Re: [biofuel] Stoichiometric values
I can«t send HTML on this list, please make a list of those who would want the mentioned table of FA content of different oils, and I«ll send it to your personal email (off-list) please send your request (for this particular table) to [EMAIL PROTECTED] today. Regards, Christian Hey, Christian, that's great! Right, here comes my email, thanks! Regards Keith snip Could we figure out a table for the most common oils? Say soy, rapeseed/canola, corn, sunflower, cottonseed, peanut, olive, coconut, palm, tallow. That would be really useful. We'd need to know the FA breakdown of each, SG etc. There are some figures here for the main Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Stoichiometric values
Hi Christian, Ken and Ken, Juan and all This is all very interesting. First, Ken from the Phillipines, personally I didn't come up with anything much, except maybe saying use more (I usually use 22%). The stoichiometric value for methanol is generally put at 12.5% or 13% by volume, and I guess the 20% comes from that. Some people say you need more excess for full conversion, up to 25% total, others use 30% or even more, for tallow eg, others yet say using more than 20% total is generally a waste. The results from using 20% (and good practices) are generally good. So we should add to that: ... for most feedstocks, in most cases. Christian says the stoichiometric value for methanol of sunflower oil is lower, 11%. For coconut oil Christian gets a value of 17.44%; using Christian's SG figures Ken's 96g MeOH per 665g oil comes to 16.79% (according to this calculator at least). Anyway, rather more than 13%. What else would this apply to? I guess palm oil, tallow would also need more methanol, any others? - and any idea how much? Hydrogenated stuff too maybe? Could we figure out a table for the most common oils? Say soy, rapeseed/canola, corn, sunflower, cottonseed, peanut, olive, coconut, palm, tallow. That would be really useful. We'd need to know the FA breakdown of each, SG etc. There are some figures here for the main FAs: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/fatsoils/fatsoils2.html#2-2 Slightly different to Ken's for coconut though, and not for all the most common oils. Is the 3.5g per litre of catalyst, which is also put as low as 3.1 or higher than 4, also specific to oil type? Best wishes Keith Ken from Phillipines writes: in short there is around 1.74 moles of glycerine for every 1000 grams of refined coconut oil. From here i would need 5.22 moles of methanol or 210 ml of methanol. The receipe in journey to forever says to use 200 ml of methanol for every 1000 ml of oil and they say that has alot of excess already. So this is my dilema, are my calculations wrong. I wonder how Keith and the rest came up with the prescribed volume for methanol. The 200 ml per liter of oil is a little low for good conversion, even for the oils typically used over here, like soy and canola. It would be very low for coconut, which has a much lower molecular weight (i.e., one liter of coconut oil is more moles than one liter of soy oil, and therefore needs more moles of methanol to transesterify). I get a MW of about 665 for coconut oil (the whole molecule, with the glycerol). So stoich. for methanol would be 96g MeOH per 665g oil, and I'd recommend twice that (100% excess) for best conversion. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Stoichiometric values
I can«t send HTML on this list, please make a list of those who would want the mentioned table of FA content of different oils, and I«ll send it to your personal email (off-list) please send your request (for this particular table) to [EMAIL PROTECTED] today. Regards, Christian snip Could we figure out a table for the most common oils? Say soy, rapeseed/canola, corn, sunflower, cottonseed, peanut, olive, coconut, palm, tallow. That would be really useful. We'd need to know the FA breakdown of each, SG etc. There are some figures here for the main __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Stoichiometric values
Ken from Phillipines writes: in short there is around 1.74 moles of glycerine for every 1000 grams of refined coconut oil. From here i would need 5.22 moles of methanol or 210 ml of methanol. The receipe in journey to forever says to use 200 ml of methanol for every 1000 ml of oil and they say that has alot of excess already. So this is my dilema, are my calculations wrong. I wonder how Keith and the rest came up with the prescribed volume for methanol. The 200 ml per liter of oil is a little low for good conversion, even for the oils typically used over here, like soy and canola. It would be very low for coconut, which has a much lower molecular weight (i.e., one liter of coconut oil is more moles than one liter of soy oil, and therefore needs more moles of methanol to transesterify). I get a MW of about 665 for coconut oil (the whole molecule, with the glycerol). So stoich. for methanol would be 96g MeOH per 665g oil, and I'd recommend twice that (100% excess) for best conversion. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Stoichiometric values (to Ken from Phillipines)
I there any way to transesterfy the Glycerin? It has 3 -OH groups I would think that you could esterfy with Acetic acid. If you esterfied all 3 -OH groups you would have a C9 hydrocarbon with 6 oxygens. Talk about an oxygenated fuel. I think that a C-9 is close to the size of gasoline fuels...? Could this be a oxygenated additive for gasoline engines. Maybe 3-5% Biodiesal would also help to lower emissions and make up for the BTU loss when you add the esterfied glycerin to the tank. Just thinking (typing) out loud. T -Original Message- From: Christian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 10:43 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Stoichiometric values (to Ken from Phillipines) Hi Ken, I«ve had my doubts on the stoichiometric values since a beginning (not that they were wrong or anything, I was just curious), but I never had the tiem to write it down on paper. We could briefly try it here, assuming you«ve got the percentages of FA in coconut oil is as you«ve described: The corresponding fatty acids are: 46% C12H24O 18% C14H28O 10% C16H32O 4% C18H36O 6% C18H34O But for each FA chain on the glyceol, there is one H lost in the esterification, together with the OH group of the glycerin. We«ll assume no FFA. So the ester chain in the triglicerid will be as follows: 46% C12H23O = 183 g 18% C14H27O = 211 g 10% C16H31O = 239 g 4% C18H35O = 267 g 6% C18H33O = 261 g And the glycerol bit will weigh: CH2-CH-CH2 = 41 g I suppose we can the say that 1 Mole of WVO (Coconut) will have: 41g + (0.46x183 + 0.18x211 + 0.1x239 + 0.04x267 + 0.06x261) = 213.4 g Methanol weighs: CH3OH = 32 g/mol Glyc-R-R«-R«« --(CH3ONa)-- Glyc + ROCH3 + R«OCH3 + R««OCH3 + Na(+) But we could assume that one mole of WVO will require one mole of Methanol, as the methyl group in it is exactly what will join the FA in the transesterification So every 213.4g of WVO will require 32g of Methanol Coconut oil«s density at 20¼C is close to 0.919 g/ml (or so I read on the internet). So 213.4 g (1 mole) will equal 232.201 ml. On the other side, the density for methanol is 0.79, so 32g of methanol represent 40.5063 ml. So, 40.5063 ml in 232.201 ml represent 17.44 The proposed value (M. Pelly«s recipe) is 20% by volume. The value we got to here is 17.44% That«s only 2.56% shorter than the proposed value. The 20% value is useful to push the reaction towards the products side, anyway, you should be able to use a minimum of 17.4% methanol (in volume) to transesterify your WVO. I use sunflower oil, and my % is even lower (close to 11% in vol). Hope to have been of help. Best wishes, Christian Lenoir - Original Message - From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 12:39 PM Subject: Re: Stoichiometric Balance of methanol vs glycerine Hello Christian, First of all i want to thank you for your posts. They have been very helpful and informative. I am Ken and from the Philippines. I have been making BD for a year now thanks to this group. I use what i make because the price of BD is not competitive to regular diesel. I was checking the stoichiometric balance of methanol to glycerine when i felt something might be wrong and hope maybe you can clear it up for me. In our reaction we need 3 moles of methanol to every mole of glycerine to be replaced right? or 1 mole of methanol for every mole of fatty acid(be it lauric, myristic, stearic et al). I use coconut oil and the data for coconut oil is as follows C12:0 - 46% C14:0 - 18% C16:0 - 10% C18:0 - 4% C18:1 - 6% in short there is around 1.74 moles of glycerine for every 1000 grams of refined coconut oil. From here i would need 5.22 moles of methanol or 210 ml of methanol. The receipe in journey to forever says to use 200 ml of methanol for every 1000 ml of oil and they say that has alot of excess already. So this is my dilema, are my calculations wrong. I wonder how Keith and the rest came up with the prescribed volume for methanol. Thanks and Best Regards Ken __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [biofuel] Stoichiometric values (to Ken from Phillipines)
I ca«t be too sure on my answer, but wouldn«t it bee too dense? First of all, it wouldn«t be a transesterification, as the transesterification implies: ROH + R«COOR«« -- R««OH + R«COOR i.e., switching the carbon chains between an ester and an alcohol. You«d be esterifying the glycerin: C3H5(OH)3 + RCOOH -- C3H5(OCOR)3 + H2O Thus forming a triglicerid, the main constituent of vegetable oils, only that in vegetable oils the fatty acid chains have 14, 16, 18, 20, (etc) carbons, plus insaturations. Acetic acid cas only 2 carbons, and would yield: C3H5(OCOCH3)3 (triacetato de glicerilo, in spanish) I suppose this substance would have properties similar to oils in some aspects, but it lacks double bonds, so it would probably be solid. The fatty acid chains extend in a linear pattern, evidently in zig-zag, due to the tetrahedic bonds, so these molecules fit weel into one another. The double bonds in oils make the carbon chains crooked, so molecules have a harder time regrouping into an ordered consistency (solid state). Therefore, more insaturations usually make it more difficult for the molecules to pack. So, the bottom line is: more insaturations reduce the fusion point of greases oils. No saturations: /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\COOH The structure you propose: CH2/\/\ CH/\/\ CH2/\/\ Seems to me would solid or of difficult flow. (I«m not an expert in this). Anyway, don«t let these words bring down your morale. I«m not an expert, as I«ve said, and it would be good to try this out to see what the results are. All the best, Christian - Original Message - From: Mccall Tom WP US [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 2:09 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Stoichiometric values (to Ken from Phillipines) I there any way to transesterfy the Glycerin? It has 3 -OH groups I would think that you could esterfy with Acetic acid. If you esterfied all 3 -OH groups you would have a C9 hydrocarbon with 6 oxygens. Talk about an oxygenated fuel. I think that a C-9 is close to the size of gasoline fuels...? Could this be a oxygenated additive for gasoline engines. Maybe 3-5% Biodiesal would also help to lower emissions and make up for the BTU loss when you add the esterfied glycerin to the tank. Just thinking (typing) out loud. T -Original Message- From: Christian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 10:43 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Stoichiometric values (to Ken from Phillipines) Hi Ken, I«ve had my doubts on the stoichiometric values since a beginning (not that they were wrong or anything, I was just curious), but I never had the tiem to write it down on paper. We could briefly try it here, assuming you«ve got the percentages of FA in coconut oil is as you«ve described: The corresponding fatty acids are: 46% C12H24O 18% C14H28O 10% C16H32O 4% C18H36O 6% C18H34O But for each FA chain on the glyceol, there is one H lost in the esterification, together with the OH group of the glycerin. We«ll assume no FFA. So the ester chain in the triglicerid will be as follows: 46% C12H23O = 183 g 18% C14H27O = 211 g 10% C16H31O = 239 g 4% C18H35O = 267 g 6% C18H33O = 261 g And the glycerol bit will weigh: CH2-CH-CH2 = 41 g I suppose we can the say that 1 Mole of WVO (Coconut) will have: 41g + (0.46x183 + 0.18x211 + 0.1x239 + 0.04x267 + 0.06x261) = 213.4 g Methanol weighs: CH3OH = 32 g/mol Glyc-R-R«-R«« --(CH3ONa)-- Glyc + ROCH3 + R«OCH3 + R««OCH3 + Na(+) But we could assume that one mole of WVO will require one mole of Methanol, as the methyl group in it is exactly what will join the FA in the transesterification So every 213.4g of WVO will require 32g of Methanol Coconut oil«s density at 20¼C is close to 0.919 g/ml (or so I read on the internet). So 213.4 g (1 mole) will equal 232.201 ml. On the other side, the density for methanol is 0.79, so 32g of methanol represent 40.5063 ml. So, 40.5063 ml in 232.201 ml represent 17.44 The proposed value (M. Pelly«s recipe) is 20% by volume. The value we got to here is 17.44% That«s only 2.56% shorter than the proposed value. The 20% value is useful to push the reaction towards the products side, anyway, you should be able to use a minimum of 17.4% methanol (in volume) to transesterify your WVO. I use sunflower oil, and my % is even lower (close to 11% in vol). Hope to have been of help. Best wishes, Christian Lenoir - Original Message - From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 12:39 PM Subject: Re: Stoichiometric Balance of methanol vs glycerine Hello Christian, First of all i want to thank you for your posts. They have been very helpful and informative. I am Ken and from the Philippines. I have been making BD for a year now thanks to this group. I use what i make because the price of BD is not competitive to regular diesel. I was checking the stoichiometric balance of methanol to glycerine when i felt something
Re: [biofuel] Stoichiometric values
Thanks Christian and Ken, No wonder i was getting only 90% yield. And also i was using the two stage method so that meant i was running it very lean too. This clarifies everything. Thanks Ken snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
