Re: [swinog] SwiNOG #30 - 4th November 2016 - (Calling for Papers)

[Roger]

But if we only have java developers here who usually encode a boolean 
into a UTF16 string into XML over SOAP over HTTP over a 10G fiber 
link, then it would be a waste of time of course.



you gona get hated by java  programmer,
but for me i could say only  FULL ACK! :D




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Re: [swinog] SwiNOG #30 - 4th November 2016 - (Calling for Papers)

[Andreas Fink]

> Am 14.09.2016 um 18:33 schrieb Jeroen Massar :
> 
> On 2016-09-14 18:13, Andreas Fink wrote:
>> I could do a presentation on the SCTP networking protocol which combines
>> some features of TCP and UDP and offers some unique features neither TCP
>> nor UDP have.
> 
> Is there any tool that actually uses SCTP ? :)

I'm using it day in day out since 15 years. And theres no alternative to it for 
me. The Sigtran family (SS7 signalling over IP) requires it mandatory. Theres 
no other option there. SCTP was mainly developed because signalling over IP 
needed reliable multipath support. So protocols which 100% depend on SCTP are 
at least M2UA, M2PA, M3UA, SUA, IUA.

> IPFIX is supposed to use it, but everybody still sends over UDP, rare
> support for SCTP (except for purists like me who did implement it and
> then also never really used it).

Great. why did you not use it? UDP is not a reliable datagram service. SCTP is.

> WebRTC is supposed to go partially over SCTP, never seen it actually used.

WebRTC requires it (but can work around by encapsulating it into UDP which just 
means more useless overhead).

> Apple chose to use Multipath TCP instead...

OS X has a implementation of SCTP since OS X  10.3.8. Its open source. Apple 
has not added it to the kernel (besides promising it many many many times) 
because it would mean changing their NAT & Firewall as well and as there is no 
user demand, they where too lazy and rather wanted to spend time on nice shiny 
guy stuff. The kext is kernel dependent due to a missing API to link in a 
layer4 protocol so every new version needs awaiting new kernel sources to be 
published and recompiling (10.12 however worked out of the box with 10.11 
sources). I have like 20 radars open with Apple about it (*big sight*).

Linux has SCTP built in since a long time. Solaris, has it. HP/UX has it. 
Windows I actually don't know.

Part of the problem is:  If desktops don't have it, then developers don't tend 
to use it. If developers don't want to use it, then the OS vendors dont tend to 
implement it.  This however also applies to other layer 4 transport protocol. 
Thats why everyone uses plain old TCP and UDP.

Also 10$ crap ADSL routers who don't understand how to properly implement NAT 
don't help either. Hopefully NAT will be a relict of the past soon due to IPv6 
(*cough cough*).

> The article on Wikipedia does not list much more:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_Control_Transmission_Protocol
> 
> Apparently some variant of SSH should support it, but no actual
> implementations mentioned there either.

Any application which uses TCP or UDP could be changed into using SCTP by a 
single line of code. (hint: IPPROTO_SCTP on socket()) However there are 
additional features which neither TCP or UDP have such as seamless adding 
removing IP's on a established session, Multipath support. stream multiplexing, 
concurrent establishment of a connection from both sides (think of tunnels for 
example) and others. From a developers point of view there's a lot in it, 
especially if you care about reliability. SCTP is proven, reliable, established 
and well supported in the Unix arena. Developers just have to know about that 
its there and it is useful for many things.

That's why I think the key is to let developers know that there's a cherry to 
be picked up. 
And I would be happy to present its benefits and features.

But if we only have java developers here who usually encode a boolean into a 
UTF16 string into XML over SOAP over HTTP over a 10G fiber link, then it would 
be a waste of time of course.


Andreas Fink


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Re: [swinog] SwiNOG #30 - 4th November 2016 - (Calling for Papers)

[Jeroen Massar]

On 2016-09-14 18:13, Andreas Fink wrote:
> I could do a presentation on the SCTP networking protocol which combines
> some features of TCP and UDP and offers some unique features neither TCP
> nor UDP have.

Is there any tool that actually uses SCTP ? :)

IPFIX is supposed to use it, but everybody still sends over UDP, rare
support for SCTP (except for purists like me who did implement it and
then also never really used it).

WebRTC is supposed to go partially over SCTP, never seen it actually used.

Apple chose to use Multipath TCP instead...

The article on Wikipedia does not list much more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_Control_Transmission_Protocol

Apparently some variant of SSH should support it, but no actual
implementations mentioned there either.

Greets,
 Jeroen



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Re: [swinog] SwiNOG #30 - 4th November 2016 - (Calling for Papers)

[Andreas Fink]

I could do a presentation on the SCTP networking protocol which combines some 
features of TCP and UDP and offers some unique features neither TCP nor UDP 
have.


> Am 14.09.2016 um 18:02 schrieb Simon Ryf :
> 
> Dear SwiNOG supporter,
> 
> this is the official Call for Paper email. Please send your proposal to
> swinog-core (at) swinog.ch or directly to me.
> The 30th meeting of the Swiss Network Operators Group (SwiNOG) will be held
> in Berne on top of the Gurten on November 4th 2016.
> 
> 
> Important Dates for SwiNOG#30
> ---
> 17.08.2016 Announcement of Meeting
> 05.09.2016 Registration opens
> 14.09.2016 Call for Papers
> 16.10.2016 Call for Papers closing
> 23.10.2016 Final publication of agenda
> 27.10.2016 Registration closes
> 01.11.2016 Deadline for all slides
> 04.11.2016 Meeting day
> 
> 
> Topics for Presentations/Talks
> ---
> The number and length of presentations per session is not fixed, although
> due to time constraints we would prefer the length of the presentations to
> be between 5 to 45 minutes.
> Here is a non-exhaustive list of typical SwiNOG meeting topics:
> - Security - DDOS Mitigation - AntiSpam
> - IPv6
> - Open Source tools
> - International view of the internet (incidents, outages, measurements)
> - Routing
> - Server applications (DNS, Web, etc.)
> - Legal issues (BÜPF, etc.)
> - Telecommunication politics (Net Neutrality, Incumbent monopoly, etc.)
> 
> -> PLEASE feel free to talk to us about any kind of topic and
> collaboration!!!
>   You can always start a discussion on the list - I'm sure people join in.
> 
> Language of Slides and Talks
> ---
> The whole day will be held in English, therefore we kindly ask you to
> produce your presentation in English.
> 
> Submission Guidelines
> ---
> All submissions must have a strong technical bias and must not be solely
> promotional for your employer.
> Please remember that your presentations should be suitable for a target
> audience of technicians from varied backgrounds, working for companies whose
> sizes may vary considerably.
> To submit a proposal for a presentation, we request that you provide the
> following information to :
> 
> * the name of the presenter (and if applicable your affiliation)
> * a working email address
> * the name and number of the topic which will contain the presentation
> * the title of the presentation
> * its expected length (in minutes)
> * a short abstract of the presentation (so we know what it is about)
> 
> We also welcome suggestions for specific presentations which you feel would
> be valuable to the SwiNOG community.
> Please be aware that your presentation will be published on the SwiNOG
> website after the event. We can publish modified slides if requested - it
> might be that some confidential data will be presented by you which are not
> intended for publication on the internet.
> 
> Greetings,
> Simon Ryf
> SwiNOG Core Team
> 
> 
> General Information (SwiNOG Community)
> ---
> The Swiss Network Operators Group (SwiNOG) is an informal group of people
> who are concerned with engineering and operation of the Swiss Internet.
> SwiNOG exists to enhance the quality of Internet services available in
> Switzerland. It does this by fostering the free exchange of technical ideas
> and information between different companies and organisations.
> SwiNOG is a community for professionals who are operating, designing or
> researching the Internet. It provides a technical forum where those working
> on, with and for the Internet can come together to solve problems with every
> aspect of their (net)work.
> The meeting is designed to provide an opportunity for the exchange of
> information among network operators, engineers, researchers and other
> professionals close to the network community.
> 
> More information about SwiNOG can be found at http://www.swinog.ch/,
> Facebook, Xing, 
> Information about the meeting will be published at
> http://www.swinog.ch/meetings/swinog30/ 
> 
> General Information (SwiNOG Organisation)
> ---
> The SwiNOG Organisation Association is a non-profit association under
> article 60 and further of the swiss civil law. It manages the SwiNOG
> community ressources (domain, web, mailing-lists, etc..) and organises
> SwiNOG meetings.
> 
> Contact:
> SwiNOG Organisation
> 8000 Zurich
> Switzerland
> 
> 
> 
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Andreas Fink
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