Re: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO
Hello Tom, if your titration value is 1,9 , there is no need for additional treatment, since the acidic ions from the vinegar will be included in the titration value. However, you shoulddetermine the water content of the oil before processing it. A good value here is max 0,5%. Yes, you are right, the oxonium ions from the vinegar will produce water when neutralized and the complete reaction will be the following : H3O+ + Ac- + Na+ + OH- 2 H2O + Na+ Ac- but NaOH in methanol and in oil with some vinegar the following reaction takes place: Na+ + MeO - + H3O + Ac- + H2O MeOH + Na+ Ac- + 2 H2O This means that instead of one extra water molecule you will produce one molecule of methanol, since sodium hydroxide will form sodium methoxide and water in methanol. It is of some comfort, isn´t it ? Best of luck to you ! Jan Jan WarnqvistAGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89+46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 7:21 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO Zeke, Mark and Doug, Thanks for your thoughts. The oil comes from a nice restaurant.Some of their appetizersare deep fried and could contribute acid to the oil. I just spoke to one of the kitchen staff. He said theyscrub the fryers w. vinegarand it goes, along w. the oil, into the grease dumpster. I suspect most of the vinegar settles out w. the water. I am interested in the role these water-soluble acids might play in the reaction and the byproductsmade. Since they are not fatty acids, they should not produce soap themselves, but won't lye + vinegar (acetic acid) produce sodium acetate and water? Should I try to neutralize the vinegarbefore dryingthe oil? Should I go to the trouble of washing the oil and allowing it to settle for a few weeks before drying it? It is good oil and there is a lot of it. Washed w. water, settled overnight, then dried, it titrates at 1.9g/L . Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Doug Turner To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO Hi Tom, Some restaurants will use a vinegar rinse after cleaning their fryer equipment. The intent is to extend the useful oil lifespan by neutralizing any bases (from the soaps) that may remain after cleaning. They should do a final water rise but many do not. This could be the source of your acid. Doug Turner - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO Good day to all, I have anew source of WVO. It is very clear and light in color. I did a titration w/o drying it. I was surprised to find that it required 3.2ml of .1% lyeto neutralize each ml of oil. We heateda sampleof the oil and some water fell out.The dry oil titrated at 2.6ml of the lye solution. I shake-washed some of the oil in water and then dried the oil titration required only2.3ml of the lye solution.The wash water was ever so slightly acid. There seems to be water soluble acid(s) in this oil. While heating the oil, a friend commented on the smell. My wife came home and asked if we wereusing vinegar. Here's the questions: 1. Do restaurants either fry foods with vinegar in/on them? Do acids from frying cheeses (mozarella sticks) leach into the oil?Do restaurants clean their grills/friers w. vinegar? 2. Am I correct in assuming that these mysterious water-soluble acidswill be neutralized by the lye and will not contribute to soap formation? Thanks for listening, Tom ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing
Re: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO
Thanks Jan for your reply. I will spend time trying to come to grips w. the chemistry. I sense that, once dried, this oil can be treated as any other WVO. Adjust amount of lye to neutralize acids present + 3.5g lye/L of oil. Any salts formed from reactions w. vinegar will wash out and not present any disposal problems. I plan to run a small test batch. If all goes well I'll add the oil to the mix from other sources. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Jan Warnqvist To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 3:59 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO Hello Tom, if your titration value is 1,9 , there is no need for additional treatment, since the acidic ions from the vinegar will be included in the titration value. However, you shoulddetermine the water content of the oil before processing it. A good value here is max 0,5%. Yes, you are right, the oxonium ions from the vinegar will produce water when neutralized and the complete reaction will be the following : H3O+ + Ac- + Na+ + OH- → 2 H2O + Na+ Ac- but NaOH in methanol and in oil with some vinegar the following reaction takes place: Na+ + MeO - + H3O + Ac- + H2O → MeOH + Na+ Ac- + 2 H2O This means that instead of one extra water molecule you will produce one molecule of methanol, since sodium hydroxide will form sodium methoxide and water in methanol. It is of some comfort, isn´t it ? Best of luck to you ! Jan Jan WarnqvistAGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89+46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 7:21 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO Zeke, Mark and Doug, Thanks for your thoughts. The oil comes from a nice restaurant.Some of their appetizersare deep fried and could contribute acid to the oil. I just spoke to one of the kitchen staff. He said theyscrub the fryers w. vinegarand it goes, along w. the oil, into the grease dumpster. I suspect most of the vinegar settles out w. the water. I am interested in the role these water-soluble acids might play in the reaction and the byproductsmade. Since they are not fatty acids, they should not produce soap themselves, but won't lye + vinegar (acetic acid) produce sodium acetate and water? Should I try to neutralize the vinegarbefore dryingthe oil? Should I go to the trouble of washing the oil and allowing it to settle for a few weeks before drying it? It is good oil and there is a lot of it. Washed w. water, settled overnight, then dried, it titrates at 1.9g/L . Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Doug Turner To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO Hi Tom, Some restaurants will use a vinegar rinse after cleaning their fryer equipment. The intent is to extend the useful oil lifespan by neutralizing any bases (from the soaps) that may remain after cleaning. They should do a final water rise but many do not. This could be the source of your acid. Doug Turner - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO Good day to all, I have anew source of WVO. It is very clear and light in color. I did a titration w/o drying it. I was surprised to find that it required 3.2ml of .1% lyeto neutralize each ml of oil. We heateda sampleof the oil and some water fell out.The dry oil titrated at 2.6ml of the lye solution. I shake-washed some of the oil in water and then dried the oil titration required only2.3ml of the lye solution.The wash water was ever so slightly acid. There seems to be water soluble acid(s) in this oil. While heating the oil, a friend commented on the smell. My wife came home and asked if we wereusing vinegar. Here's the questions: 1. Do restaurants either fry foods with vinegar in/on them? Do acids from frying cheeses (mozarella sticks) leach into the oil?Do restaurants clean their grills/friers w. vinegar? 2. Am I correct in assuming that these mysterious water-soluble acidswill be neutralized by the lye and will not contribute to soap formation? Thanks for listening, Tom
[Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO
Good day to all, I have anew source of WVO. It is very clear and light in color. I did a titration w/o drying it. I was surprised to find that it required 3.2ml of .1% lyeto neutralize each ml of oil. We heateda sampleof the oil and some water fell out.The dry oil titrated at 2.6ml of the lye solution. I shake-washed some of the oil in water and then dried the oil titration required only2.3ml of the lye solution.The wash water was ever so slightly acid. There seems to be water soluble acid(s) in this oil. While heating the oil, a friend commented on the smell. My wife came home and asked if we wereusing vinegar. Here's the questions: 1. Do restaurants either fry foods with vinegar in/on them? Do acids from frying cheeses (mozarella sticks) leach into the oil?Do restaurants clean their grills/friers w. vinegar? 2. Am I correct in assuming that these mysterious water-soluble acidswill be neutralized by the lye and will not contribute to soap formation? Thanks for listening, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO
What's on the menu for the restuarant? Typical american fried stuff like fries wouldn't have vinegar, but I bet there could be other foods that do. On 2/17/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good day to all, I have a new source of WVO. It is very clear and light in color. I did a titration w/o drying it. I was surprised to find that it required 3.2ml of .1% lye to neutralize each ml of oil. We heated a sample of the oil and some water fell out. The dry oil titrated at 2.6ml of the lye solution. I shake-washed some of the oil in water and then dried the oil titration required only 2.3ml of the lye solution. The wash water was ever so slightly acid. There seems to be water soluble acid(s) in this oil. While heating the oil, a friend commented on the smell. My wife came home and asked if we were using vinegar. Here's the questions: 1. Do restaurants either fry foods with vinegar in/on them? Do acids from frying cheeses (mozarella sticks) leach into the oil? Do restaurants clean their grills/friers w. vinegar? 2. Am I correct in assuming that these mysterious water-soluble acids will be neutralized by the lye and will not contribute to soap formation? Thanks for listening, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO
down here in tx we fry up a lot of buffalo wings. pre-frozen versions of this probably contain tobasco or some form of pickled pepper to give it a spicy (hot) flavor. also, mcdonalds fries the spicy chicken sandwich which is a prebreaded chicken patty and includes some form of spice for hot flavor, which probably includes vinegar. my guess is that is how the vinegar gets in the oil pre-coated prepared foods. -Mark -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Thomas KellySent: Friday, February 17, 2006 7:57 AMTo: biofuelSubject: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO Good day to all, I have anew source of WVO. It is very clear and light in color. I did a titration w/o drying it. I was surprised to find that it required 3.2ml of .1% lyeto neutralize each ml of oil. We heateda sampleof the oil and some water fell out.The dry oil titrated at 2.6ml of the lye solution. I shake-washed some of the oil in water and then dried the oil titration required only2.3ml of the lye solution.The wash water was ever so slightly acid. There seems to be water soluble acid(s) in this oil. While heating the oil, a friend commented on the smell. My wife came home and asked if we wereusing vinegar. Here's the questions: 1. Do restaurants either fry foods with vinegar in/on them? Do acids from frying cheeses (mozarella sticks) leach into the oil?Do restaurants clean their grills/friers w. vinegar? 2. Am I correct in assuming that these mysterious water-soluble acidswill be neutralized by the lye and will not contribute to soap formation? Thanks for listening, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO
Hi Tom, Some restaurants will use a vinegar rinse after cleaning their fryer equipment. The intent is to extend the useful oil lifespan by neutralizing any bases (from the soaps) that may remain after cleaning. They should do a final water rise but many do not. This could be the source of your acid. Doug Turner - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO Good day to all, I have anew source of WVO. It is very clear and light in color. I did a titration w/o drying it. I was surprised to find that it required 3.2ml of .1% lyeto neutralize each ml of oil. We heateda sampleof the oil and some water fell out.The dry oil titrated at 2.6ml of the lye solution. I shake-washed some of the oil in water and then dried the oil titration required only2.3ml of the lye solution.The wash water was ever so slightly acid. There seems to be water soluble acid(s) in this oil. While heating the oil, a friend commented on the smell. My wife came home and asked if we wereusing vinegar. Here's the questions: 1. Do restaurants either fry foods with vinegar in/on them? Do acids from frying cheeses (mozarella sticks) leach into the oil?Do restaurants clean their grills/friers w. vinegar? 2. Am I correct in assuming that these mysterious water-soluble acidswill be neutralized by the lye and will not contribute to soap formation? Thanks for listening, Tom ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO
Zeke, Mark and Doug, Thanks for your thoughts. The oil comes from a nice restaurant.Some of their appetizersare deep fried and could contribute acid to the oil. I just spoke to one of the kitchen staff. He said theyscrub the fryers w. vinegarand it goes, along w. the oil, into the grease dumpster. I suspect most of the vinegar settles out w. the water. I am interested in the role these water-soluble acids might play in the reaction and the byproductsmade. Since they are not fatty acids, they should not produce soap themselves, but won't lye + vinegar (acetic acid) produce sodium acetate and water? Should I try to neutralize the vinegarbefore dryingthe oil? Should I go to the trouble of washing the oil and allowing it to settle for a few weeks before drying it? It is good oil and there is a lot of it. Washed w. water, settled overnight, then dried, it titrates at 1.9g/L . Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Doug Turner To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO Hi Tom, Some restaurants will use a vinegar rinse after cleaning their fryer equipment. The intent is to extend the useful oil lifespan by neutralizing any bases (from the soaps) that may remain after cleaning. They should do a final water rise but many do not. This could be the source of your acid. Doug Turner - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:56 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Vinegar in WVO Good day to all, I have anew source of WVO. It is very clear and light in color. I did a titration w/o drying it. I was surprised to find that it required 3.2ml of .1% lyeto neutralize each ml of oil. We heateda sampleof the oil and some water fell out.The dry oil titrated at 2.6ml of the lye solution. I shake-washed some of the oil in water and then dried the oil titration required only2.3ml of the lye solution.The wash water was ever so slightly acid. There seems to be water soluble acid(s) in this oil. While heating the oil, a friend commented on the smell. My wife came home and asked if we wereusing vinegar. Here's the questions: 1. Do restaurants either fry foods with vinegar in/on them? Do acids from frying cheeses (mozarella sticks) leach into the oil?Do restaurants clean their grills/friers w. vinegar? 2. Am I correct in assuming that these mysterious water-soluble acidswill be neutralized by the lye and will not contribute to soap formation? Thanks for listening, Tom ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
