Uni-Loc tripods have been called Benbo done right.
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
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On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:37 PM, Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com wrote:
Darren, I am not certain I grok your rant rightly... Are you ranting about
the copyright notices obscuring your view? Or are you ranting about the fact
that people are clueless about copyright?
All of the above. The
Character-based languages are interesting.
For example, there is a character for roof.
Also a character for woman and pig.
If you put the pig character under the roof character you have the word home.
If you put the woman character under the roof character you have the
word peace.
If you put TWO
I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but it seems to me that
putting filters in front of the lens of a camera with a digital sensor
in it is a bit silly especially for BW purposes. Your sensor is
already filtering the light through three filters to achieve a red
channel, a blue channel, and a
A conversation in another thread brought to my attention a big 'ol
copyright image, designed to be nearly impossible to remove and even
more impossible to miss. Frankly, when I see this sort of behavior, I
see the C to stand for Clueless rather than Copyright.
I would suggest that people who do
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:50 PM, David Parsons parsons.da...@gmail.com wrote:
While you are technically correct, filing a copyright lawsuit is
ridiculously expensive and takes years in court to pursue. And while
you can get statutory damages if you promptly file for registration,
if someone
Well, I can assure you it goes well beyond theory, and that it is
anything but impractical, but I see no benefit to myself in doing
any further convincing on the subject. Closed minds are a powerful
thing. Suffice it to say that this thread is (empirically) the most
financially invaluable (and
Infringers enrich Copyright-smart Photographers. Google Flickr
(along with the rest of the internet) make infringing simple. That's
good for Copyright-smart Photographers. They also make catching
infringers pretty simple, because most of them are clueless. While it
may be counter-intuitive,
...@mindspring.com wrote:
On 2010-11-19 10:21, CheekyGeek wrote:
Perhaps this much Chinese should be taught in all schools?
: )
I think it would be better to teach enough Engrish so that we could actually
communicate with the folks in the customer support call center when
something goes wrong
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
That's pretty much how I work things.
A few weeks ago I attended a seminar on copyright held by the American
Society of Media Photographers (ASMP), so let's clear up a few
misconceptions about copyright that have been
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
CheekyGeek wrote:
there are specific ADDITIONAL penalties that
the infringer puts themself in line for if they (for example) remove
or crop out your copyright notice on their use of the infringed image.
More leverage
rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote:
So tell us how much you've collected and from who... :-)
Regards, Bob S.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 2:26 PM, CheekyGeek cheekyg...@gmail.com wrote:
Well, I can assure you it goes well beyond theory, and that it is
anything but impractical, but I see no benefit
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
I make all my images available under Creative Commons
Attribution/Non-Commercial/No-Derivatives license. Anyone is free to
use them for non-profit purposes. I think this is just an
acknowledgement of the reality you
I like it! Nice title.
Darren Addy
Kearney, Ne
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 4:20 PM, paul stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote:
K-5, DA*60-250, ISO 400, f4 @ 1/1000th, 60mm.
Cropped to about 60% of frame. Could have tightened up a bit, but the moment
would have been gone. Rendered on my
I have been joking about selling a kidney in order to pay for a K-5,
but that may not be necessary. I took a little inventory last night
and what I found surprised me. I've accumulated a fair amount of stuff
in my pursuit of legacy glass for my K200D (and later K-x). A rather
SILLY amount of
Speaking of Barbie, this gives me a good excuse to point out one of
the more BIZARRE Barbie Dolls I have seen yet.
Frankly, I think it is for the birds.
http://tinyurl.com/27x87kh
Darren Addy
Kearney, NE
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The only filters that I feel are necessary/useful in the digital world
are Neutral Density filters (for those times you want longer shutter
speeds at equiv. apertures or gradient NDs) and maybe polarizers.
Other than that, you can do the filter-thing for various BW
enhancements with a
Interestingly, Buy.com has Adorama selling the K-5 body for $1493 + 16
shipping ($1509 total), while the Adorama site itself has it priced at
$1565 with free shipping.
Buy.com currently shows it In Stock and shipping in 1 to 2 business days.
I'm in the process of setting up an old school BW darkroom just
because I miss the process/smells/etc.
The only film I really plan on shooting from this point forward will
be BW that I develop myself.
I'm also interested in exploring alternative processes in the monochrome world.
However, if you
I'd like to try something, and if it goes well perhaps it will provide
a new sort of PDML thread for members to start periodically.
Conversations will, no doubt, evolve like wheel spokes off of a
central topic (hub), but I'd like this threads hub to be National
Geographic photographer Sam Abell. I
On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote:
Remindes me of those 'mostly awful modern art inside.'
The blank canvas doesn't really do anything for me.
Regards, Bob S.
Bob S. took my comment.
As far as fruitful commentary is concerned, before clicking the link I
And the photo credit appears WHERE?
Darren Addy
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On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote:
I think we don't go to enough exoctic locations to have great photos. :-)
Regards, Bob S.
I realize that you are joking here, but I would posit that, for a good
photographer, location or subject matter is never an
If I'm not mistaken, a lot of what Miserere was saying in that article
was with tongue firmly planted in cheek.
Or maybe I just need new batteries in my sarcastometer/ironicalgraph.
Darren Addy
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Well congrats on them choosing your photograph. It is indeed worthy of
appreciation by the wide audience it will receive. But as for the
value of the photo credit and website address nowhere in the proximity
of said photograph, I'd have to say it is near nil. If you have Google
Analytics on your
I must say, I find some of the value judgments made in this thread to
be oddly entertaining and encouraging.
I'm also going to use them as motivation.
: )
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On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Larry Colen l...@red4est.com wrote:
I wondered what kind of whore you were. But, if you're free, you're a slut,
not a whore, you've got to make money to call yourself a pro.
I know dialog and that is particularly harsh.
- When
On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote:
one of the people commented well, anyone can take good photos in a place
like that.
^^^ How to diagnose an abusive personality in one sentence
(or, at a minimum, Severe Social Retardation).
Reminds me of the line Wow your
Of your set, I like this one best:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rf.sullivan/K5Samples#5538679904854969650
Thanks for sharing with the class.
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
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http://www.pixelsmithy.com/absolutely-fireproof
Darren Addy
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Wishing you well, John! The c-word can put a chill through you, but
there has been no better time in history to get treatment for it.
Also, choose a hospital with free wi-fi in the room.
: )
Darren Addy
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I'm still looking for a couple of Adaptall 2 PK/A adapters for my
Tamrons. If anyone has one and is looking to trade for something in
particular, let me know!
I've got duplicates of some lenses (or what I like to call emergency
backups). Clearly my problem is that I never get RID of stuff, but
On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Charles Robinson charl...@visi.com wrote:
On Nov 16, 2010, at 9:52, CheekyGeek wrote:
http://www.pixelsmithy.com/absolutely-fireproof
Swell ghost sign! Did you juice the colors a bit or is/was it really that
VIVID?
This is an in camera jpg, shot with my
On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Steven Desjardins drd1...@gmail.com wrote:
Wow. 29 SLR bodies? EBay and a K5 beckons.
I'll be doing my share of eBaying here shortly, but eBay takes such a
bite that I prefer the Pentax Forums Marketplace, to be honest. Does
anybody know of a good place to hit
Forgot that I have an extra S-M-C Takumar 50mm f1.4. Also think I have
a couple extra Super Takumar 50mm f1.4s and maybe one extra 55mm f1.8
Super Tak.
Another coupla oddballs...
a Spiralite Macrovar (screws onto 49mm filter thread and then gives
variable close-up capability with a twist... down
Oops. Only sent this to Collin. To list...
-- Forwarded message --
From: CheekyGeek cheekyg...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: I think I may have a problem
To: collin.brendemu...@contractor.huntington.com
K Bodies:
Multiple K1000s - one
On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Larry Colen l...@red4est.com wrote:
On Nov 16, 2010, at 7:52 AM, CheekyGeek wrote:
http://www.pixelsmithy.com/absolutely-fireproof
One of the best brick wall shots I've seen yet.
Thanks Larry! (I think)
: )
Darren
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Superb. Reminiscent of pushed Tri-X.
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi ramar...@mac.com wrote:
A new post on my photo blog available for your pleasure:
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com/the-lighting
Comments always appreciated, thanks for
On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Brian Walters supera1...@fastmail.fm wrote:
Oh Please! Don't call the K200D 'old'!
I can't afford to upgrade mine. I really can't
Great shot, by the way. I wonder why the owners felt the need to mention
the building's fire-proofness?
Brian,
I did not
LOL. Silly me.
On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Charles Robinson charl...@visi.com wrote:
On Nov 16, 2010, at 13:45, CheekyGeek wrote:
Couple of Super Takumar 55mm f1.0
I'll take all of these - unless that's a typo.
-Charles
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Minneapolis, MN
http
This concludes this test of the emergency mobile phone post system.
Had this been an actual post, it would have contained photos, opinion,
or something resembling a reasonable facsimile of what passes today
for pseudo-intelligence.
On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 10:36 PM, cagu...@earthlink.net
Perhaps more appropriate posted here?
http://www.mamiya.co.uk/index.php?content=mamiya+users
What you posted is a body, with no lens, and no back.
Not quite sure in what universe this is gaining on a $10K complete system.
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
Needing a little more fiber in his diet...
900mm f3.2
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/66544-home-made-900mm-lens.html
Not exactly made for backpacking now, is it?
: )
Darren Addy
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I'm rather amused to see a discussion on a Leica forum that involves a Pentax!
Darren Addy
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I also wish the focus point was the same. Other than the color
balance/rendition I think the most noticeable difference is in the
fine branches in the middle of the image. Before someone pointed out
the focus point difference, I had assumed that it was highlighting the
K-5's superior resolution at
It's going to seem like a long work day, and I'll be humming the old
Rod Stewart ditty Tonight's the Night but not for the same reason as
he was: A couple of month's ago I found a beautiful Spotmatic with a
S-M-C 50mm f1.4 in original soft case at the thrift store for a song.
When I took the
Assuming that LR defaults were used to process both RAW files, it
would be interesting to see the old color chart photographed by both
cameras. I'm especially curious about the RED response. (Of course, it
must be remembered that the three channels are all monochrome through
different color
I've always been the sort of person that is happy for others' good
fortune, but I apologize to any who instead tend to go to the Dark
Side emotionally. That was not my intent. I will keep the story's end
to myself if it is going to be disturbing to anyone. (Odds are that it
will be some Asanuma or
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 9:22 AM, P N Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote:
My pics were all shot with AWB, and I assume that the difference in tonality
was due to the way the camera handles that.
That's my point. You can shoot and post-process any way that you like
(of course) but if we are
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Daniel J. Matyola danmaty...@gmail.com wrote:
How do they train the birds to do that?
No training necessary. It's fractals at work. If you get far enough
away, all of the galaxies in the universe assume the same shape.
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
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Nothing
Has this been shared with the list yet? EIGHT STOP underexposure -
impressive, to say the least:
http://grumpyjohns.com/index.php?module=articleaction=viewarticle::article::id=182
As the writer says wicked dynamic range. For those who poo-poo Dx0
Mark tests, perhaps this real world example will
...because I'm considering selling a kidney to get one:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/k-5/discuss/72157625170255966/
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
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Cool pic.
Was reading an old Smithsonian mag with an article about a guy in the
SW U.S. that has $30,000 worth of microfilm in his desk with data on
crash sites in the U.S.
He likes to find them (hiking to remote locations, mostly).
The statistic that staggered me was how many aircraft crashes
A must-have if you are an adherent of the Time Zone System .
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
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Norton products are such resource hogs that owners have to CHOOSE
BETWEEN running Norton and actually using another application.
No joke.
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
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Counting the minutes now...
In the same (very) small town where I'm meeting up with the box of
stuff there is a Danish Bakery. On Thursday's it becomes a pizza place
run by a couple of Germans. (Go figure). The pizza is purportedly to
die for and only available on Thurs. nights. So I called to
Well, it wasn't exactly a treasure trove, but very nice for the price (free).
First of all, the pizza is awesome. The word pizza really doesn't do
it justice. It's about 1-1/2 thick and STUFFED with ingredients. This
medium pizza weighs 6 to 8 pounds if it weighs an oz. Unbelievable.
On to the
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 7:45 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
Yep. I'm extremely happy with the Samsung sensor and can easily wait
to upgrade. If I do, it'll be because of the lower minimum ISO of 80
rather than the high ISO settings of the K-5.
OK. Let's look at it on your terms:
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
OK. Let's look at it on your terms:
In a digital camera, I would argue that lower ISOs are *primarily*
important for the maximum Dynamic Range that they provide.
Not to me.
OK. Can you expand on that? What is it about
This is a bit of a ridiculous discussion, if we equate it to film days...
Let's imagine a set of photographers (let's say they shoot for
National Geographic) who swear by Kodachrome 25. If Kodak or a
competitor came out with a film that gave them Results
Indistinguishable from Kodachrome 25 - but
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
OK. Can you expand on that? What is it about lower ISOs that make them
primarily better to you?
Longer shutter speeds.
That's fine. ISO 100 to 80 is less than a 1/2 stop difference (if we
compare the SETTINGS).
If we
Theme suggestions off the top of my head (apologies if any of these
have been used before):
Rush Hour
Life's Simple Pleasures
Big Weather
Underfoot
Packing Heat
A Fork in the Road
The Ravages of Time
Out of this World
The Twilight Zone
Bohemian Rhapsody
Upon closer examination...
Songs in the Key
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
Why does it bother you so much that I like to work the way I like to
work?
I could care less about how you like to work.
However I find your inability to adequately justify your stated
positions in this particular
Sounds about right!
http://shutterfinger.typepad.com/shutterfinger/2010/10/what-your-choice-of-camera-says-about-you.html
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
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Darren Addy
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See also:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nebulagirl/4522787365/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/orphanjones/449153962/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bonniezee/3664033552/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25752...@n04/4864626809/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/backstabbers/218823329/
That K-7 image looks like my old K200D at ISO 1600.
(Which would make it a 2 stop improvement) but still an unfortunate
amount of noise, in my book.
Those who think the K-7 image looks GOOD have to be K-7 owners.
: )
I'd rather see a comparison between the K-x at 6400 and the K5 at 6400
and see
On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 3:53 PM, P N Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote:
Noise is only a small part of it. You also get better exposure control,
weather sealing, better build quality, better write speed, better battery
life and you don't get lumped in with people who buy red cameras:-).
On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 5:55 PM, paul stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote:
But you asked why the flagship models were worth more than the Kx.
**Rereads my post. Finds no such question, probably because I have no
such question.**
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
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On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com wrote:
According to DxO, K-7 has bigger sensor than D7000. The crop factors are
1.52 vs 1.53 respectively...
*Evil grin*
I'm guessing that you are not serious, but isn't the crop factor due
to a *combination* of the sensor size
You don't really need to bring back something that is available in
plentiful numbers. I haven't taken inventory, but I'm pretty sure I
have 4 or 5.
: )
Darren Addy
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Don't forget the Hyper Manual mode.
http://www.ok1000pentax.com/2009/04/pentax-hyper-program-and-hyper-manual.html
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036message=36220193
Shooting with m42 lenses is best on a Pentax, because of Hyper Manual.
Also, you should try to use an old preset
Wouldn't one need to see a before/after Denoise comparison to make a
meaningful comment?
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
(Looking forward to making my first meaningful comment on this list, one day.)
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This photo is a little more than a cheat as a PESO submission.
a) I didn't take it
b) It wasn't taken BY a Pentax.
However it was taken WITH a Pentax in the photo, so I thought it might
be fun to share.
Our family was out for the purpose of taking some group family photos.
This photo was taken as
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Dario Bonazza dario.bona...@virgilio.it wrote:
This is rather interesting to me:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/an_open_letter_to_the_major_camera_manufacturers.shtml
Dario,
Thanks for sharing this link. I learned A LOT of things I didn't know.
I would
I realize this is close to a religious issue, but: preground pods?
imho THIS is coffee: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelsmithy/3910633204/
:P
Darren Addy
(runnin' and duckin' in Kearney, Nebraska)
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On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Steven Desjardins drd1...@gmail.com wrote:
The funny thing would be if they
didn't correct there would no evidence of it in this data but rather
in inconsistent exposure results between lenses.
I guess I should have prefaced my comments as coming from one who
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 10:21 AM, Steven Desjardins drd1...@gmail.com wrote:
What amazing storm shots.
Supercells are the majestic mountains of the Great Plains. (Gee, I
should make bumper stickers of that.)
But unless you are lucky enough to be in one's path you need to
chase them to capture
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Steven Desjardins drd1...@gmail.com wrote:
Why change the iso anyway?
why not just change the Tv?
My guess would be because, out of the three main variables (shutter
speed, aperture, ISO), ISO is the one that people will be most willing
to compromise on.
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Steven Desjardins drd1...@gmail.com wrote:
What pre-ground? All I saw was a cup of the extracted form.
True. He could be simply using an Illy logo cup for some other
brand/method of coffee/espresso brewing with freshly ground beans.
Let's hope so, shall we?
:)
A lovely model. I liked the first one the best (superb), the 2nd one
next, and the third one least (mainly due to the improper white
balance. Compare her teeth in the first and last shot and you'll see
what I mean.)
Darren Addy
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On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Steven Desjardins drd1...@gmail.com wrote:
Our local coffee shop (the Lexington Coffee Shop) is
connected with a local bean roaster (the Lexington Roasting Co.) so I
have long since lost track of the outside world.
The outside world I recommend getting in touch
I have no dog in this fight (apologies to PETA for the expression) but
don't confuse Constitutional Rights with freedom from consequences or
accountability for what one says when exercising such rights.
Darren Addy
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On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Tim Øsleby maritim...@gmail.com wrote:
You Tom, and others may, may
practice the constitution as mush as you like, but please don't take
it for granted here.
Doing so, could be interpreted as, how do I put
this? A bit self centered?
Wait. You mean...
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Jack Davis jdavi...@yahoo.com wrote:
The constitution notwithstanding, let's hear it for servility.
Also civility. They are both foreign concepts (and by foreign, I mean
of another planet).
Darren Addy
Kearney, Ne
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On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 8:23 AM, Nick David Wright
pedalsandpr...@gmail.com wrote:
I know the Canon would be slow. But I'm okay with that.
Seriously?
What you probably mean to say is that you are okay with that until you
hit about your 18th scan of your first 36 exposure roll.
Dust removal
My son-in-law is a photographer with stuff in Getty Images. He's also
a photoshop expert (and Adobe PS beta tester) and has been converting
a lot of his film lately with the Epson V500, which he feels is an
excellent buy. He's a Windows computer - Canon Camera guy, but
otherwise pretty stable.
: )
Nice image and perfect title.
Pentax Zassenhaus: Clearly you are a man of excellent taste.
: )
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
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It's MONOPOLY GUY (2010):
http://tinyurl.com/2fc3s45
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
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I realize that all of the savvy Pentax people on this list already own
a copy, but since I just posted it For Sale on the pentaxforums
marketplace I thought I'd also post it here:
Often sold for much, much more.
The Ultimate Asahi Pentax Screw Mount Guide is a must have for any
serious Pentax
Remind me to comment on your prices whenever I see you offer something
for sale! (No, I'm a better person than that).
Seriously, I've seen it sold for much more. I had to wait a very long
time to find a copy at this price and when it did I snagged it. No
regrets either. The book has made its
Since all the cool kids are doing it, I thought I would start using
the Posterous blog that I set up many moons ago but never used.
It is now my new photo blog.
Hobson responds: I'll alert the media.
http://www.pixelsmithy.com
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
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Nothing is sure, except Death and
Thanks for the feedback, Walter and Larry!
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Larry Colen l...@red4est.com wrote:
TTV is Through The Viewfinder?
That is correct. My muse was Flickr user Valcox:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12786...@n00/
There are some inspirational groups on Flickr for TTV as
No one expects the 200mph parachute!
I'll bet a Takumar would have still been usable afterwards.
: )
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
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My landscape photography would be greatly improved if only I included
some castles or castle ruins. Sadly, they never built any in Nebraska.
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
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I'm in favor of fakes, as long as they're well executed, visually pleasing
fakes.
Are we still talking about photographs or have we moved on to bust enhancement?
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
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If you put a file on a web server it is never safe. Period. Exclamation point.
Add to that: Even if you make it password protected, etc. you have to
share that password somehow with humans. Human beings, being human,
can compromise your best intentions in many ways.
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
Tim, if you want to share pictures between a group of 10 people (which is
the impression I am getting from your initial post) then nothing really
prevents you from inputting all their e-mail addresses to your e-mail client
and establishing an ad-hoc mail list so that you can send these
Is this a K-mount Takumar or a screw mount Takumar?
The K-mount Takumar (of which the 135mm f2.5 is one of the most
common) is considered to be a very poor quality lens, by Pentax
standards... starting with it's lack of SMC coatings. The K-mount
Takumars were consumer grade lenses and not at all
There IS an SMC K mount 135mm f2.5 that is a good and sought after
lens, but is it does NOT say Takumar on it. It simply says SMC
Pentax. If you find that, buy it. It is purportedly the same optical
design as its predecessor, the screw mount 135mm f2.5.
One thing I have learned is that faster
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