On 25/10/23 2:32 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
Error correcting memory, redundant systems, and human
monitoring, plus the ability to rewrite the guidance software on the
fly if they needed to.
Although the latter couldn't actually be done with the AGC,
as the software was in ROM. They could poke
Passin via Python-list
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 6:50 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Question(s)
On 10/26/2023 6:36 PM, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote:
I am not one for IDLE worship, Tenor. But if you have been getting a
message here, it is that there are an amazing number
: Thursday, October 26, 2023 6:50 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Question(s)
On 10/26/2023 6:36 PM, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote:
> I am not one for IDLE worship, Tenor. But if you have been getting a
message here, it is that there are an amazing number of programs that
support your
On 10/26/2023 6:36 PM, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote:
I am not one for IDLE worship, Tenor. But if you have been getting a message
here, it is that there are an amazing number of programs that support your use
of python during the development phase and perhaps later. I actually often use
an
on.
-Original Message-
From: Python-list On
Behalf Of o1bigtenor via Python-list
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 8:34 AM
To: Michael Torrie
Cc: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Question(s)
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 10:19 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list
wrote:
>
> On 10/25/23
On 2023-10-26, o1bigtenor wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 10:19 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list
> wrote:
>>
>> On 10/25/23 05:51, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
>> > Looks like I have another area to investigate. (grin!)
>> > Any suggestions?
>>
>> Seems to me you're trying to run before you
On 10/26/2023 4:25 PM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:43 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list
wrote:
On 10/26/23 06:34, o1bigtenor wrote:
Interesting - - - - ". . . see if it runs." - - - that's the issue!
When the code is accessing sensors there isn't an easy way
On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:47 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list
wrote:
>
> On 10/26/23 10:41, Michael Torrie wrote:
> > By the way you definitely can step
> > through MicroPython code one line at a time with a remote debugger, say
> > with Visual Studio Code.
>
> I meant to edit that bit out.
hon it Idle may not work with it.
>
> You keep dropping little details that, had you included them in the
> first post, would have helped avoid a lot of answers that ultimately
> aren't going to be useful to you. Are you working MicroPython or with
> regular Python on a PC? That
On 10/26/23 10:41, Michael Torrie wrote:
> By the way you definitely can step
> through MicroPython code one line at a time with a remote debugger, say
> with Visual Studio Code.
I meant to edit that bit out. After doing a bit more research, it
appears remote debugging with MicroPython may not
On 10/26/23 06:34, o1bigtenor wrote:
> Interesting - - - - ". . . see if it runs." - - - that's the issue!
> When the code is accessing sensors there isn't an easy way to
> check that the code is working until one has done the all of the
> physical construction. If I'm trying to control a
On 10/26/2023 7:50 AM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 9:10 AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 08:29 -0500:
...
It would appear that something has changed.
Went to the Eclipse download page, downloaded and verified (using sha-512).
Expanded
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 3:56 PM Jim Schwartz wrote:
> Does this link help? It seems to have a Linux package here.
>
> Eclipse Packages | The Eclipse Foundation - home to a global community,
> the Eclipse IDE, Jakarta EE and over 350 open source projects...
>
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 11:58 AM Michael F. Stemper via Python-list
wrote:
>
> On 25/10/2023 05.45, o1bigtenor wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 8:35 PM Chris Angelico via Python-list
> > wrote:
>
> >> 3. Catch the failure before you commit and push. Unit tests are great for
> >> this.
> >
> >
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 10:19 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list
wrote:
>
> On 10/25/23 05:51, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> > Looks like I have another area to investigate. (grin!)
> > Any suggestions?
>
> Seems to me you're trying to run before you have learned to walk.
>
> Slow down, go
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 9:10 AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
>
> o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 08:29 -0500:
> > ...
> >It would appear that something has changed.
> >
> >Went to the Eclipse download page, downloaded and verified (using sha-512).
> >Expanded software to # opt .
> >There is absolutely NO
Subject: Re: Question(s)
On 24/10/2023 18.15, o1bigtenor wrote:
> What is interesting about this is the absolute certainty that it is impossible
> to program so that that program is provably correct.
Not entirely true. If I was to write a program to calculate Fibonacci
numbers, or ech
Does this link help? It seems to have a Linux package here.
[1]Eclipse Packages | The
Eclipse Foundation - home to
a global community, the
Eclipse IDE, Jakarta EE and [2]favicon.ico
over 350 open source
projects...
eclipse.org
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 25,
On 2023-10-25, o1bigtenor wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:00 AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
>> [...]
>> There are several others,
>> e.g. "ECLIPSE" can be used for Python development.
>
> Is 'Eclipse' a Windows oriented IDE?
> (Having a hard time finding linux related information on the
> website.)
On 10/25/2023 9:20 AM, Michael F. Stemper via Python-list wrote:
On 24/10/2023 17.50, Thomas Passin wrote:
The programming team for the Apollo moon mission developed a system
which,> if you would write your requirements in a certain way, could
generate correct
C code for them.
Since the
On 10/25/2023 8:50 AM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:00 AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 06:44 -0500:
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24?AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
...
There are different kinds of errors.
Some can be avoided by using an
On 25/10/2023 12:44, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> Haven't heard of a python IDE - - - doesn't mean that there isn't such - -
There are literally dozens with varying degrees of smartness.
The big 4 all have Python plugins/environments:
Eclipse, Netbeans, VisualStudio, IntelliJ
And of
On 25/10/2023 05.45, o1bigtenor wrote:
On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 8:35 PM Chris Angelico via Python-list
wrote:
3. Catch the failure before you commit and push. Unit tests are great for this.
Where might I find such please.
You don't "find" unit tests; you write them. A unit test tests
a
ubject: Re: Question(s)
On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 9:36 PM AVI GROSS via Python-list
wrote:
>
> Agreed, Chris. There are many methods way better than the sort of RAID
> architecture I supplied as AN EXAMPLE easy to understand. But even so, if a
> hard disk or memory chip is fried or a nuclear bomb
On 10/25/23 05:51, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> Looks like I have another area to investigate. (grin!)
> Any suggestions?
Seems to me you're trying to run before you have learned to walk.
Slow down, go to the beginning and just learn python, write some code,
see if it runs. Go through
On 24/10/2023 18.15, o1bigtenor wrote:
What is interesting about this is the absolute certainty that it is impossible
to program so that that program is provably correct.
Not entirely true. If I was to write a program to calculate Fibonacci
numbers, or echo back user input, that program
On 24/10/2023 17.50, Thomas Passin wrote:
The programming team for the Apollo moon mission developed a system which,>
if you would write your requirements in a certain way, could generate correct
C code for them.
Since the last Apollo mission was in 1972, when C was first being developed,
On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 5:28 PM Rob Cliffe wrote:
>>
>> There is no general way to prove that a program is "correct". Or even
>> whether it will terminate or loop endlessly.
>> [...]
>> When you come to run your program "for real", and you have to
>>
o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 08:29 -0500:
> ...
>It would appear that something has changed.
>
>Went to the Eclipse download page, downloaded and verified (using sha-512).
>Expanded software to # opt .
>There is absolutely NO mention of anything python - - - java, c and
>its permutations,
On 10/25/2023 9:21 AM, Thomas Passin wrote:
On 10/25/2023 8:50 AM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:00 AM Dieter Maurer
wrote:
o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 06:44 -0500:
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24?AM Dieter Maurer
wrote:
...
There are different kinds of
On 2023-10-25, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> Haven't heard of a python IDE - - - doesn't mean that there isn't such - -
> just that I haven't heard of such. Is there a python IDE?
Seriously? Now you're just trolling.
google.com/search?q=python+ide=python+ide
--
Grant
--
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:56 AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
>
> o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 07:50 -0500:
> >> There are several others,
> >> e.g. "ECLIPSE" can be used for Python development.
> >
> >Is 'Eclipse' a Windows oriented IDE?
>
> No.
> ==> "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_(software)"
o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 07:50 -0500:
>> There are several others,
>> e.g. "ECLIPSE" can be used for Python development.
>
>Is 'Eclipse' a Windows oriented IDE?
No.
==> "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_(software)"
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:00 AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
>
> o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 06:44 -0500:
> >On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24?AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
> > ...
> >> There are different kinds of errors.
> >>
> >> Some can be avoided by using an integrated development environment
> >> (e.g.
o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 06:44 -0500:
>On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24?AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
> ...
>> There are different kinds of errors.
>>
>> Some can be avoided by using an integrated development environment
>> (e.g. misspellings, type mismatches, ...).
>
>Haven't heard of a python IDE -
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:20 AM Chris Angelico via Python-list
wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 21:46, o1bigtenor wrote:
> > > 2. Catch the failure as you save. We have a lot of tools that can help
> > > you to spot bugs.
> >
> > Tools like this for python please.
>
> Various ones. Type
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 22:46, o1bigtenor via Python-list
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24 AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
> >
> > o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-24 07:22 -0500:
> > > ...
> > >Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is
> > >supposed to do even
> > >before all
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24 AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
>
> o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-24 07:22 -0500:
> > ...
> >Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is
> >supposed to do even
> >before all the hardware has been assembled and installed and tested?
>
> Others have already
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:25 AM Chris Angelico via Python-list
wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 21:53, o1bigtenor wrote:
> >
> > Hmm - - - - now how can I combine 'Hamming codes'
> > and a raid array?
> >
> > TIA
>
> Normally you wouldn't. But let's say you're worried that a file might
o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-24 07:22 -0500:
> ...
>Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is
>supposed to do even
>before all the hardware has been assembled and installed and tested?
Others have already noted that "verify" is a very strong aim.
There are different kinds
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 21:53, o1bigtenor wrote:
>
> Hmm - - - - now how can I combine 'Hamming codes'
> and a raid array?
>
> TIA
Normally you wouldn't. But let's say you're worried that a file might
get randomly damaged. (I don't think single-bit errors are really a
significant issue
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 21:46, o1bigtenor wrote:
> > 2. Catch the failure as you save. We have a lot of tools that can help
> > you to spot bugs.
>
> Tools like this for python please.
Various ones. Type checkers like MyPy fall into this category if you
set your system up to run them when you
On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 9:36 PM AVI GROSS via Python-list
wrote:
>
> Agreed, Chris. There are many methods way better than the sort of RAID
> architecture I supplied as AN EXAMPLE easy to understand. But even so, if a
> hard disk or memory chip is fried or a nuclear bomb takes out all servers in
On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 8:43 PM Chris Angelico via Python-list
wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 12:20, AVI GROSS via Python-list
> wrote:
> > Consider an example of bit rot. I mean what if your CPU or hard disk has a
> > location where you can write a byte and read it back multiple times and
A post with useful ideas - - - - thanks (it generates some questions!
interleaved)
On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 8:35 PM Chris Angelico via Python-list
wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 12:11, Thomas Passin via Python-list
> wrote:
> > This doesn't mean that no program can ever be proven to halt, nor
On 10/24/2023 7:37 PM, Grant Edwards via Python-list wrote:
On 2023-10-24, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
Something less ambitious than a full proof of correctness of an
arbitrary program can sometimes be achieved. The programming team
for the Apollo moon mission developed a system
, 2023 9:41 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Question(s)
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 12:20, AVI GROSS via Python-list
wrote:
> Consider an example of bit rot. I mean what if your CPU or hard disk has a
location where you can write a byte and read it back multiple times and
sometimes get the wr
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 12:20, AVI GROSS via Python-list
wrote:
> Consider an example of bit rot. I mean what if your CPU or hard disk has a
> location where you can write a byte and read it back multiple times and
> sometimes get the wrong result. To be really cautions, you might need your
>
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 12:11, Thomas Passin via Python-list
wrote:
> This doesn't mean that no program can ever be proven to halt, nor that
> no program can never be proven correct by formal means. Will your
> program be one of those? The answer may never come ...
Indeed, and I would go
: Re: Question(s)
On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 6:09 PM Thomas Passin via Python-list
wrote:
>
snip
>
> By now you have read many responses that basically say that you cannot
> prove that a given program has no errors, even apart from the hardware
> question. Even if it could be
.
(Is that different than the question(s) that I've asked - - - dunno.)
Stimulating interaction for sure (grin!).
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On 25/10/2023 00:08, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> So how does one test software then?
Testing is very different to proving!
As an industry we do a lot of testing at many different levels.
On bigger projects you'll find:
- Unit tests - testing small fragments of a bigger program
-
On 24/10/2023 22:51, Grant Edwards via Python-list wrote:
>>> Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is
>>> supposed to do even before all the hardware has been assembled and
>>> installed and tested?
> And the specified customer requirements are usually wrong too. Sure,
>
On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> So how does one test software then?
That's what customers are for!
[Actually, that's true more often than it should be.]
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On 2023-10-24, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
> Something less ambitious than a full proof of correctness of an
> arbitrary program can sometimes be achieved. The programming team
> for the Apollo moon mission developed a system which, if you would
> write your requirements in a certain
absolute certainty that it is impossible
to program so that that program is provably correct.
Somehow - - - well - - to me that sounds that programming is illogical.
If I set up a set of mathematical problems (linked) I can prove that the
logic structure of my answer is correct.
That's what I'm loo
On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 5:28 PM Rob Cliffe wrote:
>
> There is no general way to prove that a program is "correct". Or even
> whether it will terminate or loop endlessly.
> These are of course theoretical statements of computer science. But
> they can be rigorously proven. (Sorry if I'm just
On 10/24/2023 8:22 AM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
Greetings
(Sorry for a nebulous subject but dunno how to have a short title for
a complex question.)
I have been using computers for a long time but am only beginning my
foray into the
galaxy of programming. Have done little to this
On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 4:54 PM Grant Edwards via Python-list
wrote:
>
> On 2023-10-24, Dan Purgert via Python-list wrote:
> > On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor wrote:
> >> Greetings
> >>
> >> (Sorry for a nebulous subject but dunno how to have a short title for
> >> a complex question.)
> >> [...]
> >>
> On 24 Oct 2023, at 18:25, o1bigtenor via Python-list
> wrote:
>
> Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is
> supposed to do
In the general case not proven to be not possible.
Have a read about the halting problem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem
It
On 2023-10-24, Dan Purgert via Python-list wrote:
> On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor wrote:
>> Greetings
>>
>> (Sorry for a nebulous subject but dunno how to have a short title for
>> a complex question.)
>> [...]
>> Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is
>> supposed to do
On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor wrote:
> Greetings
>
> (Sorry for a nebulous subject but dunno how to have a short title for
> a complex question.)
> [...]
> Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is
> supposed to do even
> before all the hardware has been assembled and installed
On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is
> supposed to do even before all the hardware has been assembled and
> installed and tested?
It depends on what you mean by "verify ...". If you want to prove a
program correct
I don’t think there i a simple answer to this, although if you find something
interesting, please share.
From my experience, industry is applying variety of testing methods. Starting
from lowest level components and implementing unit tests, finishing with
end-to-end testing platforms.
Greetings
(Sorry for a nebulous subject but dunno how to have a short title for
a complex question.)
I have been using computers for a long time but am only beginning my
foray into the
galaxy of programming. Have done little to this point besides
collection of information
on sensors and working
Steve wrote:
> I am not sure how to post the code for my file here, is copy/paste the
> best way?
Yes. Try to paste only the relevant parts, or, if possible, post a small
self-contained example that can be run by the reader without further
editing.
> Is there another? I understand that
I am not sure how to post the code for my file here, is copy/paste the best
way? Is there another? I understand that attachments are stripped off.
"""
The following segment of code returns values of "spec".
I would like to have it return the associated value of
"DataLine" with each spec. It would
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