Harry Cleaver:
This discussion is but an example of a kind of dialog in which I find
myself from time to time. Those of us on the Left, following to an
uncomfortable degree in old Charles Marks' footsteps, know a great deal
about exploitation and the brutalities of work. We are generally quite
What follows is an absolutely truthful and accurate story!
Names have been changed to protect identities.
I am sitting at a popular coffee-shop in Urbana this morning reading
the latest issue of LinguaFranca and sipping a cup of coffee, when my
ear starts tracking the conversation at a
Speaking of the incarceration of black males in the U.S., I recently came
across a factoid that shocked me, and I thought I was pretty much
un-shockable. Based on present rates of incarceration, a black male child
born in the U.S. today would face a 28% lifetime chance of doing prison
time.
To continue my discussion, I lived in Puerto Rico for three years and
worked as an Analista de Planificacion for the Planning Board of the
government of Puerto Rico. One of my assignments was to develop
methodological approaches (adductive rather than a priori) for
qualitatively and
BLS DAILY REPORT, TUESDAY, AUGUST 12, 1997
RELEASED TODAY: Preliminary seasonally adjusted annual rates of
productivity change in the second quarter were: 0.7 percent in the
business sector and 0.6 percent in the nonfarm business sector. In both
the business and nonfarm business sectors,
Harry,
Since you assert that my assertions about the nature and effects of
prostitution are mere a priori assertions, please answer the
following: 1) How many prostitutes have you personally spoken with at
length about these issues? 2) How many prostitutes has your graduate
student spoken
Response (Jim C) I have a suggestion for all those males online--and
any females--who think that prostitution is just like any other job:
Try it for yourself. Try having a stranger's penis in you wherever he
wants it. Try going out with some freak in a car not knowing whether
or not you're
On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, James Michael Craven wrote:
I
did not find these women and men seeing themselves as "self-
valorizing" themselves or practicing a form of "self-determination"
or "empowered" in any meaningful way. Sure some would mock the tricks
and take delite in getting over on them
On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, James Michael Craven wrote:
Harry,
Since you assert that my assertions about the nature and effects of
prostitution are mere a priori assertions, please answer the
following: 1) How many prostitutes have you personally spoken with at
length about these issues? 2)
On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Wojtek Sokolowski wrote:
To summarize: I am not arguing that there is no exploitation of women doing
sex work -- there is plenty, especially of the non-white workers. But that
does not mean that sex work work should be abolished (as they did in Cuba or
China which --
UPS strikers from Teamsters Locals 315 and 70 will walk the streets of
downtown Berkeley and the U.C. campus on Friday, August 15, to explain the
isssues in the strike. Community supporters are welcome to join them. Meet
at Berkeley BART station, Center Shattuck, at noon. Call Roger at 548-5020
Dear Pen-L'rs,
Karl Carlisle, with whom I've had absolutely no previous email contact,
wrote me today and ask that the list be informed that he has been removed
again for sending a long post on the prostitution thread. He asked me to
post the whole thing to the list, but instead I will simply
Sorry about bringing up the subject again. Our friend was asked to leave
the list. I removed him. He then signed up under an assumed name.
When he posted to the list again, I removed his name -- not because of
anything he wrote on this round, but because of requests stemming from
past
On Thu, August 14, 1997 at 10:09:20 (-0700) Harry M. Cleaver writes:
2. In fact, if we take the petty bourgeois morality out of the picture,
prostitution is work just as any other work, except that a prostitute owns
the means of production, and under most circumstances she is paid for the
A tip of the hat to Michael Perelman. What a great moderator. Unobtrusive
except when action is called for. And earlier when he said that the thread
on prostitution was "repetitious", that's all I needed to hear. Done.
Louis P.
On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Michael Perelman wrote:
Sorry about
Harry M. Cleaver wrote:
Historically it its. Marx used the term to talk about capital's own
expansion, the way it "valorized" itself quantitatively. Negri took the
term, obscure as it was, and turned it inside out applying it to working
class subjectivity. Instead of capital valorizing itself,
Dear Pen-L'rs,
Karl Carlisle, with whom I've had absolutely no previous email contact,
wrote me today and ask that the list be informed that he has been removed
again for sending a long post on the prostitution thread. He asked me to
post the whole thing to the list, but instead I will
This was posted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is not clear how much is
fictionalized and how much is based on actual people and events.
---
From: Richard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The grayed skies were in constant
Michael, Thanks for all the information you're pouring into
cyberspace! I thought you might find the following of interest. A
question was posted to Noam Chomsky on Znet (www.lbbs.org) and he
passed it on to Elaine Bernard whose answer is below.
The Teamster UPS strike is without question
Are we getting a bit repetitive here?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 916-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This discussion on prostitution brought back a flashback. Years ago I
was driving a Taxi and it was about 3 am in the morning in Seattle
and I was coming back after dropping someone off in an area (14th and
Yesler for those who know Seattle) that is occupied mostly by poor
African-Americans.
On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Louis Proyect wrote:
So I guess this autonomic Marxism is something I have to learn more about.
My only reaction to Harry's post is that anything that coincides with the
thinking of the dreadful Karl Carlile must be re-examined. But what do I know.
Louis: Although Franco
On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, James Michael Craven wrote:
Response (Jim C): I agree with your notion that there are many forms
and levels of prostitution and indeed many forms and levels of
brutality and degradation under capitalism. But another way of
interpreting your comments above--about sex
At the time of liberation in China in 1949 there were over 100,000
child (under 14 years old) "prostitutes" in Shanghai alone. And those
nasty "petit-bourgeois" and "patriarchical" fighters, who had seen
and suffered so much, just couldn't get it. They just couldn't see
how these children
At 10:29 AM 8/14/97 -0700, Max forwarded a message from Per Gunnar Berglund
saying:
Many thanks for an extremely interesting post. I am stunned and
flattered by your interest and knowledge about Swedish detail, including the
names of a couple of the worst crooks behind our disaster.
etc.
Jim C:
On the pain of repeating of what has already been said in this discussion:
Work conditions vary enormously in the sex industry. Without denying the
validity of your Puerto Rico observations, the conditions you describe are
general working conditons in underdeveloped countries, rather
BLS DAILY REPORT, WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 13, 1997
RELEASED TODAY: The Producer Price Index for Finished Goods decreased
0.1 percent in July, seasonally adjusted. This followed drops of 0.1
percent in June and 0.3 percent in May and is the seventh consecutive
monthly decline in the index. Prices
I know all you red-hots will love this post from PKT,
so I am forwarding it.
Max
---
Forwarded Message Follows ---Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997
19:23:45 +0200 Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: "Per Gunnar Berglund" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:POST-KEYNESIAN
Some time ago you posted an interesting quotation from:
Hayek, "Science and Socialism." in Knowledge, Evolution, and Society
(1983).
That book is missing from the U.C. Berkeley library. Was the article
published elsehwere?
Thanks.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Wojtek Sokolowski wrote:
A comment on the issue whether women forced into prostitution have some choice.
1. The fact of depriving a person some choices, even those deemed important
in our society, does not meet depriving that person of all choices. A
prostitute may
Louis Proyect wrote:
So I guess this autonomic Marxism is something I have to learn more about.
My only reaction to Harry's post is that anything that coincides with the
thinking of the dreadful Karl Carlile must be re-examined. But what do I know.
Lou, and anyone else too - check out Harry
The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition -- August 13, 1997
For UPS, Union-Run Pensions
Pose Issues of Liability, Control
By LAURA JERESKI
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
United Parcel Service of America Inc. has made pension funds a central issue
in its labor dispute with
On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, James Michael Craven wrote:Harry,
Thanks for the response. On one level I can see what you are arguing
and why. Yes, I too have known prostitutes who have told me directly
that yes, they know well the probable costs (risk of AIDs and STDs,
beatings by
The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition -- August 14, 1997
Polls Show UPS Strikers
Have Wide Public Support
By CHRISTINA DUFF
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
RICHMOND, Va. -- A real-estate agent with a fondness for Oliver North
and school-prayer bumper stickers, Renee
/** labr.global: 283.0 **/
** Topic: S.A. Cosatu Threatens Split With Mandela ANC **
** Written 9:49 PM Aug 11, 1997 by labornews in cdp:labr.global **
From: Institute for Global Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: S.A. Cosatu Threatens Split With Mandela ANC
Mandela may lose union
On 14 August 1997 Louis Proyect wrote:
I wonder if this is evidence of "autonomic Marxism". There was a conference
in Madrid recently that brought together Zapatista supporters, anarchists,
squatters, autonomic Marxists, etc. This piqued my curiousity and I checked
out the auto-op-sys Web
Rudy Fichtenbaum wrote: "I wonder if the continuing increase in the
incarceration of black males could account for a significant part of the
declining employment to population ratio."
Thanks for the comment. The employment rate is a measure of the share of
the noninstitutionalized
A KARL CARLILE POSTING:
KARL: Hi Rakesh! You reply was appreciated.
RAKESH: That is, how women who sold sexual favours came to be seen, in
Carole Pateman's words, as a special class of women, isolated from
other workers or working class communities, how there came to be a
specialized
In a message dated 97-08-13 12:43:21 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Susan Feiner)
writes:
Subj: Re: Fwd: Send strike support messages to UPS e-mail (fwd)
Date: 97-08-13 12:43:21 EDT
From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Susan Feiner)
Sender:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 7
39 matches
Mail list logo
