...@lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of b...@jmcenter.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 8:35 PM
To: Scarberry, Mark; Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Could the procreation argument carried to the extreme result
...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of b...@jmcenter.org
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 8:40 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Eugene,
I'm sorry, but I don't understand your comment below. I am aware of excuses but
not a rational basis for limiting marriage
.
- Original Message -
From: b...@jmcenter.org
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 11:26:02 PM
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Len,
Given the extreme overpopulation of the U.S. and the world, the state does
,
The list custodian
From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Len
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 2:53 AM
To: b...@jmcenter.org; Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
How so, Bob? Please explain
...@lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Scarberry, Mark
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 8:12 PM
To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
The biological issues with regard to different sex couples mostly can be
answered fairly
for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 9:49:40 PM
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
I realize that my following question gets into another hot-button area, but
is Mark suggesting that there is a strong constitutional interest in
procreation
: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of b...@jmcenter.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 8:26 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Len,
Given the extreme overpopulation of the U.S. and the world
@lists.ucla.edu
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
That may be a perfectly sensible policy position; but I don’t
think that modern constitutional law demands that the government take such a
view. To be sure, the government is constrained in its power to restrict
.
Eugene
From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of b...@jmcenter.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 8:35 PM
To: Scarberry, Mark; Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Could the procreation
: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 8:35 PM
To: Scarberry, Mark; Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Could the procreation argument carried to the extreme result in a requirement
that the marriage applicants be required to certify under oath that they intend
to have
Marty--
Why do you say that footnote is extraordinary?
Best,Stuart
From: lederman.ma...@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2013 10:55:27 -0400
Subject: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
To: conlawp...@lists.ucla.edu; religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
I'm surprised there hasn't been more attention paid
Quest
- Original Message -
From: Stuart Buck stuartb...@msn.com
To: Religion Law religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 5:24:24 PM
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Marty--
Why do you say that footnote is extraordinary?
Best,
Stuart
From
The biological issues with regard to different sex couples mostly can be
answered fairly easily, I think, including with these points:
With regard to medical or similar issues that prevent procreation, a state
inquiry would intrude substantially on privacy, which would justify the state
in not
-- the Alito dissent
The biological issues with regard to different sex couples mostly can be
answered fairly easily, I think, including with these points:
With regard to medical or similar issues that prevent procreation, a state
inquiry would intrude substantially on privacy, which would justify
From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Scarberry, Mark
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 8:12 PM
To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
The biological issues with regard to different sex couples mostly can
: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 6:50 PM
To: Scarberry, Mark; Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
I realize that my following question gets into another hot-button area, but is
Mark suggesting that there is a strong constitutional interest in procreation
at any age
: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 9:49:40 PM
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
I realize that my following question gets into another hot-button area, but is
Mark suggesting that there is a strong constitutional interest in procreation
at any age? Why can’t the state come to the altogether
: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
This is going to sound awfully libertarian of me, but it's none of the state's
business whether a couple has children or not, regardless of age. Rather it is
my understanding that the care and treatment of children resulting from a given
union (by whatever
message
From: Volokh, Eugene vol...@law.ucla.edu
Date: 07/03/2013 5:20 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
That may be a perfectly sensible policy position; but I don’t
think that modern
I'm with Eduardo; I can't believe this. Mr. Esenberg, it's not simply a matter
of disagreement, it's a matter of said arguments simply do not hold water
without a religious premise. Put another way, yes, I disagree with the
arguments, but that's because they're fallacious to the point of
.
Member Maryland and DC Bars.
- Original Message -
From: Jean Dudley
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
I'm with Eduardo; I can't believe this. Mr. Esenberg, it's not simply a
matter
Dudley
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
I'm with Eduardo; I can't believe this. Mr. Esenberg, it's not simply a
matter of disagreement, it's a matter of said arguments simply do not hold
water
...@lists.ucla.edu
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
The morality of homosexual relationships can only be maintained by someone who
is unaware of - or ignores - the arguments that are actually made. You can
certainly disagree with these arguments but they do not proceed from
theological premises
...@lists.ucla.edu]
on behalf of David W. New [david_...@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 8:16 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Respectfully, I disagree with you. I just finished writing a 3,400 word article
making the case against homosexuality
Would you kindly provide one argument that isn't irrational? Understand that
it will indeed be scrutinized for basis in scientific fact, and that it if
fails, it will have to be deemed irrational.
On Jul 1, 2013, at Mon, Jul 1, 6:35 PM, Esenberg, Richard
richard.esenb...@marquette.edu
Pardee
From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Jean Dudley
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 11:00 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Would you kindly provide one argument that isn't
...@lists.ucla.edu]
on behalf of David W. New [david_...@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 8:16 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Respectfully, I disagree with you. I just finished writing a 3,400 word
article making the case against
, July 02, 2013 12:27 AM
To: 'Law Religion issues for Law Academics'
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
How many moral questions are based on scientific fact? Whether an argument is
in support of same sex marriage/relationships or in opposition to them, it
ultimately boils down
Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Respectfully, I disagree with you. I just finished writing a 3,400 word article
making the case against homosexuality without using religion in any way. I
think a very strong case can be made against homosexual lifestyle
...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Jean Dudley
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 11:00 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Would you kindly provide one argument that isn't irrational? Understand that
it will indeed be scrutinized for basis in scientific fact
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Mr. Pardee, I have just posted some statistics on divorce and out-of-wedlock
births that might pass as facts. They suggest that states that allow same
sex marriages have lower divorce rates and lower out
: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 12:45 AM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Mr. Pardee, I have just posted some statistics on divorce and out-of-wedlock
births that might pass as facts. They suggest that states that allow same
sex marriages have lower
, Paul
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 11:45 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Mr. Pardee, I have just posted some statistics on divorce and out-of-wedlock
births that might pass as facts. They suggest that states that allow same
sex marriages
-boun...@lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Jean Dudley
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 9:32 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Add my intellectual curiousity to Dr. Finkelman's. Homosexuality isn't
] On Behalf Of Jean Dudley
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 9:53 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Dunno about moral questions, but it seems to me that there's lots of arguments
made on claims that haven't been proven; Take, for example, the claim
From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Finkelman, Paul
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 11:45 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
Mr. Pardee, I have just posted some statistics
...@lists.ucla.edu
Sent: Sat, Jun 29, 2013 6:14 pm
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
I'm not sure that the second sentence of Marci's comment below is correct for
all constitutional purposes. But I think the first part of the first sentence
can be true. A standard part of the story of religion
On the first point only, the reservation is just that--a reservation. For EC
purposes, doctrine aside, I'm not sure whether I believe the religiosity of a
statement or display can be fixed only by contemporary understanding. I suspect
my conclusion would be that both historical and contemporary
; conlawp...@lists.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito dissent
On the first point only, the reservation is just that--a reservation. For EC
purposes, doctrine aside, I'm not sure whether I believe the religiosity of a
statement or display can be fixed only by contemporary understanding. I suspect
Horwitz [phorw...@hotmail.commailto:phorw...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 12:38 PM
To: hamilto...@aol.commailto:hamilto...@aol.com
Cc: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edumailto:religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu;
conlawp...@lists.ucla.edumailto:conlawp...@lists.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Marriage -- the Alito
I'm surprised there hasn't been more attention paid to the quite remarkable
dissent that Justice Alito filed in Windsor. In it, he contrasts two
competing views of marriage: what he calls the conjugal view, in which
marriage is the solemnizing of a comprehensive, exclusive, permanent union
that
As a couple of you have pointed out to me, Judge Posner has addressed the
Alito dissent; in Slate (
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_breakfast_table/features/2013/supreme_court_2013/supreme_court_and_doma_justice_alito_s_defense_is_all_emotion.html),
he writes:
Alito is drawn
Well, I don't know what Alito may say about Posner's characterization, but
I'm guessing he would not embrace the view he forwarded as emotional and
sectarian, rather than rational. Indeed, I'm finding it hard to imagine
that anyone would characterize their own view that way. (Well, maybe
Westboro
Fair enough, Richard -- I can't of course speak for Posner, but I shouldn't
have suggested that Alito views opposition to same-sex marriage, and to
federal benefits for gay couples, as necessarily emotional and
sectarian. What I meant to refer to was the fact that Alito thinks this
is a question
I understand why it can seem that way, but history can't make a
nonsectarian view sectarian. The claim that the majority -- but not all --
of the arguments one hears are sectarian is per se evidence that it is not
sectarian. There is a reason why the arguments track, but are not derived
from,
Marty:
Agreed. I take it Alito is asserting the non-policymaking principle on
behalf of the judiciary. But you are certainly right that even such a
position does not prohibit the kind of judgment you identify here.
Richard Dougherty
On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Marty Lederman
Of course history (people) can make sectarian views nonsectarian and vice
versa. A religious belief under the Constitution is what the religious
believer says it is right now,
not what history said it was or should be. Alito is following Vatican
(religious) dogma. In current US society,
Well, much of the most interesting work on natural law thinking of the past
20-30 years has been done by non-Catholics, some indeed by non-Christians.
I am genuinely surprised that someone of Judge Posner's erudition wouldn't
be aware of that.
RD
On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Malla Pollack
I'm not sure that the second sentence of Marci's comment below is correct for
all constitutional purposes. But I think the first part of the first sentence
can be true. A standard part of the story of religion and science as dual
magisteria is that the domain of factual claims made by religion
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