Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Wouter Verhelst]

On 13-05-16 16:56, Steve Marquess wrote:

We have considered this approach, in detail, and the comfort level isn't
there. A requirement of their 501(c) status for such organizations is
that they can't make any commitments as to how funds raised in our name
will be spent.


AIUI, the reason for that is solely that they cannot agree to make any 
payments that could be considered to be illegal. This is for obvious 
reasons; other than that, SPI does not set any rules on what member 
projects choose to do with their funds:


  "Member projects are free to use the funds allocated to them at their
   descretion, as long as such usage is consistent with U.S. laws and
   regulations, and within the constraints of SPI's certificate of
   incorporation and bylaws"

(from http://spi-inc.org/donations/)

The certificate of incorporation and bylaws do not seem to impose any 
further restrictions--but don't take my word for it (they're both 
available on their website).



We would have to trust their good judgment in deciding
how those funds were used.


Actually, as a member project, you would gain the right to vote or stand 
for election in SPI's internal elections, and in doing so would be able 
to exert influence over SPI's decisions.


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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Steve Marquess]

On 05/13/2016 10:35 AM, Tucker Moreau wrote:
> Hey,
> 
> Have you considered reaching out to a group like Software in the
> Public Interest and accepting donations through them? It's how Debian,
> Arch, and several others take donations exactly so they don't have to
> deal with the trouble of banks that you're going through now.
> Admittedly, it sounds somewhat worrying that OpenSSL itself wouldn't
> hold the funds directly this way, but I suppose it's better than
> having the funds indefinitely locked in PayPal or not being able to
> take donations at all.

We have considered this approach, in detail, and the comfort level isn't
there. A requirement of their 501(c) status for such organizations is
that they can't make any commitments as to how funds raised in our name
will be spent. We would have to trust their good judgment in deciding
how those funds were used. We found that such arrangements haven't
always worked out as intended, and at any rate the OpenSSL team places a
very high priority on maintaining independence from undue outside
influence. If this outside charity were to accumulate a significant
amount of funding then that would constitute undue influence.

FWiW when this was discussed I made exactly that argument to my
colleagues; that we'd be better off entrusting a third party with
donations than losing them entirely. But, there was a strong consensus
that clearly established independence trumped any hypothetical financial
gain. We have turned down other donations-with-strings opportunities in
the past for similar reasons.

Also, while we value the individual donations received via PayPal, the
bulk of our donation funding has been received via bank transfers
(Swift/ACH), and that is unaffected by the closing of our PayPal account.

-Steve M.

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+1 301 874 2571 direct
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Tucker Moreau]

Hey,

Have you considered reaching out to a group like Software in the
Public Interest and accepting donations through them? It's how Debian,
Arch, and several others take donations exactly so they don't have to
deal with the trouble of banks that you're going through now.
Admittedly, it sounds somewhat worrying that OpenSSL itself wouldn't
hold the funds directly this way, but I suppose it's better than
having the funds indefinitely locked in PayPal or not being able to
take donations at all.

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Steve Marquess
 wrote:
> We've had a PayPal account for years, as the most convenient way for
> individuals to send small donations. However, as the person who has
> managed that account I can attest that PayPal has always been rather
> annoying to deal with, and I've finally hit my limit. I'm in the process
> of closing that account (something PayPal makes unnecessarily difficult
> and protracted). I was able to refund most of the recent donations that
> we were unable to recover, leaving a balance of $259.45 that will either
> be forfeited to PayPal or (hopefully) refunded by them back to the
> original donors.
>
> The PayPal donate link ("button") on our web site has been removed. I've
> asked PayPal to block any future inbound transactions while we fight
> over the account closure, but can't be confident that was done. Please
> do not donate via PayPal to any account claiming to represent us; such
> donations won't go to us and may not ever be returned to you.
>
> This closure of the only convenient means of receiving small donations
> does not mean that we do not value such donations. Those of you who have
> donated via PayPal, many via recurring donations, have our gratitude and
> thanks. I regret that there is no clear alternative to switch to instead
> (suggestions welcome if there are options I'm unaware of).
>
> -Steve M.
>
> --
> Steve Marquess
> OpenSSL Software Foundation
> 20-22 Wenlock Road
> London N1 7GU
> United Kingdom
> +44 1785508015
> +1 301 874 2571 direct
> marqu...@opensslfoundation.org
> ste...@openssl.org
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Johann v . Preußen]

dwolla: yes, i keyed off your comment re getting your last $'s from paypal and 
thought they would work for your donations: US, at least. and then somebody like 
Citi (a globally top-three credit card issuer) could handle accounts in GBP and 
EURO in London with a relatively small translation cost for Nordics and other 
Euro-peripherals into either London pool.


the rest of the globe would probably be cheaper to come into NYC in USD. if you 
spend in GBP/EURO you would do so from those accounts with no translation costs. 
of course, you can concentrate the funds where ever you might need them as the 
need arises.


OK, that type of a system takes a bit of effort to get going; but then it is 
quite low-cost and easy to actually run. *however, if you are looking for some 
sort of a paypal "drop-in" one that i am familiar with is propay.*


 * they have some concessionary pricing for non-profits (you can just provide
   proof of your "exempt" DE status).
 * i am not sure what their currency translation hits might be since i only
   know about a US set-up.
 * they do non-swipe cards at 2.2%+$0.25 (no surprise: except for Am Ex which
   you do not have to accept).
 * they do ACH, but have a percentage applied (less than 1%) instead of a much
   lower per-transaction fee.
 * transaction fees might get even lower if your volume is attractive to them.
 * no other fees at all.
 * they also have a bunch of API's you can choose from.
 * one added feature that may interest you is they have a means whereby you can
   post an anchor in social media sites to capture donations back to their 
system.
 * they also do the maximum PCI isolation so that you do not have to worry re 
that.
 * they have an "auto-sweep" function every couple of days for depositing into
   your current bank account which can be altered to your own preferred 
schedule.
 * you can establish multiple accounts if you have FX disbursement needs such
   as GBP and/or Euro and then there would be no attendant translation costs.

of course, this is also a place where you can leverage your org's rep to 
possibly get even better terms. you could start at their non-profit page and 
look on from there and see if there are more features i do not know about:

http://www.propay.com/affiliate/charity/?refid=charity

--
Thank you,

Johann v. Preußen


On 2016.May.12 09:42, Steve Marquess wrote:

On 05/12/2016 09:39 AM, Steve Marquess wrote:

On 05/11/2016 06:04 PM, Johann v. Preußen wrote:

i am sorry if i have wasted your time on non-profit formation and
taxation issues when i put my CPA hat on. i originally meant to point
out some banking alternatives and how to make certain you could qualify
and control such with the non-profit formation as a means and California
as a low-cost conduit.

Not a waste; despite working these issues for some time I remain ever
hopeful that there is indeed a simple solution that has to date escaped
us. Or even a complex one for that matter.

...

Dwolla I'll call when they open for business. I suspect we'll run into
the U.S. web server location issue, but I'll check.

-Steve M.


That was a short call; Dwolla only handles payments from within the
U.S., and the great bulk of our donations come from outside the U.S.

-Steve M.





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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Steve Marquess]

On 05/12/2016 09:39 AM, Steve Marquess wrote:
> On 05/11/2016 06:04 PM, Johann v. Preußen wrote:
>> i am sorry if i have wasted your time on non-profit formation and
>> taxation issues when i put my CPA hat on. i originally meant to point
>> out some banking alternatives and how to make certain you could qualify
>> and control such with the non-profit formation as a means and California
>> as a low-cost conduit.
> 
> Not a waste; despite working these issues for some time I remain ever
> hopeful that there is indeed a simple solution that has to date escaped
> us. Or even a complex one for that matter.
> 
> ...
>
> Dwolla I'll call when they open for business. I suspect we'll run into
> the U.S. web server location issue, but I'll check.
> 
> -Steve M.
> 

That was a short call; Dwolla only handles payments from within the
U.S., and the great bulk of our donations come from outside the U.S.

-Steve M.

-- 
Steve Marquess
OpenSSL Validation Services, Inc.
1829 Mount Ephraim Road
Adamstown, MD  21710
USA
+1 877 673 6775 s/b
+1 301 874 2571 direct
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Steve Marquess]

On 05/11/2016 06:04 PM, Johann v. Preußen wrote:
> i am sorry if i have wasted your time on non-profit formation and
> taxation issues when i put my CPA hat on. i originally meant to point
> out some banking alternatives and how to make certain you could qualify
> and control such with the non-profit formation as a means and California
> as a low-cost conduit.

Not a waste; despite working these issues for some time I remain ever
hopeful that there is indeed a simple solution that has to date escaped
us. Or even a complex one for that matter.

I have also conflated other issues in what started out as an online
payment thread :-)

> 
> if you are already set up in DE, you can take advantage of the free
> in-/out-ACH, web API's, and mass-pay at dwolla (tied to any existing
> bank account(s) you have now or in the future) and
> internationally-scoped banking through Citi or some such. i suggested
> Ally Bank only because they offer free services: in-bound SWIFT,
> in-/out-bound domestic US wire transfers, and checking. also, their $10
> fee for out-bound SWIFT is the lowest i know of for non-analysis (low
> running-balance) checking acct's.

Citibank and Ally are both U.S. banks, we already have multiple U.S.
bank accounts. We don't do a lot of transactions (other than online
donation payments) so the per-transaction fees are not a major
consideration, nor are they onerous with our current U.S. bank.

Dwolla I'll call when they open for business. I suspect we'll run into
the U.S. web server location issue, but I'll check.

-Steve M.

-- 
Steve Marquess
OpenSSL Software Foundation
20-22 Wenlock Road
London N1 7GU
United Kingdom
+44 1785508015
+1 301 874 2571 direct
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Johann v . Preußen]

i am sorry if i have wasted your time on non-profit formation and taxation 
issues when i put my CPA hat on. i originally meant to point out some banking 
alternatives and how to make certain you could qualify and control such with the 
non-profit formation as a means and California as a low-cost conduit.


if you are already set up in DE, you can take advantage of the free in-/out-ACH, 
web API's, and mass-pay at dwolla (tied to any existing bank account(s) you have 
now or in the future) and internationally-scoped banking through Citi or some 
such. i suggested Ally Bank only because they offer free services: in-bound 
SWIFT, in-/out-bound domestic US wire transfers, and checking. also, their $10 
fee for out-bound SWIFT is the lowest i know of for non-analysis (low 
running-balance) checking acct's.


--
Thank you,

Johann v. Preußen


On 2016.May.11 14:15, Steve Marquess wrote:

On 05/11/2016 04:56 PM, Johann v. Preußen wrote:

i am somewhat surprised your attorneys have not mentioned the most
simplistic solution. if the sole purpose for incorporating is to
implement banking, there is actually no need to register for an IRS
letter. if you satisfy the state regulations and obtain an EIN you are
fine. the IRS letter does give safe harbor to donors that the amounts
given are federally deductible. of course, to your major donors who
provide moneys under grants and/or contracts there is no practical
tax-wise difference between "gift" and "business expense".

...

State taxation isn't a problem; OpenSSL Software Foundation is
incorporated in Delaware which has no tax. U.S. tax deductibility is
largely irrelevant to our donors, most of which are outside the U.S.


all of that said, there are plenty of examples of open-source org's that
are already IRS-recognized under IRC 501(c)(3) such as Software in the
Public Interest, Apache, Eclipse Foundation, Open Source Initiative,
Linux Foundation, Software Freedom Conservancy, and many more. i have
noticed, though, what your attorneys have related to you in that the IRS
has recently seemed to turn a blind eye to the "public benefit" clause
when it comes to open-source software. this is a trend of just a couple

Bingo.


of years and turns from the path they had followed for decades in
granting acceptance. if someone took the time to copy/edit one of these
org's by-laws and submitted to the IRS they would be hard-pressed to
deny based on the facts and would have to reveal a decidedly
philosophical reason which would be wide open to appeal. naturally, i
have no idea if any of this extra effort would yield anything meaningful
to openssl. ...

Be my guest and go for it, but I do have a good idea if it would yield
anything meaningful because I've been working this issue in detail for a
couple of years now. Our attorneys (we've checked with several, and with
ones experienced with 501(c)) don't see a viable path worth the
substantial investment it would cost us.

-Steve M.








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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Steve Marquess]

On 05/11/2016 04:56 PM, Johann v. Preußen wrote:
> i am somewhat surprised your attorneys have not mentioned the most
> simplistic solution. if the sole purpose for incorporating is to
> implement banking, there is actually no need to register for an IRS
> letter. if you satisfy the state regulations and obtain an EIN you are
> fine. the IRS letter does give safe harbor to donors that the amounts
> given are federally deductible. of course, to your major donors who
> provide moneys under grants and/or contracts there is no practical
> tax-wise difference between "gift" and "business expense".
> 
> ...

State taxation isn't a problem; OpenSSL Software Foundation is
incorporated in Delaware which has no tax. U.S. tax deductibility is
largely irrelevant to our donors, most of which are outside the U.S.

> 
> all of that said, there are plenty of examples of open-source org's that
> are already IRS-recognized under IRC 501(c)(3) such as Software in the
> Public Interest, Apache, Eclipse Foundation, Open Source Initiative,
> Linux Foundation, Software Freedom Conservancy, and many more. i have
> noticed, though, what your attorneys have related to you in that the IRS
> has recently seemed to turn a blind eye to the "public benefit" clause
> when it comes to open-source software. this is a trend of just a couple

Bingo.

> of years and turns from the path they had followed for decades in
> granting acceptance. if someone took the time to copy/edit one of these
> org's by-laws and submitted to the IRS they would be hard-pressed to
> deny based on the facts and would have to reveal a decidedly
> philosophical reason which would be wide open to appeal. naturally, i
> have no idea if any of this extra effort would yield anything meaningful
> to openssl. ...

Be my guest and go for it, but I do have a good idea if it would yield
anything meaningful because I've been working this issue in detail for a
couple of years now. Our attorneys (we've checked with several, and with
ones experienced with 501(c)) don't see a viable path worth the
substantial investment it would cost us.

-Steve M.



-- 
Steve Marquess
OpenSSL Software Foundation
20-22 Wenlock Road
London N1 7GU
United Kingdom
+44 1785508015
+1 301 874 2571 direct
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Johann v . Preußen]

i am somewhat surprised your attorneys have not mentioned the most simplistic 
solution. if the sole purpose for incorporating is to implement banking, there 
is actually no need to register for an IRS letter. if you satisfy the state 
regulations and obtain an EIN you are fine. the IRS letter does give safe harbor 
to donors that the amounts given are federally deductible. of course, to your 
major donors who provide moneys under grants and/or contracts there is no 
practical tax-wise difference between "gift" and "business expense".


if you would like the specifics re CA, here are the applicable links granting 
freedom from CA taxation and franchise fees and establishing subsequent Federal 
tax-filing status:

*the state equivalent of IRC 501(c)(3):*
https://www.ftb.ca.gov/businesses/Exempt_organizations/Types_of_Exemptions.shtml#d23701
*your qualifications under "Scientific" endeavors:*
https://www.ftb.ca.gov/businesses/Exempt_organizations/Types_of_Exemptions.shtml#Scientific
*your qualifications under "Educational" endeavors:*
https://www.ftb.ca.gov/businesses/Exempt_organizations/Types_of_Exemptions.shtml#Educational_org

all of that said, there are plenty of examples of open-source org's that are 
already IRS-recognized under IRC 501(c)(3) such as Software in the Public 
Interest, Apache, Eclipse Foundation, Open Source Initiative,
Linux Foundation, Software Freedom Conservancy, and many more. i have noticed, 
though, what your attorneys have related to you in that the IRS has recently 
seemed to turn a blind eye to the "public benefit" clause when it comes to 
open-source software. this is a trend of just a couple of years and turns from 
the path they had followed for decades in granting acceptance. if someone took 
the time to copy/edit one of these org's by-laws and submitted to the IRS they 
would be hard-pressed to deny based on the facts and would have to reveal a 
decidedly philosophical reason which would be wide open to appeal. naturally, i 
have no idea if any of this extra effort would yield anything meaningful to 
openssl. certainly, qualifying for non-profit status in CA actually grants you 
what you really need and does not require any extra efforts.


--
Thank you,

Johann v. Preußen


On 2016.May.11 13:00, Steve Marquess wrote:

On 05/11/2016 02:46 PM, Johann v. Preußen wrote:

Marquess:

your treasury re-alignment might be simplified a bit if you look to an
on-line-type bank such as Ally Bank. ...

It's a U.S. bank. We already have multiple U.S. bank accounts.


you have mentioned server-siting and non-US personnel as control agents
as somewhat problematic. i might suggest a simple and very low-cost
means of obviating these concerns. if openssl were to incorporate as a
type IRS Reg 501(c)(3) it would satisfy US Treasury Reg's and make life
a lot easier. ...

Yes, it would indeed, and if I had a nickel for each time I've heard
this suggestion I'd had enough beer I'd need never face sobriety again.

We have pursued 501(c) with several attorneys, all of which have advised
us that our chances of successfully obtaining 501(c)(3) or 501(c)(6)
status are nil. Apparently the IRS does not look kindly on our type of
open source project.

That is one of the reasons we need to relocate outside of U.S. jurisdiction.

-Steve M.





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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Steve Marquess]

On 05/11/2016 02:46 PM, Johann v. Preußen wrote:
> Marquess:
> 
> your treasury re-alignment might be simplified a bit if you look to an
> on-line-type bank such as Ally Bank. ...

It's a U.S. bank. We already have multiple U.S. bank accounts.

> you have mentioned server-siting and non-US personnel as control agents
> as somewhat problematic. i might suggest a simple and very low-cost
> means of obviating these concerns. if openssl were to incorporate as a
> type IRS Reg 501(c)(3) it would satisfy US Treasury Reg's and make life
> a lot easier. ...

Yes, it would indeed, and if I had a nickel for each time I've heard
this suggestion I'd had enough beer I'd need never face sobriety again.

We have pursued 501(c) with several attorneys, all of which have advised
us that our chances of successfully obtaining 501(c)(3) or 501(c)(6)
status are nil. Apparently the IRS does not look kindly on our type of
open source project.

That is one of the reasons we need to relocate outside of U.S. jurisdiction.

-Steve M.

-- 
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OpenSSL Validation Services, Inc.
1829 Mount Ephraim Road
Adamstown, MD  21710
USA
+1 877 673 6775 s/b
+1 301 874 2571 direct
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Johann v . Preußen]

Marquess:

your treasury re-alignment might be simplified a bit if you look to an 
on-line-type bank such as Ally Bank. while they are not on the SWIFT network, 
they use Chase -- like many intermediate-sized banks -- and benefit from having 
the "wholesale" rate between themselves. this enables Ally to give you free 
in-coming SWIFT and free in-coming/out-going domestic US wire transfers. 
out-going SWIFT is only $10. out-going ACH is also free, but they do not provide 
an API for in-coming ACH so that would require a third-party processor to make 
that happen on a web-site or automated/directed basis.


fortunately, such a processor is dwolla which has several API's in different 
codings and offers free in-/out-processing with clearance that usually happens 
no later than the second day after initiation. since ACH has a built-in deferred 
relay of the next business day after preliminary settlement, this speed is about 
as good as it gets. since using a dwolla API also lifts the PCI responsibility 
from openssl, you would receive all your US-based donations at no-cost, quickly, 
and without much regulatory worry. in fact, dwolla allows you to tie in more 
than a single bank account so that you can choose where to "sweep" accumulated 
funds according to momentary needs.


dwolla also has a "white-label" API that totally obscures their role in the 
process. they do charge for this, but the fact that your org is so prominent in 
the net security field would no doubt favorably prompt them to throw this 
service in for free just so they could tout openssl as a client. i am also 
certain they would be more than happy to provide free app customization tailored 
to openssl's specific needs.


if multi-currency is a concern, Citibank offers primary bank account and card 
services in NYC and London permitting a wide range of denominations (USD, GBP, 
EURO, et cetera) from which to base such transactions. also, NYC/London do not 
have to be the same denomination and enjoy free inter-account transfers. from my 
experience, Citi also runs currency translations with much narrower spreads than 
other large banks and third-party gateways. as might be expected for this mega 
bank, their basket of services over-flows and they are lower-cost than other 
major banks when the services are not free!


you have mentioned server-siting and non-US personnel as control agents as 
somewhat problematic. i might suggest a simple and very low-cost means of 
obviating these concerns. if openssl were to incorporate as a type IRS Reg 
501(c)(3) it would satisfy US Treasury Reg's and make life a lot easier. in 
California (one of the lowest-cost states) that would cost you $30 to 
incorporate, $20 to file the SI-100 info form, and $25 to register with the FTB. 
you would also have to register with the CA Attorney General, but that is free. 
thus, for a start-up fee of $75 and a bi-annual SI-100 fee of $20 you would be 
in business and could open any US-based bank account your heart desires and make 
possible using a bank such as Citibank with accounts both in NYC and London to 
meet your international banking needs. since the corporation is a domestic one, 
bank signature cards can be initiated for anyone no matter where they may be 
citizens/domiciled. server siting is no problem for ACH since the natural 
limitation of the sending/receiving accounts being US-based means where the 
servers might be is totally unimportant.


at this time, i am not a client or agent of any of the firms herein mentioned 
and i do not look to receiving any remuneration resulting from any of my 
suggestions.


--
Thank you,

Johann v. Preußen


On 2016.May.06 08:06, Steve Marquess wrote:

On 05/06/2016 10:29 AM, Jakob Bohm wrote:

On 06/05/2016 15:26, Steve Marquess wrote:

On 05/06/2016 09:14 AM, Jakob Bohm wrote:

On 06/05/2016 13:45, Salz, Rich wrote:

Consider having the non-U.S. person do the account setup too.

Banks are as scared of US jurisdiction as crypto engineers.

Yeah, we've done that.  Even to the point where one of the team was
going to get on a plane to fly to the Isle of Mann.

It's amazingly painful and difficult and so far not productive.

If folks want to give OpenSSL money, mail a check or cash.

I was thinking of the more simple solution of setting up
the account in the same non-US bank where the team member
does his other business.  Lots of this tends to get easier
when the person is an existing customer and the bank is
nearby.

Each non-US team member presumably has at least one existing
bank relationship and presumably knowledge and/or easy access
to information on how to set up an independent legal entity
in his/her own country.

Personal bank accounts, yes. But, we don't want to entangle OpenSSL
funds with any team members personal finances. Those funds need to be
held by an independent OpenSSL legal entity (of which there are already
several). Also keep in mind that most of my colleagues are hardcore
geeks best suited to 

Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Steve Marquess]

On 05/05/2016 04:41 PM, Steve Marquess wrote:
> We've had a PayPal account for years, as the most convenient way for
> individuals to send small donations. However, as the person who has
> managed that account I can attest that PayPal has always been rather
> annoying to deal with, and I've finally hit my limit. I'm in the process
> of closing that account (something PayPal makes unnecessarily difficult
> and protracted). I was able to refund most of the recent donations that
> we were unable to recover, leaving a balance of $259.45 that will either
> be forfeited to PayPal or (hopefully) refunded by them back to the
> original donors.
> 
> The PayPal donate link ("button") on our web site has been removed. I've
> asked PayPal to block any future inbound transactions while we fight
> over the account closure, but can't be confident that was done. Please
> do not donate via PayPal to any account claiming to represent us; such
> donations won't go to us and may not ever be returned to you.
> 
> This closure of the only convenient means of receiving small donations
> does not mean that we do not value such donations. Those of you who have
> donated via PayPal, many via recurring donations, have our gratitude and
> thanks. I regret that there is no clear alternative to switch to instead
> (suggestions welcome if there are options I'm unaware of).
> 
> -Steve M.
> 

After another half hour of "your call is important to us" recordings, I
have apparently succeeded in closing our PayPal account. I was promised
that the 29 donations totaling $258.48 that I was unable to either
withdraw or refund will be refunded directly by PayPal.

Thanks again to all the donors who have support OpenSSL, via PayPal or
other means. I'm looking into alternatives for account free online
payments, so far without success.

-Steve M.

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OpenSSL Software Foundation
20-22 Wenlock Road
London N1 7GU
United Kingdom
+44 1785508015
+1 301 874 2571 direct
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Steve Marquess
 wrote:
> We've had a PayPal account for years, as the most convenient way for
> individuals to send small donations. However, as the person who has
> managed that account I can attest that PayPal has always been rather
> annoying to deal with, and I've finally hit my limit.

PayPal is renowned for poor customer service; confer,
http://www.google.com/search?q=paypal+sucks.

Get some bumper stickers and pins made up with the OpenSSL logo. Sell
them on Amazon and eBay for the value of a donation - $10, $25, etc.

Based on some estimates, Amazon and eBay will provide the Foundation's
presence at online retail stores that handle 75% of online spending
(c., 
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/amazon-will-account-for-more-than-half-of-2015-e-commerce-growth-says-macquarie-2015-12-22).

Jeff
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[mlrx]

Le 06/05/2016 17:06, Steve Marquess a écrit :
> [...]
> 
> That is definitely true, which is how I was able to get our local U.S.
> bank here to allow signature access to our accounts by non-U.S.
> colleagues. It's important that our OpenSSL funding not be accessible by
> only one person, as that person could be run over by a beer truck.
> 
> Unfortunately a U.S. bank is less than ideal for a non-U.S. centric
> organization with funding largely originating from, and spent, outside
> the U.S.
> 
> We have been less successful in finding a non-U.S. bank willing to have
> us as a customer, and not for lack of trying. If you know of a
> *specific* bank that would help us please name it (offline if need be).
> If we haven't already tried them we will.
> 
>> Throw in the prospect of earning transaction fees on an
>> associated Merchant account, and motivation can grow
>> further.
> 
> The U.S. payment processors I've talked to don't like the fact that our
> web servers are all located outside the U.S. Based on an offline tip
> from another user I've spent a good part of this morning on the phone
> with a global payments provider; we're at the familiar "uh, we'll have
> to run this by underwriting" stage.
> 
> -Steve M.

Hello,

Maybe the french ethical and cooperative bank "LA NEF" ?

Their views must be reconciled with the "free world." Their status
has recently changed to become a full-power rights bank; their range
of service is not yet complete but they are working hard to make them
born.

best regards,
-- 
benoist

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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Salz, Rich]

> Seriously,
> As copyright owners you can rescind license permissions as you wish.
> 
> Contact this person:
> https://www.irs.gov/uac/Commissioner-John-Koskinen
> and give them 30 days to purge any and all use of OpenSSL from the irs.gov
> network.
> A specific license withdrawal.
> 
> You should at least be able to start a useful conversation that way.

Sure, like "how about audits Mr {Salz,Marquess,Dukhovni}" -- some of us are US 
Citizens :)

More importantly, it violates the spirit of OSS...
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Mike]

On Fri, 6 May 2016 08:06:48 -0400
Steve Marquess  wrote:

> On 05/06/2016 07:45 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:
> >> Consider having the non-U.S. person do the account setup too.
> >>
> >> Banks are as scared of US jurisdiction as crypto engineers.
> > 
> > Yeah, we've done that.  Even to the point where one of the team was
> > going to get on a plane to fly to the Isle of Mann.
> > 
> > It's amazingly painful and difficult and so far not productive.
> > 
> > ...
> 
> FATCA means that no "U.S. person" can have any access to the bank
> account; we are well and painfully aware of that, and it's not a
> problem. Only three of us fall in that category anyway; OpenSSL is
> not a U.S. centric organization. Our U.S. connections are only due to
> the circumstantial fact that the OpenSSL team member (me) who
> initially set up our banking arrangements happened to be American.
> 

Lower left column:
https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Corporations/Foreign-Account-Tax-Compliance-Act-FATCA

You just have to love that:
...in addition to FoBAR reporting.  ;)

= = = = =

Seriously,
As copyright owners you can rescind license permissions as you wish.

Contact this person:
https://www.irs.gov/uac/Commissioner-John-Koskinen
and give them 30 days to purge any and all use of OpenSSL from the
irs.gov network.
A specific license withdrawal.

You should at least be able to start a useful conversation that way.

Mike

> -Steve M.
> 

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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Steve Marquess]

On 05/06/2016 10:44 AM, Bear Giles wrote:
> Is it possible to set up two accounts, one US and one non-US, and then
> just transfer funds between them? It would be more work than setting up
> a single account but would eliminate a single point of failure risk.

Our U.S. bank has been great to work with, and we'll probably keep some
limited funding with them indefinitely. One drawback of that bank is
that they are unable to accept inbound Swift transactions.

It's the non-U.S. bank account that has been the challenge. It took me
awhile to figure out that FATCA was a fatal impediment to having any
involvement by U.S. citizens (e.g. me), but that's not essential. We've
switched our strategy to having no "U.S. person" involvement in our
non-U.S. corporate entities, but still haven't been able to find a bank
that will have us as a customer.

Given our difficulties to date, and the experience with apparently
successfully opening an account only to have that bank abruptly close it
a week later, I definitely would like to have more than one non-U.S.
account. At present the OpenSSL entities have multiple U.S. bank
accounts; managing multiple existing accounts isn't the problem.

-Steve M.

-- 
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OpenSSL Validation Services, Inc.
1829 Mount Ephraim Road
Adamstown, MD  21710
USA
+1 877 673 6775 s/b
+1 301 874 2571 direct
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Steve Marquess]

On 05/06/2016 10:29 AM, Jakob Bohm wrote:
> On 06/05/2016 15:26, Steve Marquess wrote:
>> On 05/06/2016 09:14 AM, Jakob Bohm wrote:
>>> On 06/05/2016 13:45, Salz, Rich wrote:
> Consider having the non-U.S. person do the account setup too.
>
> Banks are as scared of US jurisdiction as crypto engineers.
 Yeah, we've done that.  Even to the point where one of the team was
 going to get on a plane to fly to the Isle of Mann.

 It's amazingly painful and difficult and so far not productive.

 If folks want to give OpenSSL money, mail a check or cash.
>>> I was thinking of the more simple solution of setting up
>>> the account in the same non-US bank where the team member
>>> does his other business.  Lots of this tends to get easier
>>> when the person is an existing customer and the bank is
>>> nearby.
>>>
>>> Each non-US team member presumably has at least one existing
>>> bank relationship and presumably knowledge and/or easy access
>>> to information on how to set up an independent legal entity
>>> in his/her own country.
>> Personal bank accounts, yes. But, we don't want to entangle OpenSSL
>> funds with any team members personal finances. Those funds need to be
>> held by an independent OpenSSL legal entity (of which there are already
>> several). Also keep in mind that most of my colleagues are hardcore
>> geeks best suited to wrangling OpenSSL code. I try to handle as many
>> paperwork hassles as possible to free them for that more important
>> activity.
> I was trying to say that retail banks can be very helpful
> when an existing personal account holder wants to set up a
> business account with themselves as a signatory (but not
> owner).  Especially if the legal entity (new or existing)
> is also within their jurisdiction.
> 
> Things like checking if the person is who his says he is,
> checking if the initial deposit is from a suspect source
> etc. become much simpler when the bank recognizes the
> person as someone they have worked with for years and the
> initial money source as an account that was the
> correspondent with past checks or other traceable
> transfers to/from that known person (all according to the
> banks own records).

That is definitely true, which is how I was able to get our local U.S.
bank here to allow signature access to our accounts by non-U.S.
colleagues. It's important that our OpenSSL funding not be accessible by
only one person, as that person could be run over by a beer truck.

Unfortunately a U.S. bank is less than ideal for a non-U.S. centric
organization with funding largely originating from, and spent, outside
the U.S.

We have been less successful in finding a non-U.S. bank willing to have
us as a customer, and not for lack of trying. If you know of a
*specific* bank that would help us please name it (offline if need be).
If we haven't already tried them we will.

> Throw in the prospect of earning transaction fees on an
> associated Merchant account, and motivation can grow
> further.

The U.S. payment processors I've talked to don't like the fact that our
web servers are all located outside the U.S. Based on an offline tip
from another user I've spent a good part of this morning on the phone
with a global payments provider; we're at the familiar "uh, we'll have
to run this by underwriting" stage.

-Steve M.

-- 
Steve Marquess
OpenSSL Validation Services, Inc.
1829 Mount Ephraim Road
Adamstown, MD  21710
USA
+1 877 673 6775 s/b
+1 301 874 2571 direct
marqu...@openssl.com
gpg/pgp key: http://openssl.com/docs/0x6D1892F5.asc
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Bear Giles]

Is it possible to set up two accounts, one US and one non-US, and then just
transfer funds between them? It would be more work than setting up a single
account but would eliminate a single point of failure risk.

Bear

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 8:29 AM, Jakob Bohm  wrote:

> On 06/05/2016 15:26, Steve Marquess wrote:
>
>> On 05/06/2016 09:14 AM, Jakob Bohm wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/05/2016 13:45, Salz, Rich wrote:
>>>
 Consider having the non-U.S. person do the account setup too.
>
> Banks are as scared of US jurisdiction as crypto engineers.
>
 Yeah, we've done that.  Even to the point where one of the team was
 going to get on a plane to fly to the Isle of Mann.

 It's amazingly painful and difficult and so far not productive.

 If folks want to give OpenSSL money, mail a check or cash.

>>> I was thinking of the more simple solution of setting up
>>> the account in the same non-US bank where the team member
>>> does his other business.  Lots of this tends to get easier
>>> when the person is an existing customer and the bank is
>>> nearby.
>>>
>>> Each non-US team member presumably has at least one existing
>>> bank relationship and presumably knowledge and/or easy access
>>> to information on how to set up an independent legal entity
>>> in his/her own country.
>>>
>> Personal bank accounts, yes. But, we don't want to entangle OpenSSL
>> funds with any team members personal finances. Those funds need to be
>> held by an independent OpenSSL legal entity (of which there are already
>> several). Also keep in mind that most of my colleagues are hardcore
>> geeks best suited to wrangling OpenSSL code. I try to handle as many
>> paperwork hassles as possible to free them for that more important
>> activity.
>>
> I was trying to say that retail banks can be very helpful
> when an existing personal account holder wants to set up a
> business account with themselves as a signatory (but not
> owner).  Especially if the legal entity (new or existing)
> is also within their jurisdiction.
>
> Things like checking if the person is who his says he is,
> checking if the initial deposit is from a suspect source
> etc. become much simpler when the bank recognizes the
> person as someone they have worked with for years and the
> initial money source as an account that was the
> correspondent with past checks or other traceable
> transfers to/from that known person (all according to the
> banks own records).
>
> Throw in the prospect of earning transaction fees on an
> associated Merchant account, and motivation can grow
> further.
>
> Enjoy
>
> Jakob
> --
> Jakob Bohm, CIO, Partner, WiseMo A/S.  https://www.wisemo.com
> Transformervej 29, 2860 Søborg, Denmark.  Direct +45 31 13 16 10
> This public discussion message is non-binding and may contain errors.
> WiseMo - Remote Service Management for PCs, Phones and Embedded
>
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>
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Jakob Bohm]

On 06/05/2016 15:26, Steve Marquess wrote:

On 05/06/2016 09:14 AM, Jakob Bohm wrote:

On 06/05/2016 13:45, Salz, Rich wrote:

Consider having the non-U.S. person do the account setup too.

Banks are as scared of US jurisdiction as crypto engineers.

Yeah, we've done that.  Even to the point where one of the team was
going to get on a plane to fly to the Isle of Mann.

It's amazingly painful and difficult and so far not productive.

If folks want to give OpenSSL money, mail a check or cash.

I was thinking of the more simple solution of setting up
the account in the same non-US bank where the team member
does his other business.  Lots of this tends to get easier
when the person is an existing customer and the bank is
nearby.

Each non-US team member presumably has at least one existing
bank relationship and presumably knowledge and/or easy access
to information on how to set up an independent legal entity
in his/her own country.

Personal bank accounts, yes. But, we don't want to entangle OpenSSL
funds with any team members personal finances. Those funds need to be
held by an independent OpenSSL legal entity (of which there are already
several). Also keep in mind that most of my colleagues are hardcore
geeks best suited to wrangling OpenSSL code. I try to handle as many
paperwork hassles as possible to free them for that more important activity.

I was trying to say that retail banks can be very helpful
when an existing personal account holder wants to set up a
business account with themselves as a signatory (but not
owner).  Especially if the legal entity (new or existing)
is also within their jurisdiction.

Things like checking if the person is who his says he is,
checking if the initial deposit is from a suspect source
etc. become much simpler when the bank recognizes the
person as someone they have worked with for years and the
initial money source as an account that was the
correspondent with past checks or other traceable
transfers to/from that known person (all according to the
banks own records).

Throw in the prospect of earning transaction fees on an
associated Merchant account, and motivation can grow
further.

Enjoy

Jakob
--
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Transformervej 29, 2860 Søborg, Denmark.  Direct +45 31 13 16 10
This public discussion message is non-binding and may contain errors.
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Steve Marquess]

On 05/06/2016 09:14 AM, Jakob Bohm wrote:
> On 06/05/2016 13:45, Salz, Rich wrote:
>>> Consider having the non-U.S. person do the account setup too.
>>>
>>> Banks are as scared of US jurisdiction as crypto engineers.
>> Yeah, we've done that.  Even to the point where one of the team was
>> going to get on a plane to fly to the Isle of Mann.
>>
>> It's amazingly painful and difficult and so far not productive.
>>
>> If folks want to give OpenSSL money, mail a check or cash.
> I was thinking of the more simple solution of setting up
> the account in the same non-US bank where the team member
> does his other business.  Lots of this tends to get easier
> when the person is an existing customer and the bank is
> nearby.
> 
> Each non-US team member presumably has at least one existing
> bank relationship and presumably knowledge and/or easy access
> to information on how to set up an independent legal entity
> in his/her own country.

Personal bank accounts, yes. But, we don't want to entangle OpenSSL
funds with any team members personal finances. Those funds need to be
held by an independent OpenSSL legal entity (of which there are already
several). Also keep in mind that most of my colleagues are hardcore
geeks best suited to wrangling OpenSSL code. I try to handle as many
paperwork hassles as possible to free them for that more important activity.

As for setting up "an independent legal entity", we have engaged a
number of (expensive) accountants and attorneys to that end, and along
the way have created two non-U.S. legal entities. The bank account(s)
those entities would need to be of any value have proven to be the
bigger challenge.

The issue is still being actively worked, and I'm sure we'll solve it
eventually. I initially (as someone who has created multiple U.S.
companies) thought it would be as easy as you assume. It's been an
education.

-Steve M.

-- 
Steve Marquess
OpenSSL Software Foundation
20-22 Wenlock Road
London N1 7GU
United Kingdom
+44 1785508015
+1 301 874 2571 direct
marqu...@opensslfoundation.org
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Jakob Bohm]

On 06/05/2016 13:45, Salz, Rich wrote:

Consider having the non-U.S. person do the account setup too.

Banks are as scared of US jurisdiction as crypto engineers.

Yeah, we've done that.  Even to the point where one of the team was going to 
get on a plane to fly to the Isle of Mann.

It's amazingly painful and difficult and so far not productive.

If folks want to give OpenSSL money, mail a check or cash.

I was thinking of the more simple solution of setting up
the account in the same non-US bank where the team member
does his other business.  Lots of this tends to get easier
when the person is an existing customer and the bank is
nearby.

Each non-US team member presumably has at least one existing
bank relationship and presumably knowledge and/or easy access
to information on how to set up an independent legal entity
in his/her own country.

Enjoy

Jakob
--
Jakob Bohm, CIO, Partner, WiseMo A/S.  https://www.wisemo.com
Transformervej 29, 2860 Søborg, Denmark.  Direct +45 31 13 16 10
This public discussion message is non-binding and may contain errors.
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Steve Marquess]

On 05/06/2016 07:45 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:
>> Consider having the non-U.S. person do the account setup too.
>>
>> Banks are as scared of US jurisdiction as crypto engineers.
> 
> Yeah, we've done that.  Even to the point where one of the team was going to 
> get on a plane to fly to the Isle of Mann.
> 
> It's amazingly painful and difficult and so far not productive.
> 
> ...

FATCA means that no "U.S. person" can have any access to the bank
account; we are well and painfully aware of that, and it's not a
problem. Only three of us fall in that category anyway; OpenSSL is not a
U.S. centric organization. Our U.S. connections are only due to the
circumstantial fact that the OpenSSL team member (me) who initially set
up our banking arrangements happened to be American.

-Steve M.

-- 
Steve Marquess
OpenSSL Validation Services, Inc.
1829 Mount Ephraim Road
Adamstown, MD  21710
USA
+1 877 673 6775 s/b
+1 301 874 2571 direct
marqu...@openssl.com
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Salz, Rich]

> Consider having the non-U.S. person do the account setup too.
> 
> Banks are as scared of US jurisdiction as crypto engineers.

Yeah, we've done that.  Even to the point where one of the team was going to 
get on a plane to fly to the Isle of Mann.

It's amazingly painful and difficult and so far not productive.

If folks want to give OpenSSL money, mail a check or cash.
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Jakob Bohm]

On 06/05/2016 12:36, Steve Marquess wrote:

On 05/06/2016 04:40 AM, Michel wrote:

Hi steve,

Isn't it conceivable to ask one of the European payment service provider to
sponsor you by offering a free account / accesss to their plateform ?
I know some which are secured only with the help of your product.
They should be proud to help in return.
:-)

In my role as the OpenSSL beancounter I've run into a more general issue
with non-U.S. banks. The great bulk of our donation funding comes from
outside the U.S. and is spent outside the U.S., and really shouldn't
need to reside in or even transit through the U.S. But, since I'm
American and know that country best that's where I set up the OpenSSL
legal entities and bank accounts years ago.

I've been trying unsuccessfully to transition our funding to a non-U.S.
bank for some time. But, we're an unusual organization (banks don't like
unusual) and I also am operating under a severe handicap known as
"FATCA", the TL;DR of which being that when a bank sees I'm calling from
a U.S. number and speaking with an obvious U.S. accent they can't
dismiss me fast enough, usually before I get the chance to emphasize
that no "U.S. person" needs to have signature authority for the account.
I've been through this drill with dozens of banks, from Estonia to
Singapore. We've gotten as far as opening an account with an initial
deposit, only to have that bank close the account for unspecified
reasons a week later. I've spent an unbelievable amount of time on this.

If there is a non-U.S. bank willing to have OpenSSL as a customer I'd
love to talk to them. We've even created non-U.S. corporate entities (in
IoM and BVI) for that purpose; after many months they remain bankless.



Consider having the non-U.S. person do the account setup too.

Banks are as scared of US jurisdiction as crypto engineers.

Enjoy

Jakob
--
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Transformervej 29, 2860 Søborg, Denmark.  Direct +45 31 13 16 10
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Steve Marquess]

On 05/06/2016 04:40 AM, Michel wrote:
> Hi steve,
> 
> Isn't it conceivable to ask one of the European payment service provider to
> sponsor you by offering a free account / accesss to their plateform ?
> I know some which are secured only with the help of your product.
> They should be proud to help in return.
> :-)

In my role as the OpenSSL beancounter I've run into a more general issue
with non-U.S. banks. The great bulk of our donation funding comes from
outside the U.S. and is spent outside the U.S., and really shouldn't
need to reside in or even transit through the U.S. But, since I'm
American and know that country best that's where I set up the OpenSSL
legal entities and bank accounts years ago.

I've been trying unsuccessfully to transition our funding to a non-U.S.
bank for some time. But, we're an unusual organization (banks don't like
unusual) and I also am operating under a severe handicap known as
"FATCA", the TL;DR of which being that when a bank sees I'm calling from
a U.S. number and speaking with an obvious U.S. accent they can't
dismiss me fast enough, usually before I get the chance to emphasize
that no "U.S. person" needs to have signature authority for the account.
I've been through this drill with dozens of banks, from Estonia to
Singapore. We've gotten as far as opening an account with an initial
deposit, only to have that bank close the account for unspecified
reasons a week later. I've spent an unbelievable amount of time on this.

If there is a non-U.S. bank willing to have OpenSSL as a customer I'd
love to talk to them. We've even created non-U.S. corporate entities (in
IoM and BVI) for that purpose; after many months they remain bankless.

-Steve M.

-- 
Steve Marquess
OpenSSL Software Foundation
20-22 Wenlock Road
London N1 7GU
United Kingdom
+44 1785508015
+1 301 874 2571 direct
marqu...@opensslfoundation.org
ste...@openssl.org
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Michel]

Hi steve,

Isn't it conceivable to ask one of the European payment service provider to
sponsor you by offering a free account / accesss to their plateform ?
I know some which are secured only with the help of your product.
They should be proud to help in return.
:-)
 
-Message d'origine-
De : openssl-users [mailto:openssl-users-boun...@openssl.org] De la part de
Steve Marquess
Envoyé : vendredi 6 mai 2016 01:00
À : openssl-users@openssl.org
Objet : Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

Note we would qualify to have a direct "merchant account" with one of the
major credit card processors, but found out there is a requirement that the
web site on which payments are processed be located in the U.S.
Our servers are all in Europe, appropriately so.



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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Jakob Bohm]

On 06/05/2016 00:59, Steve Marquess wrote:

On 05/05/2016 06:34 PM, Luis Daniel Lucio Quiroz wrote:

What about stripe?

...

I think I may have looked at that before, but I'll revisit it.

Note we would qualify to have a direct "merchant account" with one of
the major credit card processors, but found out there is a requirement
that the web site on which payments are processed be located in the U.S.
Our servers are all in Europe, appropriately so.

There are global payment processors in Europe too, usually
covering only companies/websites in one country.

For example our web sites currently accept payments via a
Merchant account in our home country, set up via a local
dedicated payment front end service known as DIBS, which
does the heavy lifting of being PCI certified, and also
assures our customers that their credit card details are
never shared back to our servers.  Basically, the end
user enters their credit card on their site during the
transaction, and we get the final result as they link back
to our site at the end.  Of note is that while our company
is in the country of the Merchant account and service
provider, our servers are elsewhere entirely.

So it should be possible to find a similar service in the
country where the OpenSSL is legally based, but please
avoid services that make users set up accounts or
otherwise complicate the transaction, such as
"Money Bookers" or PayPal.

Enjoy

Jakob
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Transformervej 29, 2860 Søborg, Denmark.  Direct +45 31 13 16 10
This public discussion message is non-binding and may contain errors.
WiseMo - Remote Service Management for PCs, Phones and Embedded

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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[debbie10t]

On 06/05/16 01:08, Steve Marquess wrote:

On 05/05/2016 07:52 PM, debbie10t wrote:

Hello,

On 05/05/16 21:41, Steve Marquess wrote:

We've had a PayPal account for years, as the most convenient way for
individuals to send small donations. However, as the person who has
managed that account I can attest that PayPal has always been rather
annoying to deal with, and I've finally hit my limit. ...

I do hope an excellent solution can be found.

Apologies in advance for this probably going off topic.

Steve, could you possibly provide any details of how Paypal
caused you to "finally hit your limit" ?
(your blog would be great)

I am sure I am not the only curious person reading this ;)

Well, I don't want to turn this into a PayPal bashing session ... I do
recognize that they have a huge number of customers, that fraud is a
constant problem, and that they need to economize on the human element
in their customer support operations. But briefly put, the last straw in
this case was yet another "your account has been limited" drill where
access to our funds is blocked and we're now required to send in copies
of my passport and social security card, and battle with their tedious
voice response system. This time that initial call took only 28 minutes,
quicker than usual, but I'm tired of never knowing when they will
arbitrarily slam some sort of arbitrary restriction on the account that
takes hours of my time to resolve. I'll still need at least one more
call to close the account ... sigh.

-Steve M.



Steve,
thank you for your clearly honest reply, I too share a hatred of
voice response systems .. i prefer to press a button too ..

  "If i can call the xx digit international number
   i can surely press one or two more .. "

Alternative suggestion to quitting Paypal outright:
  Get somebody you trust to handle Them // "as the most convenient way .. "

* not a paypal stooge .. think a little "out of the box" thinking may 
help :)


Highest regards
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Steve Marquess]

On 05/05/2016 07:52 PM, debbie10t wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On 05/05/16 21:41, Steve Marquess wrote:
>> We've had a PayPal account for years, as the most convenient way for
>> individuals to send small donations. However, as the person who has
>> managed that account I can attest that PayPal has always been rather
>> annoying to deal with, and I've finally hit my limit. ...
> 
> I do hope an excellent solution can be found.
> 
> Apologies in advance for this probably going off topic.
> 
> Steve, could you possibly provide any details of how Paypal
> caused you to "finally hit your limit" ?
> (your blog would be great)
> 
> I am sure I am not the only curious person reading this ;)

Well, I don't want to turn this into a PayPal bashing session ... I do
recognize that they have a huge number of customers, that fraud is a
constant problem, and that they need to economize on the human element
in their customer support operations. But briefly put, the last straw in
this case was yet another "your account has been limited" drill where
access to our funds is blocked and we're now required to send in copies
of my passport and social security card, and battle with their tedious
voice response system. This time that initial call took only 28 minutes,
quicker than usual, but I'm tired of never knowing when they will
arbitrarily slam some sort of arbitrary restriction on the account that
takes hours of my time to resolve. I'll still need at least one more
call to close the account ... sigh.

-Steve M.

-- 
Steve Marquess
OpenSSL Software Foundation
20-22 Wenlock Road
London N1 7GU
United Kingdom
+44 1785508015
+1 301 874 2571 direct
marqu...@opensslfoundation.org
ste...@openssl.org
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[debbie10t]

Hello,

On 05/05/16 21:41, Steve Marquess wrote:

We've had a PayPal account for years, as the most convenient way for
individuals to send small donations. However, as the person who has
managed that account I can attest that PayPal has always been rather
annoying to deal with, and I've finally hit my limit. I'm in the process
of closing that account (something PayPal makes unnecessarily difficult
and protracted). I was able to refund most of the recent donations that
we were unable to recover, leaving a balance of $259.45 that will either
be forfeited to PayPal or (hopefully) refunded by them back to the
original donors.

The PayPal donate link ("button") on our web site has been removed. I've
asked PayPal to block any future inbound transactions while we fight
over the account closure, but can't be confident that was done. Please
do not donate via PayPal to any account claiming to represent us; such
donations won't go to us and may not ever be returned to you.

This closure of the only convenient means of receiving small donations
does not mean that we do not value such donations. Those of you who have
donated via PayPal, many via recurring donations, have our gratitude and
thanks. I regret that there is no clear alternative to switch to instead
(suggestions welcome if there are options I'm unaware of).

-Steve M.



I do hope an excellent solution can be found.

Apologies in advance for this probably going off topic.

Steve, could you possibly provide any details of how Paypal
caused you to "finally hit your limit" ?
(your blog would be great)

I am sure I am not the only curious person reading this ;)

Many Thanks
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Steve Marquess]

On 05/05/2016 06:34 PM, Luis Daniel Lucio Quiroz wrote:
> What about stripe?
> 
> ...

I think I may have looked at that before, but I'll revisit it.

Note we would qualify to have a direct "merchant account" with one of
the major credit card processors, but found out there is a requirement
that the web site on which payments are processed be located in the U.S.
Our servers are all in Europe, appropriately so.

-Steve M.

-- 
Steve Marquess
OpenSSL Software Foundation
20-22 Wenlock Road
London N1 7GU
United Kingdom
+44 1785508015
+1 301 874 2571 direct
marqu...@opensslfoundation.org
ste...@openssl.org
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Re: [openssl-users] good riddance to PayPal

[Luis Daniel Lucio Quiroz]

What about stripe?
Le 5 mai 2016 4:57 PM, "Steve Marquess"  a
écrit :

> We've had a PayPal account for years, as the most convenient way for
> individuals to send small donations. However, as the person who has
> managed that account I can attest that PayPal has always been rather
> annoying to deal with, and I've finally hit my limit. I'm in the process
> of closing that account (something PayPal makes unnecessarily difficult
> and protracted). I was able to refund most of the recent donations that
> we were unable to recover, leaving a balance of $259.45 that will either
> be forfeited to PayPal or (hopefully) refunded by them back to the
> original donors.
>
> The PayPal donate link ("button") on our web site has been removed. I've
> asked PayPal to block any future inbound transactions while we fight
> over the account closure, but can't be confident that was done. Please
> do not donate via PayPal to any account claiming to represent us; such
> donations won't go to us and may not ever be returned to you.
>
> This closure of the only convenient means of receiving small donations
> does not mean that we do not value such donations. Those of you who have
> donated via PayPal, many via recurring donations, have our gratitude and
> thanks. I regret that there is no clear alternative to switch to instead
> (suggestions welcome if there are options I'm unaware of).
>
> -Steve M.
>
> --
> Steve Marquess
> OpenSSL Software Foundation
> 20-22 Wenlock Road
> London N1 7GU
> United Kingdom
> +44 1785508015
> +1 301 874 2571 direct
> marqu...@opensslfoundation.org
> ste...@openssl.org
> --
> openssl-users mailing list
> To unsubscribe: https://mta.openssl.org/mailman/listinfo/openssl-users
>
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