Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-18 Thread rjmcmahon via Nnagain
Well, way off topic, heat pumps are a step in a better direction than expensive space heaters, particularly for kids in public housing. Fiber wave-guides are low energy, too compared to all other wave guides and better than free space as function of distance. I don't think there is a

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-18 Thread David Lang via Nnagain
assuming a single floor house with lose insulation in the attic now look at a multi-story place where there isn't an attic, or one with trusses so that moving around the attic is hard, or a SIP cealing, cathedral cealings, etc. but my initial comment on ROI and refitting cost was actually

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-18 Thread Robert McMahon via Nnagain
Retrofit is trivial. It's all in the attic. A romex splice is about $53. Verticals aren't required. Many states are mandating per each sale. I had to do this in Boston historic district. No grandfather. My fire hurts the entire street ⁣Bob On Oct 18, 2023, 7:05 PM, at 7:05 PM, David Lang

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-18 Thread David Lang via Nnagain
On Wed, 18 Oct 2023, Robert McMahon wrote: It's $428 per ac ceiling mount hardwired device, no verticals. It's $503 per vertical for rg6 with patch n paint, internal walls only. The asset value add for a rg6 jack is basically zero. The asset value add for whole home, life support capable,

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-18 Thread Robert McMahon via Nnagain
It's $428 per ac ceiling mount hardwired device, no verticals. It's $503 per vertical for rg6 with patch n paint, internal walls only. The asset value add for a rg6 jack is basically zero. The asset value add for whole home, life support capable, future proof,  low power, structured fiber &

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-18 Thread David Lang via Nnagain
On Sat, 14 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: On being unleashed, I think this applies to consumer electronics too. Not sure why HDMI class cables will be needed. WiFi 7 is spec'd at 16 MIMO radios at 45Gb/s per front end module. Add some hw compression/decompression, I think it can carry even HDMI

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-14 Thread rjmcmahon via Nnagain
Hi Sebastian, On being unleashed, I think this applies to consumer electronics too. Not sure why HDMI class cables will be needed. WiFi 7 is spec'd at 16 MIMO radios at 45Gb/s per front end module. Add some hw compression/decompression, I think it can carry even HDMI Utlra High Speed or 8K.

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-14 Thread Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain
Hi Bob, > On Oct 13, 2023, at 19:20, rjmcmahon wrote: > > Hi Sebastian, > > It was the ISP tech support over the phone. Trying to help install a home > network over the phone w/o a technician isn't easy. [SM] Ah, okay. I would never even think about calling my ISP when considering

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-13 Thread rjmcmahon via Nnagain
As an open-source maintainer of iperf 2, which is basically a network socket & traffic tool, I find this history extremely interesting. Releasing a measurement tool free to all, with transparent code, allows everyone access to a "shared yardstick." While maybe not enough, hopefully, it helps a

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-13 Thread Jack Haverty via Nnagain
Good point -- "How would I know if an installation was meeting the specs?" It *has* been done before.  From a historical perspective... When TCPV4 was being defined and documented in RFCs (e.g., RFC 793), circa 1981, other activities were happening in the administrative bureaucracy of the US

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-13 Thread rjmcmahon via Nnagain
Hi Sebastian, Sun workstations targeted engineers, many were sw engineers, who used the hardware to write sw for their workstations which was critical to success of the hardware & company. Sun was likely the very first open source company. Then hardware became more of a commodity where free

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-13 Thread rjmcmahon via Nnagain
Hi Sebastian, It was the ISP tech support over the phone. Trying to help install a home network over the phone w/o a technician isn't easy. In many U.S. states, smoke detectors are required to be no more that 30' apart, must be AC powered, battery backed up and must communicate with one

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-13 Thread Robert McMahon via Nnagain
That's interesting. It's basically saying the security risk is openwrt sw. The chips themselves aren't, and signal processing is not either. I'll add that to FiWi's remote radio head argument, i.e. it's inherently more secure. Security is a huge problem for everyone. ⁣Bob On Oct 13, 2023,

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-13 Thread Hal Murray via Nnagain
Jack Haverty said: > A few days ago I made some comments about the idea of "educating" the > lawyers, politicians, and other smart, but not necessarily technically > adept, decision makers. That process might work. Stanford has run programs on cyber security for congressional staffers. From

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-13 Thread Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain
Hi Bob, > On Oct 13, 2023, at 06:31, rjmcmahon via Nnagain > wrote: > > Hi David, > > I think we're looking at different parts of the elephant. I perceive huge > advances in WiFi (phy, dsp, radios, fems, etc.) and residential gateway chips > of late. Not sure the state of chips used by the

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-13 Thread David Lang via Nnagain
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: I think we're looking at different parts of the elephant. I perceive huge advances in WiFi (phy, dsp, radios, fems, etc.) and residential gateway chips of late. My point is that the chips behavior doesn't change when you switch to a newer release of

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-13 Thread Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain
Hi Bob, > On Oct 12, 2023, at 17:55, Robert McMahon via Nnagain > wrote: > > Hi David, > > The vendors I know don't roll their own os code either. The make their own > release still mostly based from Linux and they aren't tied to the openwrt > release process. > > I think GUIs on CPEs

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-12 Thread rjmcmahon via Nnagain
Hi David, I think we're looking at different parts of the elephant. I perceive huge advances in WiFi (phy, dsp, radios, fems, etc.) and residential gateway chips of late. Not sure the state of chips used by the openwrt folks here, though they may be lagging a bit - not sure.

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-12 Thread David Lang via Nnagain
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon via Nnagain wrote: I looked at openwrt packages and iperf 2 is at version 2.1.3 which is a few years old. The number of CPE/AP systems to test against is quite large. Then throwing in versions for backwards compatibility testing adds yet another vector. for

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-12 Thread rjmcmahon via Nnagain
I looked at openwrt packages and iperf 2 is at version 2.1.3 which is a few years old. The number of CPE/AP systems to test against is quite large. Then throwing in versions for backwards compatibility testing adds yet another vector. Since it's performance related, statistical techniques

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-12 Thread Dave Taht via Nnagain
On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 9:04 AM rjmcmahon via Nnagain wrote: > > Sorry, my openwrt information seems to be incorrect and more vendors use > openwrt then I realized. So, I really don't know the numbers here. There are not a lot of choices in the market. On the high end, like eero, we are seeing

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-12 Thread David Lang via Nnagain
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: Arista's SW VP gave a talk where he said that 80% of their customer calls about bugs were already fixed but their customer wasn't following an upgrade policy. This approach applies to most any sw based product. Yes, there is a big "if it ain't broke

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-12 Thread rjmcmahon via Nnagain
Sorry, my openwrt information seems to be incorrect and more vendors use openwrt then I realized. So, I really don't know the numbers here. I do agree with the idea that fixes should be pushed to the mainline and that incremental upgrades should be standard practice. Arista's SW VP gave a

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-12 Thread Robert McMahon via Nnagain
Hi David, The vendors I know don't roll their own os code either. The make their own release still mostly based from Linux and they aren't tied to the openwrt release process. I think GUIs on CPEs are the wrong direction. Consumer network equipment does best when it's plug and play. Consumers

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-11 Thread David Lang via Nnagain
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: I don't know the numbers but a guess is that a majority of SoCs with WiFi radios aren't based on openwrt. From what I've seen, the majority of APs out there are based on OpenWRT or one of the competing open projects, very few roll their own OS from

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-11 Thread Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain
-Original Message- >> From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-boun...@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf >> Of rjmcmahon via Nnagain >> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2023 11:18 AM >> To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects >> heard this time! >> C

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-11 Thread Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain
HI Dave, > On Oct 11, 2023, at 20:06, Dave Taht via Nnagain > wrote: > > I think y'all are conflating two different labels here. The nutrition > label was one effort, now being deploye, the other is cybersecurity, > now being discussed. > > On the nutrition front... > We successfully fought

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-11 Thread Dick Roy via Nnagain
-Original Message- From: rjmcmahon [mailto:rjmcma...@rjmcmahon.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2023 11:50 AM To: dick...@alum.mit.edu Cc: 'Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard this time!'; 'Nick Feamster' Subject: Re: [NNagain] Internet Education

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-11 Thread Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain
Hi Jack, > On Oct 11, 2023, at 19:31, Jack Haverty via Nnagain > wrote: > > A few days ago I made some comments about the idea of "educating" the > lawyers, politicians, and other smart, but not necessarily technically adept, > decision makers. Today I saw a news story about a recent FCC

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-11 Thread rjmcmahon via Nnagain
I agree that sw & firmware upgrades are better than big jumps. I don't know the numbers but a guess is that a majority of SoCs with WiFi radios aren't based on openwrt. I think many on this list use openwrt but that may not be representative of the actuals. Also, the trend is less sw in a CPU

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-11 Thread David Lang via Nnagain
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, David Bray, PhD via Nnagain wrote: There's also the concern about how do startups roll-out such a label for their tech in the early iteration phase? How do they afford to do the extra work for the label vs. a big company (does this become a regulatory moat?) And let's say

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-11 Thread rjmcmahon via Nnagain
the technical aspects heard this time! Cc: rjmcmahon; Nick Feamster Subject: Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati? I've added many metrics around latency and one way delays (OWD) in iperf 2. There is no single type of latency, nor are the measurements scalars. (Few will understand

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-11 Thread Dick Roy via Nnagain
: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati? I've added many metrics around latency and one way delays (OWD) in iperf 2. There is no single type of latency, nor are the measurements scalars. (Few will understand violin plots or histograms on labels) On top of that, a paced flow

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-11 Thread David Bray, PhD via Nnagain
Are we talking about the one that modelled after the label from CMU (they showed some prototypes, there would be about 10-15 pieces of information on the label followed by a QR code to get the rest), here's a link - and the concerns I have apply to this:

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-11 Thread rjmcmahon via Nnagain
I've added many metrics around latency and one way delays (OWD) in iperf 2. There is no single type of latency, nor are the measurements scalars. (Few will understand violin plots or histograms on labels) On top of that, a paced flow will have a different e2e latency histogram than an as fast

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-11 Thread Dave Taht via Nnagain
I think y'all are conflating two different labels here. The nutrition label was one effort, now being deploye, the other is cybersecurity, now being discussed. On the nutrition front... We successfully fought against "packet loss" being included on the nutrition label, but as ghu is my witness, I

Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-11 Thread David Bray, PhD via Nnagain
I was at a closed-door event discussing these labels about two weeks ago (right before the potential government shutdown/temporarily averted for now) - and it was non-attribution, so I can only describe my comments: (1) the labels risk missing the reality that the Internet and cybersecurity are

[NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

2023-10-11 Thread Jack Haverty via Nnagain
A few days ago I made some comments about the idea of "educating" the lawyers, politicians, and other smart, but not necessarily technically adept, decision makers.  Today I saw a news story about a recent FCC action, to mandate "nutrition labels" on Internet services offered by ISPs: