Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Erwann Abalea]

Maybe we just didn’t. At least not with the command line tools.
The CHANGES file lists a merge between « dh », « gendh », and « dhparam » in 
2000, but no evolution since then.
The oldest version I could find is 0.9.6, and there’s no command-line DH key 
generation.

Cordialement,
Erwann Abalea

Le 30 juin 2016 à 16:58, Jakob Bohm 
> a écrit :

Which brings back my generalized question from yesterday:

Since X25519 is not the first "encrypt-only" algorithm in the
OpenSSL universe, how was requesting certificates handled for
such algorithms in the past?

For example how would one request a DH certificate?

Whatever was defined back then might be trivially extended
to also handle X25519.


On 30/06/2016 10:37, Erwann Abalea wrote:
Ok, you’re talking about OpenSSL command line tool only, I missed that part.

The solution should then be to modify apps/ca.c:certify() function to add an 
arg, and avoid the call to X509_REQ_verify when desired.

Le 29 juin 2016 à 19:17, Michael Scott 
<mike.sc...@miracl.com>
 a écrit :

Thanks Erwann, but that's not an answer to my question.

To get the CA to sign (using RSA or anything) a certificate that contains an 
X25519 public key, that certificate must first submit to the CA something 
called a "Certificate request". This takes the form of the supplicant 
certificate, which is self-signed. However you cannot self-sign with an X25519 
key (using the openssl command line tool), as it objects that X25519 does not 
support signature.

So the issue arises around the "certificate request" process. There is I agree 
no problem in creating the certificate itself.

On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Erwann Abalea 
> wrote:
Bonjour,

You may have a classic certificate containing your {X,Ed}{25519,448,whatever} 
public key once:

  *   an OID is allocated to identify this type of public key (it will go into 
tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.algorithm.algorithm)
  *   a set of associated optional parameters are defined for this OID (to go 
into tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.algorithm.parameters)
  *   a canonical encoding for this type of public key is defined, so the key 
material can be enclosed into tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.subjectPublicKey

This certificate may be RSA-signed or ECDSA-signed (or whatever-signed, in 
fact).

For a CA to be able to Ed{25519,448,whatever}-sign something, the previous 
steps must have been done, plus:

  *   an OID is allocated to identify the signature algorithm to apply (it will 
not be ECDSA) -> cert.signatureAlgorithm.algorithm
  *   a set of associated optional parameters are defined for this OID -> 
cert.signatureAlgorithm.parameters
  *   a canonical encoding for the signature value is defined, so it can be 
enclosed into cert.signatureValue

All this is being discussed at CFRG.

Le 29 juin 2016 à 16:46, Michael Scott 
<mike.sc...@miracl.com>
 a écrit :

How do I do this? Using the OpenSSL command line tool, a certificate request 
must be self-signed, but the X25519 elliptic curve (newly supported in version 
1.1.0), doesn't do signature, it can only be used for key exchange.

(Of course the X25519 Montgomery curve is birationally equivalent to an Edwards 
curve which can do signature. And indeed it is our intention to use the Edwards 
curve. But first I need a CA-signed X25519 cert. But because of the above 
catch-22 problem, I cannot create one.)


Enjoy

Jakob
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https://www.wisemo.com
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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Michael Scott]

On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Matt Caswell  wrote:

>
>
> On 30/06/16 16:54, Salz, Rich wrote:
> >> Since X25519 is not the first "encrypt-only" algorithm in the
> >> OpenSSL universe, how was requesting certificates handled for
> >> such algorithms in the past?
> >
> > It wasn't.
> >
> >> For example how would one request a DH certificate?
> >
> > You couldn't.
> >
> > I don't recall anyone ever asking for such a thing on the public lists.
> >
>
> There is no standardised way of requesting a DH certificate that I know of.
>
> Nonetheless OpenSSL does support the generation of DH certificates, but
> it's a bit nasty:
>
>
> https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/44251/openssl-generate-different-types-of-self-signed-certificate/82868#82868
>
>

That seems to be exactly what I was looking for! So create a bogus RSA cert
and create its self-signed certificate request. But then use the
-force_pubkey flag to substitute my own X25519 public key for the RSA
public key, just prior to getting it signed by the CA.

Reminds me of the cuckoo..

I would worry about the damage that could be done if -force_pubkey fell
into the wrong hands :)

Thanks!


Mike


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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Matt Caswell]

On 30/06/16 16:54, Salz, Rich wrote:
>> Since X25519 is not the first "encrypt-only" algorithm in the 
>> OpenSSL universe, how was requesting certificates handled for 
>> such algorithms in the past?
> 
> It wasn't.
> 
>> For example how would one request a DH certificate?
> 
> You couldn't.
> 
> I don't recall anyone ever asking for such a thing on the public lists.
> 

There is no standardised way of requesting a DH certificate that I know of.

Nonetheless OpenSSL does support the generation of DH certificates, but
it's a bit nasty:

https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/44251/openssl-generate-different-types-of-self-signed-certificate/82868#82868

Matt
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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Salz, Rich]

> Since X25519 is not the first "encrypt-only" algorithm in the 
> OpenSSL universe, how was requesting certificates handled for 
> such algorithms in the past?

It wasn't.

> For example how would one request a DH certificate?

You couldn't.

I don't recall anyone ever asking for such a thing on the public lists.
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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Jakob Bohm]

Which brings back my generalized question from yesterday:

Since X25519 is not the first "encrypt-only" algorithm in the
OpenSSL universe, how was requesting certificates handled for
such algorithms in the past?

For example how would one request a DH certificate?

Whatever was defined back then might be trivially extended
to also handle X25519.


On 30/06/2016 10:37, Erwann Abalea wrote:
Ok, you’re talking about OpenSSL command line tool only, I missed that 
part.


The solution should then be to modify apps/ca.c:certify() function to 
add an arg, and avoid the call to X509_REQ_verify when desired.


Le 29 juin 2016 à 19:17, Michael Scott > a écrit :


Thanks Erwann, but that's not an answer to my question.

To get the CA to sign (using RSA or anything) a certificate that 
contains an X25519 public key, that certificate must first submit to 
the CA something called a "Certificate request". This takes the form 
of the supplicant certificate, which is self-signed. However you 
cannot self-sign with an X25519 key (using the openssl command line 
tool), as it objects that X25519 does not support signature.


So the issue arises around the "certificate request" process. There 
is I agree no problem in creating the certificate itself.


On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Erwann Abalea 
> wrote:


Bonjour,

You may have a classic certificate containing your
{X,Ed}{25519,448,whatever} public key once:

  * an OID is allocated to identify this type of public key (it
will go into tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.algorithm.algorithm)
  * a set of associated optional parameters are defined for this
OID (to go into tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.algorithm.parameters)
  * a canonical encoding for this type of public key is defined,
so the key material can be enclosed into
tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.subjectPublicKey


This certificate may be RSA-signed or ECDSA-signed (or
whatever-signed, in fact).

For a CA to be able to Ed{25519,448,whatever}-sign something, the
previous steps must have been done, plus:

  * an OID is allocated to identify the signature algorithm to
apply (it will not be ECDSA) -> cert.signatureAlgorithm.algorithm
  * a set of associated optional parameters are defined for this
OID -> cert.signatureAlgorithm.parameters
  * a canonical encoding for the signature value is defined, so
it can be enclosed into cert.signatureValue


All this is being discussed at CFRG.


Le 29 juin 2016 à 16:46, Michael Scott > a écrit :

How do I do this? Using the OpenSSL command line tool, a
certificate request must be self-signed, but the X25519 elliptic
curve (newly supported in version 1.1.0), doesn't do signature,
it can only be used for key exchange.

(Of course the X25519 Montgomery curve is birationally
equivalent to an Edwards curve which can do signature. And
indeed it is our intention to use the Edwards curve. But first I
need a CA-signed X25519 cert. But because of the above catch-22
problem, I cannot create one.)


Enjoy

Jakob
--
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Transformervej 29, 2860 Søborg, Denmark.  Direct +45 31 13 16 10
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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Michael Scott]

Yes, I can certainly program my way out of the problem, but it would be
nice if the command line tool allowed me a way to do it.

Thanks!

Mike

On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Erwann Abalea 
wrote:

> Ok, you’re talking about OpenSSL command line tool only, I missed that
> part.
>
> The solution should then be to modify apps/ca.c:certify() function to add
> an arg, and avoid the call to X509_REQ_verify when desired.
>
> Cordialement,
> Erwann Abalea
>
> Le 29 juin 2016 à 19:17, Michael Scott  a écrit :
>
> Thanks Erwann, but that's not an answer to my question.
>
> To get the CA to sign (using RSA or anything) a certificate that contains
> an X25519 public key, that certificate must first submit to the CA
> something called a "Certificate request". This takes the form of the
> supplicant certificate, which is self-signed. However you cannot self-sign
> with an X25519 key (using the openssl command line tool), as it objects
> that X25519 does not support signature.
>
> So the issue arises around the "certificate request" process. There is I
> agree no problem in creating the certificate itself.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Erwann Abalea  > wrote:
>
>> Bonjour,
>>
>> You may have a classic certificate containing your
>> {X,Ed}{25519,448,whatever} public key once:
>>
>>- an OID is allocated to identify this type of public key (it will go
>>into tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.algorithm.algorithm)
>>- a set of associated optional parameters are defined for this OID
>>(to go into tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.algorithm.parameters)
>>- a canonical encoding for this type of public key is defined, so the
>>key material can be enclosed into 
>> tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.subjectPublicKey
>>
>>
>> This certificate may be RSA-signed or ECDSA-signed (or whatever-signed,
>> in fact).
>>
>> For a CA to be able to Ed{25519,448,whatever}-sign something, the
>> previous steps must have been done, plus:
>>
>>- an OID is allocated to identify the signature algorithm to apply
>>(it will not be ECDSA) -> cert.signatureAlgorithm.algorithm
>>- a set of associated optional parameters are defined for this OID ->
>>cert.signatureAlgorithm.parameters
>>- a canonical encoding for the signature value is defined, so it can
>>be enclosed into cert.signatureValue
>>
>>
>> All this is being discussed at CFRG.
>>
>> Cordialement,
>> Erwann Abalea
>>
>> Le 29 juin 2016 à 16:46, Michael Scott  a écrit :
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> How do I do this? Using the OpenSSL command line tool, a certificate
>> request must be self-signed, but the X25519 elliptic curve (newly supported
>> in version 1.1.0), doesn't do signature, it can only be used for key
>> exchange.
>>
>> (Of course the X25519 Montgomery curve is birationally equivalent to an
>> Edwards curve which can do signature. And indeed it is our intention to use
>> the Edwards curve. But first I need a CA-signed X25519 cert. But because of
>> the above catch-22 problem, I cannot create one.)
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Erwann Abalea]

Ok, you’re talking about OpenSSL command line tool only, I missed that part.

The solution should then be to modify apps/ca.c:certify() function to add an 
arg, and avoid the call to X509_REQ_verify when desired.

Cordialement,
Erwann Abalea

Le 29 juin 2016 à 19:17, Michael Scott 
> a écrit :

Thanks Erwann, but that's not an answer to my question.

To get the CA to sign (using RSA or anything) a certificate that contains an 
X25519 public key, that certificate must first submit to the CA something 
called a "Certificate request". This takes the form of the supplicant 
certificate, which is self-signed. However you cannot self-sign with an X25519 
key (using the openssl command line tool), as it objects that X25519 does not 
support signature.

So the issue arises around the "certificate request" process. There is I agree 
no problem in creating the certificate itself.


Mike



On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Erwann Abalea 
> wrote:
Bonjour,

You may have a classic certificate containing your {X,Ed}{25519,448,whatever} 
public key once:

  *   an OID is allocated to identify this type of public key (it will go into 
tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.algorithm.algorithm)
  *   a set of associated optional parameters are defined for this OID (to go 
into tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.algorithm.parameters)
  *   a canonical encoding for this type of public key is defined, so the key 
material can be enclosed into tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.subjectPublicKey

This certificate may be RSA-signed or ECDSA-signed (or whatever-signed, in 
fact).

For a CA to be able to Ed{25519,448,whatever}-sign something, the previous 
steps must have been done, plus:

  *   an OID is allocated to identify the signature algorithm to apply (it will 
not be ECDSA) -> cert.signatureAlgorithm.algorithm
  *   a set of associated optional parameters are defined for this OID -> 
cert.signatureAlgorithm.parameters
  *   a canonical encoding for the signature value is defined, so it can be 
enclosed into cert.signatureValue

All this is being discussed at CFRG.

Cordialement,
Erwann Abalea

Le 29 juin 2016 à 16:46, Michael Scott 
> a écrit :

Hello,


How do I do this? Using the OpenSSL command line tool, a certificate request 
must be self-signed, but the X25519 elliptic curve (newly supported in version 
1.1.0), doesn't do signature, it can only be used for key exchange.

(Of course the X25519 Montgomery curve is birationally equivalent to an Edwards 
curve which can do signature. And indeed it is our intention to use the Edwards 
curve. But first I need a CA-signed X25519 cert. But because of the above 
catch-22 problem, I cannot create one.)


Mike


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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Abe Racioppo]

tsets

On 6/29/16, Abe Racioppo  wrote:
> 290620161352
>
> On 6/29/16, Salz, Rich  wrote:
>>
>>> But surely the openssl command line tool should provide a mechanism for
>>> allowing an X25519-based certificate to be signed by a CA.
>>
>>> Its seems that the "certificate request" protocol, which requires
>>> self-signing, prevents this in this case.
>>
>> Yes, that is exactly the point.
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>
> --
> signature
>


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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Abe Racioppo]

290620161352

On 6/29/16, Salz, Rich  wrote:
>
>> But surely the openssl command line tool should provide a mechanism for
>> allowing an X25519-based certificate to be signed by a CA.
>
>> Its seems that the "certificate request" protocol, which requires
>> self-signing, prevents this in this case.
>
> Yes, that is exactly the point.
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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Salz, Rich]

> But surely the openssl command line tool should provide a mechanism for 
> allowing an X25519-based certificate to be signed by a CA. 

> Its seems that the "certificate request" protocol, which requires 
> self-signing, prevents this in this case.

Yes, that is exactly the point.
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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Michael Scott]

On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 6:21 PM, Salz, Rich  wrote:

>
> > To repeat: X25519 only supports key exchange.  The 25519 signing
> > mechanism is not yet defined.
>

Which I don't have a problem with.

But surely the openssl command line tool should provide a mechanism for
allowing an X25519-based certificate to be signed by a CA.

Its seems that the "certificate request" protocol, which requires
self-signing, prevents this in this case.


Mike


>
> And see also: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-curdle-pkix/
>
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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Salz, Rich]

> To repeat: X25519 only supports key exchange.  The 25519 signing
> mechanism is not yet defined.

And see also: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-curdle-pkix/

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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Salz, Rich]

>as it objects that X25519 does not support signature.  

To repeat: X25519 only supports key exchange.  The 25519 signing mechanism is 
not yet defined.
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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Michael Scott]

Thanks Erwann, but that's not an answer to my question.

To get the CA to sign (using RSA or anything) a certificate that contains
an X25519 public key, that certificate must first submit to the CA
something called a "Certificate request". This takes the form of the
supplicant certificate, which is self-signed. However you cannot self-sign
with an X25519 key (using the openssl command line tool), as it objects
that X25519 does not support signature.

So the issue arises around the "certificate request" process. There is I
agree no problem in creating the certificate itself.


Mike



On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Erwann Abalea 
wrote:

> Bonjour,
>
> You may have a classic certificate containing your
> {X,Ed}{25519,448,whatever} public key once:
>
>- an OID is allocated to identify this type of public key (it will go
>into tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.algorithm.algorithm)
>- a set of associated optional parameters are defined for this OID (to
>go into tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.algorithm.parameters)
>- a canonical encoding for this type of public key is defined, so the
>key material can be enclosed into tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.subjectPublicKey
>
>
> This certificate may be RSA-signed or ECDSA-signed (or whatever-signed, in
> fact).
>
> For a CA to be able to Ed{25519,448,whatever}-sign something, the previous
> steps must have been done, plus:
>
>- an OID is allocated to identify the signature algorithm to apply (it
>will not be ECDSA) -> cert.signatureAlgorithm.algorithm
>- a set of associated optional parameters are defined for this OID ->
>cert.signatureAlgorithm.parameters
>- a canonical encoding for the signature value is defined, so it can
>be enclosed into cert.signatureValue
>
>
> All this is being discussed at CFRG.
>
> Cordialement,
> Erwann Abalea
>
> Le 29 juin 2016 à 16:46, Michael Scott  a écrit :
>
> Hello,
>
>
> How do I do this? Using the OpenSSL command line tool, a certificate
> request must be self-signed, but the X25519 elliptic curve (newly supported
> in version 1.1.0), doesn't do signature, it can only be used for key
> exchange.
>
> (Of course the X25519 Montgomery curve is birationally equivalent to an
> Edwards curve which can do signature. And indeed it is our intention to use
> the Edwards curve. But first I need a CA-signed X25519 cert. But because of
> the above catch-22 problem, I cannot create one.)
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> --
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> To unsubscribe: https://mta.openssl.org/mailman/listinfo/openssl-users
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>
>
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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Erwann Abalea]

Bonjour,

You may have a classic certificate containing your {X,Ed}{25519,448,whatever} 
public key once:

  *   an OID is allocated to identify this type of public key (it will go into 
tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.algorithm.algorithm)
  *   a set of associated optional parameters are defined for this OID (to go 
into tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.algorithm.parameters)
  *   a canonical encoding for this type of public key is defined, so the key 
material can be enclosed into tbs.subjectPublicKeyInfo.subjectPublicKey

This certificate may be RSA-signed or ECDSA-signed (or whatever-signed, in 
fact).

For a CA to be able to Ed{25519,448,whatever}-sign something, the previous 
steps must have been done, plus:

  *   an OID is allocated to identify the signature algorithm to apply (it will 
not be ECDSA) -> cert.signatureAlgorithm.algorithm
  *   a set of associated optional parameters are defined for this OID -> 
cert.signatureAlgorithm.parameters
  *   a canonical encoding for the signature value is defined, so it can be 
enclosed into cert.signatureValue

All this is being discussed at CFRG.

Cordialement,
Erwann Abalea

Le 29 juin 2016 à 16:46, Michael Scott 
> a écrit :

Hello,


How do I do this? Using the OpenSSL command line tool, a certificate request 
must be self-signed, but the X25519 elliptic curve (newly supported in version 
1.1.0), doesn't do signature, it can only be used for key exchange.

(Of course the X25519 Montgomery curve is birationally equivalent to an Edwards 
curve which can do signature. And indeed it is our intention to use the Edwards 
curve. But first I need a CA-signed X25519 cert. But because of the above 
catch-22 problem, I cannot create one.)


Mike


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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Salz, Rich]

> 1. What is CFRG, I don't remember that acronym.

Crypto Forum Research Group,  part of the IETF's affiliated research group.  
Co-chair is Kenny Paterson of lucky-13 (etc).  Useful documents here as well as 
pointers to the mailing list https://datatracker.ietf.org/rg/cfrg/documents/  

> 2. What is the general procedure for generating a CSR for
>an encryption-only algorithm, such as DH, ECDH etc.?

I don't know of one.
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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Michael Scott]

WellI can help with CFRG - its Crypto Forum Research Group.

Mike


On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Jakob Bohm  wrote:

> On 29/06/2016 16:53, Salz, Rich wrote:
>
>> How do I do this? Using the OpenSSL command line tool, a certificate
>>> request must be self-signed, but the X25519 elliptic curve (newly supported
>>> in version 1.1.0), doesn't do signature, it can only be used for key
>>> exchange.
>>>
>> You cannot do it.
>>
>> You should look at the CFRG documents on Ed25519.
>>
>> This raises two general questions:
>
> 1. What is CFRG, I don't remember that acronym.
>
> 2. What is the general procedure for generating a CSR for
>   an encryption-only algorithm, such as DH, ECDH etc.?
>
> Enjoy
>
> Jakob
> --
> Jakob Bohm, CIO, Partner, WiseMo A/S.  https://www.wisemo.com
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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Jakob Bohm]

On 29/06/2016 16:53, Salz, Rich wrote:

How do I do this? Using the OpenSSL command line tool, a certificate request 
must be self-signed, but the X25519 elliptic curve (newly supported in version 
1.1.0), doesn't do signature, it can only be used for key exchange.

You cannot do it.

You should look at the CFRG documents on Ed25519.


This raises two general questions:

1. What is CFRG, I don't remember that acronym.

2. What is the general procedure for generating a CSR for
  an encryption-only algorithm, such as DH, ECDH etc.?

Enjoy

Jakob
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WiseMo - Remote Service Management for PCs, Phones and Embedded

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Re: [openssl-users] Creating an X25519-based Certificate

[Salz, Rich]

> How do I do this? Using the OpenSSL command line tool, a certificate request 
> must be self-signed, but the X25519 elliptic curve (newly supported in 
> version 1.1.0), doesn't do signature, it can only be used for key exchange.

You cannot do it.

You should look at the CFRG documents on Ed25519.

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