one of those two guns, but I can't say whether it was Battery Hearn or Battery Smith. The other 12-inch Batteries were mortars rather than long-range guns. They brought the most destruction on Japanese positions during the attempted landings on the southwest coast of Bataan late in January to the middle of February, 1942. These mortars were silenced by enemy shelling in May, 1942. Battery Geary was a battery of six 13-ton, 12-inch mortars. This battery, when pinpointed by the Japanese, was subjected to heavy shelling. One direct hit by a 240 mm shell, which detonated the magazines of this Battery in May 1942, proved to be the most crippling shot during the entire siege of Corregidor. This shelling tossed the mortars around, one to a distance of 150 yards, another was blown through three feet of reinforced concrete wall into the adjoining powder magazine of Battery Crockett. Large chunks of steel were blown as far as the Malinta Tunnel, while 27 of the battery crew were killed instantly. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Jeff Kuyken [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:45 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Sikhote-Alin Impact Pits - Interesting Update G'day all, I received a very interesting email today from someone who had read through my Sikhote-Alin Impact Pit page. They sent me a couple of photographs of a large gun on Corregidor Island, Philippines which was damaged from a WW2 bomb. The resulting damage is unmistakably similar to the pits found on some SA's. The pics are at the bottom of this page: http://www.meteorites.com.au/features/impactpits.html Comments welcome. Does anyone know what type/size of gun this is? Cheers, Jeff __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Suspected Meteorite Hits Illinois Home
Hi, The photo in the article (way too small) looks like the real thing. After all the bitching we do about the press and the ignorant things they say, we ought to give a medal to this newspaper, The Pantagraph, for this article which accompanied their meteorite story: http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2007/03/05/news/doc45ec957f7da1f395589287.txt Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 4:34 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Suspected Meteorite Hits Illinois Home http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2007/03/05/news/doc45ec62e14a6c2722505892.txt Suspected meteorite hits Bloomington home By M.K. Guetersloh Pantagraph (Bloomington, Illinois) March 5, 2007 UPDATE 2:30 p.m. BLOOMINGTON - A Bloomington couple caught a falling star Monday morning not quite in their pockets but in a bedroom of their house. A chunk of metal that crashed through the bedroom window of David and Dee Riddle just after 9:30 a.m. appears may be a meteorite but it also could be a piece of space junk according to preliminary analysis by several Illinois State University geology professors. However, the professors who had a look at it agree that whatever the heavy, gray metal-based object that crashed through their window definitely came from space. Robert Skip Nelson, a professor of geology at ISU, came out to Riddles' home to take a look at the object, which is about the size and shape of deck of cards. Nelson said based on the density of the object, the metal could be an iron-nickel mixture or a heavy stainless steel. It is unlikely a satellite or spacecraft would contain metal that heavy and dense, Nelson said. In my 36 years of investigating meteorite calls, this looks like the real thing, Nelson said. Nelson said to be sure the next step will be to call the United State Geological Survey's meteorite center in Flagstaff, Ariz. Because of the steep entry angle into the house and the speed the object crashed into the house, Nelson said is definitely was not a rock thrown at the window. Eric Peterson, an assistant professor of geology, calculated the speed the possible meteorite hit the home was at least 60 miles an hour. Dee Riddle, who runs a day-care out of their Partner Place house, said she heard the crash and felt the house shake around 9:30 a.m. My first thought was a bathroom mirror fell so I immediately started looking, Riddle said. That's when I found the hole in the mini-blinds and the broken window. We were just lucky no one was sitting at the computer when it happened. In addition to breaking through the window, the possible meteorite hit the computer desk putting a hole through the particle board. Nelson said the last confirmed meteorite to hit Bloomington was in the 1930s. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Suspected Meteorite Hits Illinois Home
Hi, I take it all back; it DOESN'T look anything like a meteorite. (Where'd you find the additional pictures?) Very few irons fall pre-rusted... Ignore my prior post. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 5:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Suspected Meteorite Hits Illinois Home On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:34:03 -0800 (PST), you wrote: http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2007/03/05/news/doc45ec62e14a6c2722505892.txt Robert Skip Nelson, a professor of geology at ISU, came out to Riddles' home to take a look at the object, which is about the size and shape of deck of cards. Nelson said based on the density of the object, the metal could be an iron-nickel mixture or a heavy stainless steel. It is unlikely a satellite or spacecraft would contain metal that heavy and dense, Nelson said. In my 36 years of investigating meteorite calls, this looks like the real thing, Nelson said. Robert Skip Nelson needs to turn in his meteorite investigator card. This thing is so obviously, unambigiously NOT a meteorite that one of those preschoolers in the first photo should be able to point it out: http://webpages.charter.net/garrison6328/notameteorite.jpg __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] The large meteorite of 1859: anyone know if thishas a grain of truth?
Hi, Chris You have to ask? An 80-foot high meteorite covering 0.5 acre (100' x 200')? Which was originally a 22 meter iron sphere? That object, at the slowest entry speed (12 km/s), gets you a 1 MegaTon (TNT) impact and a 1650-foot crater, 352 feet deep! I think SOMEBODY would have noticed. Coshocton, Ohio, just LOVES meteorite stories! Last one in 02-15-07, another in 2004. Mark Bostick's site shows old ones in 1939, 1930, 1925, 1916. Meteoric Tall Tales seem to a strong Coshocton tradition... Or at least a tradition of Coshocton newspapers, a proven circulation booster, perhaps? Maybe they're jealous of the New Concord meteorite in the next county over. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: chris aubeck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 2:35 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] The large meteorite of 1859: anyone know if thishas a grain of truth? Was there a meteorite in this location, at that time? Best, Chris 1859 07 06 Coshocton Progressive Age [Ohio] July 6, 1859 Great Natural Phenomenon. From the Oswego Palladium. On Wednesday (yesterday) morning [June 29] the inhabitants of the towns of Boylston and Redfield, in this county, were startled by the occurrence of a most remarkable phenomenon -- the descent from the heavens of an immense meteoritic mass. The body struck the earth between the hours of three and four A.M., with a crash that was truly terrific, and the shock was sensibly felt and people aroused from their sleep at a distance of five miles from the scene. The body fell upon the farm of Horace Sanger, situated on the line of Boylston and Redfield, striking in a meadow and partially on the highway. It is estimated by our informant to cover half an acre of land. The earth was torn up in a terrible manner, and large fragments were thrown a distance of two-thirds of a mile. The mass is very irregular in shape, and rises at some points to sixty to eighty feet in height, and is supposed to be imbedded in the earth many feet. The surface generally has the appearance of iron ore. The excitement occasioned by the event among the inhabitants was intense, and the crash is said to have been terrific beyond description. Many supposed that the final winding up of terrestrial affairs had truly arrived. MR. HADLEY'S STATEMENT. I was awakened about three o'clock on Wednesday morning, by the room in which I slept being filled with light, and immediately heard a rushing sound like the coming of a great wind. This did not last above a few seconds after I was awake, when an explosion followed of which I can give no description -- it was terrific. The whole house shook as if a hundred cannon had been fired under the windows; quite a number of panes of glass were broken out of the windows, and the plastering of the room I was in came tumbling about me. The light, which was so brilliant that I could plainly see every object in the room, was at once extinguished. The window of my room is on the opposite side of the house from the place where the meteor fell, so that I can only judge of its direction. The light seemed to come from some body moving very rapidly and from south to north, and seemed to increase rapidly during the brief space that preceded the explosion. The aerolite struck the earth in some timber land belonging to Mr. Sanger, in a thinly inhabited portion of the town. We believe Mr. Hadley's is the nearest dwelling. It seems to have been an almost spherical body of, as near as we can judge from the fragments remaining, about seventy-five feet in diameter. Its course was from southwest to northeast, and descended at an angle of not more than thirty degrees from the horizon, which is proved by its track through the heavy hemlock trees before it touched the earth. The trees are cut through as a cannon ball would cut through a hedge, leaving a clear track. The velocity must have been immense. The earth is torn up for several rods, and the huge trees are splintered and piled up like brush. One large hemlock, at least four feet in diameter, near whose roots the meteor struck, was thrown bodily for eighty yards, crushing the surrounding trees like pipe stems. Fragments of a huge sandstone boulder which lay in its course were thrown in all directions, and one weighing half a ton was found on the road three-fourths of a mile away. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] The large meteorite of 1859: anyone know if thishas a grain of truth?
Hi, Chris, An interesting folkloric problem: do folktales evolve (or possibly devolve) from the seed of an actual event? Or the misconceptions about an actual event? I suggested the New Concord, Ohio meteorite: it fell only 15 miles away from Coshocton, on May 1, 1860, and killed a horse, was witnessed, and probably generated a lot of talk with its 227 kilos of space rock! (New Concord is the birthplace of John Glenn, BTW.) In the newspaper articles archived by Mark Bostick, there are a pageful about New Concord: http://www.meteoritearticles.com/znpnewconcord.html One says: A meteoric shower, which appears to have extended over the greater part of Eastern Ohio, fell on Tuesday last. Another newspaper says the pieces were found up to 50 miles apart, and another reported the event as an major earthquake which was accompanied by the fall of four meteoric stones. (Formed by earthquake lightning, I suppose...) The other twilight zone feature is the date: your article predates the New Concord event! Looking through the index of Mark's archive, it's remarkable how many Ohio newspapers are listed. Maybe they just liked meteorite stories or maybe there are more surviving old newspapers in Ohio. The Smithsonian has many clippings about meteorites in the papers of C. U. Shepard, who once had the largest American meteorite collection: http://siarchives.si.edu/findingaids/FARU7283.htm You'd have to go there and get them to let you look at the clippings, though... It may be relevant that 1859 is the year that Evans submitted the sample (Imilac) of the Port Orford GIANT METEORITE!! announced the previous year. I use capitals because that's the way it was presented by Evans, as a major event (worthy of more funding). It appears from your transcription that the Coshocton newspaper is quoting a story from the Oswego (NY) Palladium. I found no 1859 meteorite story on-line from The Palladium, however. One of Mark's articles from 1859: http://www.meteoritearticles.com/znp08151859.html says, We have a lively recollection of the Oswego meteor hoax. It would have required a larger stone than that was represented to have been... and this mention of the Oswego Meteor Hoax in the NYTimes: http://www.meteoritearticles.com/znp06221859.html I can't find any further description of the Oswego meteor hoax by Googling. Perhaps you have found a copy of it. The reference to the size of the stone suggests the exaggerated size of your report. I think you've found a text of the Oswego meteor hoax. (Oswego was also the target or source of a hoaxed snow picture just this year, February, 2007). Or it could be an independent hoax inspired by Oswego. But certainly your clipping belongs in the archive of great old time meteor hoaxes. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: chris aubeck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The large meteorite of 1859: anyone know if thishas a grain of truth? Hi Sterling, Well, it wasn't because of the details but the date and place. I believe I have traced the folkloric development of this story over time, over the following thirty years in fact, until it became a UFO tale. But I wanted to know whether it had grown out of some actual fall report, as many of these stories did. Still, you've answered my question, I think! Cheers, Chris On 3/6/07, Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Chris You have to ask? An 80-foot high meteorite covering 0.5 acre (100' x 200')? Which was originally a 22 meter iron sphere? That object, at the slowest entry speed (12 km/s), gets you a 1 MegaTon (TNT) impact and a 1650-foot crater, 352 feet deep! I think SOMEBODY would have noticed. Coshocton, Ohio, just LOVES meteorite stories! Last one in 02-15-07, another in 2004. Mark Bostick's site shows old ones in 1939, 1930, 1925, 1916. Meteoric Tall Tales seem to a strong Coshocton tradition... Or at least a tradition of Coshocton newspapers, a proven circulation booster, perhaps? Maybe they're jealous of the New Concord meteorite in the next county over. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: chris aubeck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 2:35 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] The large meteorite of 1859: anyone know if thishas a grain of truth? Was there a meteorite in this location, at that time? Best, Chris 1859 07 06 Coshocton Progressive Age [Ohio] July 6, 1859 Great Natural Phenomenon. From the Oswego Palladium. On Wednesday (yesterday) morning [June 29] the inhabitants of the towns of Boylston and Redfield, in this county, were startled by the occurrence of a most remarkable
Re: [meteorite-list] Wind speed, direction, house orientation for Bloomington, IL iron
Hi, Rob, List, The industrial facility is: Sic: 204898 PURINA MILLS INC 113 S EUCLID AVE BLOOMINGTON IL 61701 309/829-1261 You will note that under that vast roof is, not a building, but an array of metal silos for grain storage. (I'm assuming you're looking at the same Google Earth view I am.) The industrial activity carried on there is the grinding of grain into flour, a nicely neolithic task which is frankly unlikely to flang pseudometeorites about in vertical arcs. The SIC code indicates that it processes soybeans for oil. The facility is operated by Cargill, Inc. If you want to call them, contact Ray A. Dostal, 309/827-7131, and explain that you're NOT from the EPA who monitor the plant by photo reconnaissance! I've got just such a large facility right in the heart of the downtown of my town, on the edge of the Mississippi River, operated by Con-Agra, antique and built of stone, not sheet metal. It's surrounded by the downtown business district on two sides, and has never flang a pseudometeorite in a vertical arc, to my knowledge. (Occasional dust explosion is fun, though, but not enough to flang.) Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Matson, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 7:11 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Wind speed, direction,house orientation for Bloomington, IL iron Hi All, Looked up weather information for Bloomington, IL, for the day/time of the window-crasher: Monday, March 5th, ~9:30am Wind speed: 13.8 mph Wind direction: NNW Link: http://www.weatherunderground.com/history/airport/KBMI/2007/3/5/DailyHi story.html?req_city=NAreq_state=NAreq_statename=NA The broken window on the back of the house does face NW. About 600 meters to the northwest of that window is an industrial plant of some sort, just northwest of the intersection of W. Olive St. and S. Euclid Ave. Haven't determined what sort of plant this is yet. --Rob __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Illinois Meteorite Astronomy Magazine News Blog
Hi, Did I hear Wood Chipper? Case closed. There was a wood chipper working outside, audible, in the neighborhood at the time? If something crashes through your window and you hear the roar of the chipper anywhere outside, why would you imagine anything else had happened? Is the family's name Simpson? The strange looking transition between what looks like a shinier surface and a somewhat rusty looking patch commented upon is the attachment ridge I spoke of. But the RUST SURFACE alone is sufficient to rule it out. Fresh Fall = No Rusty Exterior. Junk is junk. Thanks. Mark, for finding this. Now I can totally forget about the Bloomington Object. Hey! They already HAVE one (real) meteorite. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: MARK BOSTICK [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 1:09 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Illinois Meteorite Astronomy Magazine News Blog Hello everyone, Perhaps Astronomy Magazine's Daniel Pendick was the only writer to actually contact a meteorite expert on this meteorite. http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=aid=5264 Clear Skies, Mark Bostick www.meteoritearticles.com www.imca.cc __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids?
Hi, Martin! The cost of a series production item includes on the cost of development and depends on how many copies you have made. Based on the current planned production of F-22 Raptors, the cost is $380 to $390 million apiece. Had the originally planned number of planes been built the cost would have been about $130 million each. However, it's never that simple. The follow-on F-35 Lightning II will use much of the technology developed for the F-22, but the F-35 will have a much lower cost per plane than the F-22 could ever have. Without that technological development, the cost of the F-35 would be much greater. The B-2 Spirit, built in the numbers presently contemplated, will cost $2,200 million per copy! Again, and to an even greater degree, the cost of developing the technology in the first is staggering. The actual material and man-hour manufacturing cost of building one B-2 bomber is about $120 million, one heck of a bargain. Conceived of in the 1970's, developed in the 1980's, then completely re-designed to change it from a high altitude penetrating bomber to a low altitude penetrating bomber (will you make up your mind?), it was first displayed about the instant the Cold War sublimated Instead of the 136 that were planned, even without a Cold War, we decided to settle for 75 and more recently our Defender and Decider, Mr. Bush, decided that twenty were plenty, which raises the cost/plane to about $2.2 billion a bump. It is now said to be fully operational, but I cannot find out exactly how many planes have been built. (Why are you following me and where is your warrant?) However, you may live to see more B-2's or at least B-2-lookalikes, as the design engineer in charge of the propulsion system was arrested on October 2005 for selling classified information to China and possibly other countries as well. Those B-2 copies would cost considerably less, I imagine, and have a different in-flight menu. So, one B-2 equals TWO space telescopes, but it takes about three F-22's to pay for one space telescope. Of course, IF the B-2 could fly to and destroy an incoming asteroid, it would be worth $22 billion, or $22 trillion --- name your price. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids? But the space telescope is estimated to cost $1.1 billion for 15 years of operation Hmm, what does cost a F-22 and a B2 Spirit? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Ron Baalke Gesendet: Freitag, 9. März 2007 22:50 An: Meteorite Mailing List Betreff: [meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids? http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn11356-could-venus-watch-for-earthbou nd-asteroids.html Could Venus watch for Earth-bound asteroids? David L Chandler New Scientist 09 March 2007 A dedicated space-based telescope is needed to achieve a congressionally mandated goal of discovering 90% of all near-Earth asteroids down to a size of 140 metres by the year 2020, says a report NASA sent to the US Congress on Thursday. Asteroids of that size are large enough to destroy a major city or region if they strike the planet - but NASA says it does not have the money to pay for the project. The study says Venus is the best place for the telescope. That is because space rocks within Earth's orbit - where Venus lies - are most likely to be lost in the Sun's glare, potentially catching astronomers off guard. The telescope could be placed either behind or ahead of Venus in its orbit by about 60° - the stable Lagrange points, known as L4 or L5, where the gravity of the Sun and Venus are in balance. There are quite a few [objects] that are interior to Earth's orbit, NASA's Lindley Johnson told New Scientist. Those are really hard to detect [from Earth]; the opportunities to see them are very limited. From the orbit of Venus, however, you're always looking away from the Sun, always looking out, he says. And, of course, you can observe 24 hours a day - you don't have to worry about night and day. Even from Earth orbit, a telescope's view of any given part of the sky is blocked about half the time by the Earth itself. In addition, because Venus orbits the Sun in about two-thirds the time the Earth does, a telescope in that orbit would catch up with any near-Earth asteroids in their orbits more frequently than Earth does, offering more opportunities for discovery. You're able to sample that population more rapidly in the same amount of time, Johnson says. Missed deadline An infrared telescope would be more effective than one that studies visible light, because asteroids reflect sunlight more strongly at infrared wavelengths. The background sky is also much less bright
Re: [meteorite-list] Impact Origin of Carolina Bays Argued For at 2007AGU Meeting
Hi, List, Thanks, Paul, for those links. If you're not familiar with the Carolina Bays, Listees, here's a page with links to every theory about them: http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cbaymenu.html Some fascinating and non-fascinating things here. The list of logical connections that may mean nothing at all is very long. Was there a mammoth extinction event? Most diggers, bonemen, and that crowd say no, but on the other hand when's the last time you saw a mammoth? Why would a mild cooling spell extinct a cold-adapted mammal like the mammoth? Did the mammoths die out at once or over 1000 years? 2000 years? 4000 years? How fast is an event? How slow? With an ice age ending, how badly do you need an impact to explain extinctions? As far as that goes, how big an impact event do you need to explain an excess of frog ponds in the Carolinas? One of the presenters has advocated that the Bays formed by steam explosions from a thermal airburst event, formed out of beaver ponds, a particularly choice notion in view of the fact that one of the fauna extincted was the Giant Beaver! North America lost 5 species of American Horses, a few species of Western Camels, the North American llamas, two genera of Deer, two genera of Pronghorns, the Stag-Moose, Shrub-Oxen, Woodland Muskoxen, the Giant Beaver, the Shasta Ground Sloth and other Ground Sloths, Short-Faced Bears like the Cave Bear (big), Saber-toothed cats, the American Lion (bigger than the African Lion), the American Cheetah, the Dire Wolf, several species of Mammoth, the American Mastodont (Mammut americanum), the Giant Bison, and the Giant Peccary (the super Pig)! Altogether, in 50,000 years North America lost 33 genera of large mammals, and 15 genera in the period from 11,500 to 10,000 years ago. At least, we don't have to worry about the Bunyip (a Giant Killer Bunny Wabbit The Size of A Truck). The Diprotodon is Australia's problem... Worthy of note: the inclusion of Luann Becker, who I suspect has something to do with the newly uncovered evidence for ET impact at 12.9 ka including end-Clovis age sediments throughout North America with high levels of Iridium, magnetic [sic., probably magnetite] and carbon, spherules, glass-like carbon, fullerenes, and ET noble gas ratios often in association with carbonaceous black layers and succeeded by black mats with unusual biota. Particularly with those fullerenes! Firestone, who is an expert on isotopes (he wrote the book on them, literally; he is the Chief Editor of the Table of Isotopes, 8th Edition). I would not doubt anything he says... about isotopes. But he has advanced some utterly ridiculous explanations of his findings, such as interstellar comets formed in a supernova impacting at -- what was it? -- 10,000 miles per second? This naturally tends to make people dismiss the while thing. However, there is no reason why, as the world expert on isotopes, he would be any better at explaining how they got there than say, a Ph.D. in French Literature would be... or an Economist. Something happened. No one really knows what. It left traces. No one really knows whether they imply any other events or not. Whole genera of animals became extinct. No one knows if there's any connection. The list of what we don't know is much longer than the list of what we do. And if you're wondering what the Younger Dryas is... After the ice age started to end and the ice caps started to melt rapidly, they suddenly slowed down and almost stopped melting, then they began to rapidly melt again after the Younger Dryas. Obviously, a cooling episode... well, maybe. It can be explained by the fact that what was melting the ice caps was a rapid warming of the glacial climate by mid-level warm oceanic water flows to the poles. When the polar began to melt in earnest, the runoff of cold fresh water into polar seas slowed and almost stopped those warm flows. After that initial runoff, the warm currents resumed and the ice caps were doomed. No comets, impacts, nor any other exotic event is required by way of explanation. No cooling is needed, just a weakening of an ocean current, an oscillation in the warming process caused by the warming itself. Global warming -- ya gotta love it. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Impact Origin of Carolina Bays Argued For at 2007AGU Meeting Dear Friends, Apparently, there is going to be some interesting papers at the 2007 Joint Assembly of the American Geophysical Union as there will be a session presenting evidence for an impact having occurred during Younger-Dyras times at the end of the last Ice Age. Below are links to representative abstracts: 1. Evidence for an Extraterrestrial Impact Event 12,900 years ago
[meteorite-list] THE SO-CALLED ALERT
Hi, I got a so-called Alert several days ago when I posted a reply to Martin Altmann's query about costs of space telescopes versus weapon systems; supposedly it was from Martin's ISP, except that it wasn't. On dissecting the message I found a substantial block of embedded data which did not show up as text nor anything else you would find in a message. I destroyed that message immediately and ran scans. I've just burned off all your messages mentioning it since some people have included or copied all or part of the alert message in their mail to the List I would recommend on-arrival deletion of any such messages, not by deleting in your email program, which only flags it as assigned to the Deleted folder and leaves the message intact, but by using Shift+Delete which will erase it from disc (on a PC) and a scan. I believe that the material in the message had likely been disabled before I got, but I don't trust that it was. Sterling K. Webb - __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] PLESSITIC OCTAHEDRITE IRON NICKEL METEORITE?
Hi, Google starchasers meteorites, and the first hits are this List's Archives of attempts to get eBay to dump this nut, but apprently it's impossible to shut this goon down. Here's his Rocks website: http://www.rocksmuseumonline.com/ where you too can buy a river cobble from Outer Space, or Slag from the Far Side of Saturn... Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: David Kitt Deyarmin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 11:08 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] PLESSITIC OCTAHEDRITE IRON NICKEL METEORITE? What do you guy's think about this? http://cgi.ebay.com/PLESSITIC-OCTAHEDRITE-IRON-NICKEL-METEORITE-652-GRAMS_W0QQitemZ190138874818QQihZ009QQcategoryZ3239QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Here is a completed auction for a slice: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=190152763680indexURL=0photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] More articles on Peruvian Event and PossiblePicture
Hi, What's fascinating to me is that what we have at this point is (maybe) just one notch above the kind of accounts we find in folklore and ancient myth: a roaring glowing object falls from the celestrial seat and smashes into the earth, foul vapors issue forth and the people are sickened, cows miscarry, a boiling miasma is seen in the hellish pit, evil influences are emitted (radiation), and so forth. The usual, more or less fitted to the local cultural conceptions. Only the UFO's are missing. And we are no more able, on the basis of the data presented so far, to judge this event than we are able to judge the likelihood of a real event behind the stories found in ancient annals, legends, and myths (a topic that has recently come up on this List). I do note, in the NYTimes photos, evidence that some sections of the rim are upturned or tilted, evidence of a mildly explosive event below the surface. Note also that the crater is only 600 yards from the very large Lake Titacata and the water in the crater is likely ground water that flowed in shortly after formation. Lake Titacata's level has been dropping for a long time (you can see elevated ancient shorelines on the hills around it). The initial bubbling reported could be explained as turbulance from water that came flooding in from an underground stream or source. Likewise, the reported odors could be from mineral salts (the accumulation of which in soils of the irrigated platform agriculture of the ancient civilization that was once quite extensive in the area doomed it). Purely ad hoc hypotheses put forward in case this turns out to be the real deal... I will have to say that the crater looks more like a large impact pit than a crater. The 3:1 width/depth ratio is characteristic of very loose materials (like soil and sand) in mild impacts. Harder target materials and higher velocities produce deeper transient craters that then slump and rebound to shallower depths. The material seen in the photos is good old Altiplano dirt and an occasional flat rock. Despite its size, the crater looks like a low-energy event, and not a thermal event, but the result of a large and slow (for a cosmic body) impactor. Simple holes in the dirt are called impact pits; one is described here: http://home.wanadoo.nl/marco.langbroek/ellemeng.html A witness saw a 970 gram weight fragment of the meteorite, measuring approximately 10 centimeters in diameter, impact in a meadow: this fragment generated a half meter deep impact pit. The diameter of the pit is not given, but would (or should) be 1 meter or more. The fragment was intact. Scaling that event up to the size of the reputed Peruvian pit, also in dirt) you get an 0.8 to 1.0 meter meteorite (which would weigh about 1.0 to 1.3 tons, by the way) sitting there, or one helluva lot of fragments. Do you see it (or them) in the photos? The Jilin main mass of 1.77 tons produced an impact pit 6 meters deep, only slightly bigger than this pit. The one-ton Sterlintamak crater of 1990 is roughly the same size as the Peruvian Pit. Hard to miss a one-ton meteorite, I would think. Interestingly, the other vital datum -- the WIDTH of the impact pit -- is seemingly never reported, I discover after hours of Googling. It is never present in either historic accounts nor contemporaneous ones, even by scientists, or even accounts of actual finds made by otherwise wise, wonderful and virtuous members of this List. Both numbers matter, guys. Useful fundamental data going to waste. Here's an interesting article of fundamental research on impact carried out in a high-tech sandbox: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:7oX3prQ_bsAJ:www.nature.com/physics/highlights/6938-1.html+impact+pit+meteoritehl=enct=clnkcd=31gl=us Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 9:10 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] More articles on Peruvian Event and PossiblePicture Some recent articles of interest about the Peruvian explosion. 1. Meteorite causes a stir in Peru: The explosion near Carancas frightened and awed residents and (they say) made them sick. Los Angeles Times, September 21, 2007 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-meteor21sep21,1,5605341.story?coll=la-headlines-world This article has some detail about local reaction, including hopes to bring in tourists. 2. In Peru, a Crater and Questions By Mike Nizza and Mike Nizza New york Times bloggers, who visited the crater, September 20, 2007, http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/20/in-peru-a-crater-and-questions/index.html?hp%20 3. Peruvian Meteorite Has Sci Fi Twist By Bill Christensen, Space.com, September 19, 2007 http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/070919_technovel_peru_meteorite.html 4. Space object or meteorite that fell in Peru causes
[meteorite-list] COMPOSITION OF PERUVIAN METEORITE
An analysis of fragments of the Peruvian meteorite carried out by the Universidad Mayor de San Andres, La Paz, Bolivia, Faculty of Geological Sciences, by Mario Blanco Cazas, a downloadable .pdf document. It's in Spanish. There are graphs and charts of elemental abundances, and analysis by Xray fluoresence. Here's some samples of the text with pitiful translations: http://fcpn.umsa.bo/fcpn/app?service=external/PublicationDownloadsp=227 La muestra se presenta en estado de polvo y fragmentos pequeños. De modo general el color es gris verdoso de aspecto granular, algunos fragmentos, que alcanzan un tamaño máximo de 0.5 cm,, son de aspecto totalmente metálico. La muestra tiene una susceptibilidad magnética muy alta. The sample presents in a state of dust and small fragments. In a general way the color is a greenish gray of a granular aspect, some fragments, which reach a maximum size of 0.5 cm, have completely the aspect of metal. The sample has a very high magnetic susceptibility. No es compatible con rocas que normalmente se encuentranen la superficie de la Tierra. Estas relaciones podría eventualmente corresponder a materiales que se encontrarían mucho más al interior de la tierra, es decir podría esperarse en materiales del Manto. Por tanto, es posible suponer que la muestra analizada, contenía minerales de tipo ULTRABÁSICO o BASICO. It is not compatible with rocks that normally are on the surface of the Earth. These relations it might correspond possibly to materials that would be much more to the interior of the Earth, that is to say it might be found in materials of Cloak (the Mantle). Therefore, it is possible to suppose that the analyzed sample, it was containing minerals of the type ULTRABASIC or BASIC. [By Xray diffraction, they give:] MINERALES IDENTIFICADOS: CUARZO SiO2 (46-1045)* FOSTERITA FERRICA (Mg,Fe)2 SiO3 (31-795)* TROILITA - 2H (FeS) (37-477)* FERROSILITA (Fe,Mg) SiO3 (31-634)* [Do we even need a translation? Find much troilite in your back yard?] ELEMENTOS DETECTADOS (ESTIMACIÓN DE CONTENIDOS) MAYORITARIOS (2%): Fe, Si, Ca, Ni, Mg. MINORITARIOS (0.1~ 2%): K, Al, Mn, P, Ti, Co. TRAZAS (0.1%): Ir, Zn, Na. ELEMENTS DETECTED (ESTIMATION OF CONTENTS) MAJORITY ( 2 %): Fe, Si, Ca, Ni, Mg. MINORITY (0.1 ~ 2 %): K, Al, Mn, P, Ti, Co. TRACES (0.1 %): Ir, Zn, Na. [Find much Iridium in your back yard?] La presencia de CUARZO, entre los minerales identificados, hace pensar que se debe a una CONTAMINACIÓN de la muestra en el momento del impacto. The presence of Quartz among the mineral identifications makes us think it is owing to the terrestrial contamination of the sample at the moment of impact. Thanks to Piper Hollier, who passed me this link. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] CARANCAS METEORITE VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nGOz3yy3Fs Shows the crater. Shows the crater fuming at one margin. Shows rooves just covered with many little rocks. Shows the little flat rocks. This one has a really painful sound track, lots of photo manipulation, but one good shot of the little flat rocks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAoizLPfvik Pretty sure the little flat rocks are local stone blasted out of the crater/pit Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] YOUNGER DRYAS IMPACT THEORY -- ANOTHER PRESS RELEASE
This is another press release for the soon-to-appear paper from the group that proposes a late Holocene impact over North America 12,900 years ago. Even though it's only a press release, it does clear up one detail, though. As has been pointed out on the List by those following the issue, the black mat layer took a long time to deposit, hence could hardly be itself a marker of an impact, which is a sudden event. Well, this press release makes clear that the various ET markers of an event were all found UNDER the black mat layer. That, at least, makes more sense. Sterling K. Webb Full text follows: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070924172959.htm Extraterrestrial Impact Likely Source Of Sudden Ice Age Extinctions At the end of the Pleistocene era, woolly mammoths roamed North America along with a cast of fantastic creatures -- giant sloths, saber-toothed cats, camels, lions, tapirs and the incredible teratorn, a condor with a 16-foot wingspan. About 12,900 years ago, these megafauna disappeared from the fossil record, as did evidence of human remains. The cause of the mass extinction and the human migration is a mystery. Now a team of scientists, including Brown University planetary geologist Peter Schultz, provides evidence that an asteroid impact likely caused the sudden climate changes that killed off the mammoths and other majestic beasts of prehistory. In the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the international team lays out its theory that the mass extinctions in North America were caused by one or more extraterrestrial objects -- comets or meteorites -- that exploded over the Earth or slammed into it, triggering catastrophic climate change. The scientists believe that evidence for these extraterrestrial impacts is hidden in a dark layer of dirt sometimes called a black mat. Found in more than 50 sites around North America, this puzzling slice of geological history is a mere three centimeters deep and filled with carbon, which lends the layer its dark color. This black mat has been found in archaeological digs in Canada and California, Arizona and South Carolina -- even in a research site in Belgium. The formation of this layer dates back 12,900 years and coincides with the abrupt cooling of the Younger Dryas period, sometimes called the Big Freeze. This coincidence intrigued the researchers, led by Richard Firestone of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, who thought that the black mat might be related to the mass extinctions. So the researchers studied black mat sediment samples from 10 archaeological sites dating back to the Clovis people, the first human inhabitants of the New World. Researchers conducted geochemical analysis of the samples to determine their makeup and also ran carbon dating tests to determine the age of the samples. Directly beneath the black mat, researchers found high concentrations of magnetic grains containing iridium, charcoal, soot, carbon spherules, glass-like carbon containing nanodiamonds and fullerenes packed with extraterrestrial helium --- all of which are evidence for an extraterrestrial impact and the raging wildfires that might have followed. Schultz, professor of geological sciences at Brown and an impact specialist, said the most provocative evidence for an extraterrestrial impact was the discovery of nanodiamonds, microscopic bits of diamond formed only from the kind of intense pressure you'd get from a comet or meteorite slamming into the Earth. We don't have a smoking gun for our theory, but we sure have a lot of shell casings, Schultz said. Taken together, the markers found in the samples offer intriguing evidence that North America had a major impact event about 12,900 years ago. Schultz admits that there is little decisive evidence about the actual details about the impact and its effects. Scientists suspect that a carbon-rich asteroid or comets were the culprits. The objects would have exploded over North America or slammed into it, or both, shattering and melting ice sheets, sparking extreme wildfires, and fueling hurricane-force winds -- all of which could have contributed to changes in climate that led to the cooling of the Younger Dryas period. Our theory isn't a slam dunk, Schultz said. We need to study a lot more sediments to get a lot more evidence. But what is sobering about this theory of ours is that this impact would be so recent. Not so long ago, something may have fallen from the sky and profoundly changed our climate and our culture. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Another news piece on Holocene Start impacts
of, the Earth's magnetic field, greatly enhanced radiation exposure, sudden dimming of sunlight, abrupt climate shifts, a short nasty and brutal ice age, all kinds of bad things -- it's a long list. This why I'd like to get straightened out whether this collection of evidence is under the mats or distributed through it. The evidence itself could point to either event, but if it's an impact, it should be under the mats, not scattered through 100, 500, or 1000 years of mat accumulation, whereas an infall of dust accumulating in the mat could take place over a variously prolonged time. Everything they claim to have found as proof of the high pressure and temperature of an impact could be the products of a much more energetic event: a supernova. There was a long discussion of this on the List in Sept.-Oct of 2005, with lots of back and forth. Probably still in the Archives. There are a lot of dark (dust) globules in the Galaxy, all produced by supernovae. We tend to dismiss them because we live in a little dust-free zone called the Local Bubble which was, surprise! created by a recent supernova that blew the then-existing dust out. A lot like urban renewal... The moving globs represent a major hazard nobody seems to worry about. Yes, what we need: one more thing to worry about... Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:28 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Another news piece on Holocene Start impacts Hi Sterling, list - http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-09/nau-rts092407.php This time the black mats are accumulators for the impact debris. I also want to remind everyone here that some of the First peoples accounts of these impacts were given in my own book Man and Impact in the Americas. It is nice to see field data confirm one's analysis of traditions. PS - while looking at spherules, I found that some of the KT layers were nicely exposed and easy to sample. I still think that there is going to be a market for these impactite samples, but I how they will be packaged is still not clear. good hunting, E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Another news piece on Holocene Start impacts
Hi, The problem is that nobody thinks comets were recently formed. Instead, they are seen as preserving an ancient primordial composition, from long enough ago that supernova isotopes would have long decayed away, no matter how long-lived. A dust density high enough to coat comets with enough of these isotopes to matter would require an incredibly dense glob beyond anything possible. No, dust is basically sneaky. In the long history of arguing about comets and the likelihood of them being perturbed into the inner solar system, few if any of those who propose mechanisms have mentioned the dark globules of dust, because the largest of them, the Giant Molecular Clouds, can mass 1,000,000 solar masses, and the little globs I'm talking about could easily mass 0.01 to 1.0 solar masses and be thousands of AU wide. Think that would perturb a few comets? Many of them have orbital velocities at distance of mere centimeters per second. Dust drag alone could change their orbits. Dust could be the most likely perturbing mechanism; we don't know. Just like the Dustbowl days of the Depression, the solar system has dust storms. In fact, we're having one right now: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/dust_storm_030814.html Observations of dust globs are virtually impossible (they're dark). All we can say about dust between the stars is a) it's there, and b) it's lumpy in its distribution. Lumpy means there will be globs. There is no 10Be in the Sun; it's not a supernova. A very small number of the 2000 isotopes are only produced in supernovae -- nothing else can do it. Such isotopes are called cosmogenic, meaning they're not local boys, not from the Earth, not from the present solar system. They are these: 41Ca, 36Cl, 26Al, 60Fe, and 10Be. Radioactive, they decay away quickly. 10Be can be formed by cosmic rays in theory. Takes a lot, though. If you find ANY of these isotopes lying around, you can be sure they are recent, that they are from a supernova, and if I were you, I would take a quick look over my shoulder, so to speak. The particles are very tiny, would remain suspended in the upper atmosphere for decades or maybe longer, and reflect a measurable percentage of light away. Expect a 5 to 7 degree C. drop for every 1% of sunlight lost. (And of course, there's argument about the relationship between sunlight and Earth temperature, too. Maybe only 3 deg. So, lose 10% of your light, drop 30 degrees? Not a happy notion.) Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another news piece on Holocene Start impacts Hi Sterling - As always, thoughtful comment. My first guess - Your supernova elements (10Be etc.) were likely incorporated into the comet. My next guess - specifically, Comet Encke. My next guess - Comet Encke fractioned while performing a plane change near the Sun shortly before 10,900 BCE. An alternativve guess - perhaps that 10Be was produced by impact of a comet fragment with our Sun. I seem to remember a link of 10Be with ozone, but since my stroke... __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] DAWN LAUNCH VIDEO
The NASA video of the Dawn launch is available at YouTube. 10 minutes in length. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncLLVj1qMC8 The video recut with inspirational music is also to be found on YouTube, of course: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtwUdKgZqXs Not bad. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carnacas smoke-trail photos
gram of meteorite, more than enough for a good plasma explosion of the whole object! Even at a five ton object, it's still enough for the vaporizing explosion. This implies that only spalled product will be found. No massive remnant would remain. This seismic estimate found make Carancas five times more energetic than Sterlitamak. The size of the Carancas crater implies roughly three tons of TNT, in a pretty good agreement of the five ton seismic figure. To throw a 40 kg chunk 100 meters is like what a catapult does and requires only a few thousand joules (depending on how high you want to loft it), and if that seismic measurement is reliable, there were plenty of joules to go around! Did anyone walk out a distance greater than 100 meters to see what sizes of chunk would be found at greater distances? Even a crude notion of distribution would give a magnitude estimate of the explosion. We cannot approximate mass from the force of the crater-forming explosion; only the total energy involved. Identical energies can be achieved by large slow objects and small fast objects. However, the majority of the indicators is that this was a high energy event, more than enough to have completely vaporized the impactor (exceot for the spalls). From this most recent email of Mike's and the analysis above, I would estimate this impactor to be a 1.5 to 2.0 metric ton object still in hypersonic flight (Mach 5-7). The indication is that there isn't any big one IN the crater. Now, if it HAD been an iron... Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 5:54 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Carnacas smoke-trail photos I was lucky enough to learn that teenager was able to take a photo of the Carancas meteorite smoketrail, and I purchased the right to copy and use that photo. I will post this when I get home, and it belongs to me, please do not use it without my permission. I gave him enough to buy a new camera and take 1000 more photos. He saw the fall, grabbed his camera, snapped a photo of the corkscrew smoketrail, then went to the fall site some 5 miles away. The other photos were very poor, so I did not use them, but they showed the crater filling with water, and many chunks of meteorite in the crater walls, as well as incredible amounts of meteorite powder. He also had a photo from a distance of more than 2 kilometers where you could see a smokecloud which looked like a small mushroom cloud which he confirmed was the steam coming from the crater. That photo was visible, but too poor for me to use as I could not copy it and see the detail. Is it indeed possible that a mass of say 3-7 tons could cause such intense heat on impact? We think that the compression of the soil, in an instant to many meteors deep could also cause intense heating. Every person we interviewed decribed boiling water, lots of steam, and horrible sulfer type smell. The media of course, hyped the crap to levels that were bordering on insane. Michael Farmer __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carnacas smoke-trail photos
The name of the village closest to the crater site is CARANCAS, not Carnacas. Under the naming convention, the nearest named human settlement would end up as the name of the meteorite when all the dust settles, no? Let's all practice: CA - RAN - CAS. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Michael L Blood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carnacas smoke-trail photos Perhaps I am dumber than a bag of hammers, but I am confused Are Carnacas and Titicaca two separate falls Or one in the same? Is anyone else confused on this issue? Michael on 10/2/07 5:59 PM, Michael Farmer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, it is a hell of a crater, at least 13 meters in diameter, more than one meter of uplift, looks identical to Meteor Crater to me, on a much smaller scale. There in fact does seem to be shocked material at the crater, I found only inside and just outside the crater, large pieces of compacted sandstone, yet there is no sandstone there, it seems to have solidified on the impact, everything else is more like soft mud. Large, and I mean larger pieces of sod, weighing at least 40 or 50 kilograms were thrown more than 50-100 meters, and smaller dirt clod debris thrown up to 15o meters in all directions. This is a serious impact, I mean you can call it what you want, but with the uplift, the incredible debris field thrown to all sides, the huge size, and volume of the crater itself, certainly leads me to believe that the mass weighed many tons and is obviously in the hole under some meters of fallback debris. The locals report mushroom cloud lingered for more than a hour. As far as more pieces, this meterite came in over lake Titikaka, and if you have never seen this lake, it is HUGE! I would guess that as fragil as the meteorite is, that tons of debris fell off but would most likely have all fallen into the lake, or perhaps some on the mountains just inside of Bolivia. It is not populated there, and I assume from talking to most witnesses, that the large main mass, which was a massive ball of fire much larger and brighter than the Sun, caught everyones attention pretty well, and would be so bright that smaller pieces would be drowned out by the intensity of the main mass. That is what I think happened, surely many more pieces broke off but from where the main mass hit, back down the flightpath is nothing but swamps and high mountains for about 10 miles, then 15 miles of lake. Perfect for most material to be lost. Michael Farmer --- Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What remains to be determined is if this is actually a crater, or just a big splash. In the first case, some shocked material should show up, and I think it's likely that nothing is left in the bottom. If there really is a big meteorite at the bottom, then this probably isn't a crater in the usual sense (that is, produced by a large energy release as the parent body explodes/vaporizes). I don't believe I've seen anything credible to suggest that the water was actually boiling or steaming. It doesn't take much energy to make a hole this size in soft ground- probably around 100 kg TNT equivalent. And that's not enough to heat up that much water very much. So I expect that any apparent bubbling was nothing more than an effect of ground water filling in the new hole. If the recovered material is shocked fragments, it may be structurally quite different from the parent body. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carnacas smoke-trail photos On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:54:57 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: Is it indeed possible that a mass of say 3-7 tons could cause such intense heat on impact? We think that the compression of the soil, in an instant to many meteors deep could also cause intense heating. Every person we interviewed decribed boiling water, lots of steam, and horrible sulfer type smell. The What I wonder is if maybe the pressure/heat could have caused dissolved gases to bubble out from the water? So it might not have been at a boiling temperature, but still bubbling/steaming? Too bad we don't have samples of the groundwater and soil from the area to see if there is anything weird/extensively poluted about it. Also odd, of course, is a fraglie, porus stone as you describe surviving to the ground big enough and fast enough to make the crater. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite
Re: [meteorite-list] Carnacas smoke-trail photos
Chris -- The seismic measurement is of a 20-21 GJ event. The Russian formulas for scaling crater energy, developed from their work with the various sizes of the Sikhote-Alin craters, would make it about 18 GJ. The ground at Carancas is not merely wet soil, it is wet rocky soil, a different kettle of resistance. You can see the strata in the walls of the crater. You specify a 5 GJ event, but your 10 ton and 1500 m/s example would have 11.25 GJ, not the 5 GJ you specifiy. Even a 5 GJ event would be 500 joules per gram of meteorite when it only takes 100 joules per gram to powder even harder terrestrial rock. The actual energy of the 10 ton, 1500 m/s example would be 1125 joules per gram of meteorite, very close to the energy required to completely melt ten tons of rock. Of course, that's assuming all the energy is released within the impactor and so, is only true for the leading portion of the impactor. As the crater evolves, it takes its share of the energy away. The heat of vaporization for most earthly rocks is around 18,000 joules per gram of rock. That's the figure used to calculate vaporization for underground bomb blasts. Silica is quite tough; it takes 22,000 joules per gram. Meteoritic material with a lot of dissolved iron would also be hard to vaporize, but after much Googling I can't find a value, so I will be scientific and assume it's similar to the terrestrial average. (Anybody know the actual figure?) To be vaporized by a 21-22 GJ impact, a one ton impactor would need ~6500 m/s impact velocity. In fact, for any rock impactor to be vaporized, it needs to convert 18,000 joules of KE to heat for each gram, so roughly 6000 m/s is the speed needed to vaporize any rock on impact, regardless of its size. That's a high velocity to get all the way to the surface. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 9:49 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carnacas smoke-trail photos Hi Michael- As a physicist (and not on the scene), my instinct is simply to perform some simple calculations to get some sense of what the various possibilities are. Assuming wet soil, which seems like what the crater was formed in, it requires about 5 GJ (~1 ton TNT) to produce a crater that size. That might reasonably be created by a 2 meter diameter, 10 ton stone impacting at 1.5 km/s. Under those conditions, the impactor would be largely converted to dust, but there would be little vaporization. A lot of water could be vaporized, which would explain the cloud that was seen, but there wouldn't be enough residual heat to boil water that refilled the crater, or even make it hot. Of course, it could have been a smaller object falling faster, or even a rather large object (~5 meter diameter) falling at a 200 m/s terminal velocity. The crater type would range from an explosive impact crater to a simple excavated hole. Distinguishing between these extremes will require getting soil samples from around the crater extending at least a few hundred meters, as well as collecting detailed measurements of the crater to determine its precise shape. Unfortunately, the conditions don't seem ideal for conducting this kind of research. Personally, I wouldn't be optimistic about finding any large body in the crater, unless the actual impact was subsonic. One question involving the fireball: did the impact occur simultaneously with the end of the fireball (which would imply a hypersonic impact of a small body), or did the impact occur a minute or more after the fireworks (which would suggest a low speed impact by a larger body)? Anyway, keep up the good work, and collect whatever data you can. I hope that the fireball was caught on a DoD satellite, and that the light curve will be released. That would greatly assist in analyzing the nature of the parent body. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carnacas smoke-trail photos Chris, it is a hell of a crater, at least 13 meters in diameter, more than one meter of uplift, looks identical to Meteor Crater to me, on a much smaller scale. There in fact does seem to be shocked material at the crater, I found only inside and just outside the crater, large pieces of compacted sandstone, yet there is no sandstone there, it seems to have solidified on the impact, everything else is more like soft mud. Large, and I mean larger pieces of sod, weighing at least 40 or 50 kilograms were thrown more than 50-100 meters, and smaller dirt clod debris thrown up to 15o meters in all directions
Re: [meteorite-list] Peru's Geological Institute: Crater WhereMeteorite Landed is to Disappear in 2 Months
Apparently Director Nuñez del Prado does not believe in PUMPS. It would seem that, in Peru, geologists are not familiar with digging holes. (How do they mine there without digging holes?) They will retrieve the meteorite without any attempt to extract the water from the crater. They will use scuba divers? Well, in a few months time, the crater will be gone, everybody will stop pestering them, and the Geological, Mining and Metallurgical Institute can go back to its siesta! Or perhaps, he too is a victim of journalistic understanding? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 12:56 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Peru's Geological Institute: Crater WhereMeteorite Landed is to Disappear in 2 Months http://www.livinginperu.com/news-4827-environmentnature-perus-geological-institute-crater-where-meteorite-landed-is-disappear-2-months (LIP-ir) -- Peru's Geological, Mining and Metallurgical Institute (INGEMMET) announced today that the crater left by the meteorite that landed in a small town in Puno, Peru would disappear in two or three months. Experts estiamted that the crater would be gone within this time because of the accumulation of dirt and water in the hole itself. They stated that the accumulation would be due to the rainy season this region of Peru is experiencing. Director of Geology for Peru´s INGEMMET, Hernando Nuñez del Prado, stated that the roof which was to be built could keep the crater safe from the intense rain. He stated that the rain would increase the river's activity, thus causing it to directly affect the crater. There will be no evidence that a meteorite had landed there, said Nuñez del Prado. The specialist said he was sorry because he knew that locals wanted the crater to be a tourist attraction. Nuñez del Prado requested that no unauthorized person get close to the area where the meteorite had landed. He explained that the next two months should be dedicated to a serious investigation and a scientific study of the area. After thesestudies are done, the specialist stated that scientists would search for and retrieve the meteorite which is several meters below the earth. In addition, he explained that an attempt to extract the water from the crater would not be made because it would be impossible. He stated that the earth was saturated with water and the crater would always be full. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Carancas or Titicaca? More data and a thin section of the stone
Hi, Jeff, List I used the word convention in the sense that it is conventional to do so, as most meteorites carry the name of a human settlement of some kind. Technically, it's the nearest place name that is unambiguously locatable that is required. http://www.meteoriticalsociety.org/bulletin/nc-guidelines.htm 3.1 Geographic features. A new meteorite shall be named after a nearby geographical locality. Every effort should be made to avoid unnecessary duplication or ambiguity, and to select a permanent feature such as a town, village, river, bay, cape, mountain or island which appears on widely used maps and is sufficiently close to the recovery site to convey meaningful locality information. In sparsely populated areas with few place names, less permanent features such as ranches or stations or, in extreme cases, local unofficial names of distinctive quality may be used, provided the latitude and longitude of the recovery site are well determined. The names of large geographic features such as continents, countries, provinces, states, and large counties should be avoided if names that are more specific are available, except as specified in §3.3 and §3.4. In general, the selected feature should be the closest such feature to the site of the recovery. If, for example, the name of the nearest town is already used, the meteorite should not be named for the next nearest town. In such a case, a different geographic feature (e.g., a stream) should be selected, if available (if not, §3.3 applies). However, the village of Carancas is such a feature and appears to be much closer to the crater than Lake Titicaca. Randall Gregory says the crater is virtually on the banks of the Lake, but it doesn't look that way on these maps. Maps of the locale can be found at this site: http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1321category=Science The site also contains the full text of the INGEMMET initial report (but NOT all the pictures) which contains interesting data. There is an interview with Jose Machero, one of the authors of the INGEMMET report (in which he says that the water table there is one meter below grade). The full INGEMMET report, with more thin section photos than the above reference, including polarized views, can also be found at: http://www.ingemmet.gob.pe/ Go over to the right and click on the Carancas link. Some quotes from that report: Impact location Country Peru Region Puno ProvinceChucuito District Desaguadero CommunityCarancas Coordinates Lat: 16°39'52S Long: 69°02'38W Elev: 3 824 m a.s.l. General description of the phenomenon (Only anecdotic information based upon witnesses' declarations) Apparent displacement azimuth of the object: towards N030°E. The object was observed since it was at about 1 000 m from the earth surface. The object presented a strongly luminous head (white light) and a white smoky queue. No other objects were observed to fall after the main body. There was a strong explosion that was felt up to Desaguadero city 20 km from the impact site. Some window glasses of the Local Health Center (at 1 km from the site) were broken. The explosion sound lasts about 15 minutes (!) After the impact, boiling water was seen in the crater, and a smoke column was formed that lasts for several minutes. A sulfurous smell was reported there. General description of effects on ground The impact created a crater when collided with the soft ground (reddish brown soil). The crater is composed by a hole and an ejecta rim. The central hole became a pond, by infill with groundwater that crops out after the impact (figure 2). The following table gives the diameters and other measures of the geoform. N to S -- Pond 7.4 m -- Rim 13.3 m E to W -- Pond 7.8 m -- Rim 13.8 m The maximum rim height was 1 m above the original soil level, and was seen in the northern border. The photo of figure 2 is looking northward. Dispersal ejecta made by brown soil with grey patina (meteorite powder), up to 5 cm in diameter were found at 200 m from the impact point. Three days after the fall, water in the pond was 1 m below the original soil level. It presented turbid brown aspect, with pH = 7.8, temperature 17.9°C, conductivity 4000 milisiems, and total suspended solids 2000 ppm. (Measurements by Prof. Mario Soto, Univ. of Altiplano, Puno). Composition Thin and polished sections were prepared for petro-mineralogic determinations under optical microscope. The results revealed chondritic texture and a mineral composition including: Pyroxene 140% Olivine 20% Feldspar10% Pyroxene 210% Opaque minerals total about 20% and include: Kamacite 15% Troilite 5% Cromite traces Native Cu traces Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Jeff Grossman
[meteorite-list] News and Views in Peru
Hi, All, Beyond the views of Randall Richard Daniels Gregory on Mike Farmer, it seems that others in Peru are not happy with him. Taking no sides, just the messenger, folks. Here's a Peruvian news article: http://www.larepublica.com.pe/content/view/181193/30/ Here's a cleaned up machine translation: --- [Headline] They try to deal in pieces of the fallen meteorite [Subhead] A group of Americans came with this purpose to Carancas. The president of the Geophysical Institute of Peru (IGP), Ronald Woodman, denounced the group of Americans directed by Michael Farmer (famous searcher of meteors in the world) that tries to deal in remains of the meteorite that fell [down] in the locality of Carancas in the middle of the past September. They sneak in [literally, glide] to initiate the excavations to extract the remains at the border with Bolivia, since the meteorite fell [down] within one kilometer of the border with this country, Woodman declared. It [is] recounted that the group of five North Americans have come to the place with the support of the Police and that seemingly the settlers [villagers] negotiated with these merchants of meteorites. Ronald Woodman said that the cazameteoritos would be taking advantage of the ignorance of the settlers on the real value of the objects. There are not many in the world; they are valuable pieces for museums and collectors, as noted below. The facts: TRAFFIC. The citizen Michael Farmer sold a lunar fragment of approximately 1 kg found near to Agadir (Morocco) for 1.5 million dollars --- It would appear that entering the country from Bolivia, one mile away, with an international airport in nearby LaPaz, is inherently suspicious to some Peruvians. There is an implication (but no direct statement) that trafficing in meteorites is a shady quasi-legal affair, as there is much emphasis on the fact that Mike buys and sells them. I wish I knew what cazameteoritos means but the online translator won't translate it (nor the word caza either). Meteorite traders? Meteorite peddlers? Meteorite Con-men? Sterling K. Webb --- __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites-- they give you wings
Gaos and Gams! Steve's Specialties! Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 4:06 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites-- they give you wings http://www.chicagometeorites.net/id44.html __ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] News and Views in Peru
Hi, Dirk, Paco, List Thanks for pinning that down. Francisco wrote: But this articles sounds really offensive, with bad intention, in Spanish. Then English translation seems softer. I knew the article was critical, but tone is harder to catch, especially with an online translator in a language where your knowledge is sketchy (like mine of Spanish). I think that, in Mike's case, Meteorite Chaser is closer to the mark! A lot of hunters sit and wait, something he seems to hardly get a chance to do. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 3:40 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] News and Views in Peru Sterling and All, Caza- chasers, hunters. Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wish I knew what cazameteoritos means but the online translator won't translate it (nor the word caza either). Meteorite traders? Meteorite peddlers? Meteorite Con-men? Sterling K. Webb --- __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New Peru article
Hi, The only good news here is that the notorious meteoritotrafficantes americanos have hopefully slipped across the bandit border into Boliva. police had searched for the meteorite hunters at their hotel but were unable to catch them because they had left. I was thinking it was getting near the time to get out of Dodge; wasn't everybody? Mike, get out of there. It will be interesting to watch the local scientific authorities remove the massive multi-ton meteorite from the muddy pit, from under five meters of water, without draining it, as they said they would, before the crater vanishes in a few months (as they also said it would). Just kidding. Only problem is, after kicking numbers and reports around for a day or two, I don't think that there's anything under that mud but more mud. According to the INGEMMET report, the windows of a dwelling over 1000 meters away from the crater were broken and blown out by the impact. I believe that is diagnostic of a hypersonic impact (greater than 340 m/s). Using the figure for average terrestrial rock, it only takes about 100 joules per gram to powder it to dust. At the speed of sound, each gram of the meteoroid has 60 joules of kinetic energy; at Mach 1.3 (450 m/s), it has 100 joules per gram. At 1000 m/s (or about Mach 3), it has over 500 joules per gram. Mike Farmer said, The meteorite is very fragile, very porous... I doubt very much that it would take 100 joules (granite takes 100 joules) to be dusted. Mike also mentioned locally taken photos that showed incredible amounts of meteorite powder. And lastly, it seems from those photos Mike saw (and the photgrapher's story) that the fireball's ablative smoke trail was visible pretty much all the way to the crater location and the mushroom cloud. That would mean that the object was in ablative flight all the way to the ground. (It's worthwhile to point out that ablation requires more than merely hypersonic speeds.) Then there's Dr. Daniels a.k.a. Gregory's report of the tiny dust-like particles he meteoritotrafficanted from a little old lady -- that's evidence that the crushing strength of the material was exceeded, and because it was outside the crater, must have come from the most protected part of the impactor: its backside. That meteorite is dust. No matter what it massed, there's nothing in that mudpit. And it's OK with me if I'm wrong and somebody winches a ton or two of meteorite out of the mud; it would be a great day. But... don't hold your breath. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 10:59 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] New Peru article http://www.livinginperu.com/news-4832-environmentnature-meteorite-crater-guarded-perus-police-after-u-s-citizens-attempt-traffick-it Latest News in Peru / Archive Environment/Nature | 3 October, 2007 [ 16:00 ] Meteorite Crater Guarded by Peru's Police after U.S. Citizens Attempt to Traffick it (LIP-ir) -- Peru's official government news agency reported yesterday that the crater where a meteorite fell in Puno, Peru was being guarded by 20 of Peru's National Police officers. Chief of the police station, Major Victor Anaya stated that the officers had been placed near the meteorite landing site to keep a group of U.S. citizens from trafficking pieces of the meteorite. On Monday October 1, Ronald Woodman, the president of Peru's Geophysics Institute (IGP) claimed that a group of U.S. citizens, led by Michael Farmer, were attempting to traffick pieces of the meteorite. Woodman stated that Farmer was a known meteorite hunter that searched for meteorites around the world and sold them to collectors. He stated, They planned to start digging today and take them out of the country. This is worth money, and they are taking them to sell them not to study them. The Geophysics president expressed his discontent with respect to the team led by Farmer. He stated that they were taking advantage of the townspeoples ignorance, stating that the meteorite was worth much more than what they were paying. Anaya reported that police had searched for the meteorite hunters at their hotel but were unable to catch them because they had left. He explained that the U.S. citizens had urged the townspeople to collect samples, causing some of them to attempt to drain the water from the crater __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New Peru article
Hi, Doug, Much has been made of the fact this is wet soil. Yes, it has a high water table and underground streams and so forth. But this is high mountain plains (Altiplano), an ancient limestone intermountain basin. The soil is rocky. Several strata of rock are visible in the crater walls. It's not a cushion. The crater depth is reported as just over 4 meters (as estimated by poling), but it was already full of water when the first local witnesses arrived, so that's an uncertain datum. I'd have to stand by my very much earlier post on the energy requirements of meteorite destruction and the velocities of that energy: Energy to powder a hard meteorite = 100 joules per gram = 450 m/s. Energy to melt a rock meteorite = 1,200 joules per gram = 1500 m/s. Energy to vaporize a meteorite = 18,000 to 25,000 joules per gram = 6000 m/s. You're absolutely right that the crater takes up the energy from the impactor. In modeling large events, it seems that the imapctor and the target share it almost evenly. But in small events, it doesn't transfer as well and the impactor hogs most of it. The Carancas crater is from an impact equal to perhaps 3 +/- 2 tons of TNT. The seismograph says five tons TNT but includes the atmospheric boom as well, so is exaggerated. The crater is characteristic of a 1 to 2 ton TNT impact. But, let me bury five or ten 50-lb cases of dynamite and I'll make you a bigger crater than that. I would rate the crater as getting about 25% of the energy out of the impact, at most. The figure of 100 joules per gram to crush rock is derived from Earthly rocks, like granite and such. I wouldn't be surprised if this meteorite crushed at far less pressure, fragile and very porous, Mike said. It would crush test at less than half the 100 joule per gram mark. Maybe much less. Gimme a piece and I'll squash it in a strain guage; we'll see. Deep craters are not a mark of the excellent cushioning qualities of the the target material, any more than a deep bullet wound is the mark of the excellent cushioning properties of the human body. Frankly, the target material does not get much of a voice in the result. The theoretical ideal crater is three times wider than it is deep, and conical, for a simple crater without rebound, breccia accumulation in the floor, and all that other stuff. The Carancas crater is 13 m by 4 m, or 3:1 just like the models, and conical. It's a classic crater. It's not an impact pit; it's an explosive crater. The cratering result is entirely (or 95%) the result of the energies involved. Working out the models showed that changing impactor material (iron vs. ice) or the target material (sand vs. basalt) didn't change the results at all. Energy rules. Even a three ton stone meteorite wouldn't be expected to maintain any cosmic velocity, and if it did by some stretch, it should have long sheered apart as it hit dense atmosphere. It's a miracle that ANYTHING makes it to the ground. I think this was a very large object that ablated away, dropping chucks the whole way, for tens of kilometers along the line of flight. It just got to the ground before it was all gone. I suspect a low entry angle helped. Mike described the boy's photos of the smoke trail from Carancas, five miles away and said that after the boy took that picture, he went to the crater. I put on my deerstalker. How did he know where the crater was? At the time the meteor flew over the village, no one knew the location of the crater. The boy followed the smoke trail to the mushroom cloud, I surmise. This would nean that the object ablated the whole way to the crater and that mushroom cloud. This does not sound like a gentle impact to me. It sounds like hypersonic ablative flight, a violently energetic impact, a thermal explosive event, a thunderous boom of passage (witnesses said it lasted for 15 minutes, but my guess it only seemed like 15 minutes), a long persisting smoke trail. The highly nervous response and illnesses of the villagers suggests a semi-traumatic event. We blab about big impacts -- oh, boy! -- on this list all the time, but what would it be like to be IN one? I know Mike is full of the dream of the big one down there in the crater bottom, but so was Barringer, absolutely convinced that there was a fortune in nickel-iron in the deep basement rock of his crater. It's a dream that's easy to catch and hard to give up. We'll see if the Peruvians come up with anything. I'm betting against it. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New Peru article Hi List amigos, Just curious ... Sterling what model you have accounts for potato sized meteorites (and powder) scattered in and around meters from the impact, yet strictly
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50
Hi, The Sputnik signal was very weak, powered as it was by fading batteries, and of short duration. But the true picture is that it was orbiting a rock sphere that was ablaze in the radio spectrum, that was already a powerful interstellar radio anomaly. For the last 100 years, a strange astrophysical phenomenon happened in our otherwise normal solar system. A strange dark body, very small, in orbit around this ordinary unremarkable star, suddenly brightened in the radio spectrum until, within decades, it outshone its star in emitted radio energy. If there are any radio astronomers within 100 light years, on planets of the 10,000+ stars within that radius, most (all) have discovered this inexplicable event. Using the high resolution possible with radio astronomy, they have observed that the invisible but ultrabright radio source shifts from side to side by many mega-glucks in a period of millions of ticks, and have rightly deduced that it is a planetary body that has gone incredibly radio bright. And over time, the growth of that brightness has been virtually exponential. That can mean only one thing. Critters. Us. If you wonder if the others know we're here, rest your mind. We are the neighbor with the 5700 watts of yard lights or the stereo playing heavy metal at 1200 watts with lots of bass boost... or both. We are Radio Raheem with the largest boombox in this neck of the Galaxy. Or, more like it, the 316,000 watt Christmas yard display going all year long because it just too pretty to turn off. Every time we shift some tranmissions to newer, non-emissive modes (fiber optics, satellites), we fill the void with new types of transmissions. Cell phones! We stay bright, and we continue to brighten. Think what it will be like when we have spread across the solar system and have every kind of interplanetary radiowave networks, a million meteor detection pulsed radars, and a 100 billion cellphones. We will be the brightest radio source in many thousand light years. Sadly, it also means that if they were anybody even remotely like us within 100 light years, they would look exactly the same to us. And there isn't any such radio source --- noisy, multi-banded, bright --- anywhere. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Mike Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:47 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50 Hi Larry Damn that is a long way away. Hard to fathom how far away 50 light years is though. I wonder what the chances are of the signal directly hitting anyone of those 800 star/star systems. It is neat to think that the signal is so far away but unfortunately the signal would be unrecognizable to any alien cultures. It would just be too spread out (think of a radio station at a great distance) for anyone to pick it up. -- Mike -- Mike Jensen Jensen Meteorites 16730 E Ada PL Aurora, CO 80017-3137 303-337-4361 IMCA 4264 website: www.jensenmeteorites.com On 10/4/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dirk: 1 light year = 9.46 X 10^15 meters or 9.46 x 10^12 km. So, in 50 years: 4.7 x 10^14 km (470 trillion kilimeters). That is within range of a lot of stars. There are a 100 stars within 7.63 parsecs (almost 25 light years), so if you double the distance, there are about 800 stars (star systems) that have heard from Sputnik! Larry On Thu, October 4, 2007 4:15 am, drtanuki wrote: Hi List, Sputnik is now 50! Time flys. What does this have to do with meteorites?...much more than you might first think!...it totally changed our history and this One Step for Mankind will continue to lead to our future (survival/destruction) as well. Congrats to the dedicated Russians/Germans/Amerikans/Humans that worked dearly, for this feat regardless of the negatives it ushered in with all of the positives. Their personal sacrifice should be remembered. Anyone want to tune in their radio? bleep..bleep... BTW how far into space has Sputnik`s message now traveled after 50years??? Sterling...anyone??? Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman
Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru
Hi, Mike, List, At Carancas the meteoroid only traveled though 58% of the Earth's atmospheric mass and density. Pressure is just the mass of the atmosphere that is above where you are. Picture a square inch cross-section column rising from the surface of the planet out to the vacuum of space. The air in it weighs 14.7 pounds if you start at sea level, or 1200 grams. When you climb to where the pressure is halved, so is the mass of air above you and the mass of the air below you is the same as the amount above you. This happens at 5486 meters or 18,000 feet. At 8376 meters, or 27,480 feet, one-third of the atmosphere is above you and two-thirds below, and you are still not at the summit of Everest. But, oxygen partial pressure is down to less than 1 lb., and you are seriously short. (Pilots are recommended to go on Ox at 15,000 feet just to be sure they don't get whacky. Or is it required?) For all practical purposes, as a biological entity, you're in space at 23,000 feet, for this is the absolute limit of long-term survival without breathing aparatus, with 1.3 lbs of oxygen partial pressure. At 16,132 meters, or 52,926 feet, 90% of the air is below you and in another 10,000 feet, there's danger your blood will begin to boil lightly in the warmest parts of your body. At 30,901 meters, or 101,381 feet, 99% of the atmosphere is below you. If you're flying something with wings, they are totally useless. You'll notice pressure falls off quickly, exponentially actually, as a power of e or would if the atmosphere were the same temperature at all altitudes, but the cold upper atmosphere is heavier than the formula says... The formula is: Pressure at altitude A meters = Pressure at sea level X e ^ ( - ( A / 8500 ) ) (Sea level pressure is 14.7 lbs. per sq. in., or 1.2 kg. per sq. meter. 8500 meters is the scale height where pressure goes down to 1/e. And e goes on forever like pi. 2.71828182845904523536028747135266249775 7247093699959574966967627724076630353547 5945713821785251664274274663919320030599 218174135966290435729003342952605956307... I just use 2.72, OK? You can use the formula to get a rough idea of the oxygen percentage at the top of any mountain of known height, instead of just flopping down unconscious when you get there. You can also use it to calculate the density of air at any altitude, since pressure and density are just two ways of counting the number of molecules in a cube of air. More than you ever wanted to know, right? Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Mike Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Mike Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 3:53 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru As to the mention of dense atmosphere, doesn't 90% of the mass of the atmosphere lie below 2.5 miles above sea level? From my mountain climbing days, I remember that the rule of thumb was that 50% of the atmosphere was below 3.5 miles or 18,000 feet. The highest I made was the summit of Popocatepetl in Mexico, 17,800 feet above sea level. Mike Fowler Chicago __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru
Hi, Paul, List, I just posted: The air in it weighs 14.7 pounds if you start at sea level, or 1200 grams... Wrong! Grabbing numbers from a column of numbers, in a hurry, whoops! 1033 grams per sq. cm. is sea level atmospheric pressure in metric. The 1200 gram figure is the weight of a cubic meter of dry air at sea level, in case you're wondering... 14.7 pounds is 6.668 kg. Now, if politicians would correct their mistakes as fast... Sterling -- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru In a message dated 10/4/2007 6:40:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The air in it weighs 14.7 pounds if you start at sea level, or 1200 grams. Not to quibble...but I always thought that 14 pounds equaled about 6,000 plus or minus a few grams. Have I missed something? Best regards, Paul Martyn Savannah, GA See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Soil at the impact site
Hi, List Just to reinforce a point... If you go that second story: http://www.livinginperu.com/news/4840 and click to enlarge the picture, you will see a marvelous view of the material excavated by the impact that is now turned over in the rim. The great majority of it is blocks of country stone. I would say that 75% of the crater ejecta is shattered rocky strata. (The Peruvian sources say it is mostly Cenozoic limestone.) Big blocks of stone, and dirt a minority component. This was NOT a wet soil soft landing. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 5:33 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Per ù kaput for Farmer Make sure you check out the link for the other meteorite story at the end of this article. Has a nice photo of Mike at the crater. Good job and welcome back, Mike! __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru
Hola, Doug, I think the variety of reports I've already posted and then referred to several times, are all that I can say to your dislike for my reconstruction of the event. I confess to being somewhat mystified by your comments. The size of the crater, which is rare or even unique... Quite to the contrary, it is a textbook normal conical simple crater with a width/depth ratio of 3:1 (13.4 meters wide and 4+ meters deep), just like ideal theoretical crater. A much better comparison, btw, is Jilin. The Carancas crater bears no resemblance to Jilin, none whatsoever. Jilin is not a crater. Jilin is not even an impact pit. Jilin is a hole 6 meters deep and less than 2 meters wide. Jilin is a good example of your previous metaphor of a marble dropped in a snowbank. It was so slow-moving that it just poked a hole in the dirt. what model you have accounts for potato sized meteorites (and powder) scattered in and around meters from the impact The incredible amount of meteorite powder Mike mentioned is not a derivation from a model; it's a witness statement by someone who was there, an expert witness at that. The mechanism is back-spalling. The shock wave of impact, originating at the point of impact, extends both forward into the target material and backward through the impactor. If the speed of impact exceeds the speed of sound in the meteoritic material, the expanding shock wave shreds the meteorite and pushes the distrupting material back, away from the impact. [I insert here the fact that the few tests that have been performed on meteorites show that the speed of sound is less in meteorites than in comparable terrestrial rocks. The more porous the meteorite, the slower the speed of sound in it. Carancas was a dead duck, I'm afraid.] In a truly violent impact, only the central rear portion of the impactor survives as fragments. In less violent impacts, the rear quarter, third or more of the impactor is fragmented and ejected backwards (along with the powdered material closer to the point of impact). It is found radially distributed around the crater (or asymetrically if an oblique impact). I mentioned Canyon Diablo because Nininger first elucidated the mechanism, I believe, although I cannot cite chapter and verse. Googling, I discover that Jay Melosh claims to have discovered it. Shame, shame. How quickly they pick, not your bones, but your ideas... once you're dead. http://www.gsajournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-documentdoi=10.1130%2F1052-5173(2002)012%3C0029%3AGKGA%3E2.0.CO%3B2ct=1 Melosh's Impact Cratering: A Geological Process is the standard work on impact mechanics. Amazon Canada has used copy for only $665.77. I guess it's priceless knowledge. Well, no; it has a price. And not in crummy US dollars either, but those rare and valuable Canadian dollars! the ablative path for most meteorites stops much, much higher than 3800 meters! I cited the witness evidence that indicates the ablative path continued to, or very near to, the crater, so this is another ditto. And if it was ablating to the ground, it clearly wasn't in free fall. I quote Jose Machero of INGEMMET (which I've done before): There was a strong explosion that was felt up to Desaguadero city 20 km from the impact site. Some window glasses of the Local Health Center (at 1 km from the site) were broken. An impact that was felt 20 kilometers away does not sound like free fall to me. I really like the graph. May a Lunar fall gently in your back garden. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru Not so fast Sterling :-) The size of the crater, which is rare or even unique... doesn't make mucked-up analyses a requirement! Short and simple as I just read your reply to me in which you somehow missed the central point I asked about when you insisted that the crater contains nothing but powder...let's take a little more of a scientific approach. My prior post began, Sterling what model you have accounts for potato sized meteorites (and powder) scattered in and around meters from the impact, yet strictly powder inside, especially for a meteorite that sheds like this one particularly along its natural 'fault' lines. Please answer that question clearly for my benefit rather than skipping and speaking of Canyon Diablo and Barringer. A much better comparison, btw, is Jilin. As to the ancillary stuff... Congratulations on ace Mountaineer Mike Fowler who mentioned that 50% of the atmosphere is under 3.5 miles elevation - it jives within 100 meters to the calculation I worked on and gives me the confidence I need for checking this calculation. When
[meteorite-list] WARNING
List, Randall Gregory's last post (the one with an attachment) has a running script in it, i.e., may be viral or otherwise harmless. I burned it. What is a script? A script is basicly a program, and if your e-mail client opens it, it'll do whatever it was intended to do, which could be just about anything, including format your HD. That's what my favorite expert said. And I see RG's posted another with an attachment. I recommend destruction. And block him. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] WARNING II
List, Randall Gregory's last post (the one with an attachment) has a running script in it, i.e., may be viral or otherwise harmless. I meant to say HARMFUL, not harmless obviously. We have a serial jerk running amuck on the List. I burned it. What is a script? A script is basicly a program, and if your e-mail client opens it, it'll do whatever it was intended to do, which could be just about anything, including format your HD. That's what my favorite expert said. And I see RG's posted another with an attachment. I recommend destruction. And block him. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Post from Randall
Thaddeus, Dollars in their thongs... Is that a scholarly reference? Literary, perhaps? Do you have Polaroids? Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Thaddeus Besedin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:32 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Post from Randall True, Martin: pigs are still pigs in Peru, and Randall and Mike both seem to be incapable of settling conflicts without resorting to tattletale cop-calling. Of course, people resorting to the illegitimate authority of police often need to be policed (as in Mike's alleged disturbances of cultural stability/looting and Randall's supposed recourse to Gestapo tactics/looting). Altogether, Mike and Randall are whiny little whores, with dollars in their thongs. -Thaddeus --- Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh, I wouldn't say, that it is a waste of time. Other people are paying money to see such great films like The treasure of the Sierra Madre -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Greg Hupe Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Oktober 2007 03:54 An: fausta Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Post from Randall Why post for the guy? Tell him to post directly to Mike instead wasting the rest of our time. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 - Original Message - From: fausta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:46 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Post from Randall I was asked to post this: Hey Fausta, will you post for me? Please. I propose this to Mr. Farmer. That we both return all of our meteorite's to the Peruvian government and ask them permission if we can keep one for our respective collections. They can make that decision. And they can also decide how much we can keep. Then we apologize to the people of Carancas and offer to them to help preserve the crater and extract the main mass (if any). Just a thought. I like to call it Doing the right thing. Randall (no problemo) Gregory (Dragon Slayer) not a Tiger! I don't know him at all. Kelly __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru
Hi, there is no reliable basis to discount the probability of bona fide fragments in the crater, Yes! Mike said the upper dirt walls of the crater had many fragments embedded in them and the locals picked them all out of the dirt (before he could get to them, I suspect). witness evidence of boiling cauldren pits is the hardest report to swallow out of all the reports, but damnably huge number of witnesses independently support the statement. Frankly, I don't know what to make of it. I'm a boilagnostic. hidden behind the tireless search engine and fine postings - which is just that - opinion. You asked me what model? I went searching for some site that might explicate the current standard model of impact so you wouldn't have to take my word for it, and couldn't find any site that did and the book is out-of-print, too. I reported that I tried and failed, and explained back-spall as best I could. What's wrong with that? few if any known peers. I said size... The bigger the crater, the more likely the object that made it was destroyed. Psst! Buddy? You wanna buy the main mass of Chicxulub? Cheap? Kidding aside, it is the only crater over 10 meters that isn't an iron, it appears, so that is unique. But that could be because it was a faster impact = bigger crater, and that would not bode well for survival. these negligible differences between meteorite and terrestrial are unlikely to make the difference and i don't think you mean that either. Not negligible and they make a big difference. The speed of P-waves (pressure waves) in terrestrial rock is 6000 to 7000 m/sec. In an assortment of six chondrites (this was only done once because it destroys the meteorite), speeds were 2000 m/sec to a high of 4200 m/sec, without any correlation to petrological grade. Since this speed determines the impact speed needed to totally disrupt any stone, no matter how high its crushing strength, it is easy to see that a chondrite can be destroyed at slower speeds. Even without shock waves, if the energy the stone exceeds its own crushing strength, it WILL be powdered. Shock waves are not the only way to go to pieces. And there's every evidence the crushing strength of this stone is very low. Tell ya what! You buy a piece and we'll crush it! IF (big if) it was in ablative flight to the ground, it would be going at least 2000 m/sec, as that is the lower limit of ablative flight (Norton, Rocks From Space). That is the estimated speed of Sterlitamak, which went into the ground as a fireball. It survived but it was an iron. It's ALL speculation unless they plumb the crater's depths! If they never try, we'll never know. If they try and don't retrieve anything, we'll never know for sure. Only if we see a great mass dangling from chain hoists and cranes, will we know the answer with complete certainty. Unless it becomes a myth, a local legend. There's a million dollar meteorite buried in that hole! Lake Titicaca Pirates will row longboats ashore in the dark of the moon and dig for the treasure. It'll be like the mysterious Oak Island Treasure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Island may a well oriented Venisian grace the mantel above your hearth. I have a hearth and I have a mantel; now all I need is the Rock. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 1:54 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru Hi Sterling, my brief comments are inserted in your text in all lower case, Hola, Doug, I think the variety of reports I've already posted and then referred to several times, are all that I can say to your dislike for my reconstruction of the event. I confess to being somewhat mystified by your comments. i am not focused on your reconstruction of the event. just your comment that everything in the crater is pulverized due to the incredible energy released in impact. while this is a possible scenario, i hope more intact material can be found. my objection really is the tendency for people to jump to conclusions ruling out other posibilities based on heresay. i've read the same reports you have over the same time period and cannot see any clear cut evidence as you do. that's what i enjoy about the list, the ability to debate all sides of a problem openly and come away with a new angle in the process. plus the bickereing was getting to me so this was a nice opportunity to contribute. The size of the crater, which is rare or even unique... Quite to the contrary, it is a textbook normal conical simple crater with a width/depth ratio of 3:1 (13.4 meters wide and 4+ meters deep), just like ideal theoretical crater. sterling, on earth, this crater has few if any known peers. I said size. i did not mentioned anything about proportions. A much
Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Titicaca meteorite - thin sections
Hi, Randall, List, Wearily, to set the record straight: 1. I am not a dealer of meteorites. I buy'em; I don't sell'em. I was at one time an antiques dealer, but sold nothing as old as meteorites. 2. I did receive a List email from you with an active running script in it. I don't know what that script would have done, but I didn't wait around to find out. Mostly, I wondered how it could get past the five programs that strip-search all emails before they get to my door, but I don't expect you to tell me your trade secrets. 3. I think that members who intentionally post viral content to the List or to List members off-list ought to be removed from the List. Call me narrow-minded if you want to. Of course, someone's computer can be infected and send out bad stuff; that different. I don't think that's what happened with you because of #4 (below). 4. I later (that evening, after warning the List) received a 4.53Mb email that pretended to be from Bob Verrish but was really from you. It went to where spooffy spam belongs: Spooffy Spam Hell. 5. You can't be removed from the List by sending the List an email that requests to be removed. Go the Meteorite Central website and unsubscribe yourself. That's the only way to be removed from the List and the only thing you could do that would make anyone believe that's what you want. 6. Bon Voyage! Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Dr. Richard Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 3:48 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Lake Titicaca meteorite - thin sections I just sent a e-mail to Actlabs in Canada requesting information on thin sections with priority service. I hope to send them a 57 gram specimen. I hope to get a response from them soon. Any valid researcher desiring a thin section can contact me off list. I don't know right now what the price will be for the thin section but it can be purchased directly from Actlabs but through me. The meteorite is fragil and is starting to oxidize in this humid weather and I want to get it into research as soon as possible. I make no profit on this. A dealer on the list has accused me of sending a virus, and has requested that I be removed from the list. Don't bother. I request to be removed, immediately. I've posted benign content on my blog, only to find out it's been removed. What a rat's nest this place is and I'm sick of it. Adios, Randall __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] A Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts
Hi, E.P., List, E.P. writes: ...After this the Good Mind created the first man and woman at the Buffalo Lick...may be identified with Big (Salt) Lick, just to the south of... Cincinnati, Ohio... This would put the spot where Humanity was created right on the site (or within a very few miles) of the new Creation Museum. I wonder if they know they built their Biblical Theme Park in the Garden of Eden? And, you know? There are people that think that God doesn't have a sense of humor? Sterling - - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 7:41 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] A Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts Hi all - I hope you will bear with me here, as I need to make a record of this Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts. It comes from Albert S. Gatschet's manuscript, which was not available to me when I assembled Man and Impact in the Americas, and so this tradition was not included in my book. You may want to watch the National Geographic Channel this Sunday at 10 Eastern time for the first broadcast of their new documentary on the Holocene Start Impacts. A SHAWNEE TRADITION OF THE HOLOCENE START IMPACTS The following mythic tale of the Battle of the Good Mind and the Bad Mind was also held by the Tuscarora, and David Cusick's version of it from his Sketches of the Ancient History of the Six Nations, was given complete in my own book Man and Impact in the Americas. This shared tradition is not surprising, as Iroquoian people comprised the first of the three streams that joined to form the Shawnee people. A later borrowing of this tale by the Shawnee can be ruled out. The version given here came from Thomas Staind and William Tookey, was elucidated by Thomas Dougherty, and preserved through the hard work of Albert Gatschet. THE BATTTLE OF THE GOOD MIND AND THE BAD MIND One of the Twins was the Creator [the Good Mind - Wessi Manitou, elsewhere in the manuscript] and the other the Destroyer, or the Bad Spirit (Maeche Manitou, the Bad Mind). The first was born properly. The second was not born properly; He was born from his mother's side. Both of them started off. The Creator headed for the Center (Taheliki), just there he came, and then they both came to the Center (Taheliki). Then one of them wanted to know what they were going to do, then one of them went to the East, the other to the West. One of them by turning went towards the place where the Sun rises(East). Let us go (to the Center) the Bad Mind said to the Good Spirit (Mind), There we will look at what each of us has created. Too much and too good have you created everything, the Bad Mind said. You have given them too much - you have created too much good. For everything was created so well that people would altogether be too lazy. [Dougherty(?) elucidated this as When the Bad Mind went west, he returned, and said to the Good Mind, You created everything too well, the children will be too lazy.] Then the Good Mind spoke to the Evil Mind. Everything too badly you have created, even large snakes [COMETS] even those which will kill people. You have badly created even worse than that. [Dougherty(?) told this as To the Bad Mind the Good Mind said, You created everything wrong while going west - big snakes would kill a person, thorns (cactus, most likely a later western insertion of detail) - and your creations would be obnoxious to people.] Now then they were returning back to where they started. Then the Bad Mind asked the Good Mind, What are you afraid of? Of horns, he [the Good Mind] answered. And what are you afraid of?, he [the Good Mind] asked. Of flagweeds (hapwaki), they will strangle me if you strike me. [I now think it most likely that these flags were some kind of poison used in hunting.] Then the Bad Mind said You first Then not you will be first in turn? That is agreeable., said the Good Mind. Then he ran towards the sunrise (east). In that direction he ran, and the Bad Mind followed. Ten times, twelve times, they piled the flags upon one another, until they reached the piles of flags came to an end, and then they returned to the Center. Then the Bad Mind ran to the west. In that direction he ran, and the Good Mind ran after him. Ten times, twelve times, horns were piled in that direction. The Good Mind picked up the horns as he was running, and he stuck the Bad Mind with these horns. Then the Good Mind put a rock on himself, and then the Bad Mind struck him with these horns until he tore to pieces his own garment. Thus he [the Good Mind] killed him [the Bad Mind]. [THE IMPACTS - The order of directions given here, south, east, north, and west may be ritualistic or may preserve some actual memory of sequence.] Then the Good Mind built a fire, as he wanted to burn the Bad Mind up. Then while the Bad Mind's heart was in the fire, it
Re: [meteorite-list] let me just share this graph
Doug, I am in sort of a rush since today is Monze Day. Are you flying to Monze for Lwiindi or just having your own New World Lwiindi? Whichever, I wish you much rain and bounteous maize! But, aren't we in the wrong axial hemisphere? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] let me just share this graph Hi Herman, Glad it could be helpful, and also would like to thank your for the always positive comments and attitude you have on the list. I prefer the graph I already posted, but I got a private email that it was a nice graph, but...but one had to stand on their head to read it best. So here is another version to save anyone from breaking their neck: http://www.diogenite.com/Huanocollo2.gif The original, which I prefer, is at http://www.diogenite.com/Huanocollo.gif Let me try to give a little meaning to the graph in case there are any casual readers interested. As mentioned the graph is specific to the latitude of the new Peruvian fall in October, though quite reasonable as an estimate in most other circumstances for many latitudes. It simply shows the fraction of the mass of the atmosphere above (or between if you like) any altitude between sea level and 25 kilometers height. The total mass of the atmosphere is considered by considering all the mass up to 100 kilometers altitude. So, by looking at the graph, you can see that 63.7% of the atmospheric mass is above 3.8 Km, the altitude of the new fall. Actually on the graph it is closer to 64%, as the elevation I used was from the Bolivian report which is a little less than the 3.8 Km, in case anyone was wondering. (Note to Sterling, the 62.1% I quoted before was actually didn't include the value of the mass in the interval from 3.8Km to 4.0Km going upward due to a little careless arithmetic on my part, so there is a minor bit more atmosphere to go through to get to the 37XX meters of the fall elevation..) Alternately, by looking at the graph, you could determine that: between 15Km (12.9% atmosphere mass above) and 20Km (5.6% atmosphere mass above) altitude, i.e., there is 7.3% of the atmosphere mass, and above that only 5.6%. This is of special interest to meteoritists, as those are the typical altitudes given for bolides when ablation ceases usually at 3Km per second fall speed (plus of minus 1 Km/s). For a meteorite(oid) not to enter free fall velocity, i.e., maintain a non-trivial portion of its cosmic velocity, a vertical descent, entering at an angle like Peru's, a vertical fall (and this was not vertical, causing the requirement to be higher) would have to be something over 5 tons of basically surviving material. There is one unknown, though, and that is relative velocity the meteoroid had with Earth, though one would expect it to have been fairly low in order to reach the ground. Finally, the free fall velocity or a sphere that weighs 2 tons at the air density (same used to make the graph) is between 0.345 Km/s to 0.385 Km/s. That is slightly above the speed of sound which over there is about 0.325 Km/s. So we are at least 6% above Mach 1 in free fall for a two metric ton sphere of denisty 3800 kg/m^3. That would be a nice baseline for some scenarios as data is released. For the impact to have been subsonic, for a sphere of that density, the main mass would definitely have to weigh less than 1.4 metric tons when it impacted (assuming a sphere: orientation can half or double this value). That is less than one ton of TNT (popular way to measure explosions), the crater looks like it could be as much as a 2-ton TNT size or so but better an more bellical person comment on this. That would require an impactor weighing in the 5 to 25 metric ton range, traveling over 0.6 Km/s, but I see I am getting into something Sterling might want to comment on. Hope this sets set some more bases for thought...it is not intended to limit scenarios, though. Hope I've not made any mistakes as I am in sort of a rush since today is Monze Day. Best health, Doug - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 12:35 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] let me just share this graph Thanks Doug; This graph is very useful for future reference.Great job thanks for sharing.There is some very informative posts coming out of the carancas fall.What an event!Record breaking probably.Meteoritically speaking.Thanks to all posters on this event and the calculations involved. Best Regards;Herman Archer IMCA # 2770 ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman
Re: [meteorite-list] Ground penetrating radar at Carancas?
Hi, All, The peruvian geologist from INGEMMET said the water table there is one meter below grade, so you couldn't see down past that anywhere in the area: http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1321category=Science And the crater isn't flat or level and it's full of signal-blocking water. Rats! Plan B? Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Arizona Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Piper R.W. Hollier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 3:12 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ground penetrating radar at Carancas? Hello Piper and List I used GPR before, and yes it has limitations. 1. It can't see past the water table, blocks the signal, or reflex signal completely, and you see nothing past it. 2 Wet and dry clay soils weaken and/or block the signal completely, you send out a signal and it doesn't come back. 3. Depending on the frequency, Units can see small objects close to the surface, deeper you go, the large frequency you need, and only large items can be seen at great depths, the unit I used range between 1 to 45 foot depths, It's seen 3' dia. manhole covers buried 25' deep, but not 8 valve covers at that depth. 4. Metal objects vibrate, they stand out great, stony meteorites don't stand out well, I tested it on some, But you can see the changes in the layer of bedding, the bedrock and the disturbance of the impact on them, 5.Most GPR units only work looking straight down, so the area needs to be flat and level for best results. Hope this helps, good night all. Thanks for your time Keith Chandler AZ - Original Message - From: Piper R.W. Hollier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:30 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Ground penetrating radar at Carancas? Hello again list, Ground penetrating radar (GPR) is commonly used for non-destructive investigation of archaeological sites. GPR can detect objects, changes in material, and voids and cracks. (Wikipedia) Has anyone thought of mapping the crater with GPR before sending in a backhoe to rip it open? This could be one way to have some idea whether there are meteorite masses under the ground, how large, and where, before starting to dig. It could also yield valuable information about the morphology of the crater, with potentially more precision and detail than digging would allow. Can someone on the list comment on the state of the art of GPR? How deep can it penetrate nowadays? (Wikipedia says 15 meters, best case.) Would a high water table be a problem? (Wikipedia says that range would be greatly reduced in moist and/or clay laden soils.) Are there new designs or techniques that could get around such limitations? In any case, there would be some thorny practical problems to be dealt with. Ordinarily the antennas need to be nearly in direct contact with the ground, which would seemingly make it very difficult, if not impossible, to do a scan of an area where the ground surface is anything but flat. Or has someone come up with a workaround for this issue in a similar situation? Best wishes to all, Piper __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Peru INGEMMET contact information for petition ofaerial photos and Carancas crater preservation
The IMGEMMET website is: http://www.ingemmet.gob.pe/ On the upper right is a row of links that includes Contactenos or Contact Us (I guess). Clicking on it brings up a page with three email address for mining, financial affairs, and technical relations, the website of the Minister, and their phone and fax numbers. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 5:18 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Peru INGEMMET contact information for petition ofaerial photos and Carancas crater preservation Dear List, Here is the contact information for Peru`s INGEMMET if you wish to petition for aerial photographs and stereo-pair photos, crater preservation and any further followup study. Time is of the essence so IF possible FAX in Spanish (best) or English. I don`t currently have their email addresses at this time. If someone can come up with their email addresses please post to the list. Contact persons: Investigators: Luisa Macedo F. Jose Machare O. Telephone: +51-1-618-9800 (central operator) Fax: +51-1-225-3063; +51-1-225-4540 Fax Ventas: +51-1-476-7010 Address: INGEMMET Av. Canada 1470, San Borja, Lima 41, PERU Thanks to those that help with concerning these matters. Sincerely, Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas meteorite...glassy spheres.
Hi, Graham, List, Yeah, I mentioned the glassy spheroids in my first 1 or 2 posts. They can form from the ablative trail or from impact. IF an impactor vaporizes, or any substantial part of it, a cloud of rock vapor is ejected by the shock front of its own formation. Rapidly cooled by the surrounding atmosphere, the tiny condensing droplets of molten rock solidify. Because they are quenched rapidly (if not instantly), no crystallization of the mineral can take place -- you get amorphic glass. Because of the heat of vaporization, they possess no magnetic properties whatever; they're just tiny beads of glass. However, they maintain the bulk composition of the meteorite (minus the volatiles); if you find any, it can determined if they're from the meteorite or not this means. The meteorite dust should contain some spheroids from ablation, which produces not only molten rock stripped from the meteoroid but a fraction that actually vaporizes in the ablative process. Finding small qualtities right up the crater would indicate the impactor ablated all the way to the ground (it's been observed, though rarely). That would set the minimum impact velocity at about 2000 meters per second. Finding a larger amount of spheroids distributed though the ejecta blanket and possibly further afield would mean the impactor or part of it vaporized on impact. Vaporization by impact requires a high specific energy, about 18,000 joules per gram of rock, which is the kinetic energy of an impact at 6000 meters per second. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: ensoramanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas meteorite...glassy spheres. Hi, In earlier discussions on the list it was discussed...I think!...that if the Carancas meteorite was still ablating near to impact that there would be evidence in the form of ablation material around the site. The dealer in Bolivia informed me that there were indeed small glassy spheres around in the soil found by locals with magnets. Unfortunately he did not collect or record any. Or could these be formed by heat on impact? Anybody have any thoughts. Mike, Moritz or Rob. Did you come across any? Graham Ensor __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] THE CARANCAS PERU METEOROID IMPACT CALCULATIONS
at Chris Peterson's email to Mike on 10/02/07; there's a man too wise to waste time playing volleyball with imaginary balls and an invisible net.) What if the object ISN'T a sphere? I've seen lots of pictures of very small asteroids and none of them were spheres: bent peanuts, dumbbells, pancakes with dome-poles, and something vaguely the size and shape of a stripmall-in-space, but not one sphere. The smaller the object, the more irregular. What if the meteoroid was roughly a cylinder 4-5 times longer than wide? How would it fare hitting the atmosphere at 60 degrees tangent to the ground and 17,000 meters a second? Well, it depends on its weight, almost entirely, as it turns out. One ton just barely gets to ground at a few hundred miles per hour and ten tons bores in at 8600 meters per second, intermediate weights at all intermediate speeds, any speed you want. None of them ablate away completely and none of them fragment. They all make a crater. What a remarkable result! Back in February '07, when we were talking about a new and big Holbrook find, I posted this reference which has an analysis of that strewnfield, asserting that it was the product of a multiple fragmentation. It uses composite scaling analysis to model strewnfields, and in so doing the authors discover that the original SHAPE of the meteoroid has a much stronger influence on the descent to Earth than we realized, may in fact be the big determining factor in what gets to ground and how fast or slow it does it. The link was publicly accessible then, but is now only accessible to those with big bulgy pockets or members of The Institutional Academic Scholars Union Local. We must keep our arcane knowledge out of the hands of poor people; it is our duty as a civilization, eh, what? (Sorry; I get this way when I Google too much...) http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/0295-5075/43/5/598/node4.html L. Oddershede, A. Meibom, J. Bohr: Scaling analysis of meteorite shower mass distributions. EUROPHYSICS LETTERS, 1998, Vol.43, No.5, pp.598-604 Turns out the only way you can get the original mass of the Sikhote-Alin object to the ground is to make it, too, a long shape, ratio 3:1 or more. A chip off some bigger block. The link that Mike just posted to the List: http://home.comcast.net/~C_Shipbaugh/Impact.html are calculations by a nanotechnologist who has obviously never analyzed a meteorite fall before and manages to get it amazingly right (physics is physics, you know). He does silly things like over-estimating the volume of the crater by a factor of two because he does not know it's conical! Doha! He arrives at a 5 ton TNT impact without apparently knowing that the seismic signal was rated at 5 tons of TNT. He, too, thinks it was a slow impact, which is why he favors 10 or 20 ton objects, but says 4.5 tons at 3000 m/sec is most likely guess (which is the same as 1.125 ton at 6000 m/sec). He introduces the factor of shape in the form of the ballistic parameter or coefficient, but then goes ahead and models it as a SPHERE. See, all physicists think alike (well, most). You are probably saying about now, what is this all about? Well, remember the glory days of starting into space and how, after envisioning spaceships all our Buck Rogers life, we were amazed to see the first spaceship, the Mercury capsule, was an Ice Cream Cone? It re-entered on its butt, er, blunt, end for maximum resistance. The re-entry end was a segment of a sphere (probably so the physicists could model it better). And everyday dumb people said, Why don't they come back with the pointy end down; wouldn't that be faster? Better yet, why isn't it all sleek and thin like a jet plane? Well, we know the answer to that one, of course. Because a long cylindrical object with an (ablated) point would bore into the ground at tremendous speed. That's the ballistic parameter. We wanted the Mercury capsule to SLOW DOWN. If we wanted it to make a big crater, it would have looked like the Bell X-1 without wings. All it takes to get any meteoroid to the ground at a high speed is to stop imagining that God made all the billions of little rocks in space perfect spheres to make life easy for physicists. He likes us... But not that much. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Peru INGEMMET contact information forpetitionofaerial photos and Carancas crater preservation
Hi, Dirk, List, It appears from some of the news stories that the Geophysics Institute of Peru (IGP), whose name is sometimes given as the Instituto Astrofisica of Peru, and its president Ronald Woodman, is competing with INGEMMET to be the agency to control the investigation and excavate the crater. http://www.andina.com.pe/NoticiaDetalle.aspx?id=144455 The legislator proposed to the chief, in coordination with the IGP, to extract the meteorite, and move it to a safe place to facilitate its study, prevent its sale, and to exploit the zone both for science and tourism to the local population. Apparently we can add to the list of factors working against any timely recovery of material from the crater bureaucratic in-fighting, never a rapid process. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Charlie Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 7:40 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Peru INGEMMET contact information forpetitionofaerial photos and Carancas crater preservation Dear Charlie, Thank you for your efforts! Hopefully with some encouragement they will act soon. It is to the benefit of the local peoples, Peru, science and the rest of us that care! Best Regards, Dirk...Tokyo --- Charlie Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wrote to both these email addys and asked them to help recover what would be one of Peru's greatest natural treasures. As Mike Farmer says, perhaps it's too late. But I suggest everyone on this list plead the case for recovery by also sending emails. What else can any of us at such a distance do? Charlie D. Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 22:36:59 -0400 From: Dave Carothers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Peru INGEMMET contact information for petitionofaerial photos and Carancas crater preservation Try the following: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards, Dave - Original Message - From: drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 10:14 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Peru INGEMMET contact information for petitionofaerial photos and Carancas crater preservation List, Still no eamil addresses for Jose Machare or Luisa Macedo, report investigators. Here is a copy of the email addresses from the INGEMMET site: INSTITUTO GEOLÓGICO MINERO Y METALÚRGICO Abreviatura: INGEMMET Sector:Ministerio de Energú} y Minas Dirección: Av. CanadEN° 1470 Departamento: LIMA Provincia: LIMA Distrito: SAN BORJA Teléfono:+51-1-618-9800 Fax: +51-1-225-4540 RUC: 20112919377 Types of Information: --- Product Information: Información sobre ventas de productos y servicios [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ing. Alvaro Figueroa Encargado de Ventas -- Adminstrative Finance: Información sobre la parte administrativa en el marco de la ley de transparencia [EMAIL PROTECTED] Eco. Guillermo Casafranca Garcú} Director de Administración y Finanzas -- Institutional Technical Cooperation Relations Information: Información sobre asuntos técnicos en el marco de la ley de transparencia [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ing. Francisco Herrera Oficina de Relaciones Institucionales y Cooperación Técnica --- Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The IMGEMMET website is: http://www.ingemmet.gob.pe/ On the upper right is a row of links that includes Contactenos or Contact Us (I guess). Clicking on it brings up a page with three email address for mining, financial affairs, and technical relations, the website of the Minister, and their phone and fax numbers. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 5:18 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Peru INGEMMET contact information for petition ofaerial photos and Carancas crater preservation Dear List, Here is the contact information for Peru`s INGEMMET if you wish to petition for aerial photographs and stereo-pair photos, crater preservation and any further followup study. Time is of the essence so IF possible FAX in Spanish (best) or English. I don`t currently have their email addresses at this time. If someone can come up with their email addresses please post to the list. Contact persons: Investigators: Luisa Macedo F. Jose Machare O. Telephone: +51-1-618-9800 (central operator) Fax: +51-1-225-3063; +51-1-225-4540 Fax Ventas: +51-1-476-7010
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas meteorite...glassy spheres.
Mike, They'd be TINY, one millimeter or less with a rare 2-3 millimeter one once in a while. You couldn't really search for them visually unless they had an odd color (which happens). Take some specimen jars with you, scoop up a small amount of powder, ejecta, without digging into the ground dirt, all from one spot, all in one scoop, seal it, label it with the location relative to the crater, like ejecta blanket, 5 meters out and bring'em back, ten or more from near and far and all sides. Better still, have a helper to do it. Why do profs have grad students, sorcerers and journeymen have apprentices? Somebody's got to do the scut work! If no scientist wants to work them up, put'em on eBay: Carancas Ejecta Blanket Sample, Meteorite Dust and Particles, 50 grams. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ensoramanda [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas meteorite...glassy spheres. I searched the heck out of the soil, and never saw any, but hey, I was looking for meteorite chunks, not glass spheroids. Mike --- ensoramanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, In earlier discussions on the list it was discussed...I think!...that if the Carancas meteorite was still ablating near to impact that there would be evidence in the form of ablation material around the site. The dealer in Bolivia informed me that there were indeed small glassy spheres around in the soil found by locals with magnets. Unfortunately he did not collect or record any. Or could these be formed by heat on impact? Anybody have any thoughts. Mike, Moritz or Rob. Did you come across any? Graham Ensor __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] THE CARANCAS PERU METEOROID IMPACT CALCULATIONS
Hi, Jan, List, I wish email allowed one to scribble little pencil diagrams with arrows and pointers in the margin! Then this would be so much easier! A heightened rim on one side can result from two different situations. One would be if the impactor came in a low angle from the south, say 20 to 30 degrees. The force of initial impact would have a vector that pushed very much harder on the rim opposite the direction of flight, raising it higher than the other rim. This is fairly easy to visualize. With a high angle from the north, say 60 degrees, it's harder to visualize. But imagine a half sphere of outward force from the initial impact that's oriented on the direction of the object's travel; it's tilted 30 degrees up on the south and 30 degrees down on the north. Picture its center as below ground level at the depth where the impactor stops moving into the ground and the explosive event peaks in force. This results in the south rim getting blown out more easily. For any angle away from the impactor's direction of travel, the forces on the south side have less material between the center of force and the surface of the ground, hence it more easily blows out to the surface. On the north side of the explosion, the side force vectors are tilted down, are resisted by more material; it's harder to blow out as much of it out. It piles up and raises the north rim. It's a relative weak effect that would only show up in a cratering event this small. Now, in a really fast (or really big or both) impact, the impactor penetrates so deeply, so quickly that when it explodes, it produces a perfectly symmetrical result, just as if you'd buried a small nuclear device in the dead center of your planned crater This wasn't that powerful an event, and while it seems to have been an explosive event, I doubt it was a rock vaporizing event, meaning I don't think the impact velocity was as high as 6000 m/sec. I believe that Piper R. W. Hollier's suggestion that it was hot enough to vaporize the troilite in the stone is correct. The INGEMMET analysis says 5% troilite in the survivor fragments. Since troilite pools into inclusions, the amount in the stone as a whole could be even higher. If 5% to 8% of a stone is instantly converted to vapor, you get a moderately good sized explosive event (and the smells and the acid-base reactions in the water)! That amount of energy could be generated by a velocity as low as perhaps 1200 m/sec (Mach 3.5) or less, depending on the efficiency of the impact. Efficiency? In calculating impacts, a complicating factor is the fact that the impact has so many jobs to do: exploding the impactor, excavating the crater, producing seismic waves, producing acoustic waves, and a dozen other tasks! They all have to draw their energy from the impact -- everybody wants a piece of the action. The truth or folly of all this analysis will become clear when (and if) the Instituto Astrofisica successfully excavates the crater, and I will either be dining on crow for a month (baked crow, crow soup, crow a la King on toast, crow sandwiches and crowburgers...) or will be fatuously satisfied for about five minutes. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Jan Hattenbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] THE CARANCAS PERU METEOROID IMPACT CALCULATIONS -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: 07.10.07 09:27:54 An: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] THE CARANCAS PERU METEOROID IMPACT CALCULATIONS Hi Sterling, The north portion of the rim is higher than the south portion; the impactor came from the north. The slope of the crater wall on the south is less than on the north; this argues a steep angle of impact for the object (60 degrees), which means that it came more or less from the top of the sky. I don't get this. Should it not be the opposite? If the impactor came from the north, I would expect the south rim to be higher. Are there any pictures showing the crater, the rim AND the cardinal points? Best regards, Jan _ In 5 Schritten zur eigenen Homepage. Jetzt Domain sichern und gestalten! Nur 3,99 EUR/Monat! http://www.maildomain.web.de/?mc=021114 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Thin Sections of Carancas Meteorite
The INGEMMET report at: http://www.ingemmet.gob.pe/paginas/pl01_quienes_somos.aspx?opcion=320 contains photos of four of the meteorites and three thin section photos, two of them polarized. Text in English. People who understand thin sections (not me) are invited to comment in reply, please. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas Thin sections
Thanks, Bernd, The video in the link Stefan Brandes supplied: http://spacefiles.blogspot.com/2007/10/carancas-meteorite-peru.html shows a local resident holding a meteorite' under a magnifying glass -- a perfect grey metal sphere like a ball bearing -- so we know it contained free metal in droplet form, which I assume is the source of the INGEMMET bulk analysis of 15% kamacite. But in so many photos, the metorite matrix appears to be very, very light; in many photos it's almost white. I'll admit to being petrologically challenged, but it seems to me that a matrix that incorporates a large amount of chemically bound iron would not appear so blanco. In some photos the meteorite doesn't appear so white, so perhaps it's an exposure control effect introduced by the photographer. Perfectly in character for an ambiguous event. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 4:01 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Carancas Thin sections Sterling wrote: People who understand thin sections are invited to comment in reply Hi Sterling and List, Unfortunately these thin section pics are very low-resolution so it is hard to judge from these low-quality pictures. But let's try and others, like John Kashuba, are invited to chime in. The dark areas in the cross-polarized image are probably opaque minerals (metal, troilite, etc.) and the conclusion we can draw is that this meteorite is metal- and FeS-rich, in other words an H5 or H6 chondrite (I think Mike Farmer already said so in one of his first mails). On the left, in the nine o'clock position there is a small, circular chondrule that has a thick, igneous rim of, well, I guess olivine (vivid purplish red) and pyroxene (blue tints ... pigeonite ???). Between this chondrule and an even smaller chondrule right of center (tiny BO chondrule???), there is a conglomerate of what may have been one or several large BO chondrules (chondrule fragments). This causes a bit of headache because, if this is or was a large BO chondrule, I wouldn't rule out an L chondrite as H chondrites tend to have smaller chondrules! Right above center, there is what looks like a POP (porphyritic olivine-pyroxene) chondrule about the same size as the one in the nine o'clock position. The overall texture is that of a recrystallized chondrite (H5 or H6, L5 or L6) but as the chondrule in the 9 o'clock position is relatively unaltered as is the small one right of center, I'd say it might be an H5 or an L5. Best wishes, Bernd (who neither owns Cali nor Carancas) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas with slickensides?
Back on Oct. 3, Elton (Mr EMan) posted saying that the shock veins in Carancas were not shock veins but slickensides, and cited his reasons for thinking so. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 4:47 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Carancas with slickensides? Hello again, Please, take a close look (and enlarge if possible) Mike Farmer's picture (page 3, first picture) of the pieces he collected or acquired. Right below the largest fragment that weighs approximately 38 grams (according to Mike's own comment), there are three relatively large pieces in the 6 o'clock position. Just a tad above the two on the left (roughly 7 o'clock), there is a much smaller, blocky piece that looks striated. Could that be slickensides, which would testify to the enormous stress that this stone was exposed to?! Bernd http://meteoriteguy.com/carancasfallexpedition2.htm __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Randall joke on ebay!
Hi, A search of the user name on eBay US site turns up this less than detailed listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=3810item=300158570494 Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: ensoramanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 9:14 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Randall joke on ebay! Ok...who is the one with the sense of humour after the carancas fragment on ebay...bidding here :-) Made me laugh anyway. http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidsitem=180167268481 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event
). --- end --- The pictures in the article are pretty good. One of them, showing a big shape of the free metal phase looks almost the same as a photo I've seen of Portales: http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/Sept05/PSRD-PortalesValley.pdf There is also a big jpeg microphoto (800+Kb) at http://fcpn.umsa.bo/fcpn/app?service=external/PublicationDownloadsp=232 Very detailed; I would call it high resolution. Interesting rock. Obviously, it has been shocked all to hell and not in landing (this time), full of fractures and fissures on every scale, numerous breaks, with what I think is their description of impact melt, and is 7-8% glasses. I'm not sure what they mean by glasses, but to me it says that this rock has had a rough life history, a hot time in the old solar system... Please, Listo-Petrologists, comment! Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:37 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event Hello list members, I have just reached the Carancas' publication list site in Peru: http://fcpn.umsa.bo/fcpn/app?service=page/Planetarium_PublicationList where some articles have already been introduced by some list members, but the rest ones are not introduced yet and seem indeed interesting, although I cannot understand Spanish at all. Does anyone translate and introduce their summary? Best wishes, Katsu OHTSUKA Tokyo, JAPAN __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
Hi, I downloaded all the publications on the site (URL below) and started translating then, but... One is the earlier analysis which I already translated and posted a week ago. The two PowerPoint presentations are general presentations of craters (very nicely done, BTW -- muy bueno!) but don't mention Carancas. One is a press-release style .pdf that describes the event and spends a lot of time explaining what a meteorite is, that they come from the asteroids, that there are craters elsewhere on the planet, that the world is not ending, the usual... There are a few more .pdf are press releases. The only document with any specifics is their physical estimates of the impact and such, all taken from playing with the LPI online Impact Calculator; I recognize the language! Like I haven't already done that 300 times this last week (and you too). And if you're keeping score, the Bolivians (unlike the Peruvians) got the Universal Time of the event right. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:37 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event Hello list members, I have just reached the Carancas' publication list site in Peru: http://fcpn.umsa.bo/fcpn/app?service=page/Planetarium_PublicationList where some articles have already been introduced by some list members, but the rest ones are not introduced yet and seem indeed interesting, although I cannot understand Spanish at all. Does anyone translate and introduce their summary? Best wishes, Katsu OHTSUKA Tokyo, JAPAN __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Headlines: Mike Farmer beats Randall, claims record. - News at 11:00
Hi, This is beneath you... The logical flaw here is that is any beneath beneath the pseudonomynous Randall-of-the-many-names. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Michael L Blood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dr. Richard (Dick) Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Art [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Bjorn Sorheim [EMAIL PROTECTED]; M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED]; drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Alexander Seidel [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jeff Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED]; E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Notkin [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Piper R.W. Hollier [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Haag [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jason Utas [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Randy Korotev [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Bob WALKER [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Verish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:32 PM Subject: Re: Headlines: Mike Farmer beats Randall, claims record. - News at 11:00 Randall, This is beneath you. Sincerely, Michael on 10/9/07 2:05 AM, Dr. Richard (Dick) Daniels at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dr. Dick here, I gots a another one for you folks to pass around. When Mr. Farmer heard they was folks a pisssing in the crater. He was furious. He said I gonna show dem pigs. So Mike proceeded to take a dump. As he squated to clense his colon and cried I did it. I finally beat Randall. He said to the photographer make sure you get a shit, whoops I mean shot. Our boy Mike, also said hahahahaha, I beat Randall nah nah nah nah nah. But moments later Mike heard from one of the locals that Randall got sick on Coca leaves and barfed in the crater, thus upsurping mike so called prize winna. Mike was devustated. When I told Dat idiot. Randall said Good thing the cops weren't looking, I think that's illegal in Peru. Wat the fuk does he know?! Da Jerk. Ya wanna know what dat idiot said again, dat stupid lyer. Randall told me he is a Microsoft Certified Professional. What a lyer. Just like the tyme he told me he was a skydiver,scuba diver,helicopter pilot in Vietnam. Wat a friggin lyer! Dat fool. http://www.meteoriteguy.com/index But ya know, dats only the way I herd it. Could be miss taken. Randall will say Stop spamming the list. Ya no what I would say to dat fool. I'd say, stay off the leaves, ya stupid crackhead -- God doesn't look at how much we do, but with how much love we do it. Mother Teresa -- When Jesus said, Love your enemies I think he probably meant don't kill them. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] temps
Hi, By 1200 C, almost all rocks are molten. Olivine, pyroxene, and Ca-rich plagioclase at 1000 C. Ca/Na plagioclase at 800 C. and Na-plagioclase at 600 C. Iron, however, does not melt unit 1538 C. and Fe-Ni-Cr alloys at still higher temperatures. The temperature of high velocity ablative plasma easily reaches and far exceeds these temperatures. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: mckinney trammell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 3:56 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] temps what is the temperature at which the surface of a skyrock forms fusion crust? Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545433 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
Hi, After reading through those other documents on the Major University of San Andres website and concluding that they contained nothing we didn't already know, I realized I hadn't read the footnotes in the one article that had footnotes, and indeed I found one new piece of information in those footnotes: one local inhabitant of Carancas, Don Gregorio Iruri, was standing only 300 meters from the point of impact at the time of the impact. That's all, a one-sentence footnote. It astounds me that an investigator, scientific or otherwise, had located an eye-witness to as rare an event as a cosmic impact but did not ask questions nor collect his story! What did it look like? What did it sound like? Was there a flash of light? How bright was it? How strong was the shock wave? How strong was the wind from the blast? Was he knocked down? Rolled over? Or did he stay on his feet? Was he deafened, even slightly? And about 1000 other questions... The closest living witness to a cosmic impact among the planet's 6.6 billion people and no one asked him to describe it? Makes me wonder how justified the second term of the biological name Homo sapiens is. Maybe we should all just stand around dumbly like cows. Oh, wait! -- we do. [In all fairness, the witness may have been so shaken as to not have had a coherent story, but even that fact is useful information. They say in reference to Don Iruri only this: ...podemos concluir que esa estructura tiene la típica característica de un cráter explosivo. Or, ...we were able to conclude that this structure has the typical characteristics of an explosive crater. So he must have described an explosion. Details would be nice.] Close witness information would probably make it possible to determine the magnitude of the blast within closer limits than at present. The Peruvian seismic measurement was 5 tons TNT. Chris Peterson has suggested airblast effects exaggerate ground readings and that 1 to 2 tons TNT is more reasonable. Now, Brown suggests 30 tons TNT as a measurement. It's possible Don Iruri's story could narrow that down... if anybody had asked him. The LPI Impact Calculator uses the figure of an overpressure of 1 pound per sq. inch as a nominally perceptible blast force (about equal to an instantaneous gust of 35 mph wind). I tried using the equations from: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm for air-fuel explosions, an event quite similar to an impact vaporization. [We are considering only pressure effects, not flying debris nor any other possible results.] The results are that one finds the distance at which one would experience an overpressure of 1 pound per sq. inch from a one ton TNT explosion is 158 meters, from a 5 ton event is 270 meters, but from a 30 ton event is 490 meters and from a one kiloton event is 1500 meters. [Caveat: every actual blast is different, affected by surface materials, reflected waves, and a long list of modifiers, including the unknown efficiency of kinetic energy conversion in this impact, so these estimates above have a potential 2-fold error in distance.] Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hello Sterling, Thank you for letting me know your translation of the Bolivian publications, which is very interesting. Just before, I visited http://spaceweather.com/, where another latest infrasound analysis of the Peruvian event by Peter Brown (Univ. W. Ontario) is introduced. His team estimated the kinetic energy of the impactor about 0.03 kton TNT. Best wishes, Kastu - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Rob Matson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hi, I downloaded all the publications on the site (URL below) and started translating then, but... One is the earlier analysis which I already translated and posted a week ago. The two PowerPoint presentations are general presentations of craters (very nicely done, BTW -- muy bueno!) but don't mention Carancas. One is a press-release style .pdf that describes the event and spends a lot of time explaining what a meteorite is, that they come from the asteroids, that there are craters elsewhere on the planet, that the world is not ending, the usual... There are a few more .pdf are press releases. The only document with any specifics is their physical estimates of the impact and such, all taken from playing with the LPI online Impact Calculator; I recognize the language! Like I haven't already done that 300 times this last week
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
Hi, Jan, List, http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5isWWHSxCh_u0yUNU9Gpk1qfg996A ...More details emerged when astrophysicist Jose Ishitsuka of Peru's Geophysics Institute reached the site about 6 miles from Lake Titicaca. He confirmed that a meteorite caused a crater 42 feet wide and 15 feet deep, the institute's president, Ronald Woodman, told The Associated Press on Thursday. Ishitsuka recovered a 3-inch magnetic fragment and said it contained iron, a mineral found in all rocks from space. The impact also registered a magnitude-1.5 tremor on the institute's seismic equipment - that's as much as an explosion of 4.9 tons of dynamite, Woodman said. Local residents described a fiery ball falling from the sky and smashing into the desolate Andean plain... The IGP has been quoted in the Peruvian press as essentially making the claim that they, rather than INGEMMET, should be in charge of the meteorite, its recovery and preservation. It is possible to interpret the term a fiery ball falling from the sky as meaning that the object was in ablative flight all the way to the ground (has been observed elsewhere, so not impossible). That would mean an impact velocity equal to or greater than 2000 meters/second. 5 TNT tons energy = 21,000,000,000 joules. At 2000 m/s, it would require a 10,500 kilo (10.5 ton) impactor. Some might say that's unlikely. A one TNT ton impact at 2000 m/s would need only a 2 ton impactor, and so on You can fiddle with these figures yourself. Here's the kinetic energy calculator: http://www.csgnetwork.com/kineticenergycalc.html and the Megaton (TNT) joules converter: http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/joules-to-megatons-conversion.html Or, one gram of TNT = 4184 Joules.[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaton Crash a few bolides! Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Jan Hattenbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL The Peruvian seismic measurement was 5 tons TNT. This may sound odd, but where is that number from? I was talking to a geologist of the University of Arequipa, and he told me that they did record nothing at the time of the event. Regards, jan -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: 10.10.07 00:02:42 An: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hi, After reading through those other documents on the Major University of San Andres website and concluding that they contained nothing we didn't already know, I realized I hadn't read the footnotes in the one article that had footnotes, and indeed I found one new piece of information in those footnotes: one local inhabitant of Carancas, Don Gregorio Iruri, was standing only 300 meters from the point of impact at the time of the impact. That's all, a one-sentence footnote. It astounds me that an investigator, scientific or otherwise, had located an eye-witness to as rare an event as a cosmic impact but did not ask questions nor collect his story! What did it look like? What did it sound like? Was there a flash of light? How bright was it? How strong was the shock wave? How strong was the wind from the blast? Was he knocked down? Rolled over? Or did he stay on his feet? Was he deafened, even slightly? And about 1000 other questions... The closest living witness to a cosmic impact among the planet's 6.6 billion people and no one asked him to describe it? Makes me wonder how justified the second term of the biological name Homo sapiens is. Maybe we should all just stand around dumbly like cows. Oh, wait! -- we do. [In all fairness, the witness may have been so shaken as to not have had a coherent story, but even that fact is useful information. They say in reference to Don Iruri only this: ...podemos concluir que esa estructura tiene la típica característica de un cráter explosivo. Or, ...we were able to conclude that this structure has the typical characteristics of an explosive crater. So he must have described an explosion. Details would be nice.] Chris Peterson has suggested airblast effects exaggerate ground readings and that 1 to 2 tons TNT is more reasonable. Now, Brown suggests 30 tons TNT as a measurement. It's possible Don Iruri's story could narrow that down... if anybody had asked him. The LPI Impact Calculator uses the figure of an overpressure of 1 pound per sq. inch as a nominally perceptible blast force (about equal to an instantaneous gust of 35 mph wind). I tried using the equations from: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm for air-fuel explosions, an event quite similar to an impact vaporization. [We are considering only pressure
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
Hi, All The tiniest details yield important information. If a multiplicity of witnesses described a bright flash, then there is no doubt there was a thermal event that generated enough heat to produce not a red glow nor a yellow light but a bright flash. That's an explosion, a vaporization event, a big one. No object that remains intact generates ANY light at all on impact, no matter how big or small it is. If you assume the force needed to knock a man down at 300 meters away is the equivalent to a 60 or 70 mph gust of wind, that would require a minimum of a 20 ton TNT impact; possibly 30, like Brown says. It may have been only the less energetic vaporization of the 5% to 8% of the meteorite that was troilite that was the bright flash, rather than the vaporization of the entire stone. Still, that alone would have been more than enough of an explosion to shatter the impactor to fragments (or dust). Strangely enough, Peter Brown, who published the 30 ton TNT impact estimate, says odds are good a multi-ton monster lurks at the bottom of the crater. I say strangely because a slow survivable fall (at a subsonic speed of 300 meters/second) of 30 tons TNT impact energy would require a 2800 TON impactor (that's only a mere 6,200,000 pounds!). Assuming a density of 2.5, that would be a stone ball 40 feet in diameter, about the same size as the crater itself! Didcha see any 40-foot stone balls lying around Carancas? Maybe it rolled off... The only thing I can figure is that the sheer romantic lure of a monster meteorite waiting to be discovered and raised from the dark depths of the crater overwhelms the little gray cells of everybody involved. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jan Hattenbach [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Jan, I interviewed many people, most saw the fall, saw a bright flash a small mushroom cloud of steam/dust that came up and lingered for some time. Everyone felt the grond shake, and heard huge explosion. As the meteorite came overhead, there was a painful sound of a jet engine, only much louder is how most people described it. One man said he was blown down be the blast, could be the same guy. The sounds were loud enough to break windows in Desaguadero and Carancas, and the impact shook the ground like an earthquake. Surely this impact would show up on seismic. One note though, there are large mines on the Bolivian side of the border, perhaps they blat a lot so seismic may not be noticed as much if that is the case. Michael Farmer --- Jan Hattenbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Peruvian seismic measurement was 5 tons TNT. This may sound odd, but where is that number from? I was talking to a geologist of the University of Arequipa, and he told me that they did record nothing at the time of the event. Regards, jan -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: 10.10.07 00:02:42 An: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hi, After reading through those other documents on the Major University of San Andres website and concluding that they contained nothing we didn't already know, I realized I hadn't read the footnotes in the one article that had footnotes, and indeed I found one new piece of information in those footnotes: one local inhabitant of Carancas, Don Gregorio Iruri, was standing only 300 meters from the point of impact at the time of the impact. That's all, a one-sentence footnote. It astounds me that an investigator, scientific or otherwise, had located an eye-witness to as rare an event as a cosmic impact but did not ask questions nor collect his story! What did it look like? What did it sound like? Was there a flash of light? How bright was it? How strong was the shock wave? How strong was the wind from the blast? Was he knocked down? Rolled over? Or did he stay on his feet? Was he deafened, even slightly? And about 1000 other questions... The closest living witness to a cosmic impact among the planet's 6.6 billion people and no one asked him to describe it? Makes me wonder how justified the second term of the biological name Homo sapiens is. Maybe we should all just stand around dumbly like cows. Oh, wait! -- we do. [In all fairness, the witness may have been so shaken as to not have had a coherent story, but even that fact is useful information. They say in reference to Don Iruri only this: ...podemos concluir que esa estructura tiene la típica característica de un cráter explosivo. Or, ...we were
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
Hi, Yes, the fact that the dissociation of the troilite would explain the strange odors and reported illnesses convinces me that it got at least that hot. Troilite's vapor point is 700 K. or 427 C. and it would dissociate immediately in the presence of water or even just humidity. That even sets a lower limit to the heat produced by the impact. It could always have generated more heat than that. At impact, the kinetic energy of the stone goes from being potential energy to being thermal energy. The entire object's temperature is instantly increased. The troilite goes from a cold solid to a hot vapor and in so doing expands many times in volume... or tries to. I haven't worked out the actual ratio of increase because you don't have to. ALL solid to gas transitions increase volume and/or pressure by a huge factor; that's how explosives work. So, no big rock in the mudpit, but maybe lots of fragments. Recovering them would tell you a lot. The stuff found outside the crater was blasted off the backside of the object by the shock of the impact and wasn't subjected to the full heating. But stuff from inside the crater would reveal whether there was any rock melt, or even rock vaporization. Thermal alteration would establish how hot it got and that would let you calculate the impact speed very reasonably. A total absence of fragments is unlikely. There would be some of the free iron from the meteorite at a minimum, even if the rock was pulverized. Water appears to be moving through the crater, though; it's in a riverbed. Material is being washed away constantly. It may be too late, or perhaps only heavy items will remain. And the rainy season is coming, as Mike tried to point out to the local authorities. You can only do what you can do. It's been almost a month. I wonder how long it will take the Peruvians to mobilize? Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Charlie Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL You wrote: It may have been only the less energetic vaporization of the 5% to 8% of the meteorite that was troilite that was the bright flash rather then the vaporization of the entire stone. Still, that alone would have been enough to shatter the impactor into fragments (or dust). If that were the scenario, would an observation posted to the list on 10/5 by Piper R. W. Hollier seem a reasonable expectation: Troilite dissociates at high temperatures (e.g. hypersonic impact), releasing hot sulphur vapor, which in turn will oxidize in air to form sulphur dioxide, a very irritating poison. At the time Piper's theory as to why all the sickness was reported seemed to me to be the best explanation for the reports. Would the above scenario support that notion? Charlie D. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mysterious Circular Structure Near Chemult, Oregon
Hi, All, The hot spot is technically a place where there is more vulcanism that would be expected, usually a spot that's not on a plate boundary but in the middle of a plate, and produces way too much volcanic activity for that location, or an unexplained elevation. One theory to account for many hotspots is called the mantle plume theory. They persist for geologically long times. Hawai'i is believed to sit on a plume because of the chain of Emperor Seamounts stretching on an arc to the NW. Active mantle plumes often have caldera volcanoes atop them. Hawai'i is a low-silica caldera, it's not as explosive and violent as the usual caldera volcano. It considered a good case for the mantle plume theory. The Yellowstone Valley is not a valley; it's an ancient high-silica caldera volcano. When Yellowstone Caldera (last) erupted 640,000 years ago, it released 1,000 cubic kilometers of material (800 times as much as the Mt. St. Helens eruption) that covered all of North America in up to two meters of debris. That plume is moving too, and will reach Iowa someday. I predict Trouble, right here in River City (as the song goes). Mantle plumes are believed to be produced by the interior conditions at the core-mantle boundary and not by any exterior event (like an impact). But at the same time, they are invoked to explain flood basalt events (like the Deccan Traps or the Siberian Traps), which out-do anything the worst volcano can do, and only happen once every many tens of millions of years, and -- uh-oh! -- at the same time as really major impacts. Not all geologists like the mantle plume theory, and meteorite impacts is one of a number of alternative theories. That area (Oregon) is home to considerable traces of a relatively recent flood basalt event, the Columbia River Flood Basalt Province of Idaho, Washington and Oregon: http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/crb.html although the round feature is just outside the Province of those flood basalts. Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotspot_%28geology%29 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle_plume One test of a crater is its relative depth. Others are the lifted or up-turned rim, the presence of shatter-cones, traces of an ejecta blanket, shocked rocks in the crater, the presence of highly shocked minerals (coesite), signs of a central uplift (if it's big enough to have one). And, an impact that produced vulcanism would be obliterated by the lavas it released, so proving that is kind of a problem. Good hunting! Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Stefan Brandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:50 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mysterious Circular Structure Near Chemult,Oregon Cool news ie. impact causing HOT SPOT. So Cool. If we generalize [which I presume we must not without scientific data to support the supposition] Yellowstone, Sunset Crater, etc. are all impact sites caused when the crust was so deeply wounded the mantle material persists in melting whatever crustal material attempts to scab the wound! SUPER COOL!! Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stefan Brandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mysterious Circular Structure Near Chemult, Oregon Looks like something fun to check out either way. I've been meaning to get over and explore that general area. Of course it would have to be pretty obvious for me to notice anything :-) By the way, I have heard a theory that there was a large strike at some point in central Oregon causing a hot spot in the mantle (?) which has since migrated through the Snake River plain in southern Idaho and now lies beneath Yellowstone National Park resulting in all of the geothermal activity in that area. Thanks for sharing! Phil Interesting formation : http://epod.usra.edu/archive/epodviewer.php3?oid=382976 any ideas? Stefan __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mysterious Circular Structure Near Chemult, Oregon
Hi, A kind of footnote to my previous Post: the elevations of the round feature are highly inconsistent. Much of the rim is hundreds of feet lower than the highest spot inside the rim, and almost none of the rim is higher than the interior. The rim is higher than the surrounding general terrain in most places. The rim has a braided topography, another un-crater-like feature and it seems that the feature is elevated as a whole above the surrounding terrain, not a likely thing for a crater to be. The center of the crater has both high and low areas close to each other. The elevations are complex and hard to interpret. The closer I zoom in, the less like a relict crater it looks to me. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stefan Brandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mysterious Circular Structure Near Chemult, Oregon Looks like something fun to check out either way. I've been meaning to get over and explore that general area. Of course it would have to be pretty obvious for me to notice anything :-) By the way, I have heard a theory that there was a large strike at some point in central Oregon causing a hot spot in the mantle (?) which has since migrated through the Snake River plain in southern Idaho and now lies beneath Yellowstone National Park resulting in all of the geothermal activity in that area. Thanks for sharing! Phil Interesting formation : http://epod.usra.edu/archive/epodviewer.php3?oid=382976 any ideas? Stefan __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Comets are made of antimatter
Hi, Darren, List, Obviously a mineral dealer grabbing what he could find on the internet: the University of San Andres report, the INGEMMET report, and so forth. In his haste, he seems to have mistakenly dipped into a bag of crispy, crunchy Whack-O's. Nice little stone. Notice how many of the stones we have seen pictured so far have at least one patch of the material, crust-or- slickenside? If crust, then almost every pictured stone was at the outside of the monster meteorite; if slickenside, then almost every pictured stone shattered at that boundary feature, be it shock vein or slickenside. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 5:59 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Comets are made of antimatter At least, according to this guy. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=170158107459 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Scientific Value of Carancas Crater Research
Hi, Bernd, List, You are right about the terraced look of the Carancas crater! It seems to show best in the earliest photos; I suspect some dirt from the rim has cascaded down the walls in the intervening days. True terracing only occurs in large impact craters. After formation, the walls of the crater become unstable (because they're so steep), and gravity causes them to collapse. These landslides create a blocky appearance, forming steps down to the crater floor. It's more common in large older craters. I believe the terraced appearance of the walls of the Carancas crater is due to the rocky strata in the soil being broken by the explosive excavation of the crater. The terraces seem to step back at the 30 degree angle of the crater walls. The INGEMMET summary characterizes the geology of the region as Cenozoic limestone and mentions relatively weak stones: sedimentary rocks (molasses or red beds: siltstones, shales and slates) There appear to be some blocky stones in the pictures of the fresh ejecta blanket. Mike Farmer talked about blocks of hard dirt landing on rooves. It's possible the two are the same (weak stone, hard dirt). Mike thinks there's a one-ton stone in the crater and the Canadian scientist Peter Brown is talking about a ten-ton monster, while I really doubt that there's anything much to be found in the crater. I've been told by someone who was there that the Carancas stones are extremely weak, that by pressing two together in one hand, you can crush [them] to dust. That does not sound like material that would survive any substantial impact force. Whether the event was equivalent to 1 ton of TNT, 5 tons (seismic reading), or 15-20 tons (as Peter Brown suggests) doesn't matter if they're that weak. Yes, this IS a crater worthy of study. And with every passing day, that seems less and less likely to happen. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 1:56 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Scientific Value of Carancas Crater Research Hello List, After repeatedly scrutinizing the available crater pictures of the Carancas crater and trying to find out what is so exciting about it, I've come to the conclusion that it looks pretty much like the terraced walls of several lunar craters - for example: Tycho or Copernicus. While it would be (or: would have been) extremely important to retrieve the main mass at the bottom of the crater as quickly as possible, it may also be a serious mistake not to document, study and examine each and every detail of this crater-forming event! Carancassically, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Scientific Value of Carancas Crater Research
Hi, All, The notion that an impactor survives somehow to lurk beneath the floor of a crater is a pervasive and common notion that seems to have the power to cloud men's minds and keep them digging and drilling. Daniel Moreau Barringer, owner of the Meteor Crater, exhausted his life on the crusade to mine the meteorite, drilling as deep as 1400 feet into the floor of the crater. A piece on the remarkable drilling efforts Barringer undertook in the crater, by James Tobin: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~afs/feb97_1.html The work at the Arizona crater would continue for more than two decades, even beyond Barringer's death in 1929. But, even by the time of his 1909 paper there had already been 28 holes drilled into the floor of the crater. Fourteen of these revealed nickel iron oxide material at various depths below 450 feet. At the same time the numbered shafts at the crater had already reached into the forties. Add to this the dozens of trenches and pits being dug almost constantly into the ejecta blanket and this becomes a staggering project. It's a long and fascinating article. Tobin himself is convinced that some meteoritic masses remain below the crater floor. In another fascinating article: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/February/Jims_Fragments.htm ...it is clear only a few percent of the original mass remains. Most of the asteroid was indeed vaporized, later condensing to form the billions of small spheres found in the soil around the crater. Barringer and Tilghman knew about the spheres from the beginning of their work. But, thought them to be tiny droplets that streamed from the burning asteroid as it plunged through the atmosphere. Even as evidence mounted that the asteroid could not have survived intact, Barringer found ways to think it was there. In 1938, even Time magazine had an opinion on the formation of Meteor Crater! Here's a fascinating look at how little was known of craters, meteorites, and impacts back then: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,931100,00.html Here's what they thought the mechanism of crater formation was: the monstrous cluster [of meteors] plunged into the desert, converted underground water into steam, hurled huge gobs of earth and stone skyward to fall back into the crater. This in an article about investors that were still scheming to recover the millions of tons of precious meteorite buried under the crater. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 4:29 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Scientific Value of Carancas Crater Research Sterling wrote: That does not sound like material that would survive any substantial impact force. Yes, that may unfortunately be right. Much or most of it may have been vaporized or been reduced to dust and what has been collected may be comparable to what has been found around Barringer Crater (Coone Butte) where any search for the main mass down in the crater has so far remained futile! .. sayeth Bernd who meanwhile owns two small but representative pieces of that noteworthy meteorite ;-) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Peru Again!! Ubinas, Peru volcanic bomb block crater- Smithsonian Institution-INGEMMETstudy
Hi, Dirk, List, The picture of the 2-meter bomb shows there no distinction between an impact pit (which is what this is) and a true crater, formed by an explosion. The shape (but not the size) is the same for both. The object's mass is up to 10 tons, but the velocity was low, probably no more than 100 m/sec (depends on how high it was tossed out of the volacano). A pit is a low-energy event; a crater is not, but the shape's the same. The geometry of the pit or crater is very close to that perfect conical shape of the mathematical crater models with their 3:1 width-to-depth. But since it's the energy that determines the crater, you could have gotten the same crater that was produced by ten tons at 100 m/sec with 100 kilos at 1000 m/sec, or 1 kilo at 10,000 m/sec. It's a picture like this that demonstrates the true silliness of the idea that a ten-ton monster is hiding in the Carancas crater. The URL's a picture of a ten-meter crater (OK, pit) with a ten ton impactor sitting in it. Does it look to you like it's hiding? I think we'd have noticed a ten-monster in Carancas... if it was intact! Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Peru Again!! Ubinas,Peru volcanic bomb block crater- Smithsonian Institution-INGEMMETstudy Hi List, Thought some of you might be interested in seeing another crater in Peru. Take a look at the photo page at least! Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo Main Page: http://www.volcano.si.edu/reports/bulletin/contents.cfm?issue=3110display=complete Photo: http://www.volcano.si.edu/volcanoes/region15/peru/ubinas/3110ubi7.jpg Figure 14. Ubinas eruptions in May 2006 ejected volcanic bombs, seen here in their impact craters. A 2-m-diameter bomb (top), struck ~ 200 m from the crater. A crater containing a large, partly buried, smooth-faced bomb is seen in the bottom photo. Numerous bucket-sized angular blocks appear on the far side of the impact crater. Two geologists stand adjacent a ~ 2-m-long block that ended up on the impact crater's rim. The bomb fragments were of andesitic composition. Top photo from Salazar and others (2006); bottom photo from INGEMMET website. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas vs. Canyon Diablo?
Hi, I wasn't making a comparison between Carancas Crater and Meteor Crater and invoking any similarity -- vastly different events. But I was putting the case of D. M. Barringer forward as an example of the strength of the psychological attraction to the idea of the survival of the meteorite body. Some people just want it to be so, against all evidence. G. K. Gilbert, who first investigated Meteor Crater, understood very quickly the true course of what happened there; Barringer never accepted it. All of Barringer's co- workers resigned themselves to the evidence of vaporization eventually. It was always obvious to Nininger. I'm just pointing out that psychological phenomenon. There is no evidence of a gentle impact in Carancas, and plenty of evidence of an energetic thermal event. The chances of any survival of the impactor seem very small. 1. The odors, fumes, noxious vapors, etc. reported by all the witnesses (who may well have reacted hysterically to them) are easily explained by the vaporization of the troilite (5% of the stone), an event that requires temperatures in excess of 700 degrees K. Dissociation of the troilite is more or less automatic if it vaporizes in the terrestrial environment. This vapor explosion would be quite sufficient to eliminate the impactor. Note that 700 K. is only a minimum thermal level; it could be more energetic. 2. The various witness reports: a man knocked over at 300 meters, an event that requires a high level of overpressure; windows broken in Desaguadero, 10,800 meters away; two domestic animals, closer than 300 meters, killed by the blast (gentle impacts do not have kill zones); a universally observed mushroom cloud (!) -- none of it suggests a soft landing to me. 3. The extreme weakness of the stone (you can break it in your hand using only human muscles) makes the survival of pieces in the pit very unlikely in an event with the above characteristics. It's too late at night for furious calculation, but the energy required to pulverize this impactor is tiny compared to that of even the most modest and moderate impact. Doug, there is no set percentage for back spall. Since it is caused by the shock wave of initial impact passing back through the impactor, it depends on a) the speed of the impact, and b) the strength of the stone. We don't know that speed; we do know the stone is very weak, but there's no way of back-calculating from the recovered extra-crater mass to the mass of the impactor (drat!). Rob, the absence of any evidence of fragmentation puzzles me as much as it seems to you. How could a big object of such friable material NOT drop numerous secondaries? There should be some evidence of a shower, a kind of miniature Holbrook over Peru, but there isn't. This stuff should have disintegrated in flight. But no witness mentions fragmentations, dropping pieces, etc. There are no secondary pits, no reports of material found in nearby locations, and the rest of it. By now, it's safe to assume the locals (who range widely since they are pastoralists) would notice and recognize more meteorites if they found them. The only explanation I can think of is that it was a very, very steep descent and there was little angular separation of any fragments (and I ain't happy with that, myself, but it's all I got). The only thing I said about the dimensions of the crater or pit is that they appear to be classic (3:1, 30 degree slope, etc.). If it's an explosive crater, it's easy to calculate the kinetic energy required. If it's a mass displacement pit, we need to see a really big object sitting in it... really big. If you think the impact speed was slowly subsonic, we need a 10 or 20 ton object to excavate the 350+ tons that were removed from the crater and spread in an ejecta blanket that covers 500,000 square meters. (Good sized pit, eh?) Visually, after the fact, there is little if anything to show whether a hole in the ground is a crater or a pit, whether it was hot or not, whether it was small and moving fast or big and moving slow. An obvious relict multi-ton meteorite, Brown's ten-ton monster, would, but I don't see one. A crater this size isn't going to produce the flashy stuff that big craters do. And an impact event tends to erase its own history and delete its own data. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Rob Matson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 2:19 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas vs. Canyon Diablo? Hi Rob, Sterling and List, Thanks for the reality check Rob, a.k.a. that pesky detail called conservation of mass that insists on being respected even in sexy mudpits. Sterling, what % is spalled backwards in these (much-to-be-desired) models of such low-end impact energies in somewhat amortizing soils? For argument
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas unprecedented Fame ?
Hi, Bob, List, Mike Farmer wrote here on the List (10-09-07): I interviewed many people, most saw the fall, saw a bright flash, a small mushroom cloud of steam/dust that came up and lingered for some time. Everyone felt the grond shake, and heard huge explosion. As the meteorite came overhead, there was a painful sound of a jet engine, only much louder is how most people described it. One man said he was blown down be the blast, could be the same guy. The sounds were loud enough to break windows in Desaguadero and Carancas, and the impact shook the ground like an earthquake. Yes, first of all, one local inhabitant of Carancas, Don Gregorio Iruri, was standing only 300 meters from the point of impact at the time of the impact. He was knocked flat. This was reported by the Bolivian team two days after the impact. I suppose the guy Mike talked to was Don Gregorio (or Mr. Lucky, as I call him). Two grazing animals, nearer to the impact than 300 meters, were apparently killed, but that has been harder to substantiate. But there's nothing inherently impossible about it. I can absolutely tell you I wouldn't want any closer look than about 500 meters (with a telephoto lens) if I could have been there... Remember, if there's enough shock to flatten you at 300 meters, there's 9 times as much shock at only 100 meters. How hard is it to kill sheep? If you want to know what kills people, you ask the folks whose job it is to kill people: http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001969.html An instantaneous explosive overpressure of 50 psi [pounds per square inch] is needed to kill. But one sustained for a fraction of a second at 10 psi is also lethal. I've been trying to scale the overpressure that would knock a man flat at 300 meters with the size of explosion required, but am stymied by the fact that all the tables of overpressure and distance are based on nuclear airbursts and a meteorite impact is a ground burst, and so far I can't calculate the explosive force. Working on it. There's lots of photos of the house with the whonk in the roof, so no proof problem there. Sterling - Original Message - From: Bob Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:43 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Carancas unprecedented Fame ? According to this guy , not only did the Carancas mass create a crater and hit a manmade dwelling but also killed a Llama and a sheep. Any credibility to these claims? http://cgi.ebay.com/CARANCAS-PERU-METEORITE-1GRAM-ROBERT-A-HAAG-COLLECTION_W0QQitemZ280164123173QQihZ018QQcategoryZ3239QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hi, A 10-ton (2 meter sphere) object impacting at 2 km/s produces the equivalent of 4.78 tons of TNT. The seismic measurement in Peru by the IGP was 4.9 tons of TNT. It would seem to me that a parent object big enough to cough up a ten-ton hairball might have left other chunks scattered about the Altiplano. They can't all have gone into the Lake. I still have trouble with the notion that 20,000 pounds of meteorite survives in the crater. On the other hand, if the impact spread all of the 20,000 pounds out over the full reported area of the ejecta blanket, it works out to 8 milligrams (0.008 grams) of dust per square centimeter, an amount so tiny you'd hardly notice it, except near the rim, where people did notice and collect it. Is it a clever meteorite, hiding in plain sight? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:08 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Interesting. This supports my belief that this was a relatively low energy impact- a 2 meter object traveling at 1-2 km/s, not ablating. A larger parent exploded in the air, contributing to or fully producing the measured infrasound and seismic signal. A fragment survived and produced the crater. The parent body protected that fragment, just as the Sikhote-Alin fragments were protected by being part of a much larger body until the last few seconds. I expect the estimate of the explosion being 1km from the witness is on the short side; several kilometers is more likely, and there's little doubt that most people are totally incapable of accurately judging the distance to an event like this. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 9:35 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Hi, All, I've found a Spanish document of an interview with an inhabitant of Carancas, in particular their local leader. He was interviewed in his native language, Aymara, by a native Aymara speaker who has translated the interview into Spanish... __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hi, Doug, While on a trip to another village, Nasrudin lost his favorite copy of the Qur'an. Several weeks later, a goat walked up to Nasrudin, carrying the Qur'an in its mouth. Nasrudin couldn't believe his eyes. He took the precious book out of the goat's mouth, raised his eyes heavenward and exclaimed, It's a miracle! It's a miracle! Not really, said the goat. Your name and address is written inside the cover. That, and 49 others at: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Nasrudin Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasreddin More tales (and some of the same) at: http://www.afghan-network.net/Funny/1.html More tales at: http://www.immediex.com/mullanasrudin.html An entire book of Nasrudin at Project Guetenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16244 That should keep you Nasrudinized for a while. But before I sign off, let me tell you a little story about Nasrudin The Smuggler... Nasrudin the smuggler was leading a donkey that had bundles of straw on its back. An experienced border inspector spotted Nasrudin coming to his border. Halt, the inspector said. What is your business here? I am an honest smuggler! replied Nasrudin. Oh, really? said the inspector. Well, let me search those straw bundles. If I find something in them, then you are required to pay a border fee! Do as you wish, Nasrudin replied, but you will not find anything in those bundles. The inspector intensively searched and took apart the bundles, but could not find a single thing in them. He turned to Nasrudin and said, You have managed to get one by me today. You may pass the border. Nasrudin crossed the border with his donkey while the annoyed inspector looked on. And then the very next day, Nasrudin once again came to the border with a straw-carrying donkey. The inspector saw Nasrudin coming and thought, I'll get him for sure this time. He checked the bundles of straw again, and then searched through Nasrudin's clothing, and even went through the donkey's harness. But once again he came up empty handed and had to let Nasrudin pass. This same pattern continued every day for several years, and every day Nasrudin wore more and more extravagant clothing and jewelry that indicated he was getting wealthier. Eventually, the inspector retired from his longtime job, but even in retirement he still wondered about the man with the straw-carrying donkey. I should have checked that donkey's mouth more extensively, he thought to himself. Or maybe he hid something in the donkey's rectum. Then one day he spotted Nasrudin's face in a crowd. Hey, the inspector said, I know you! You are that man who came to my border everyday for all those years with a straw-carrying donkey. Please, sir, I must talk to you. Nasrudin came towards him and the inspector continued talking. My friend, I always wondered what you were smuggling past my border everyday. Just between you and me, you must tell me. I must know. I have to know. No harm will come to you. Tell me: What in the world were you smuggling?! Nasrudin replied, Donkeys. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jan Hattenbach [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Porter aside, it reminds me of a Sufi story I heard as a tyke. Mulla Nasarudin saw a group of men (possibly horsemen or soldiers), he panicked and found a pit jumped down to hide inside, and worried terribly what that would do to him. Unfortunately for him, he began shaking, as he did not escape their notice. They hastily came over, from above the pit one voice yelled down as he was terrorized, Sir, what ön earth are you doing down there? The Mulla answered, That, my friend, is not a simple question. I am here because you are there ... I wish I could see the text of this wonderful tale somewhere ... Doug __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hola, Doug, Ai! I forgot the most important part --- The Piscos!! Does this mean I owe you a Pisco Sour? Sterling -- - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Hi David, Bob and Jan, List, David - There has been a cold war going on down there to define who has rights to market alcoholic drinks called Pisco (If you don't think this is important - very seriously-, think again!!!), and the fight for control portions of the sea between Peru and Chile is still ablating. It isn't the village that is of interest. It is the fight for land and sea, and national pride. The land of the Desaguadero River where the fall is, is near the outlet to the ocean that Chile appropriated in war victory against Bolivia/Peru and I suspect that unofficial military activities are common in that zone, as well as a state of alert on both sides, and also that there is an underlying fear from this. As outsiders from this conflict, the best we can imagine... Jan - As you say (most of us including you could) think before we post, too, though I don't object to your post either. The very few prior comments you have made seem very educated, so I really wonder, why hadn't you said anything throughout the barrage of bashing of people, corruption and the filth there, and now not expect that this impression is prevalent and accepted by a lot of list members? This is an exotic and majestic area to visit, though lacking in hygene by the cultural standards of many outsiders. The list has been fixated on the negative and a meteoric attention span. Why don't you ask what Bob Haag about his recent vacation in the wonderful area, he probably has seen enough in his life to give a different perspective on their hygene and culture. Bob W. - David off the list? Eighty-six that possee! Best wishes and health, Doug Aborigines don't own the land.They belong to it. It's like their mother. See those rocks? Been standing there for 600 million years. Still be there when you and I are gone. So arguing over who owns them is like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on. - Original Message - From: David Weir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bob WALKER [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS If Art removes me I'll be happy to leave. It's people like you who make me vomit all over this LIST. And don't ever visit my website which contains a quarter of a million words bringing the most current meteorite research to those interested, including total morons like you. You are hereby forbidden to visit it. I do not want to contribute anything else to this LIST or to you, you small-brained idiot. Kiss my ass! David __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
worse pertinent one has been complicated, says that it has a worse asthma, says that it can complicate Likely Question: What was it like when it hit? We have been scared! I have walked like a drunk. [I was staggered.] I was walking there, spinning wool. Suddenly, it made me lie down two times! It was there, behind this house. Q? What about the animals? The sheep was scared; he has died. My pregnant sheep has died, the other also seems that it is sick. Q? Were there flames? The flames have fallen down, they are thrown far from where they were moored [literally, tied down, the point of origin]. I was recovering, but like a drunk person. Q? What did your wife see? Perhaps she has not seen, [when she came out] all the flames have fallen down. Q? Did you see the impact on the ground? (apparently asked of another informant, not clear) I have not seen that, only I have seen those who are next [in front of] to me, but the smoke has grown so big it almost reached up to the [top of the] sky. Q? What did you think? I said that the Chileans have thrown the bomb, this moment I said that either I will not meet my son he since it was in the house now either we are not the people handyman I same realize this way it had been Q? Very long question. I can't sort out the answer. Idiot like that is walking, says that his foot hurts him, his head it was also, where the doctor has not made to meet also to the school it is necessary to go. It makes me hurt to the ugly well eye [the crater?]; that's why I do not want to approach. End of Interview First, it sounds like PTSD to me. This was a very traumatic event to a group of very quiet pastoralists. They were Bombed! Anybody still doubt it was an explosive event? With a forceful shock wave? We have been scared! I have walked like a drunk. [I was staggered.] I was walking there, spinning wool. Suddenly, it made me lie down two times! The flames have fallen down, they are thrown far... They are obviously distraught and in high anxiety, In the nights, the children were not sleeping, were crying, were restless... I read their immense concern over their health not as an ignorant hysteria, but as an indicator of how stressful the event was to experience. We big-rocks- from-space nuts think it would Neat! But, of course, it would be terrifying. It suggests to me that those who think this event was just a big rock plop are mistaken. Some of the descriptions could be consistent with a very, very low airburst, very close to the ground (500, 600 feet). The fact that he was knocked down twice is interesting. It could be that he was first flattened by the air wave, then by the impact shock wave. It could also be a reflected impact wave. The drunk walk is often found in earthquake descriptions of ground movement. Of course, the estimated distances (always one kilometer) are data you can throw away. The flames have fallen down suggests ablative flight all the way to the ground (or very low airburst; there's hardly any difference). If anyone wants a copy of the Aymara-Spanish document, contact me and I can email it to you. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hi, All, First, I have a correction (or two) to make to my interpretation of the interview. The interview was conducted, it turns out, on the 22nd of September, well before Mike Farmer or Bob Haag and Carl Esparza came to Carancas, so the Big Scoundrel is the meteorite itself. The second part of the interview, which starts at the point where we don't have the questions translated, with the description of being knocked down twice, is with another individual, a 67-year-old who was apparently much closer to the impact point. Secondly, why would the inhabitants of a tiny village of herders immediately assume they were under attack, being bombed with devastating weapons, and by Chile? Who the heck would invade Carancas? To understand that, you would have to know about The War of The Pacific (1879-1883). To understand how that works, I suggest a quick and easy read of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Pacific Why does isolated land-locked Bolivia not have access to the Pacific coast just like its neighbor Peru? Who would fight the biggest war in South America over the Atacama Desert and why? Why would (at one time) Argentina have a Pacific Coast strip when Bolivia did not? Why would Patagonia be part of Argentina when it was settled by the Chileans? Why would Peru bear the brunt of a war fought between Bolivia and Chile? Hey, I'm not going to spoil the soap opera of history here, with a very real and not-at-all comic war, with last stands and legendary sea battles, amphibious invasions and diplomatic complexity, but the last part of the peace treaty wasn't implemented until 1999, and tensions are sometimes high in the region, so it's NOT unreasonable to assume that it is war come again if you're being bombed. Wars, overall, are never about the richness of a spot; they're about the spot, the place on the planet. For example, whatever the causes, it's obvious the US is not in Iraq because its houses are so beautiful, nor the countryside so lush and green, nor because we envy their great garbage collection. Yet... there we are. If the United States decides to destroy your mud-brick and tin-roof home-sweet-home, the F-16's will be dropping 500 pound bombs. It seems that bombed people are suitably impressed by that event, so it's not surprising that a bomb TWENTY times more powerful would --- what shall we say? -- make a strong impression! It is clear the event was completely, even existentially, shocking to a quiet enduring people in a harsh but very calm place. To me, the most poignant part of the interview is where it becomes obvious that the impact event has seriously upset their innate sense of how the universe works: Can another such thing suddenly fall down? Another? It's their cosmic 9-11. Sterling K. Webb Footnote: It wouldn't hurt us to worry more about Apophis and similar such rocks, spend a little more money on finding and tracking them, yada, yada, before we become an example of the shantytown planet taken by existential surprise. --- - Original Message - From: David Weir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:58 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS quoted from Sterling's article: I did not think that a planet piece has fallen down, or anything like that, but at that moment, I thought that we have been attacked by an enemy, from the air. Then, I thought that there was one [plane] alone. I have looked at the air, to see where is the plane that has bombed us this way, more or less imagining it. [But] it had not been like that. Then I said that it goes to finish off one more place, no more for us. I find it mind-boggling that a a tiny rundown corrupt village (really a squalor) would thing that someone was attacking those destitute people to steal perhaps the garbage in the streets?, or maybe to steal the human waste from the around their shacks?! Who the heck would invade Carancas? That fear must be genetically ingrained in their brains because it isn't a reasoned consideration. David __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas: Impact crater vs. impact hole
Hi, Bernd, List, An excellent attempt at defining the difference, but as Bernd has pointed out there are characteristics of both in Carancas. But, Buchward is seeing things from an iron perspective. An iron will make a much larger impact pit than any stone ever could, as it takes much more energy to vaporize iron than it does to vaporize rock. (The boiling point of iron is 3134 degrees Kelvin, almost double that of even the toughest rocks.) In practical terms, an exploding (vaporizing) iron impactor would probably have to hit at 8 to 10 km/s to create a vaporizing explosion. Buchwald mentions a velocity of 5 km/s as an upper limit to an impact pit. This is because if all the impact energy were converted to heat with full 100% efficiency, it would take a 4.2 km/s impact to vaporize rock. In a real impact, it would take 5 km/s or more to do it. In practice, if we had a vast range of craters to examine, we would find true craters made by stones that were smaller than any true crater made by irons, and iron impact pits larger than the smallest true craters made by stones. There's an interesting complication not often thought about: an iron impact with insufficient energy to vaporize its own iron can be hot enough to vaporize the terrestrial rocks it impacts! So, it's possible that an iron impactor could produce a vaporizing cratering explosion that leaves the impactor (partly) intact! Perhaps this type of crater would occupy the intermediate range between stone and iron craters in the case of iron impactors. Carancas had vaporizing traits: the reported bright flash, the mushroom cloud, and the mysterious vapors all point to a thermal event, but other signs of the heat of a rock-vapor explosion event are missing. I believe that what happened is that only the 5% (to maybe) 10% troilite component of the impactor vaporized (an idea first posted on the List by Piper R. W. Hollier -- going to be academic here and credit my sources). Troilite vaporizes at a much lower temperature than rock -- only 427 degrees C. -- but it would produce a very satisfying explosive shock, excavating the crater, powdering the impactor, releasing hot sulfur into the air and the wet crater. Troilite is almost unknown in the terrestrial environment because it breaks down rapidly at Earth-normal temperatures; vaporized troilite would chemically combine almost instantly. Even the bubbling in the crater, which everybody immediately dismissed, can be explained by the short-term reaction of the troilite-generated (dilute) sulfuric acid in the crater with the native carbonates and the production of hydrogen sulfide. As for what might be found in the crater itself, I suggest that nothing but the free iron component will have remained there, probably having penetrated the crater bottom as far as the native rock allows. Early descriptions of big pieces picked by local institutions show a 15% free iron content, much of it (by weight) in large irregular concentrations (like Portales Valley). That portion is likely in (or under) the crater still. IF it were a ten-ton impactor, there could (might) be a ton of iron down there. (Notice I used the big if.) This type of semi-vaporizing explosion has never been proposed before as far as I know, but the fit of this theoretical model to Carancas is extremely convincing. (Well, I'm convinced anyway.) An investigation of this impact could actually contribute something to our scant knowledge of impact mechanics in the real world, but instead (if the MSNBC article is to be believed) we get ho-hum, another boring H4/5. My, are we spoiled, or what? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 11:40 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Carancas: Impact crater vs. impact hole Hello All! BUCHWALD V.F. (1975) Handbook of Iron Meteorites, Volume 1, pp. 33-34: For the sake of clarity it should be noted here that giant meteorites can form two types of craters. The smaller crater is more properly called a large impact hole and is geerated by relatively small meteorites ( 50 tons) with relatively low velocities not exceeding 5 km/s. Such meteorites cause mechanical destruction of the ground and are themselves usually broken into a number of fragments upon impact. The major part of the meteortic fragments will remain in the impact hole with shattered rock and soil. Typical examples are the 100-1,700 kg iron meteorites of the Sikhote-Alin shower that produced impact holes 6-27 meters in diameter and buried themselves to depths of 2-8 meters. The genuine craters discussed here are more than 100 m in diameter and were formed as the result of an explosion at the moment of impact. The projectile itself vaporized almost entirely, and tremendous shock waves raced outward from the focus
Re: [meteorite-list] Chondrule photos update
Hi, Darren, List? Nice chondruloscopy! (Especially for that price!) Is the object pictured in NWA 3113_01 a chondrule or a xenolithic clast? Assuming you had a big enough laptop battery, you could take this photo-microscope into the field for any of a hundred uses. (And I don't even get a commission.) Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Chondrule photos update I've copied the chondrule photos to an Angelfire account which, unlike my ISP's free 20 MB of space, is ad-based, but I can't leave them on my ISP space long term (because I often use the space for other things) and the Angelfire space can be left indefinitely. So the annoying ad images aren't my idea, and I get no part of the money. Here's the URL: http://www.angelfire.com/d20/darren_garrison/index.htm __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] TROILITE VAPORIZATION IN CARANCAS
Hi, List (sorry, Adam), After touting the idea that the Carancas impactor vaporized its troilite content and created a quasi-explosive event, I have discovered I picked up one erroneous piece of data: 700 degrees K. is not the vapor point of troilite; it is the condensation temperature of gaseous troilite in a near vacuum, and is lower than the melting and boiling point of troilite. Here's the actual data, which does not preclude a troilite vaporization even though the data is not that simple: the melting point of FeS is 1463 K. The total heat to raise it from 0 K to its melting point is 88 kiloJoules per mole. The heat of fusion is 31 kiloJoules per mole, or a total of 119 kJ/mole to melt. Then comes boiling... Boiling troilite is complicated. After 94 minutes of Googling, I discover, in a paper too complicated for me to understand, the statement that measuring the boiling point of troilite is too complicated to explain in this paper. Big help. It varies with the compositional variety, is changed by the other mineral phases present, yada, yada. It also appears that hot melted troilite dissociates very rapidly. The sulfur released from melted troilite is a vapor as the boiling point of sulfur is very much lower than troilite; you can boil a spoonful of sulfur with a big match. Just try it. The troilite exists as nodules in the rock, which the first Bolivian analysis gives as ultramafic, so I looked for forsterite. Here the corresponding physical data for forsterite: melting point is 2171 K; total heat is 360 kJ, and the heat of fusion is 71+/-21 kJ, or 410-452 kJ/mole to melt it. And that's one of the easier rocks to melt and vaporize... You can see that it takes vastly more energy to melt rock (and vaporize it) than it does troilite, three-and-a-half times more. This is the important fact, because an impact is a mechanism: to transform kinetic energy into heat. The temperatures achieved are created entirely by the converted energy of the impact. It turns out that velocity necessary to reach the kinetic energy of 119 kJ/mole for troilite is 1644 meters per sec. Since velocities for 2000 m/sec and up have been proposed here on the List for a large, slow impactor, there seems to be no problem with the troilite explosion theory. It still fits the parameters we know (or think we do). And, as long as I am dining on crow: crow a la orange, broasted crow, crow fricassee, crow burgers, crow a la King, fillet of crow... (For readers in Europa, I suspect the expression eating crow is exclusively an American slang backwoodism; it means confessing to an error.) There is one more error. I mentioned large free iron inclusions in Carancas. The term large is an error. There is a photo in the Max Schreier Planetarium Publication20070929014416208.pdf of an iron melt that has filled the veins and hollows of Carancas, which they interpret as meaning the original meteoroid was heavily shocked in its earlier life (something we can agree to). But I failed to notice the SCALE of the photo; it wasn't a big inclusion, although there are reports of free iron inclusions (usually found knocked free from any matrix) in the sub-centimeter range. There could be large free iron inclusions, but if there are, they haven't been found. If anyone (else) finds any more errors, let me know; I still have some nicely chilled left-over crow sandwiches in the refrigerator. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Microscope focus software
http://www.heliconsoft.com/heliconfocus.html Helicon Focus Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Microscope focus software Matteo should be able to answer that because it was him who presented that program and proudly showed off his results! Bernd To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] ...Mali or Algeria...
Hi, All How to Name a Meteorite! http://www.meteoriticalsociety.org/bulletin/nc-guidelines.htm 3.1 Geographic features. A new meteorite shall be named after a nearby geographical locality. Every effort should be made to avoid unnecessary duplication or ambiguity, and to select a permanent feature such as a town, village, river, bay, cape, mountain or island which appears on widely used maps and is sufficiently close to the recovery site to convey meaningful locality information. In sparsely populated areas with few place names, less permanent features such as ranches or stations or, in extreme cases, local unofficial names of distinctive quality may be used, provided the latitude and longitude of the recovery site are well determined. The names of large geographic features such as continents, countries, provinces, states, and large counties should be avoided if names that are more specific are available, except as specified in §3.3 and §3.4. In general, the selected feature should be the closest such feature to the site of the recovery. If, for example, the name of the nearest town is already used, the meteorite should not be named for the next nearest town. In such a case, a different geographic feature (e.g., a stream) should be selected, if available (if not, §3.3 applies). Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Chauncey Walden [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ...Mali or Algeria... So, Marcin, Park Forest should be Chicago? ;-) I think that meteorite name should be taken from a bigger , more importand, nearest city. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event !
Hi, Doug, Walt, List, Get out those binoculars. Maybe you won't need them... Posted 49 minutes ago. P17 now 1,000,000 times brighter. Reported visible to the naked eye from a large city: http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/highlights/10775326.html Comet expert Gary Kronk expects this object to remain bright and grow from a starlike point to several arcminutes across over the next few nights as it makes its way slowly westward across Perseus. Its position on October 25th (0h UT) is right ascension 3h 53m, declination +50.1° (equinox 2000), and by October 30th it will have moved only to 3h 48m, +50.4°. For those living in the Northern Hemisphere, Perseus is visible all night at this time of year. http://www.space.com/spacewatch/071025-comet-holmes.html with North American 8 pm chart for tonight at: http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=071024-comet-holmes-02.jpgcap=Comet+Holmes%27+location+as+of+Oct.+24th+at+8+p.m.+local+time+from+midnorthern+latitudes.+ Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Walter Branch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event ! Hi Doug, You are right. This is a phenomenal event! First a supernova in NGC 7721 and now this comet suddenly brightens by several magnitudes. Unfortunately, all I have at present is a great view of the Great Cloudy (and rainey) Nebula. -Walter Branch (listing more meteorites on ebay) - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event ! Sure, and my questions were rhetorical more than anything else (not to compare to Halley's Comet's size, or anything like that - they are miracle specific). What would the wise kings in Biblical times have made of this? (rhetorical) However, coma aside, a (now) 500,000 times increase in a few short hours is quite remarkable by any standard - especially for something so far away, and what has gone into this. This is not your typical comet event as you know and is completely exploding off any graph for how magnitudes of comets normally evolve - that is at the heart. This event will go down as one of the most spectacular, if not the most spectacular, of its kind ever observed. If not for the prior much lesser outburst recorded for this comet, I would be more inclined to think it was an impact, than anything else. This is a comet that at closest approach to the Sun only makes a Vesta (Main belt asteroid, maximum concentration zone) distance. It virtually appeared out of nowhere into not only the eyepiece, but also the naked eye at 2.4+ AU. Nonetheless, your point about the coma is well accepted. I am blown away by rate at which it happened as the comet was already very well far on its way out. and after all, it is traveling at 2.2 Km/s. Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event ! The size of the comet core is largely irrelevant. What matters is the size of the coma, since that's what is reflecting the light. And an active comet can easily have a coma many times larger than Mars. In reality, active comets are amongst the largest objects in the Solar System, even though their cores are amongst the smallest. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 3:20 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event ! Hi Again Listees, With regards to Comet 17P (Holmes) estimated at under 3.5 Km in diameter, and being twice as far from the Earth as the planet Mars: How could it be one sixteenth as bright as Mars and an easy object in the night sky with an almost Full Moon? No doubt it has a lot of ice crystals or something white and reflective. A rought thought says that in absolute terms it is one fourth the brightness of Mars if they were at the same distance from us! This is because we perceive only 1/4 of the light intensity due to the doubling of distance, It is it is hard to avoid the temptation of thinking this tiny body is of relatively pristine material now confined to the Asteroid belt, but before, from the Outer Solar System, and may, for once, given Jupiter his dues, have been affected by a relatively close pass to the inner Solar System, with Venus, Earth and Mars all aligned this month to exert
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event !
Hi, A history of Holmes at: http://cometography.com/pcomets/017p.html says it was discovered (1892) in a brilliant naked-eye outburst but then faded away. Five months later, it brightened again back to a lesser naked-eye status. It was observed through its 1906 perihelion, but was lost thereafter. It was often observed without any coma whatsoever. It was recovered in 1964 after Brian Marsten recalculated the orbit, as a coma-less condensation and has never shown more than a wisp of coma... until now. Hard to imagine that solar heating of volatiles at its great distance at irregular intervals could be responsible for such brightening. When it was discovered, it was excitedly thought to be a recovery of Comet Biela, and we all know what happened in Biela-ville. Exposing half the comet to sunlight (or a third or a quarter) might do it. [For those not up on their comet gossip, the large bright Comet Biela broke apart into TWO Comet Bielas, then eventually NO Comet Bielas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D/Biela] Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 6:40 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event ! It certainly is remarkable. Fascinating to speculate on just what occurred to throw off what must be a vast amount of material. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event ! Sure, and my questions were rhetorical more than anything else (not to compare to Halley's Comet's size, or anything like that - they are miracle specific). What would the wise kings in Biblical times have made of this? (rhetorical) However, coma aside, a (now) 500,000 times increase in a few short hours is quite remarkable by any standard - especially for something so far away, and what has gone into this. This is not your typical comet event as you know and is completely exploding off any graph for how magnitudes of comets normally evolve - that is at the heart. This event will go down as one of the most spectacular, if not the most spectacular, of its kind ever observed. If not for the prior much lesser outburst recorded for this comet, I would be more inclined to think it was an impact, than anything else. This is a comet that at closest approach to the Sun only makes a Vesta (Main belt asteroid, maximum concentration zone) distance. It virtually appeared out of nowhere into not only the eyepiece, but also the naked eye at 2.4+ AU. Nonetheless, your point about the coma is well accepted. I am blown away by rate at which it happened as the comet was already very well far on its way out. and after all, it is traveling at 2.2 Km/s. Best wishes, Doug __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Comet Holmes
Hi, Don, That is the correct location. There can't be two of them. In some locations (like mine), that is the sky coordinates of the Great Cloudy Nebula, as Walter called it. And, of course, the sky to the southwest is clear, where it doesn't matter. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Don Merchant [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:33 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Comet Holmes Hi List just went outside a few minutes ago. Tell me if I saw the comet. I looked down from Marfak (brightest star in perseus) to the next star called Delta Persei. Then I looked 2° to the left (which would be west at this time now) and BAM! This thing is bright!! Too bad no tail but my guess is something cataclysmic occurred internally and made it's way to the surface. So for those experts out there who have seen the comet does it seem as if I was looking in the right area and saw it? Just looking for some verification is all. Thanks Don M __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] comet holmes
Hi, Jerry, I don't know the exact distance to 17P (starts Googling). Light speed is 18 million kilometers a minute. If I did it right (don't hold me to it) Mars is 121,422,000 kilometers away right now (give or take), or a light travel time of 6 minutes, 44.67 seconds -- that's why all those phone calls you've been making to Mars are so expensive. Doug says: Comet 17P (Holmes) estimated at under 3.5 Km in diameter, and being twice as far from the Earth as the planet Mars I don't know if he means at the moment or that its perihelion distance is 2.1655 AU (and aphelion at 5.2 AU). Holmes has passed perihelion (May 4) and is heading out, so a long way. The Space.com article says it's 243,000,000 km away (twice as far as Mars, like Doug said) and assuming they mean actual Earth-Comet distance, the light travel time is 13 minutes, 30 seconds. Long distance call... Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:50 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] comet holmes What's the time interval for light transmission from this distance to earth? Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] comet holmes
Jerry, In a century or two, the lightminute will become a common measure of distance. Say you're working on Titan, at the Hydrocarbon Pipeline Base at the foot of the skyhook that pumps it up to static orbit, and you realize that next month you'll have to budget for a long phone call to your wife's parents because it's their 100th wedding anniversary. It's not cheap to call The Old Folks At Home (back on The Moon, as they still call it) and your wife is going to blab endlessly, you know that. The charge rate of the call will contain lightspeed connection times, a surcharge per lightminute. You recall vaguely that Saturn and Earth are both on the same side of the Sun right now; that helps. You get online and check the current surcharge on a call to The Moon. At least it's nowhere as bad as the surcharge to Mars. The lightminute is the most comfortable unit to use inside the solar system, whether you're communicating or not. Just as today anyone who moves around a lot knows that a mile is 5280 feet (and a kilometer is 3280* feet; isn't that handy?), in 200 years all traveled persons will know a lightminute is 18,000,000 kilometers. Only pedants will object that it's really 17,987,547.5 kilometers. Hey! Close enough! For everything but the landing, anyway. It's a lot more convenient to think of the Earth's distance from the Sun as 8.5 lightminutes, or Mars' close approach is just over 3 lightminutes (and Venus' closest just under 3 lightminutes or Jupiter at 39 lightminutes). AU's are too big. Miles and kilometers are too small. The lightminute is just right. And if you're IN a spacecraft making a routine trip in the solar system and covering 2,500,000+ kilometers a day for days on end, you're covering a lightminute every week and wishing you had the price of a high-boost ticket on a hyperbolic orbit liner knocking off a lightminute or more every day. Oh, yeah, those big numbers we use today look very impressive in print (and that's why we use them), but in constant everyday conversation? I don't think so. The lightminute has a future! It's either that, or a new common-use unit like the kilometer: the gigameter. So, a lightminute is 18 gigameters. But because the gigameter doesn't tie to time (and communication) like the lightminute, I think the lightminute will be the winner. Sterling K. Webb - * 3280.8399 feet, you pedants. - - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] comet holmes Hello Jerry: Based on Starry Night, the Shuttle was about 360km away at closest and ISS about 390km away. At 300,000 km/sec (speed of light), we are talking about 1/1000 of a second for light to get from there to here. Not sure how far apart they were, but do not think that it was very much different than that. Larry On Wed, October 24, 2007 8:50 pm, Jerry wrote: What's the time interval for light transmission from this distance to earth? Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P], continued
Hi, Larry, List, Stuck under cloud cover so dense that even the nearly Full Moon does not even make a bright area behind it, I have only your description and my imagination to work with, but your observation could be of what is in effect an inner and an outer coma with different densities. The reflectivity of the coma is dependent on the density of the particles making up the coma. The usually even brightening of the coma toward a star-like condensation (the nucleus) is due to the continuously increasing density of particles as you proceed toward the nucleus, and that uniformity is the result of a more or less constant rate of outflow. The appearance of a brighter (hence denser) inner coma could be the density discontinuity or boundary between the spreading and dispersing coma of the original outburst and the expanding front of a new and greater outburst of an increased amount of material that has occurred more recently and is now expanding outward. Wouldn't that be great? I put in my request for a magnitude 0 or magnitude -1 comet by Saturday night! Let's have a bigger, better comet (and one that will last longer than my clouds). Larry, if you know the field of view of your scope, you can estimate the size of the coma. Every arc minute at the distance of Holmes 17P is 70,680 km across (or 424,000 km per degree). Is it bright? Brian Marsden says he's getting nova reports: This is a terrific outburst, said Brian Marsden, director emeritus of the Minor Planet Center, which tracks known comets and asteroids. And since it doesn't have a tail right now, some observers have confused it with a nova. We've had at least two reports of a new star. Go, Holmes! Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mark Langenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P], continued Hi Again: We just looked at it with a 100mm f/5 telescope and it is clearly orange. However, it is also very obvious that this thing is unusual. I thought that I had a focusing problem, but the scope was in focus. There is a beautiful circular coma, but the condensation is NOT star-like. It is about 1/4 the diameter of the outer coma! Never seen anything like this. Larry On Thu, October 25, 2007 7:29 pm, Mark Langenfeld wrote: Even with the extra-bright full moon and the usual urban light pollution, 17/P Holmes is a nice naked-eye object here in Madison, WI this evening. The coma is suprisingly large and shows a bright, star-like condensation or center through 7X50 binoculars. I agree with Jeff that color is apparent, showing a yellowish --almost orange -- cast. If you haven't yet taken a look (and have clear skies), NOW is the time to get outdoors and witness this most unusual event. Mark - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P] Just to update those interested, there is no diminishing in brightness in fact there may be a slight increase. It defintely looks cometary in binoculars with a bright center and hazy coma. And as someone said last nite, it has a redish cast. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] MORE COMET HOLMES
Hi, All List member Chris Peterson is too busy observing Holmes to post it here (rightfully), but his website has excellent pictures of the comet and a lot of up-to-date information: http://www.cloudbait.com/gallery/comet/holmes.html Everyone mention that a tail has not yet formed, but if you look at the NASA-JPL orbit simulation: http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=17P;orb=1 you'll see that any tail (which by default points away from the Sun) would point away from the Earth at a very similar angle. The tail would (will) have to be fairly long before we got our first glimpse of it and... the coma is in the way, too. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] MORE COMET HOLMES #2
According to Chris, the coma is about 3.3 arc minutes across, or 230,000 kilometers. The very brightest part is about 2.8 arc minutes or 196,000 km across. Chris has a light curve on his website (URL below. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:17 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] MORE COMET HOLMES Hi, All List member Chris Peterson is too busy observing Holmes to post it here (rightfully), but his website has excellent pictures of the comet and a lot of up-to-date information: http://www.cloudbait.com/gallery/comet/holmes.html Everyone mention that a tail has not yet formed, but if you look at the NASA-JPL orbit simulation: http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=17P;orb=1 you'll see that any tail (which by default points away from the Sun) would point away from the Earth at a very similar angle. The tail would (will) have to be fairly long before we got our first glimpse of it and... the coma is in the way, too. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] MORE COMET HOLMES #3
Hi, 6.7 arc minute is 469,000 km at 17P's distance. 13-17 arc minutes is 910,000 to 1,190,000 km. The first brightening was observed at Tennerife just after local midnight, October 24, or about 52-54 hours ago. If the bright coma radius is now 235,000 km, it's been expanding at roughly 4500 km/hour and the extended coma at 10,000 km/hour. Another 24 hours (Friday night) would add 216,000 km to the bright coma diameter, or 685,000 km (9.7 arc minutes). This is about 1/3 of the size of the Full Moon (which is 30 arc minutes). A second 24 hours of expansion would take the bright coma up nearly half the size of the Full Moon. (Of course, the expansion is not necessarily linear, but it may in fact expand faster than the linear... for a while.) Another of tonight's observations posted at the Sky and Telescope site: From ST's Alan MacRobert: Omigod. thin clouds lit by the full Moon I had to guess where Perseus was, but I swept around with 10x50 binoculars, and wham, there was the comet! It's sure not starlike now, at least not in the 10x binocs with homemade image stabilization. It's a very sizeable bright fuzz spot, perfectly round, with a large, brilliant, hazy nucleus and a very sharp edge to the circular coma. Golden yellow with just a hint of green. When the clouds finally cleared and I could see it with the naked eye, it was still starlike to my vision. Magnitude 2.6 or 2.7. (Apparently you can just barely see the green, with big enough binoculars. Carbon monoxide like Hyutake?) IF (big if) this is a mega-outburst and the brightening lasts until Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, we will have 1, 2 , and 3 hours of dark sky with the comet in the sky at the beginning of night before the Moon rises (varies with lattitude). My local Weather Prophets say clear here by Saturday --- keep going, Holmesie! May you get big and bright enough that ordinary people look up and say, What The H*** is THAT Thing? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] MORE COMET HOLMES #2 I've updated the profile at http://www.cloudbait.com/gallery/comet/holmes.html with data taken tonight. The brighter central coma is now at least twice as wide (6.7 arcmin across), with some structure showing as far out as 13-17 arcmin. I did take some images tonight which I may add to the site tomorrow. I still see no structure, just a bigger object. Right now I'm running an overnight photometric sequence, so I'll see tomorrow how the brightness might be changing with time (that will actually be a light curve; the other data is an intensity profile). Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:40 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] MORE COMET HOLMES #2 According to Chris, the coma is about 3.3 arc minutes across, or 230,000 kilometers. The very brightest part is about 2.8 arc minutes or 196,000 km across. Chris has a light curve on his website (URL below. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
