Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
Smith was wrongly decided and religious belief and practices inadequately protected. Let me be clear about my position on that. But even under strict scrutiny the courts necessarily engage in balancing and judgment and defer in some instances to the legislature. That is my point which I may not be making very clearly. The balance of government interest, extent of interference, other feasible alternatives, magnitude of the interests of the claimant happen all the time in strict scrutiny or in any other sort of scrutiny. At some point deference is shown; at some point it is not. To me, this is a slam-dunk for the government under wrong-headed Smith; it becomes close under strict scrutiny. And for the record, if an expulsion were to occur under these facts, then I would find a violation. Until that actually happened, I would use ripeness to avoid the issue. Of course the state courts probably do not have that doctrine available to them. So in such an instance I would decide in favor of the religious adherents, but as narrowly as possible. But those are a bunch of I statements, not statements of what I think the law requires as it stands. Steve On Wednesday, November 24, 2004, at 12:48 AM, Volokh, Eugene wrote: I'm puzzled. Steve, you say that you aren't wild about Smith -- but these are precisely the arguments that are made in favor of Smith: Who can tell when an exemption would really dramatically undermine a compelling government interest? Why courts instead of elected officials? Or, borrowing from Paul's argument, what do we do when other people raise other claims, which are different but which may not be easy to distinguish in a principled way? It seems to me that the whole point of strict scrutiny in religious freedom cases is that courts rather than elected officials *are* supposed to determine when an exemption would substantially impair the government interest: That's precisely the point of, for instance, Wisconsin v. Yoder. Likewise, they are supposed to grant exemptions in cases where they don't substantially impair the interest, and leave hypothetical future cases for a future day, see Sherbert v. Verner; Smith (Blackmun dissenting), unless there's reason to think that the exemption is so tempting that there really will be a flood of claims, or great difficulty with sorting the sincere from the insincere, see Gillette; Lee. Now of course one could reject Smith generally, but say that it's right for K-12 education. Free Speech Clause jurisprudence, for instance, does treat the government as K-12 educator more favorably than the government as sovereign. But why exactly would such a regime make sense as to these sorts of claims, where the usual Tinker/Fraser concerns about disruption or vulgarity don't apply? Eugene -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Steven Jamar Sent: Tue 11/23/2004 11:01 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Cc: Subject: Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences Ok. Shifting targets are harder to hit. Who is to decide when substantial impairment kicks in? What authority is there that that is the standard of evaluation? And why courts instead of elected officials? And again, why should someone be allowed to skip school for a ceremony that is not needed or compelled by one's religious beliefs any more than skipping school for hunting or laziness? On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 10:51 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eight days out of 180, that's less than the one sick day a month customary for many employed people. Yes, there is other learning that goes on in schools, but is that other learning (aside from that indicated by grades) so concentrated that missing this amount of school is likely to impair it substantially. Frances Paterson ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8428 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar I am in Birmingham because injustice is here. . . . Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Martin Luther King, Jr., (1963) ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent
RE: Student reprimanded for religious absences
But are the rules neutral? Public schools typically accommodate majoritarian religious holidays and holy days both Christian and Jewish (leaving aside certain Christian sects, as in the case under discussion and leaving aside, perhaps, some Jewish sects) but do not accommodate many, if not all, non-majoritarian religious holidays and holy days. In our increasingly pluralistic society, accommodation of all holidays and holy days would present serious administrative and fiscal problems. But there is no getting around the fact of a bias in favor of typical Christian and Jewish holidays and holy days, and there is something fundamentally unfair about that bias as it plays itself out in the real world, unless, of course, we adopt Scalias dismissive view of religious minorities in Smith. -Original Message- From: Jamar Steve Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 8:09 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences But then where does the court draw the line? 8 days? 14? 20? What is the least restrictive alternative to requiring attendance? They aren't home schooling-- they are asking to be exempted from truly generally applicable neutral rules. Steve On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 06:57 PM, Volokh, Eugene wrote: I'm puzzled by how this argument would be reconciled with traditional strict scrutiny analysis, which is what the Indiana Constitution seems to call for. Is it really the case that expelling students for missing 8 days of school is *necessary* to accomplish the compelling state interest in providing an adequate education to students? The case for accommodation here seems much stronger than, say, in Wisconsin v. Yoder (though I realize that there are distinctions between the two cases). Or is the argument that strict scrutiny should not apply in K-12 education? Eugene -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8428 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar Nothing that is worth anything can be achieved in a lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Reinhold Neibuhr ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
In a message dated 11/24/2004 11:18:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But are the rules neutral? In fact, does the focus have to be on how majoritarian religions are accommodated by the force of calendar and tradition? If the policy says students "may" be expelled rather than "shall" be, I think the foundation of a credible nonneutrality argument is well-laid. Jim Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
Huh? On Wednesday, November 24, 2004, at 11:32 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 11/24/2004 11:18:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But are the rules neutral? In fact, does the focus have to be on how majoritarian religions are accommodated by the force of calendar and tradition? If the policy says students may be expelled rather than shall be, I think the foundation of a credible nonneutrality argument is well-laid. Jim Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Lawfax: 202-806-8428 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar But, Mousie, thou art no thy lane, In proving foresight may be vain; The best-laid schemes o mice an men Gang aft agley, An leae us nought but grief an pain, For promisd joy! Robert Burns, 1785 ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
Maybe you do what the Indiana schools seem to have tried to do, perhaps unsuccessfully, and what my law school gives law students, a certain number of excused absences. They use them however they want. After that, the school examines additional requests for excused absences extremely carefully. I understand and share Steve's discomfort with simply recognizing and granting majoritarian holidays but the fact is that they are days that most people will take by tradition, whether or not they celebrate them for religious reasons. However, I suspect that most people don't take Good Friday in the US off anymore, or All Saints Day, or All Souls Day, even though around here some people celebrate those days and some of my students and some of my colleagues are not around part of those latter two days. Most people come to work. However, Good Friday is a holiday at LSU. (But Memorial Day is not, and and most people who take a vacation day that day are from the north, I think). Would most people come to work or go to school if Good Friday were not a holiday here? I suspect yes. Would they come to work or go to school if Christmas were not a holiday? I suspect no, but I could be wrong. Money and grades are powerful motivators. Christine Corcos Associate Professor of Law Faculty Graduate Studies Program Supervisor Paul M. Hebert Law Center, Louisiana State University Associate Professor, Women's and Gender Studies Program LSU AM W325 Law Building 1 East Campus Drive Baton Rouge LA 70803 tel: 225/578-8327 fax: 225/578-3677 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steven Jamar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by:cc: (bcc: Christine A Corcos/ccorcos/LSU) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences ts.ucla.edu 11/24/2004 10:38 AM Please respond to Law Religion issues for Law Academics Then where is the solution -- no general holidays -- schools don't ever close for Christmas or Yom Kippur despite the fact that significant percentages of the students would miss classes? Minorities are minorities and general rules are crafted for majorities in the main, or large minorities. I'm just unconvinced that going to non-mandatory religious gathering out of town would qualify as the sort of thing needing accommodation as a constitutional matter. Steve On Wednesday, November 24, 2004, at 11:17 AM, Newsom Michael wrote: But are the rules neutral? Public schools typically accommodate majoritarian religious holidays and holy days both Christian and Jewish (leaving aside certain Christian sects, as in the case under discussion and leaving aside, perhaps, some Jewish sects) but do not accommodate many, if not all, non-majoritarian religious holidays and holy days. In our increasingly pluralistic society, accommodation of all holidays and holy days would present serious administrative and fiscal problems. But there is no getting around the fact of a bias in favor of typical Christian and Jewish holidays and holy days, and there is something fundamentally unfair about that bias as it plays itself out in the real world, unless, of course, we adopt Scalias dismissive view of religious minorities in Smith. -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
I agree with Doug here; NYC used to (may still) close for Jewish high holidays because there were not enough teachers in the classrooms. A practical solution; but the hard problem is when students want to take many many days off from school for holidays. I would oppose a strict number of days rule and you can be expelled; I was involved in a successful fight with the Tulsa School Board to change their rule to exclude religous holidays from strict rule that could have led to students being held back for too many missed days. However no one in Tulsa was arguing for a religous exemption for 8 days in a row out of town (which is 5 or 6 school days in a row). Such a student might have trouble passing a class if there were other missed days; does the student then make some claim of religious discrimination because of the work missed during those 8 days? And, is there an entanglement issues here? Many schools do have huge problems with students missing class; hence they have moved to these strict rules. Does the school have a right to ask for "proof" of the need to miss 8 dyas in a row? Proof of a real religous need? Douglas Laycock wrote: This timeI agree with Michael Newsom. The typical Christian observer gets 52 Sundays a year (or 36 or so in the school year). He always gets Easter. He not only gets Christmas day; he gets a week and oftentwo weeks around Christmas day. All this by virtue of the wholecalender and work schedule of government and businessbeing designed to meet his needs. And with Saturdays as the second most widely observed day off, we do adecent job -- but not as good -- for observant Jews and other Sabbatarians as well. The calender is not a neutral rule. The solution is not to change all this. The solution is to give observers of each religion their holy days off. When to close the school or close the office is just a prudential question -- when so many people would be taking off that it makes more sense to close down than to stay open and make individualized exceptions. Douglas Laycock University of Texas Law School 727 E. Dean Keeton St. Austin, TX 78705 512-232-1341 (phone) 512-471-6988 (fax) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Newsom Michael Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 10:17 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Student reprimanded for religious absences But are the rules neutral? Public schools typically accommodate majoritarian religious holidays and holy days both Christian and Jewish (leaving aside certain Christian sects, as in the case under discussion and leaving aside, perhaps, some Jewish sects) but do not accommodate many, if not all, non-majoritarian religious holidays and holy days. In our increasingly pluralistic society, accommodation of all holidays and holy days would present serious administrative and fiscal problems. But there is no getting around the fact of a bias in favor of typical Christian and Jewish holidays and holy days, and there is something fundamentally unfair about that bias as it plays itself out in the real world, unless, of course, we adopt Scalias dismissive view of religious minorities in Smith. -Original Message- From: Jamar Steve Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 8:09 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences But then where does the court draw the line? 8 days? 14? 20? What is the least restrictive alternative to requiring attendance? They aren't home schooling-- they are asking to be exempted from truly generally applicable neutral rules. Steve On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 06:57 PM, Volokh, Eugene wrote: I'm puzzled by how this argument would be reconciled with traditional strictscrutiny analysis, which is what the Indiana Constitution seems to callfor. Is it really the case that expelling students for missing 8 days ofschool is *necessary* to accomplish the compelling state interest in providing an adequate education to students? The case for accommodation here seems much stronger than, say, in Wisconsin v. Yoder (though I realize that thereare distinctions between the two cases). Or is theargument that strict scrutiny should not apply in K-12education? Eugene -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8428 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar "Nothing that is worth anything can be achieved in a lifetime; th
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
I haven't seen anyone say that students ought not be accommodated for some limited number of religious holy days. So I think there is general agreement on that part of it. And I think that getting school boards to recognize holidays as excused absences makes a lot of sense. It seems that any organized religion would be able to notify the school in advance of the school year to inform the school of when its adherents would be required or strongly expected to attend and miss school. Then it would be a matter of the family notifying the school ahead of time that their children will miss those days. There are lots of ways to work this out as a practical matter without resort to making an attendance policy a constitutional case. Of course no matter how clever and careful and flexible the system, there will be abuses and there will be borderline cases and individualized religions and understandings of requirements. One cannot really do a Christian calendar or a Jewish one or Muslim and be sure to get it right for every sect. Or any particular sect. I remain unconvinced that the warning that you should not miss more school and that if you do, you might be expelled, constitutes a violation of free exercise rights under a strict scrutiny regime or under Smith. This one would turn on facts that we don't know -- but on what I know, I don't think I would enjoin the school district from enforcing its rule ahead of time. Steve -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar/ Love the pitcher less and the water more. Sufi Saying ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Student reprimanded for religious absences
The complete news story indicates that students do get one excused day of religious observance; this student had already taken it. Christine Corcos Associate Professor of Law Faculty Graduate Studies Program Supervisor Paul M. Hebert Law Center, Louisiana State University Associate Professor, Women's and Gender Studies Program LSU AM W325 Law Building 1 East Campus Drive Baton Rouge LA 70803 tel: 225/578-8327 fax: 225/578-3677 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mark Stern [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by:cc: (bcc: Christine A Corcos/ccorcos/LSU) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Student reprimanded for religious absences ts.ucla.edu 11/23/2004 01:19 PM Please respond to Law Religion issues for Law Academics If school officials have discretion which absences to excuse and which not(as it appears from the story that they do),then the federal free exercise clause would seem to require excusal absent compelling interest. Marc Stern -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: FW: Student reprimanded for religious absences Any thoughts on this issue? The Indiana Free Exercise Clause has been interpreted to require strict scrutiny, City Chapel Evangelical Free Inc. v. City of South Bend, 744 N.E.2d 443 (Ind. 2001), though I know of no cases that have dealt with the government's role as K-12 educator. Eugene http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2004/11/21/news/lake_county/2e51b ae417129d4486256f52007f530f.txt The parent of a sixth-grade Lowell Middle School student says the Tri-Creek School Corp. has threatened to expel her child for religious beliefs. Ruth Scheidt said middle school officials forced her 12-year-old son to sign a letter last month stating he understood if he missed another day of school for any reason before the end of the semester in January, he could be expelled. The family had just returned from an out-of-state, eight-day religious observance called the Feast of Tabernacles, celebrated by the United Church of God. . . . Under Indiana law there is no ruling as to whether children are to be excused for religious purposes, Neal said. The Indiana Department of Education holds firmly that it is not a reason to excuse students under Indiana law. . . . Students are allowed five days of excused absences per semester, Neal said. Excused absences include illness with a doctor's note, a death in the immediate family, quarantine or court appearance. Occasionally there may be an emergency in a family, Neal said. The principal may excuse a day to do that. After more than five absences, students must sign a letter acknowledging they understand they could be expelled. Some states provide a list of approved absences that are religious-based, but Indiana does not, Neal said. . . . ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
Not knowing the facts of the situation w/r to travel distance is also problematic. For example my community here in the UP of Michigan is 5 hours away from a coservative or Orthodox synagogue (which also happens to be in another state). To ask a family in such a situation to start observances say Sunday eve that may conclude at sunset Monday, then to drive back all day Wednesday just so they can go to school on Thursday and drive again back again all day Friday for evening services on that day (esp during certain times of year) seems a bit harsh not to say costly and expensive. Most families here could not and cannot afford to make such arrangements. My hope would be that the facts, e.g. where you live and how easily you can travel (e.g. car, bus, someone elses car etc) should make some difference. I guess the question is what the test would be to see if these incidents to the religous observances need to be accomodated.Should some people get more accomodation than others? How would the courts decide? Ideally the school should be flexible, but maybe they have some reason not to be? If the school has a strict attendance policy and the student needs to take four days off for religious holiday (use my earlier example of the observant Jew and Passover) it might be constitutionally required that the studnet can get the fourdays off without penalty; but surely there is no requirement that the student also get off the four days in between those four days, plus a travel day. Indeed, even if the religious observance *required* that the observance take place in a particular place, and could not take place elsewhere, I don't see how there could ba constitutional requirement that the travel days or days in between obervance, be exempt from the attendance requirement. So, maybe you are right, that required or elective travel should not be exempt. Steven Jamar wrote: I am unaware that the United Church of God requires out-of-state attendance. Does that matter? Does it matter whether it is a requirement as opposed to an elective thing? It seems to me that the state has a compelling state interest in educating its citizens and that that is what we look at, not at some compelling interest to change the rules on attendance for an elective activity. Steve On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 02:19 PM, Mark Stern wrote: If school officials have discretion which absences to excuse and which not(as it appears from the story that they do),then the federal free exercise clause would seem to require excusal absent compelling interest. Marc Stern -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: FW: Student reprimanded for religious absences Any thoughts on this issue? The Indiana Free Exercise Clause has been interpreted to require strict scrutiny, City Chapel Evangelical Free Inc. v. City of South Bend, 744 N.E.2d 443 (Ind. 2001), though I know of no cases that have dealt with the government's role as K-12 educator. Eugene http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2004/11/21/news/lake_county/ 2e51b ae417129d4486256f52007f530f.txt The parent of a sixth-grade Lowell Middle School student says the Tri-Creek School Corp. has threatened to expel her child for religious beliefs. Ruth Scheidt said middle school officials forced her 12-year-old son to sign a letter last month stating he understood if he missed another day of school for any reason before the end of the semester in January, he could be expelled. The family had just returned from an out-of-state, eight-day religious observance called the Feast of Tabernacles, celebrated by the United Church of God. . . . Under Indiana law there is no ruling as to whether children are to be excused for religious purposes, Neal said. The Indiana Department of Education holds firmly that it is not a reason to excuse students under Indiana law. . . . Students are allowed five days of excused absences per semester, Neal said. Excused absences include illness with a doctor's note, a death in the immediate family, quarantine or court appearance. Occasionally there may be an emergency in a family, Neal said. The principal may excuse a day to do that. After more than five absences, students must sign a letter acknowledging they understand they could be expelled. Some states provide a list of approved absences that are religious-based, but Indiana does not, Neal said. . . . ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward
RE: Student reprimanded for religious absences
I'm surely no expert on the United Church of God; but according to http://www.ucg.org/booklets/UC/feasttabernacles.htm, it seems that this is an 8-day event, and it does take place away from most people's homes: The highlight of each year for members of the United Church of God is the biblical Feast of Tabernacles. Among the sacred feasts God revealed to ancient Israel, this festival, which falls in autumn in the northern hemisphere, lasts seven days and is immediately followed by a separate but related festival on the eighth day (Leviticus 23:34, 36, 39). This eight-day period remains an occasion for God's servants to come together for spiritual instruction and renewal. Meeting in regional locations around the world, families gather to picture the 'world to come' (see Hebrews 2:5-7), which will begin immediately after the return of Christ to earth. The theme of the Feast of Tabernacles is Jesus' millennial reign. Eugene -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susanna Peters Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 1:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences Not knowing the facts of the situation w/r to travel distance is also problematic. For example my community here in the UP of Michigan is 5 hours away from a coservative or Orthodox synagogue (which also happens to be in another state). To ask a family in such a situation to start observances say Sunday eve that may conclude at sunset Monday, then to drive back all day Wednesday just so they can go to school on Thursday and drive again back again all day Friday for evening services on that day (esp during certain times of year) seems a bit harsh not to say costly and expensive. Most families here could not and cannot afford to make such arrangements. My hope would be that the facts, e.g. where you live and how easily you can travel (e.g. car, bus, someone elses car etc) should make some difference. I guess the question is what the test would be to see if these incidents to the religous observances need to be accomodated.Should some people get more accomodation than others? How would the courts decide? Ideally the school should be flexible, but maybe they have some reason not to be? If the school has a strict attendance policy and the student needs to take four days off for religious holiday (use my earlier example of the observant Jew and Passover) it might be constitutionally required that the studnet can get the fourdays off without penalty; but surely there is no requirement that the student also get off the four days in between those four days, plus a travel day. Indeed, even if the religious observance *required* that the observance take place in a particular place, and could not take place elsewhere, I don't see how there could ba constitutional requirement that the travel days or days in between obervance, be exempt from the attendance requirement. So, maybe you are right, that required or elective travel should not be exempt. Steven Jamar wrote: I am unaware that the United Church of God requires out-of-state attendance. Does that matter? Does it matter whether it is a requirement as opposed to an elective thing? It seems to me that the state has a compelling state interest in educating its citizens and that that is what we look at, not at some compelling interest to change the rules on attendance for an elective activity. Steve On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 02:19 PM, Mark Stern wrote: If school officials have discretion which absences to excuse and which not(as it appears from the story that they do),then the federal free exercise clause would seem to require excusal absent compelling interest. Marc Stern -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: FW: Student reprimanded for religious absences Any thoughts on this issue? The Indiana Free Exercise Clause has been interpreted to require strict scrutiny, City Chapel Evangelical Free Inc. v. City of South Bend, 744 N.E.2d 443 (Ind. 2001), though I know of no cases that have dealt with the government's role as K-12 educator. Eugene http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2004/11/21/news/lake_county/ 2e51b ae417129d4486256f52007f530f.txt The parent of a sixth-grade Lowell Middle School student says the Tri-Creek School Corp. has threatened to expel her child for religious beliefs. Ruth Scheidt said middle school officials forced her 12-year-old son to sign a letter last month stating he understood if he missed another day of school for any reason before the end
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
True enough, but I wonder if this is something the school can accommodate or should have to; imagine your hypothetical family decides that it must travel every weekend to attend services five hours away, and must arrive at least a few hours before sundown; so, starting in October and running through early March; the family pulls its children out of school every Friday at 10:00 am to get to where they are headed by 3:00. Add to that many days off for other holidays. Are you suggesting the schools must accept all these missed days and work around the student; can teachers never give exams on Friday or homework on Thrusday that is due Friday? Paul Finkelman Susanna Peters wrote: Not knowing the facts of the situation w/r to travel distance is also problematic. For example my community here in the UP of Michigan is 5 hours away from a coservative or Orthodox synagogue (which also happens to be in another state). To ask a family in such a situation to start observances say Sunday eve that may conclude at sunset Monday, then to drive back all day Wednesday just so they can go to school on Thursday and drive again back again all day Friday for evening services on that day (esp during certain times of year) seems a bit harsh not to say costly and expensive. Most families here could not and cannot afford to make such arrangements. My hope would be that the facts, e.g. where you live and how easily you can travel (e.g. car, bus, someone elses car etc) should make some difference. I guess the question is what the test would be to see if these incidents to the religous observances need to be accomodated.Should some people get more accomodation than others? How would the courts decide? Ideally the school should be flexible, but maybe they have some reason not to be? If the school has a strict attendance policy and the student needs to take four days off for religious holiday (use my earlier example of the observant Jew and Passover) it might be constitutionally required that the studnet can get the fourdays off without penalty; but surely there is no requirement that the student also get off the four days in between those four days, plus a travel day. Indeed, even if the religious observance *required* that the observance take place in a particular place, and could not take place elsewhere, I don't see how there could ba constitutional requirement that the travel days or days in between obervance, be exempt from the attendance requirement. So, maybe you are right, that required or elective travel should not be exempt. Steven Jamar wrote: I am unaware that the United Church of God requires out-of-state attendance. Does that matter? Does it matter whether it is a requirement as opposed to an elective thing? It seems to me that the state has a compelling state interest in educating its citizens and that that is what we look at, not at some compelling interest to change the rules on attendance for an elective activity. Steve On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 02:19 PM, Mark Stern wrote: If school officials have discretion which absences to excuse and which not(as it appears from the story that they do),then the federal free exercise clause would seem to require excusal absent compelling interest. Marc Stern -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: FW: Student reprimanded for religious absences Any thoughts on this issue? The Indiana Free Exercise Clause has been interpreted to require strict scrutiny, City Chapel Evangelical Free Inc. v. City of South Bend, 744 N.E.2d 443 (Ind. 2001), though I know of no cases that have dealt with the government's role as K-12 educator. Eugene http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2004/11/21/news/lake_county/ 2e51b ae417129d4486256f52007f530f.txt The parent of a sixth-grade Lowell Middle School student says the Tri-Creek School Corp. has threatened to expel her child for religious beliefs. Ruth Scheidt said middle school officials forced her 12-year-old son to sign a letter last month stating he understood if he missed another day of school for any reason before the end of the semester in January, he could be expelled. The family had just returned from an out-of-state, eight-day religious observance called the Feast of Tabernacles, celebrated by the United Church of God. . . . Under Indiana law there is no ruling as to whether children are to be excused for religious purposes, Neal said. The Indiana Department of Education holds firmly that it is not a reason to excuse students under Indiana law. . . . Students are allowed five days of excused absences per semester, Neal said. Excused absences include illness with a doctor's note, a death in the immediate family, quarantine or court appearance. Occasionally there may be an emergency in a family, Neal said. The principal may
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
Surely education is a compelling state interest and requiring attendance as a part of that and setting an attendance policy is within the discretion of the school board. This is a decision not for the courts. At some point there needs to be some accommodation. But it cannot be an accommodation that requires missing a full week of school each year. Should the school district amend its rules and provide greater accommodation for students of various religious backgrounds? Surely. Should courts step in and make it a matter of constitutional right? I would tread that ground very, very cautiously. Steve -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar/ Example is always more efficacious than precept. Samuel Johnson, 1759 ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Student reprimanded for religious absences
Title: Message I'm puzzled by how this argument would be reconciled with traditional strict scrutiny analysis, which is what the Indiana Constitution seems to call for. Is it really the case that expelling students for missing 8 days of school is *necessary* to accomplish the compelling state interest in providing an adequate education to students? The case for accommodation here seems much stronger than, say, in Wisconsin v. Yoder (though I realize that there are distinctions between the two cases). Or is the argument that strict scrutiny should not apply in K-12 education? Eugene -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven JamarSent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 3:53 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences Surely education is a compelling state interest and requiring attendance as a part of that and setting an attendance policy is within the discretion of the school board. This is a decision not for the courts. At some point there needs to be some accommodation. But it cannot be an accommodation that requires missing a full week of school each year. Should the school district amend its rules and provide greater accommodation for students of various religious backgrounds? Surely. Should courts step in and make it a matter of constitutional right? I would tread that ground very, very cautiously. ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
But then where does the court draw the line? 8 days? 14? 20? What is the least restrictive alternative to requiring attendance? They aren't home schooling-- they are asking to be exempted from truly generally applicable neutral rules. Steve On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 06:57 PM, Volokh, Eugene wrote: I'm puzzled by how this argument would be reconciled with traditional strict scrutiny analysis, which is what the Indiana Constitution seems to call for. Is it really the case that expelling students for missing 8 days of school is *necessary* to accomplish the compelling state interest in providing an adequate education to students? The case for accommodation here seems much stronger than, say, in Wisconsin v. Yoder (though I realize that there are distinctions between the two cases). Or is the argument that strict scrutiny should not apply in K-12 education? Eugene -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8428 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar Nothing that is worth anything can be achieved in a lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Reinhold Neibuhr ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Student reprimanded for religious absences
Title: Message I sympathize with Steve's arguments. They are in fact good arguments against strict scrutiny. But if the state constitution has been interpreted as mandating strict scrutiny, then don't courts have to draw such lines? -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven JamarSent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 5:09 PMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences But then where does the court draw the line? 8 days? 14? 20? What is the least restrictive alternative to requiring attendance? They aren't home schooling-- they are asking to be exempted from truly generally applicable neutral rules. Steve On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 06:57 PM, Volokh, Eugene wrote: I'm puzzled by how this argument would be reconciled with traditional strict scrutiny analysis, which is what the Indiana Constitution seems to call for. Is it really the case that expelling students for missing 8 days of school is *necessary* to accomplish the compelling state interest in providing an adequate education to students? The case for accommodation here seems much stronger than, say, in Wisconsin v. Yoder (though I realize that there are distinctions between the two cases). Or is the argument that strict scrutiny should not apply in K-12 education? Eugene -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8428 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar "Nothing that is worth anything can be achieved in a lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope." Reinhold Neibuhr ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
I am not altogether convinced that administrative convenience passes for truly neutral rules. What is the source of the fiction that 180 days makes the appropriate length of school year. Or that school must meet on only mondays through fridays. Or that school during the fall-winter-spring (a farmlife artifact) is essential to any government purpose of significance. Shake any of the premises for the traditionally scheduled public school calendar and you will find, I suspect, a devotion to tradition and history that is both slavish and not a hallmark of the history program of the schools. Jim Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
eliminates the pop quiz in all her classes on Friday? Susanna Peters wrote: The M-F schedule is likely an artifact of Sabbatarian habits (and could be viewed as evidence of preference/accomodation for a majority sect). Anyway, if strict scrutiny applies, would people agree that the state seems to be on shaky ground? A student who for religious reasons had to miss school, for example, every friday (a whopping 36 days!), could argue that the state can accomplish its objective of providing a good education for her by simple cost free accomodations since she agrees (hypothetically) to do her school work early and is willing to take Friday tests on Thursday or Monday etc. I guess I am wondering if there is some reason strict scrutiny should not apply. The school is not a prison, and if Yoder does not apply, then what does? Would a state RFRA would come into play at all? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am not altogether convinced that administrative convenience passes for truly neutral rules. What is the source of the fiction that 180 days makes the appropriate length of school year. Or that school must meet on only mondays through fridays. Or that school during the fall-winter-spring (a farmlife artifact) is essential to any government purpose of significance. Shake any of the premises for the traditionally scheduled public school calendar and you will find, I suspect, a devotion to tradition and history that is both slavish and not a hallmark of the history program of the schools. Jim Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, OK 74104-3189 918-631-3706 (office) 918-631-2194 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Student reprimanded for religious absences
Quizzes are definitely a problem -- but they're also a problem for students who take their one religious holiday that the school does provide, as well as for students who are sick. Presumably the school has some means of dealing with that, and the burden on the school seems likely to be modest. I can certainly see how the burden could mount if the child misses very many days of school; but how many pop quzzes are likely to happen in an 8-day period? Eugene -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Finkelman Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 6:22 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences eliminates the pop quiz in all her classes on Friday? Susanna Peters wrote: The M-F schedule is likely an artifact of Sabbatarian habits (and could be viewed as evidence of preference/accomodation for a majority sect). Anyway, if strict scrutiny applies, would people agree that the state seems to be on shaky ground? A student who for religious reasons had to miss school, for example, every friday (a whopping 36 days!), could argue that the state can accomplish its objective of providing a good education for her by simple cost free accomodations since she agrees (hypothetically) to do her school work early and is willing to take Friday tests on Thursday or Monday etc. I guess I am wondering if there is some reason strict scrutiny should not apply. The school is not a prison, and if Yoder does not apply, then what does? Would a state RFRA would come into play at all? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am not altogether convinced that administrative convenience passes for truly neutral rules. What is the source of the fiction that 180 days makes the appropriate length of school year. Or that school must meet on only mondays through fridays. Or that school during the fall-winter-spring (a farmlife artifact) is essential to any government purpose of significance. Shake any of the premises for the traditionally scheduled public school calendar and you will find, I suspect, a devotion to tradition and history that is both slavish and not a hallmark of the history program of the schools. Jim Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ - --- ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, OK 74104-3189 918-631-3706 (office) 918-631-2194 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
One issue that has not been raised is this student's grades. If he can miss school without any impairment of his academic performance, then where is the compelling state interest? Frances Paterson ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
The examples we trot out show why courts try not to decide hypothetical cases. I am not a fan of Smith and I really think the state should be required to accommodate reasonable requests. Just what constitutes a least restrictive alternative does, of course, vary with the magnitude of the state's interest as well as with the importance (howsoever calculated) of the interest claimed by the religious adherent. Though I am a proponent of accommodation in this sort of situation, I am much less certain that it should be a court-imposed accommodation and I am much less certain that even strict scrutiny will throw out the state's chosen method of protecting its interest here, though it may in fact do exactly that. I think Mr. Henderson's remark completely misses the mark -- the state need not defend all of its decisions on the basis of strict scrutiny and history and tradition and current desires are plenty good enough to support the decisions of the school board as to school year and number of days and absences policies and all the rest. The only question is to what extent an exception MUST be carved out when faced with a religious claim based upon a discretionary religious observance -- the adherents have a choice of attending or not. I think the school board should, as a matter of policy, in general permit this exception. But then the problem arises of drawing the line the next time. Compulsory education, compulsory attendance are the rules. School is not really an oh, I think I'll drop in today sort of proposition. (Except during hunting season where I grew up -- an amazing amount of hunter's flu excuses showed up during hunting season (illness absences were excused, hunting absences were not).) Steve -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar/ There are obviously two educations. One should teach us how to make a living and the other how to live. James Truslow Adams ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
In theory at least education is more than just about grades; Consider if this were an ABA accredited law school at a state university; many classes have mandatory attendance requirements and students are failed or have their grades lowered if they miss class. Imagine the law student who misses (for religious reasons) an hour an 15 min of a required class every friday; can the professor fail he student on attendence? Even if student passes exam, the course requirements are not met if there is an attendance requirement. Paul Finkelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One issue that has not been raised is this student's grades. If he can miss school without any impairment of his academic performance, then where is the compelling state interest? Frances Paterson ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, OK 74104-3189 918-631-3706 (office) 918-631-2194 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
Well, if that were the test, my kids could have attended the first day, come in for the tests, and played the rest of the time. As could about 15-20% of the students. If all we are concerned about is grades. But that is not the only learning going on in school, is it. On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 09:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One issue that has not been raised is this student's grades. If he can miss school without any impairment of his academic performance, then where is the compelling state interest? Frances Paterson -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8428 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, its the only thing that ever has. Margaret Meade ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
Eight days out of 180, that's less than the one sick day a month customary for many employed people. Yes, there is other learning that goes on in schools, but is that other learning (aside from that indicated by grades) so concentrated that missing this amount of school is likely to impair it substantially. Frances Paterson ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Student reprimanded for religious absences
Ok. Shifting targets are harder to hit. Who is to decide when substantial impairment kicks in? What authority is there that that is the standard of evaluation? And why courts instead of elected officials? And again, why should someone be allowed to skip school for a ceremony that is not needed or compelled by one's religious beliefs any more than skipping school for hunting or laziness? On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 10:51 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eight days out of 180, that's less than the one sick day a month customary for many employed people. Yes, there is other learning that goes on in schools, but is that other learning (aside from that indicated by grades) so concentrated that missing this amount of school is likely to impair it substantially. Frances Paterson ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8428 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar I am in Birmingham because injustice is here. . . . Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Martin Luther King, Jr., (1963) ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
