On Thursday, July 11, 2002 at 03:25:48 (+) Justin Schwartz writes:
[I wrote:]
Funny that you should define democracy by looking so far backward.
During de Tocqueville's time, the US hardly merited the term
democracy; nor do the flaws of today's political system deserve to
be dumped at the
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 05:26:11 -0600 (MDT)
From: Wuta International [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Elections for delegates to the island's Parliament
Status:
Elections for delegates to the island's Parliament
Havana, July 10 (RHC)-- Cuban President Fidel Castro has called for
Elections for delegates to the island's Parliament
Havana, July 10 (RHC)-- Cuban President Fidel Castro has called for
municipal, provincial and national elections for delegates to the
island's Parliament -- also known as the National Assembly of People's
Power.
The elections are scheduled to
Title: the state and democracy
[was: RE: [PEN-L:27870] Re: Re: variety in capitalist markets]
I wrote:What I'm saying is that
1. given the fact that we live in an interdependent world, in
which my actions affect others and vice-versa, often independent
of what the other wants, we are stuck
Frontline
Volume 19 - Issue 14, July 06 - 19, 2002
ESSAY
At the mouth of a volcano
The Philippines as the next target in the 'war against terrorism'.
AIJAZ AHMAD
In this article, Professor Aijaz Ahmad first deals with the flimsiness of
U.S. claims with regard to its moves in the Philippines,
people should realize that Arrow's theory is a critique of _all_ collective
decision-making mechanisms, not just democracy. It also applies to markets.
Can you think of a method of collective choice that isn't subject to the
theorem?
Um, how so? The theorem says you can't have:
In all fairness the same anomymity is possible under planning. Sensible
proposals for planning generally do NOT abolish money (though they may call
it something else). Yes, I know you have been arguing with people who do
think money could be abolished; but this is rather as though I argued
Title: the state and democracy
Well here's one solution:
http://www.nandotimes.com/opinions/story/460746p-3687821c.html
from United Press
International (n.b. owned by
the moonies)
SAN FRANCISCO (July 9,
2002 2:38 p.m. EDT) -
Is that why you blatantly distort what I wrote?
And why do you paint me as an enemy of democracy? Do you think I actually
disagree with any of the things you said about democratic advances?
I did not write
anything resembling what you put forth. I did not say things are
great with our
During the era of the overthrow of Soviet power or rather public property relations in the USSR industrial infrastructure, I became a market socialist for about 86 hours. At that time I imagined to have discovered a hidden truth in Polany's "Great Transformation." Later it became obvious that the
Justin Schwartz wrote:
American democracy in particular is remarkably narrow and
close-minded. Toqueville said that he knew of no other country where
there was so little freedom of thought. I don't think that has
changed much, despite the progress. Consider: the drug war, the
punitive nature
Jutsin Shwartz:
Well, I've been arguing with folks hereabouts. Ia gree that some anonmytity
is possible under planning. However there is little under, for example, the
Albert-Hahnel and Devine models, both of which require the consumer to
justify her choices to the world. Still, it's good to
So, markets promote diversity and protect minority tastes.
Actually, you are reading the variety conversation into this one. I said
the markets protect _privacy_ but not requiring individuals to justify their
choices to the public at large,
But this
most market-besotted society of any on
below are several posts i sent to another list a few
years ago during 'market/planning' discussion...
1.
Soviet central planning generally eliminated
long-term secular unemployment and short-term
cyclical unemployment associated with capitalist
business cycles from the 1920 onwards. While
http://news.ft.com/home/us
SEC opens Bristol-Myers investigation
By Adrian Michaels in New York
Published: July 11 2002 5:00 | Last Updated: July 11 2002 5:00
US regulators are investigating whether Bristol-Myers Squibb, one of the
world's largest pharmaceuticals companies, inflated its
Not only are you posting all out of proportion to the daily per capita on
pen-l, your posts are filled with misspellings. This suggests to me that
you are dashing things off rather than giving questions the attention they
deserve. This appears to be a misuse of electronic communications. I would
Title: RE: [PEN-L:27891] Re: Re: markets profit maximization
someone said: In all fairness the same anomymity is possible under planning. Sensible proposals for planning generally do NOT abolish money (though they may call it something else). Yes, I know you have been arguing with people who
Justin Schwartz wrote:
Whar's got into you, Doug, you think I have come around to
supporting the domiannce of money and that I would deny that it
narrow the political and cultural sphere?
I'm trying to see how you relate economic organization to politics
and culture. You write as if markets
Title: RE: [PEN-L:27894] Re: Re: Re: Re: markets profit maximization
Doug writes: Bourdieu's argument that competition promotes not variety but sameness - he applied it to the media, but it works elsewhere too - has no relevance?
I don't know Bourdieu's argument, but it's pretty clear that
At 08:46 AM 7/11/2002 -0700, you wrote:
I don't know Bourdieu's argument, but it's pretty clear that
competition encourages sameness.
NY Times, July 11, 2002
With By-the-Numbers Radio, Requests Are a Dying Breed
By LAURA M. HOLSON
LOS ANGELES, July 10 Few executives better reflect
Justin Schwartz wrote:
Well, I've been arguing with folks hereabouts. Ia gree that some
anonmytity is possible under planning. However there is little under,
for example, the Albert-Hahnel and Devine models, both of which require
the consumer to justify her choices to the world.
Title: RE: [PEN-L:27898] Planning, Market Unemployment
Michael Hoover writes:
Soviet central planning generally eliminated
long-term secular unemployment and short-term
cyclical unemployment associated with capitalist
business cycles from the 1920 onwards. While
elimination of mass
I've tried to put an end to the discussion because it seems to be Justin
repeating his arguments for the market socialism. He tells me that he
believes that they are vital for the left. I don't see much evidence
that many people here agree with him.
My problem is that I do not see anything
Title: RE: [PEN-L:27895] Market socialism as a form of utopianism
Utopianism will always play a role in the socialist movement, because people need to have some idea of what they're fighting _for_, not just what they're fighting against. If people don't have some vision of a rational and
Title: RE: [PEN-L:27890] Re: the state and democracy
SAN FRANCISCO (July 9, 2002 2:38 p.m. EDT) - According to a recent newspaper story, a person will soon be able to spend his whole life in the Rev. Jerry Falwell's planned Christian community in Lynchburg, Va. Think of it as eternity right
Justin Schwartz wrote:
people should realize that Arrow's theory is a critique of _all_
collective
decision-making mechanisms, not just democracy. It also applies to
markets.
Can you think of a method of collective choice that isn't subject to the
theorem?
Um, how so? The
Still, it's good to see someone acknowledge that the democractization of
choice is not an unqualified good...
Democratization of choice is not an unqualified good, as I've said again
and again: it's a necessity, given the interdependence of human life (or
what economists call externalities).
How to turn an election into an exercise in mindlessness
Let's look at the the upcoming Cuban elections. I am relying on the information
about the elections given in a recent adoring post about them [PEN-L 27886], which in
turn utilizes statements by other supporters of
Sugn me off, Michael, I don't care to be part of your list under these
conditions. jks
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:27905] Repitition and Market Socialism
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:22:13 -0700
I've tried to put an
From: Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Utopianism will always play a role in the socialist movement, because
people
need to have some idea of what they're fighting _for_, not just what
they're
fighting against.
Absolutely. And if the devil can quote scripture to suit his purpose, I too
as a
Title: RE: [PEN-L:27910] markets profit maximization
Justin said:Still, it's good to see someone acknowledge that the democractization of choice is not an unqualified good...
I said: Democratization of choice is not an unqualified good, as I've said again and again: it's a necessity, given
Title: RE: [PEN-L:27889] Re: the state and democracy
Gar gave a good summary of Arrow's possibility theorem (which cannot be reduced to Condorcet's voter paradox and doesn't just apply to voting as defined narrowly). In addition, here's a short summary of its implications (from
I'm sorry Jim, Michael says I may not talk about this stuff any more. He
just wants to hear about the current crisis. At least from me, because
unlike everyone else here I merely repeat myself and have nothing new to say
about matrkets, planning, democracy, ethics, or most of things that I
From: Carl Remick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I too as a devotely irreligious person can cite the bible ...
Er, make that devoutly. Normally I don't follow up on spelling errors, but
since Louis Proyect seems to be setting a new, higher standard on this
score, I figured I should be punctilious in this
Absolutely. And if the devil can quote scripture to suit his purpose, I too
as a devotely irreligious person can cite the bible's memorable comment on
this topic: Where there is no vision, the people perish. (Proverbs 29:18)
Utopian visions can catalyze thought and action. They are not to
Title: FW: Who Wants This War?
on the issue of war and peace, the United States is no longer a democracy.
from SLATE, by Michael Kinsley:
It was amazing to read the Pentagon's detailed plans for an invasion of Iraq in the New York Times last week. The general reaction of Americans to
Here's my suggestion for Justin. Let's stipulate that everything you said so
far is true. Do you have anything to add -- something that you
have not already said? If not, the discussion is finished. If you have
something new to add, let's hear it.
This is pathetic, Michael. Having been on
Title: RE: [PEN-L:27920] Re: Repitition and Market Socialism
I agree with Christian. I do not see any reason to restrict Justin's contributions, except to encourage him to be more accurate in representing the opinions of others. I think the main job of the moderator is not to restrict the
At 11:51 AM 07/11/2002 +1000, Thiago wrote:
The idea is that whilst the commodity form alienates the worker from the his/
her labour - his/her labour confronts him/her as something non-human,
objective - precisely the opposite happens with a gift. In a gift economy
objects are anthropomorphized.
At 03:35 AM 07/11/2002 +, Justin wrote:
I have not participated in this discussion. But I violently object to
Michael shutting down a discussion of a topic that a great many people on
the list are interested in, but that he, for some reason, has an allergy
too. There are a zillion topics
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In the first instance, with Morris, you are dealing with a genre of
literature, namely the utopian novel. ... In the case of Hahnel-Albert, you
are confronted with *utopianism*, a form of political advocacy that seeks
ideal solutions to problems that had
Well, yeah, if everyone is interested in continuing this discussion,
fine. I have not gotten much from it myself. The problem for me is that
the discussion has remained extremely abstract and has not done much
other than reinforce the prejudices people had when they started the
I don't think it is ahistorical to deal with the limits of the
possible. Most utopian socialists today are activists. And in fact, I
doubt that in the immediate issues, what we are fighting for today
Albert and Hahel, Justin, and Michael Perlman would find much to
disagree about. But if you
Re: the imperialism discussion of a few days ago, i was wondering if the list had any comments about my question about the lenin-luxemburg disagreement about the nature of imperialism. I recently studied up on this disagreement. as far as i could make out, while lenin believes that imperialism is
Gar wrote:
I don't think it is ahistorical to deal with the limits of the
possible. Most utopian socialists today are activists.
I am sorry, Gar. This is not a question of activist credibility. This is
not why I object to Looking Forward. It is about how socialism can be
achieved. I believe
I am sorry, Gar. This is not a question of activist credibility. This is
not why I object to Looking Forward. It is about how socialism can be
achieved. I believe that it miseducates people to write elaborate models.
Marxists focus on strategies for revolution, not how future
From: Carl Remick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ralph Waldo Emerson, ... criticizing the utopianism of Charles Fourier,
said in part ...
Michael Perelman asked offlist about the source of that quote. It's from
Emerson's essay Fourierism and the Socialists -- text at
Gar:
If it is the only thing maybe. But as part of a broader program of
activism, how does it miseducate?
It tries to makes a connection between our ideas and what happened in
history. Against the managerialism of Lenin, Albert-Hahnel propose
participatory economics. Russia did not end up with
I agree with Justin that it's a bit of a stretch to think of the market
as a mechanism for aggregating individual preferences into a social
preference ordering. It's more appropriate to think of the market as a
mechanism of social *choice*, i.e. as something that selects *particular*
Was: variety of something or other...
Consumer advisory: no repetitions of earlier arguments are advanced in the
following post.
Where I wrote:
They do? So if Joanna were the median voter on the Pepsi vs. Coke
question, that would be all right with you?
Jim responds
democracy is more
Melving Wrote:
The configuration of this commodity hunger was shaped and
accelerated as an aspect of the proletarianization of the world masses
(in history) and in particular after World War I with the mechanization
of agriculture - that is the destruction of the private producer or small
scale
Title: I can't resist...
I wrote: There are people who can embrace socialism without having any hope,...
and most of them are on pen-l!
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
There has been much coverage of the stock exchange crisis. Much of it has
had little to offer by way of highlighting both the nature of the stock
exchange and capitalist relations itself.
The bourgeois media have been at pains in holding what they call reckless
and dishonest company
At 01:54 PM 07/11/2002 -0700, Jim wrote:
I wrote: There are people who
can embrace socialism without having any hope,...
and most of them are on pen-l!
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
Nec spes; nec metu! (Neither hope nor fear!motto of the house of
At 11:54 AM 07/11/2002 -0700, Gar wrote:
The worse the better eh? Both from personal experience, and from my
reading of history people are mostly likely to engage in either radical or
revolutionary activity when they have hope - when they believe things can
be better. I think you can find more
At 04:55 PM 07/11/2002 +, Carl wrote:
Absolutely. And if the devil can quote scripture to suit his purpose, I
too as a devotely irreligious person can cite the bible's memorable
comment on this topic: Where there is no vision, the people perish.
(Proverbs 29:18) Utopian visions can
To take an example, I think Pete Seeger's songs had much greater influence
on working class consciousness...than any utopian novel.
I'm spacing...I meant Woodie Guthrie.
Joanna
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:34:33 -
From: portsidemod [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: We Pay for National Health Insurance but Don't Get It
We Pay for National Health Insurance but Don't Get It
Press Release
July 8, 2002
Contacts: David Himmelstein, M.D. Steffie
Woolhandler,
joanna bujes wrote:
To take an example, I think Pete Seeger's songs had much greater
influence on working class consciousness...than any utopian novel.
Really? I thought it was middle-class beatniks, hippies, and Commies
who listen to that stuff, while the working class was/is listening to
nancy brumback wrote:
Re: the imperialism discussion of a few days ago, i was wondering if the
list had any comments about my question about the lenin-luxemburg
disagreement about the nature of imperialism. I recently studied up on this
disagreement. as far as i could make out, while lenin
The Times of India
SUNDAY, JULY 07, 2002
More effort needed to combat drug trade in Vietnam
AFP
HANOI: A senior Vietnamese anti-narcotics official has admitted that much
remains to be done to combat the growth in drug trafficking and substance
abuse in the country.
Colonel Vu Hung Vuong,
From Times on Line
July 11, 2002
West sees glittering prizes ahead in giant oilfields
By Michael Theodoulou in Nicosia and Roland Watson
THE removal of President Saddam Hussein would open Iraqs rich new oilfields
to Western bidders and bring the prospect of lessening dependence on Saudi
oil.
At 11/07/02 14:32 -0400, Nancy Brumback wrote:
Re: the imperialism
discussion of a few days ago, i was wondering if the list had any
comments about my question about the lenin-luxemburg disagreement about
the nature of imperialism. I recently studied up on this disagreement. as
far as i could
Within the camp of those who admire Against Capitalism I had really
wanted to argue for the possibility of looking at it again from the
perspective of the Marxian Law of Value, which he does not do but which I
think is possible. However I found myself in the camp of those who support
the
Within the camp of those who admire Against Capitalism I had really
wanted to argue for the possibility of looking at it again from the
perspective of the Marxian Law of Value, which he does not do
Actually he does. He has written a defense of the LTV in the WAre and
Nielsen collection
Chris Burford :
The Leninist position is arguably that imperialism must be actively
defeated politically and that may involve various class alliances,
compromises, and stages on the way. Luxemburg anticipated in her own words
the rebellion of the international proletariat against the domination
On 12/7/2002 3:43 AM, joanna bujes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
1) nobody cares if we're even (there's the underlying
sense that as there is mutual good will...all will even out in the end.
Gift exchanging people are often very, very, very, very keen to know if they
are even or not. Probably the
From: joanna bujes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
At 04:55 PM 07/11/2002 +, Carl wrote:
Absolutely. And if the devil can quote scripture to suit his purpose, I
too as a devotely irreligious person can cite the bible's memorable
comment on this topic: Where there is no vision, the people perish.
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Carl Remick wrote:
Ralph Waldo Emerson, ... criticizing the utopianism of Charles Fourier,
said in part ...
While we're putting down Utopians, this reminds me of one of my favorite
Keynes quotes, about Bertrand Russell:
Bertie in particular sustained simultaneously a
the state and democracy
- Original Message -
From: Devine, James
I think that democracy (majority rule with minority rights) is the
best way to deal with heterogeneity. Can you think of a better
way, since we can't figure out how to allow each individual and
group to be totally
I would agree with Jim. While Michael may feel that the issue has
been debated sufficiently, I am somewhat disturbed by the
superficial analysis of market socialism that passes for critical
thought on this list. As someone who has worked for the past 15
years in Jugoslavia and, most
Just a couple of thoughts.
Akerlof and Yellen have a gift-exchange model of efficiency wages
(Was this one of the ideas he got the pseudo Nobel for?) which is
very useful in the institutional analysis of labour markets.
What interests me more is the idea (from Polanyi) of 'generalized
joanna bujes wrote:
To take an example, I think Pete Seeger's songs had much greater
influence on working class consciousness...than any utopian novel.
I'm spacing...I meant Woodie Guthrie.
Joanna
Nmm, well regardless of what folk music represents today, there was a
time
I think there is more advanced argument to be made against market
socialism. If Justin has not been exiled from the list I would like a
chance to make it in argument against the market socialists.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would agree with Jim. While Michael may feel that the issue has
74 matches
Mail list logo
