[biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
I was reading Alek«s 2 stage method today, when it came upon me that maybe, to a certain degree, we could boost efficiency a little with a related method. It«s nothing out of this world, but still. Has anyone ever watched when stirring a solution with undissolved particles still in it, that because of centrifugal forces and velocity of the fluid, after neatly stirring in circles, the solute will start forming a galaxy shaped figure. This goes for any undissolved particles: maybe the thin foam on the surface of a cup of tea, or the undissolved sugar at the bottom... anything. When I say galaxy shaped it«s because that is what it looks like (and because the same physics rules surely apply to the formation of them)... i.e.: a sort of open spiral, with a core that spiraling tentacles which all seem to point out following a curved path. Sort of as if you held an octupus from above, and slightly rotated his head with his tentacles still on the ground: from up top you«d see the head (core) and the spiraling tentacles. But enough about that (I hope my explanation is not too far fetched). We all know now that the WVO/methoxide reaction is an equilibrium reaction, which can attain a considerable efficiency, but does not reach completion. We have also said that in an equilibrium reaction, removing some of the products of the reaction displaces the reaction twards the products« side, thus forming a higher quantity of them (and this is useful when working with any eq. reaction). Last but not least, we all know how un-homely and $$$ a centrifuge machine can be. When you stirr your Biodiesel, a great portion will appear in a visible form. That is, if you start from 1lt WVO and 200 ml Methoxide, maybe you«ll get, say, 200 ml of untreated glycerin once you pass the settling stage (don«t qote me on that number... I«m using it to quantify my explanation). Probably after the 50 minutes mix you«ll already have at least 100 ml settling quicky at the bottom, and you«ll have to wait for the settling stage to get the other 100 ml out of the BD mixture. Now, if you use a circular container, as a stainless steel bucket (for my small batches, I use a satinless steel ice bucket), and you mix with an electric stirrer (I use a 9V motor with a steel coat hanger molded into something that resembles a rod with a small hoop at the end), and after that you try to form a deep vortex (still never allowing the vortex to reach the tip of the stirrer and forming trillions of unwanted bubbles), then you«ll get the mixture flowing in a circular motion. The glycerin that visibly separates after 50 minutes of stirring will probably be located just below the stirrer, in the center of the bucket, right at the bottom, just as in the cup of tea. If you placed a little tap (a hose epoxi-ed to the bucket and secured closed with a clamp), then, while stirring fast enough to make the fluid move in a circular matter, but slow enough to let this motion flow uniformly, you could take these 100 ml of glycerin out of the bucket, and allow the reaction to continue producing some more BD (and glyc). You could meanwhile separate the glycerin from any trespassing BD, and throw this small portion of BD back in again while you maintain the reaction for a bit longer, maybe 40 minutes more. I«ve still not tried this, but if there was any more settled glyc while stirring in the secnd stage, you could even perform a third stage, removing this newly formed glyc. The spiral galaxy forms because as the physics laws for circular motion tell us, the liquid moving far away from the center of rotation rotates at an angular velocity equal to that of the liquid close to the center, but covers a greater distance in the same time, so actually, it«s moving much faster than the liquid at the center. This is the principle of most separators used in the industry. At lower velocities, the particles settle. A spec of sand will only remain airborne at a certain air velocity, below which it will fall down. In the BG/Glyc system, the glycerin is denser so it sinks to the bottom, and behaves as the spec of sand jest described. In the periphery, far away from the center of the bucket, the mixer makes the fluid move quickly, but in the center (just below the stirrer), velocity drops and so, any decanted glycerin will tend to star gathering up near the center og the bucket and ath the bottom, fomring the spiral galaxy shape described (or at least following this pattern... various factor many times make this shape not so obvious). Sorry for the extent of this post. I hope someone tries this and sees how it works. If it really does, it could represent a great time saving (regarding Alek«s two stage method). Anyway, it is more complicated than Alek«s method and might require practice... if it really works. I recall having seen some glycerin just after I stopped stirring. This would be the moment to tap the glyc, and then continue
Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that is required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away, it's basically out of the picture. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
This is actually a very good idea. It's used in some very sophisticated biochemical production processes. You might look into a chemical engineering unit operations text for further development. Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/01/2002 11:18 AM Please respond to biofuel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR) Subject:[biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?) I was reading Alek«s 2 stage method today, when it came upon me that maybe, to a certain degree, we could boost efficiency a little with a related method. It«s nothing out of this world, but still. Has anyone ever watched when stirring a solution with undissolved particles still in it, that because of centrifugal forces and velocity of the fluid, after neatly stirring in circles, the solute will start forming a galaxy shaped figure. This goes for any undissolved particles: maybe the thin foam on the surface of a cup of tea, or the undissolved sugar at the bottom... anything. When I say galaxy shaped it«s because that is what it looks like (and because the same physics rules surely apply to the formation of them)... i.e.: a sort of open spiral, with a core that spiraling tentacles which all seem to point out following a curved path. Sort of as if you held an octupus from above, and slightly rotated his head with his tentacles still on the ground: from up top you«d see the head (core) and the spiraling tentacles. But enough about that (I hope my explanation is not too far fetched). We all know now that the WVO/methoxide reaction is an equilibrium reaction, which can attain a considerable efficiency, but does not reach completion. We have also said that in an equilibrium reaction, removing some of the products of the reaction displaces the reaction twards the products« side, thus forming a higher quantity of them (and this is useful when working with any eq. reaction). Last but not least, we all know how un-homely and $$$ a centrifuge machine can be. When you stirr your Biodiesel, a great portion will appear in a visible form. That is, if you start from 1lt WVO and 200 ml Methoxide, maybe you«ll get, say, 200 ml of untreated glycerin once you pass the settling stage (don«t qote me on that number... I«m using it to quantify my explanation). Probably after the 50 minutes mix you«ll already have at least 100 ml settling quicky at the bottom, and you«ll have to wait for the settling stage to get the other 100 ml out of the BD mixture. Now, if you use a circular container, as a stainless steel bucket (for my small batches, I use a satinless steel ice bucket), and you mix with an electric stirrer (I use a 9V motor with a steel coat hanger molded into something that resembles a rod with a small hoop at the end), and after that you try to form a deep vortex (still never allowing the vortex to reach the tip of the stirrer and forming trillions of unwanted bubbles), then you«ll get the mixture flowing in a circular motion. The glycerin that visibly separates after 50 minutes of stirring will probably be located just below the stirrer, in the center of the bucket, right at the bottom, just as in the cup of tea. If you placed a little tap (a hose epoxi-ed to the bucket and secured closed with a clamp), then, while stirring fast enough to make the fluid move in a circular matter, but slow enough to let this motion flow uniformly, you could take these 100 ml of glycerin out of the bucket, and allow the reaction to continue producing some more BD (and glyc). You could meanwhile separate the glycerin from any trespassing BD, and throw this small portion of BD back in again while you maintain the reaction for a bit longer, maybe 40 minutes more. I«ve still not tried this, but if there was any more settled glyc while stirring in the secnd stage, you could even perform a third stage, removing this newly formed glyc. The spiral galaxy forms because as the physics laws for circular motion tell us, the liquid moving far away from the center of rotation rotates at an angular velocity equal to that of the liquid close to the center, but covers a greater distance in the same time, so actually, it«s moving much faster than the liquid at the center. This is the principle of most separators used in the industry. At lower velocities, the particles settle. A spec of sand will only remain airborne at a certain air velocity, below which it will fall down. In the BG/Glyc system, the glycerin is denser so it sinks to the bottom, and behaves as the spec of sand jest described. In the periphery, far away from the center of the bucket, the mixer makes the fluid move quickly, but in the center (just below the stirrer), velocity drops and so, any decanted glycerin will tend to star gathering up near the center og the bucket and ath the bottom, fomring the spiral galaxy shape described (or at least following this pattern... various factor many times
Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
This is correct. I guess centrifugal separation would be a better idea for continuous processing, as it would allow fresh feed to be introduced. Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/01/2002 11:01 AM Please respond to biofuel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR) Subject:Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?) I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that is required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away, it's basically out of the picture. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
Sounds logical, (anyway I don«t know if the term phase really applies here). But it sounds unreasonable to believe the reaction taking place in the WVO/BD/MeOH layer will have a way of knowing if the layer og glycerin belw is 1cm, 2cm or a mile deep. I need to go back to over my books for this one. We need hard references for the displacement of the reaction how to-s. If what you point is right, then centrifugating the mixture while processing (just to gather the glycerine together) should be enough, without havin to tap it out... assuming you can afford a centrifugue. And if this principle is right, there«s another implication: In Alek«s 2 stage method, simply stopping the reaction at 3/4 vol methoxide, and adding the remaining 1/4 the day after in the same mixture (without separating the glycerin) would be OK... and this is something important because each time you separate the glyc from the BD you might be discarding the layer in between (unless you store these layers for further processings and then separate and gather up all the leftovers) Am I being clear here? I think not. The point is that in the traditional 2 stage method, after the first stage you separate the glycerin and remove it, taking along with it some fine interphase layer of BD with it. But if the assumtion yuo mentioned is right, there«d be no need for this and you could simply reheat, proceed with stage 2 (adding the remaining 1/4 MeOH) and finishing the reaction, and so you«d avoid removing the glycerin (together with avoiding the drawback of removing the small interphase layer of BD for every syage) just to remaove the whole lot of glycerin after the last stage. Regards, Christian - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?) I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that is required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away, it's basically out of the picture. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
ANYWAY: 1.- Le Chatelier«s Principle: the position of equilibrium always shifts in such a direction that eases the tension applied on the system 2.- Chemical reactions DO NOT END in the equilibrium, but rather it is at this point where the speed of the reacion in one way and the other are equal. This means that in the equilibrium, there is as much glycerin and BD combining to produce MeOH and WVO as there is WVO and MeOH combining to produce glycerin and BD. If you take this into consideration, then I figure you can say that removing the glycerin to a bucket six feet away is the only way in which you can favour the equilibrium towards the products side, «cause if there still is an interfase between glycerin and BD/WVO, you will still have amounts of glyc/BD in the interfase of the liquids combining to form more WVO/MeOH. What I still can«t explain is how the amount of (not the presence of) glycerin may favour the reaction towards one side or the other. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?) I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that is required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away, it's basically out of the picture. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
You'll be removing some methanol too, Christian, don't forget. Which version of Aleks's method are you using? The updated version has quite a few changes, and one of them is that the glyc isn't removed after the acid stage, but it is progressively removed during the second stage (if your processor permits). Thankyou for explaining the spiral galaxy in my coffee, I always wondered how it got there without a Big Bang. No, seriously, nice explanation, you can watch it forming and see some basic principle at work, nice to have it explained. Very interested to know if it leads to a process improvement, that would be great, and a nice story to tell too. Best Keith Sounds logical, (anyway I don«t know if the term phase really applies here). But it sounds unreasonable to believe the reaction taking place in the WVO/BD/MeOH layer will have a way of knowing if the layer og glycerin belw is 1cm, 2cm or a mile deep. I need to go back to over my books for this one. We need hard references for the displacement of the reaction how to-s. If what you point is right, then centrifugating the mixture while processing (just to gather the glycerine together) should be enough, without havin to tap it out... assuming you can afford a centrifugue. And if this principle is right, there«s another implication: In Alek«s 2 stage method, simply stopping the reaction at 3/4 vol methoxide, and adding the remaining 1/4 the day after in the same mixture (without separating the glycerin) would be OK... and this is something important because each time you separate the glyc from the BD you might be discarding the layer in between (unless you store these layers for further processings and then separate and gather up all the leftovers) Am I being clear here? I think not. The point is that in the traditional 2 stage method, after the first stage you separate the glycerin and remove it, taking along with it some fine interphase layer of BD with it. But if the assumtion yuo mentioned is right, there«d be no need for this and you could simply reheat, proceed with stage 2 (adding the remaining 1/4 MeOH) and finishing the reaction, and so you«d avoid removing the glycerin (together with avoiding the drawback of removing the small interphase layer of BD for every syage) just to remaove the whole lot of glycerin after the last stage. Regards, Christian - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?) I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that is required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away, it's basically out of the picture. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
Thaks for the compliment. Anyhow, I just made a mini 1 lt batch and repeating the BD preparation processs I«m seeing the glyc first produced still needs a couple of minutes to settle gather up at the bottom. More miportant still, I had also forgotten the methoxide mixed in it and would be removed if I took away the glyc. -thanks for the reminder-. I think we won«t be seeing how spiral galaxies influence the BD manufacture process for now. Well, it takes many failures to get to a good improvement. Anyway it was worth the chat. Greetings, Christian - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?) You'll be removing some methanol too, Christian, don't forget. Which version of Aleks's method are you using? The updated version has quite a few changes, and one of them is that the glyc isn't removed after the acid stage, but it is progressively removed during the second stage (if your processor permits). Thankyou for explaining the spiral galaxy in my coffee, I always wondered how it got there without a Big Bang. No, seriously, nice explanation, you can watch it forming and see some basic principle at work, nice to have it explained. Very interested to know if it leads to a process improvement, that would be great, and a nice story to tell too. Best Keith Sounds logical, (anyway I don«t know if the term phase really applies here). But it sounds unreasonable to believe the reaction taking place in the WVO/BD/MeOH layer will have a way of knowing if the layer og glycerin belw is 1cm, 2cm or a mile deep. I need to go back to over my books for this one. We need hard references for the displacement of the reaction how to-s. If what you point is right, then centrifugating the mixture while processing (just to gather the glycerine together) should be enough, without havin to tap it out... assuming you can afford a centrifugue. And if this principle is right, there«s another implication: In Alek«s 2 stage method, simply stopping the reaction at 3/4 vol methoxide, and adding the remaining 1/4 the day after in the same mixture (without separating the glycerin) would be OK... and this is something important because each time you separate the glyc from the BD you might be discarding the layer in between (unless you store these layers for further processings and then separate and gather up all the leftovers) Am I being clear here? I think not. The point is that in the traditional 2 stage method, after the first stage you separate the glycerin and remove it, taking along with it some fine interphase layer of BD with it. But if the assumtion yuo mentioned is right, there«d be no need for this and you could simply reheat, proceed with stage 2 (adding the remaining 1/4 MeOH) and finishing the reaction, and so you«d avoid removing the glycerin (together with avoiding the drawback of removing the small interphase layer of BD for every syage) just to remaove the whole lot of glycerin after the last stage. Regards, Christian - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?) I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that is required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away, it's basically out of the picture. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
