Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

On Aug 20, 2020, at 11:58 AM, pangoSE wrote: > ...I would go so far as to say that >> ignoring this problem with missing references makes the names in the >> whole database worthless to use and contribute to because it could just >> be random joe next door sitting on a late night and

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

See below PangoSE skrev: (20 augusti 2020 15:55:11 CEST) >It was certainly not a joke. The tags in OSM are IMO broken and cannot >handle the social complexity it tries to model. > >One of the biggest problems is missing references to on the ground >truth like e.g. images. >How would you e.g.

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Just caught up with this thread, & I'm unsure if it's a joke. If there are any problems/disagreements with names in OSM then surely the same problem occurs in Wikiland? DaveF. On 09/08/2020 09:25, pangoSE wrote: I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 19:05, Imre Samu wrote: > Wikidata is a graph database .. and there is a "known" scalability problem > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikidata/2019-June/013124.html That post discusses the SPARQL front end (the "Wikidata Query Service") specifically, and not

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

some info for the planning : > Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, most of the labels /names generated/transliterated by bots .. or imported from other databases ( GeoNames !! ) > better modeled, better referenced Wikidata: The Cathedral style ...

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

sent from a phone > On 9. Aug 2020, at 15:08, pangoSE wrote: > > To support and emphasize ground truth I think we should setup a service like > Wikimedia commons also to host verification images that proves how it looks > on the ground. I agree photos from the current on the ground

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

On Sun, 2020-08-09 at 09:04 -0400, James wrote: > Not to mention if someone wants to add a name for a new item/object, > does the user need to create a wikidata item on top of it? Will the > editor do it automatically? How does it pick the right one? Does it > offer a list to the user? This is

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Hi Martin Koppenhoefer skrev: (9 augusti 2020 15:00:21 CEST) > > >sent from a phone > >> On 9. Aug 2020, at 10:44, Mateusz Konieczny via talk > wrote: >> >> tagging name tag is a fundamental part of OSM tag, >> offloading it to a third party service is a mistake that will not >happen > > >+1,

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Yes. The data could be downloaded in bulk like osmand does today and can be easily parsed. We would of course have to split it into region or country sized files just like the planet files are today but thats trivial compared to integrating seamless support in the editors. Wikidata dumps to

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Not to mention if someone wants to add a name for a new item/object, does the user need to create a wikidata item on top of it? Will the editor do it automatically? How does it pick the right one? Does it offer a list to the user? This is going to make osm a massive turn off to new contributors on

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

sent from a phone > On 9. Aug 2020, at 10:44, Mateusz Konieczny via talk > wrote: > > tagging name tag is a fundamental part of OSM tag, > offloading it to a third party service is a mistake that will not happen +1, names are a fundamental part of OpenStreetMap, we must keep the decision

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Yeah this is probably not the best route forward, given that wikidata is so big and contains a lot of osm unrelated data. James skrev: (9 augusti 2020 14:31:57 CEST) >and if the solution is to download the data then download wikidata, >it's >even more clunky than the name tag itself > >On Sun.,

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Ok. I agree with that, there is nothing hindering OSM from hosting the wikibase instance on the same machine/cluster/whatever as the main osm database which btw. seems to lack a name. James skrev: (9 augusti 2020 14:49:36 CEST) >Network calls incur a performance hit. I didn't say it was

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Thanks  I actually tried searching for it before posting but did not find it. I accept the statement from Lydia closing it: "I've been thinking a lot about this. The prefixes Q, P, L, F, S, E and M are there to represent the concepts of Items, Properties, Lexemes, Forms, Senses, Entity Schemas

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Network calls incur a performance hit. I didn't say it was complicated. On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 8:46 a.m. pangoSE, wrote: > > I disagree. With (permanent) unique ids is trivial and the overhead is IMO > neglible. > > Its not rocket science to query an API endpoint from any programming >

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

I disagree. With (permanent) unique ids is trivial and the overhead is IMO neglible. Its not rocket science to query an API endpoint from any programming language. All our data consumers are already doing this. I made a simple map in a few hours that query both overpass and wikidata based

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

On 2020-08-09 14:33, pangoSE wrote: >> IIRC, Yuri already tried that when implementing Wikibase on our own >> wiki, and it turned out to be massively complicated, not to say not >> feasible at all. Didn't you follow that discussion back then? > > I was not aware. Link? > Its not a dealbreaker

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

and if the solution is to download the data then download wikidata, it's even more clunky than the name tag itself On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 8:29 a.m. Jeremy Harris, wrote: > On 09/08/2020 09:25, pangoSE wrote: > > I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating > names in

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Hi mmd skrev: (9 augusti 2020 13:47:43 CEST) >On 2020-08-09 13:05, pangoSE wrote: >> These are valid concerns. See my response to James. >> If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our >own >> wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/ > >Our own

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

On 09/08/2020 09:25, pangoSE wrote: > I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names > in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag. > Substantial changes will have to be made: > * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It > could probably be

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Not to mention the additional overhead of conflating two databases to get something essential like a name On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 7:57 a.m. Alan Mackie, wrote: > This seems like a bad idea. > > Name tags are generally very easy to verify on the ground. It is not > always as easy to tell if a

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

This seems like a bad idea. Name tags are generally very easy to verify on the ground. It is not always as easy to tell if a shop with a certain name belongs to a specific wikidata entry, especially in jurisdictions that are less litigious when it comes to trademarks. We also should not be doing

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

On 2020-08-09 13:05, pangoSE wrote: > These are valid concerns. See my response to James. > If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own > wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/ Our own Wiki.openstreetmap.org already has a wikibase installed. You're not

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

More than deprecating name=* to replace with Wikidata, it would be needed deprecating it in favour of name:=* and leaving to the client the decision of what language to render. It would partially solve the multilanguage issue... Stefano On Sun, 9 Aug 2020, 13:11 pangoSE, wrote: > These are

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

These are valid concerns. See my response to James. If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/ It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time. In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Also a valid concern worth pondering. I guess having a local snapshot of wikidata on an osm controlled server should fix that. Wikibase is free software so we can set up our own in the very unlikely case that no-one else does it. Note that both Facebook, Microsoft and Google are dependent on

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM mappers? or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly? Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by james2...@gmail.com: > is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist? > > On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m.

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist? On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, wrote: > I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating > names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag. > > The rationale is explained here: >

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Aug 9, 2020, 11:09 by pang...@riseup.net: > >"there is no such thing as an international name. Names are part of a > >language whih is part of a culture. They are not GIS objects and the > >osm datamodel does not handle this complexity well at all." > >> >> > >Are you aware that we have other

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

On 09/08/2020 09:42, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote: Aug 9, 2020, 10:25 by pang...@riseup.net : I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag. Absolutely no. tagging name tag is a

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

This is a valid concern. What I'm suggesting to solve that is to create a new property "OpenStreetMap name" that can hold names in multiple languages and every single one can be independently referenced. Cheers Simon Poole skrev: (9 augusti 2020 10:36:34 CEST) >The "names" in wikidata are

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Aug 9, 2020, 10:25 by pang...@riseup.net: > I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names > in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag. > Absolutely no. tagging name tag is a fundamental  part of OSM tag, offloading it to a third party service is a mistake that will

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

The "names" in wikidata are mostly the names of WP pages for the object in question and have little to do with actually existing names (as per the OSM definition) of places. It would be a massive drop in quality if we would do the proposed switch. Simon Am 09.08.2020 um 10:25 schrieb pangoSE: >

[OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag. The rationale is explained here: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655 This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM user will have to