database. But certainly a set of directions is itself a database, as anyone
who programmed LOGO knows.
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-law enforceability was of academic interest only and they had not
researched further.
It also does not have the concept of produced works.
It doesn't, no. I wonder whether a weaker but still compatible licence could be
made by adding additional 'at your option' provisions.
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is another matter.
I would also point out that the abbreviated form Ln, St, and so on can
be trivially derived from Lane and Street, but the reverse operation
is not so easy (St could be Saint). That argues for picking the form
with more information, if you have to pick one of them.
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by the share alike clause of the license.
That's a big presumption. I would have expected that remapping would be done as
a strictly 'clean room' operation, without looking at the existing CC-BY-SA data
at all, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
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to be published under CC-BY-SA in
parallel with ODbL.
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is already the legal
situation) then its text needs to be approved by the OSMF board and a
2/3 vote of active contributors.
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Is there a way to provide what UMP want by making a Produced Work (which could
be
public domain or CC) rather than a Derived Database?
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ODbL/DbCL or other licences.
This split would add some useful checks and balances - among other things it
would prevent control of the servers being used to force through licence
changes.
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the new node in same place as the old one, this hasn't really
achieved anything. At best, it has obscured the history a bit so it's no longer
quite so clear that the node was originally added by a CT-decliner.
Rather than going through this charade why not just add odbl=clean to the node?
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map
of the world, which was partly intended as a common upstream which
several map projects including OSM could take data from.)
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, but that does not mean they
can
somehow make exceptions to the licence. Could you give more details about what
particular permission is needed?
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they added, it's okay to have
that data in OSM?
Likewise, if some map company copied data from OSM into their proprietary map,
but said that they had verified it against independent sources, that would be
okay?
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really don't want to just give up and go home unless every possibility has
been
exhausted. It is not too late.
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until then.
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I think the test must be the same as for any other data which OSMF does not have
permission to use. If a mapper added a node by copying from Google Maps, but
then another mapper moved it to a different position using a permitted data
source, is it okay to keep that node in the database?
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its position
information is 'cleaned' somehow. The new position as often as not is
derived from the old position.
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, and that location data
is part of the OSM map. The next version of the node, even if its position
has been adjusted, is likely to be derived from this data.
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if mapping from
GPS plus an existing out-of-copyright map you may trace a way which is about
halfway between your GPS trace and what you see on the old map - since neither
of them by itself is entirely accurate. Doing this makes the new path derived
from both the old one and the new one.
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are not lawyers. So we have to use the
common-sense judgement of whether one piece of work builds on another.
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Sorry, I appreciate your taking the time to go through the arguments on this
but I think I have said all I have to say about node positions. I'll let others
decide whether what I wrote makes sense.
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be applied to such third-party-copyright situations going forward.
Originally it was promised that no big deletion would go ahead if it would cause
too much damage to the OSM data. Is that still the case and if so who is tasked
with deciding whether to pull the switch?
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than OSMF
is planning to. They continued to licence under the old licence and the new
one, at the user's option. That means that no downstream user who was using
Wikipedia before the changeover got cut off.
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such as Wikipedia must face the same issues.
It's hard to believe they need to get every contributor's permission in order
to do a licence upgrade. (Indeed the Wikipedia transition from GFDL to
GFDL-or-CC was done using an upgrade clause in the former licence.)
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the current licence, which
means CC-BY-SA - this was clarified a few months ago by the LWG I believe. Of
course in the majority of cases CT-able data is also ODbL-able.)
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it now, right?
Maybe so, but it's not shown by the usual CT status maps. odbl=clean (or
perhaps
dbcl=clean?) would be a further tag to add in addition to ct=clean.
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Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes:
Only recently a legal analysis was posted by Ed Avis that came to the
conclusion that while CC-BY-SA 2.0 may be fine for data, CTs really are
required
The legal analysis looked in detail into the question of how far copyright
applies to OSM map data
.
It's not necessarily a case of whether one licence is better than another,
because each may have their strengths and weaknesses for different users of the
data, particularly when it comes to being compatible with other share-alike
projects.
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to not having the water features at all.
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you to tag for the renderer and remove the
suffix from the data!
I think anyone looking at a map of Cambridge might have an idea that there is
a university there and that any colleges or academic-sounding buildings are
more likely than not to be part of it.
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version which does not
mention OSM by name, although the issues addressed are those relevant to our
project.
You can see the report at
http://membled.com/work/osm/Map_Project_Memo_public_FINAL.pdf
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from speaking to the two
attorneys is that it's pretty clear: the underlying data of the map falls within
copyright. If you like, I could send you the full report which addresses OSM
and the ODbL specifically?
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this but only if there is interest from the LWG or the OSMF
board.
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may wiggle through,
as with the exclusion of computer programs as such from patentability.)
In general I think that introducing the concept of database into licensing
causes more problems than it solves, and tends to muddle more than it clarifies,
but that's just my opinion.
--
Ed Avis e
where the underlying legal
situation is unclear.
More to the point, would it not be better to fix up ambiguities in a new version
of the ODbL? Migrating to it later would be pretty painless since the licence
is
forward-compatible.
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a small part of the picture, copyright being
at least as important (if the legal advice I got from Francis Davey relating to
European law is correct). Note that there is sui generis database right, and
separate from that there is database copyright. Database copyright is not owned
by the OSMF.
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is the same as the name in OSL and the geometry is similar,
although
split into two ways in OSM.
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in the check
http://ris.dev.openstreetmap.org/oslmusicalchairs/map?
zoom=18lat=51.52351lon=-0.1936layers=B0TTosl_id=491357view_mode=pseudorandom
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of 'London'
(depending on random rules about overlapping text labels) would be so offputting
I think it is worth paying some attention to what is currently rendered.
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as it is, and adding
more tightly-defined tags such as 'designated city status' or
population if they are wanted.
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cities are without having to remember
the rules about what place=city signifies in each individual country.
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the satnav).
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type of object. It
could apply to forests, seas, even some countries. I suppose it would be
tagged as a relation with two members (a way for the area and a node for the
centroid) and then tagging would be on the relation. Similar to what happens
now for multipolygons.
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can run the tool themselves to see that.
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they have never
visited. Instead of wasting time with dubious-quality Ordnance Survey maps why
don't we organize some mapping parties and community outreach to the penguins?
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popped up on this
list.
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you like to join in
a conference call with the legal team so you can put it to them directly?
I expect I could arrange this.
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Why not do what Wikipedia did and work together with the licence authors (in
this
case Creative Commons and Open Data Commons) to provide an automatic upgrade
clause? Then nothing need be deleted.
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that would improve it for OSM (even though, in my view, version 2 of
CC-BY-SA has served us well so far). More broadly, having two separate copyleft
silos for open data can't be in anyone's interest and we should try to get
compatibility or a merger between the CC and ODC share-alike licences.
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Hasn't it happened in the past that large numbers of Cloudmade employees have
joined the OSMF? That didn't cause the organization to be somehow subverted,
and neither will people who work for Skobbler (or Microsoft, or whoever).
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contentious OSMF functions like providing funding
to keep the servers running or organizing SoTM.
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by every contributor. (Or else, a 2/3
vote of active contributors would allow 'ODbL with clarifications' to be used
as the official licence.) It's all a bit muddy.
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with this (as with everything else you wrote) but some
prefer a more aggressive approach.
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to the LWG?
If the answer is no, and the LWG is authorized to make statements such as an
interpretation of the contributor terms without a separate say-so from the OSMF
board, then it would be good to make that explicit.
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better support for editing ways as a group to cope
with the reality that things tend to get chopped into smaller and smaller bits
as the map improves.
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to the
interpretation posted on the talk-gb mailing list'?
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comment, to
provide some evidence that I found it independently and didn't just copy off
Google.
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that copying
the names from the OS map is just 'phase 1', with the next and much more time-
consuming step being to go out and resurvey to make sure.
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be the existing OSM map, and it could
just be used directly with CT/ODbL.
The fact that this is not happening shows that, as generally believed, it is not
possible to accept CC-BY-SA licensed data under a CT/ODbL regime.
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for those using your
data).
The Creative Commons project also has several licences which they encourage as
being suitable for data as well as for creative works.
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database and
tools needed.
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also consider releasing as public domain.
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still, a clarifying paragraph added to the CTs themselves) might clear up a lot
of non-acceptances.
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themselves?
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they were (and this was before
we had changeset comments).
If it's the case that geodata is not covered by copyright (the main
justification
for the licence change), and therefore CC-BY-SA is not enforceable, you need
not worry.
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I don't have enough free time right now to set up a mirror but I am more than
willing to chip in if it's merely a question of paying to upgrade bandwidth
available on a hosting solution like S3. I know this isn't a big contribution
but it might be something.
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Note that David Ellams is one step ahead and has already created some video
tutorials on how to use Potlatch 2.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Video_tutorials
That's only one piece of the puzzle.
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and the cycle map. This is not merely tagging for the renderer, since the
place is not really a 'suburb' if I understand you correctly.
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the area was pretty
much done, I concentrated my mapping trips on places further afield.
If having an area complete means that a contributor can spend his or
her time on other parts of the map which also need attention, that
must be a good thing.
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doesn't have a vibrant community either.
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: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.region.gb
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with a single road? For example where a
single street has multiple different duff names from one or more
different sources, ie OS Locator and Navteq both have different wrong
names.
Again could you explain where you're coming from with Navteq, etc?
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that
clear - and if there is a need to tag 'commonly used but wrong name' for a
street we use something else like incorrect_name.
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, we don't need to worry about not:name tags that might have been added for
Navteq, because there won't be any.
Thanks again (to you and your employees) for your work on these comparisons.
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ending up duplicating mistakes in the OS data, we need tools which show
which parts of the map come from OS. ITO's map layer
http://www.itoworld.com/product/data/ito_map/main?view=117 is an example.
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would then concentrate mostly on roads with no
name
at all, but also take a moment to verify the OS-sourced names as I passed those
roads. I think this would be more efficient and produce a better map faster
than
if we ignore the OS names entirely.
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, for example, and would not be
impressed by their sat-nav device loading up Potlatch and telling them to edit)
and yet keep the traditional setup for mappers where 'no name = go and visit'?
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attention where necessary and not just dumped from a
great height onto the map.
In this context I don't believe anyone is advocating the replacement of any
bits of the existing OSM map with OS data.
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.
That assumes that the OS licence is compatible with the new contributor terms,
which (as discussed at recent LWG meeting) is still not settled!
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of my head and apply
to London only.)
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contributors.
Of course the OSMF would never do anything like that...
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apologize for the unwarranted snarkiness.
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that, it would be
wonderful to publish it now and clean up the whole mess. (It would also greatly
help with people using external data sources, if we knew that copyright does
not apply.)
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apply to your data. I've got a download of the OSM
data dump. I can repost it, right now, as public domain.
Thanks, that's interesting. Although he didn't in fact carry out his threat...
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, no doubt the people mapping it have good reasons.
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positions and seeing who blinks first.
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tagging what is
semantically correct.
You might want to follow the conventions used by existing paper maps in your
country.
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in the United Kingdom is like this: it uses 'naptan:'
tags which are not changed by mappers directly. However, that setup is not an
option for bread-and-butter things like road layout and naming, where we want
everybody to be able to edit the map.
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and agreed on this list before that these nodes can be
junked now that we have county boundaries as polygons. So please go ahead.
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at all. So I would still
be in favour of adding the data.
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This looks interesting:
http://www.smartertechnology.com
/c/a/Smarter-Strategies/Cloud-Makes-3D-Models-from-Ariel-Photos/
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Clearly the local authority must have a list of all taxable addresses, with
house
number and postcode. If it can be safely released (just the address, with no
other identifying information) then it would be a great completeness check for
OSM, even better than OS Locator.
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existed before - or do you
mean changing already-mapped names to agree with OS?
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Steve Doerr doerr.stephen@... writes:
e.g.http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.9256lon=-1.3605zoom=14layers=M
It's not really 'the' C351, as there will be C351s all over the country.
In that case local_ref would be a more appropriate tag than ref.
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see an older street sign with an
apostrophe, before the local authority became illiterate and stopped bothering
with them. I take that as enough reason to tag the correct name.
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tag but it might possibly be useful for 'name_sign' or 'signed:name' or
various increasingly complex tag schemes.
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or unsigned:ref=yes would be better.
I think this is a good idea, with plain unsigned=yes taken to mean that neither
the name nor the ref or any other unique identification is signed.
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changing.
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