[Tango-L] How to lead volcadas
Anne Atheling asked me to give some links to videos showing volcadas. So I did a YouTube search which returned 625 videos. After about an hour and maybe 30 videos I gave up. Even the tutorials don't help. Why? Because they don't break the volcada combinations down. (Well, two did. Poor camera angles and terrible sound made it imposssible to learn from them.) So here is a verbal description. Let's see if I can make this clear and painless. I, the leader, step left. ---I, THE FOLLOWER, STEP RIGHT. I stop, legs apart with right foot in place. ---I STOP, LEGS APART, LEFT FOOT IN PLACE. I twist my upper body leftward to lead a backward ocho, but stop. ---I BEGIN A BACKWARD OCHO BUT STOP. MY FREE LEFT FOOT IS BEHIND MY ---SUPPORTING RIGHT FOOT. I firm up my embrace, and straighten my spine just a bit. ---I MAKE SURE MY TORSO IS STRAIGHT AND STRONG. I MAY TUCK MY LEFT FOOT ---BEHIND MY RIGHT ANKLE. (If I, the follower, have not experienced this lead I know something special is bout to happen but I don't know what. I likely will not strengthen my torso. I may feel a touch of anxiety.) I step back with my right foot, pulling her toward me. ---I LEAN FORWARD, RESTING MY UPPER BODY ON HIS. (If I have not experienced this situation before I panic. I step forward with my free left foot. I likely will also step forward with my newly freed right foot. We both end up embarrassed and/or angry.) Often nowadays the man will now lead a front boleo ending in a cruzada. But even if he does not many women will try to do this boleo+cruzada combination. BECAUSE SOME TEACHER STUPIDLY TAUGHT THE VOLCADA+BOLEO+CRUZADA AS A SINGLE UNIT!!! Teachers should teach the volcada as a separate, simple figure. Why? Because it lets students create several complex figures. Here are two. I walk around my partner's pivot point. This is a carousel. ---I DO NOTHING EXCEPT CONTINUE LEANING ON HIM. I walk backward. This is a drag. ---I DO NOTHING EXCEPT CONTINUE LEANING ON HIM. Lastly I should say that the beginning and ending of the volcada has several variations. Instead of the man beginning by stepping sideways left he could step forward left or backward left. (Or side/forward/backward right.) At the end rather than stepping back right he could step side right to briefly sandwich his partner's feet, then step back LEFT. Either way he leaves his legs apart. Alternatively he could add an additional backward step that brings his feet together. Some cautions for men. Do a half-turn before doing volcadas - this lets you see those further back in the flow and abort a volcada before they come nearer and endanger your partner and your pride. If your are unsure how expert your partner is with volcadas you should make the first lean a small one, then work up to bigger ones. If she does not straighten and strengthen her torso don't try volcadas. This is no exageration - she could seriously injure her back. A caution for women. If you have any problem with the lean, object. Give some excuse (such as a hurt back) if that makes you feel better. You can indeed injure your back doing volcadas. Larry de Los Angeles Click here for financial aid options. Quick and Easy. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iighofgyJUppXkfNCZQwNNVZhgQTt1MhTai10GyfxK5DWIr4W/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] How to lead volcadas
A caution for women. If you have any problem with the lean, object. Give some excuse (such as a hurt back) if that makes you feel better. You can indeed injure your back doing volcadas. Larry de Los Angeles Indeed. And that is why this move, and I mean, especially this move, should never be taught over the internet and noone should attempt to try this on a woman after only reading about it on the internet. Fact is, that a badly led volcada is the most uncomfortable moves of all for a woman, it is not only painful but indeed poses a health risk as Larry already mentioned above, even though he makes it look as though it would always be the woman who has a problem with the lean. A man with bad balance, poor axis, little strength, bad posture, shorter and/or lighter than the woman, wrong alignment in the embrace (the volcada needs some special adjustment you have to know beforehand) - if you have one or several of these qualities in that list- please don't do it. It feels awful, believe me. On the other hand, a man with enough skill and a trained body and of reasonable weight (I say this because I live in Japan where people are generally small and slight) can treat the woman to a beautiful expreience. But then, this man would not sit in front of his computer, trying to learn this move with the help of larrynla's written instructions. So please, train in class, or don't do it. You will spare your partners a lot of aggravation and possibly moemtns of panic, injuries, like pulled muscles, wrenched backs, sqeezed disks in the spine and such. AND she might never dance with you again and tell all her friends about this, too. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Leading with arms or hands
I always wondered what is wrong with a well executed lead done utilizing or invoving as a complement other body parts than the torso. Do you have an opinion in this respect? Notice that I said well executed lead. So please do not include 'bad habits' of people that do not know how to lead. Sergio _ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Leading with arms or hands
I always wondered what is wrong with a well executed lead done utilizing or invoving as a complement other body parts than the torso. Do you have an opinion in this respect? Notice that I said well executed lead. So please do not include 'bad habits' of people that do not know how to lead. On placing my arms and hands in different places: Early on, I had a very stiff torsoe. Some very valuable instruction was to place my hands and arms on various places on my follower's body. This worked wonders to free my mind from doing everything the same way all the time. Imagine, for example, placing your right hand on her left shoulder. Lead from your center, but, notice how much more aware you are of yourself and of her motion. On leading with my belly: My left foot has been hurting for years, now. At times, I will take one dance and let my belly be the connection point. Now, I am thin, so, I have to go out of my way to make it more pronounced. But, (1) it takes a lot of pressure off my foot and (2) my partner loves the change. Actually, it makes me more aware of leading a more dramatic molinete. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Leading with hands
I am a follower and I will tell you why I prefer the torso to hands. Leads with hands are annoying. I can be dancing with a man who has nice posture and a good sense of music and then there are those hands guiding me through the dance. Leading with the torso at least for me is a much more natural progression of the movement. It does not interfere with a walk, giro, or ocho. When hands are used no matter how good the lead is, it is never smooth. The embrace is just that...an embrace. With good posture the force of the torso moves the body smoothly and naturally through the dance. With hands it cannot be smooth. AND with a bad lead I feel like I am being worked like a slot machine. Horrbyy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
I agree. Hands maybe helpful for executing very complicated figures in open embrace but in salon, they quickly throw you out of your tango trance. Deby Novitz wrote: The embrace is just that...an embrace. With good posture the force of the torso moves the body smoothly and naturally through the dance. With hands it cannot be smooth. AND with a bad lead I feel like I am being worked like a slot machine. Horrbyy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
With hands it cannot be smooth. AND with a bad lead I feel like I am being worked like a slot machine. Horrbyy. I think a follower's input will far out-weigh a leader's input on THIS subject! I wouldn't want my follower to feel horrbyy about MY lead! ;o) My example, in my previous post, was just an exercise. Thank you, Deby. (Watch out for the leaders with a pocket full of quarters!) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
FWIW, my belief is that the physical aspect of the lead comes through the physical connection. Thus, in close embrace, since the physical connection is via the torso, hands and arms are not needed and perhaps not desirable. In open embrace, the physical connection is via the hands and arms. Thus the physical aspect of the lead can totally come from WELL EXECUTED lead with the arms or hands. The problem here is well executed. Using a body lead insures that the lead is asking the follow to move in a manner consistent with how the lead's body is moving. It almost automatically eliminates rough, jerky, abrupt movements. For a lead to have adequate sensitivity and control to lead as smoothly with hands or arms requires a lot of skill. Perhaps more than most, but certainly not all, possess. It is also the case that leading with the hands need not include a constant guiding of every motion of the follow any more than a torso lead includes constant guiding. That again is a skill issue, and not an absolute. Just M2CW Cheers D. David Thorn _ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
I'm with Deby. Most leads who use hands either over-lead or under-lead. All the twisting and pushing of my hand does not make my feet move. But the worst of all is when their body says one thing and their hands say another. I have learned to just stop until they figure out where they want me to be. And if they 'force' lead with their hands, I take a stroll to my table. Nancy --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Deby Novitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Deby Novitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands To: tango-l@mit.edu Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 1:20 PM I am a follower and I will tell you why I prefer the torso to hands. Leads with hands are annoying. I can be dancing with a man who has nice posture and a good sense of music and then there are those hands guiding me through the dance. Leading with the torso at least for me is a much more natural progression of the movement. It does not interfere with a walk, giro, or ocho. When hands are used no matter how good the lead is, it is never smooth. The embrace is just that...an embrace. With good posture the force of the torso moves the body smoothly and naturally through the dance. With hands it cannot be smooth. AND with a bad lead I feel like I am being worked like a slot machine. Horrbyy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
Jack Dylan wrote I [took] some time and trouble to explain [the difference between an 'open' step and a 'crossed' step] but received no feedback. I hope you found my comments useful. They were useful. Thanks! Part of the difficulty understanding what open and crossed mean is the terminolgy (in English, anyway). Naveira etc. are not talking about an open STEP, or crossed STEP, which would refer to a step or a stance of one person. They are talking about the relation between two people. (A crossed STEP is when a person crosses one foot in front of or behind another foot. Step 5 of the 8CB is a crossed step. When a man leads a molinete he may cross one foot behind another so he can do a half turn in place while she walks around him.) I have been mulling over just what good it does to know the difference between an open and crossed relation. Let's try the 8CB. Step 1. An open relation. I (the leader) can do step 2 as a sacada on her trailing right foot. This might help lead a parada or a boleo, for instance. Step 2. An open relation. I can do step 3 as a sacada instead of the usual step 3. Step 3. A crossed relation. I can do step 4 as a sacada, but my partner and I will have trouble. (We can still do a figure beginning in a sacada, but to do it smoothly we both must be quite expert and have a lot of body control.) That's what I've figured out so far. I should mention that years ago when Fabian Salas began teaching in Los Angeles I took all his classes. The first few he discussed open/crossed and other parts of his and Naveira's system. Later he quit doing that. I suspect their system is good for thinking up new ways of doing movements, but not for improvising them while dancing. Larry de Los Angeles Play it loud with a new car stereo! Click here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iigWK8SwmpnzXJzv0qPHhtIjTVfj8SXPz7VOCUdcXBQgonAOm/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
Larry wrote: I suspect their system [crossed vs open]is good for thinking up new ways of doing movements, but not for improvising them while dancing. I beg to differ. Generally, I can not tell you which (right or left) foot my follow is on, but I try to NEVER loose track of our body relationship as defined by 1) crossed vs parallel feet and 2) whether my follow's position is cross or open. Those two bits of information are what allow me to dance improvisationally, creating movements new to me on the fly, and to go beyond the simple rhythmic modulations and pattern modifications that often pass for improvisation. Cheers David _ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
NANCY wrote: But the worst of all is when their body says one thing and their hands say another. I have learned to just stop until they figure out where they want me to be. yes, me too. Sometimes it surprises them, but they seem to understand and it gives them a chance to learn. If nothing at all works from there, I kind of quietly ocho back to square one to help them untangle their mess. And if they 'force' lead with their hands, I take a stroll to my table. good one! Not that they necessarily get the message. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
NANCY wrote: But the worst of all is when their body says one thing and their hands say another. I have learned to just stop until they figure out where they want me to be. yes, me too. Sometimes it surprises them, but they seem to understand and it gives them a chance to learn. If nothing at all works from there, I kind of quietly ocho back to square one to help them untangle their mess. And if they 'force' lead with their hands, I take a stroll to my table. good one! Not that they necessarily get them message. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Leading with arms or hands
Re: [Tango-L] Leading with arms or hands There is absolutely nothing wrong with using one's arms or hands to help lead a figure. What often is wrong is HOW some people use those - as a primary lead rather than a seconary helping one. There is a hierarchy of leads. Most important is the upper torso, for overall direction in which the couple is to move, and to begin turns. Arms supplement this. For instance, if the man adds a few double- or triple-steps to the basic slow-slow rhythm. He would tighten his embrace noticeably to indicate she should duplicate his rhythm change. Or loosen his embrace (or even back off from a close connection) so that she will know to continue the basic rhythm. Hands should be used sparingly, but only novices claim they should never ever be used whatsoever. An example where they are needed is in leading a parada. A usual parada opens the embrace. The man's right hand or lower arm presses against her back to stop her. His left hand pushes lightly against her right hand in opposition to the lead on her back. The two lock her into the stop. A foot lead is sometimes used with the parada. It is unneeded if the parada is properly lead. Teaching it may do more harm than good if it takes attention away from leading it properly. Foot leads are the main leads for some movements. Sacadas are an example. Though I find it better to use my mid-ankle or mid-thigh (but never one's ankle or knee - they are too hard). I can lead closer to my partner's body and don't need to look down to be sure my foot is placed properly. (Speaking of looking down. The man should not tilt his head. This throws his center of gravity forward when it would better be centered in the middle of his torso. Also, it cuts down his peripheral vision.) Larry de Los Angeles Visit the Big Apple. Click here for information on vacation packages and tickets. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iifkbm80Pj3IpSwIa2nSMB8wisyuEQjJX0kqoNj4hXokgHp9g/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Update on saving the Tango-L archives
Below is my current correspondence with U of Oregon. We might be able to save the archives. = From: Jon K. Miyake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Waxman [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Tango-L Archive I (Marty)wrote: Jon, Does a backup of the Tango-L archive exist on backup tapes or servers? If so, perhaps it can be transferred to another host that Tango group can set up. I would hate to lose all that history. Thanks for any help or info you can provide. Jon replied: If necessary it can probably be archived as a tar or zip file and made available. But as I am not the administrator for the system nor familiar with how the archive is being made available this is only technical speculation on my part. My colleague, who is responsible for the system hosting pythia.uoregon.edu, has Lucy Lynch's current contact information. I forwarded your initial request to him to pass along to Lucy. He has been cc'd on this e-mail as well. = From: Steven Huter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jon K. Miyake [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Tango-L Archive hello martin lucy is now aware of this, and we're working with her on it. some recent upgrades to limestone may have caused this hiccup, so we'll take care of it with lucy. she is out of the country at IETF right now, so it may take a day or two. steve E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10380e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Update on saving the Tango-L archives
Martin, I contacted Lucy directly ( with a little Google search) and she is on it. I don't think she realized we had lost the Server space with her departure from U. of Oregon. She will let us know when the Archives are restored. I copied this info to Shahrukh, the list Owner, so I think we should let the principles handle it from here on out unless we need to find another home for the Archives. Nancy --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Martin Waxman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Martin Waxman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Tango-L] Update on saving the Tango-L archives To: tango-l tango-l@mit.edu Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 4:15 PM Below is my current correspondence with U of Oregon. We might be able to save the archives. = From: Jon K. Miyake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Waxman [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Tango-L Archive I (Marty)wrote: Jon, Does a backup of the Tango-L archive exist on backup tapes or servers? If so, perhaps it can be transferred to another host that Tango group can set up. I would hate to lose all that history. Thanks for any help or info you can provide. Jon replied: If necessary it can probably be archived as a tar or zip file and made available. But as I am not the administrator for the system nor familiar with how the archive is being made available this is only technical speculation on my part. My colleague, who is responsible for the system hosting pythia.uoregon.edu, has Lucy Lynch's current contact information. I forwarded your initial request to him to pass along to Lucy. He has been cc'd on this e-mail as well. = From: Steven Huter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jon K. Miyake [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Tango-L Archive hello martin lucy is now aware of this, and we're working with her on it. some recent upgrades to limestone may have caused this hiccup, so we'll take care of it with lucy. she is out of the country at IETF right now, so it may take a day or two. steve E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10380e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
Let's be more specific. It's not the use of the hands that's the problem. It's the TIMING. It's when the man is impatient and doesn't respect my timing that I feel that he's pushing or pulling me, even if he is trying not to use his hands. Imagine a hoola-hoop being placed around the woman, if the man tugs on the hoop before she is ready to move, she's going to feel pulled. If the man tugs on the hoop when she is moving, she's not going to feel pulled. So it's not the use of the hands. It's about listening to your partner and sensing when she is ready to move. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Fri, 8/1/08, David Thorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: David Thorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands To: tango-l tango-l@mit.edu Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 1:41 PM FWIW, my belief is that the physical aspect of the lead comes through the physical connection. Thus, in close embrace, since the physical connection is via the torso, hands and arms are not needed and perhaps not desirable. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No need to take sides
What Jack says is a little mean, and certainly divisive, considering I was trying to make peace by defending the much-maligned close embrace people who supposedly are the only ones who criticize other dance styles. So I'm going to try to defend myself. I dance, and teach, many styles regularly - Canyengue, milonguero, salon, open, nuevo. I don't mind people dancing the style they and their partner prefer and are able to execute successfully with others on the floor. But they must be good at it, so they don't risk ruining another's dance experience. I think we all agree on that. Even good dancers can be seduced by the allure of that cool move they just learned, even though it doesn't fit on the floor and their lead is a little tenuous. And good teachers can be seduced by the demands of their students, asking for colgadas when they can't walk yet. (Would you like to know how much trouble I got in when I stood in for another teacher, and instead of furthering the student's education on single axis turns, I said let's learn to walk first?) And we can all be tempted to blame the other guy on the floor, who is always using too much space. And we can all be tempted to lump them into a particular style. We have a guy here in town who constantly uses too much space and bumps into others. Surprisingly, he always blames the other guy. Then there's the imitators who never take lessons but do the move they saw anyway. E! So, if that is true that only Close Embrace people criticize, why is it that Traditional tango, Nuevo, canyengue people don't criticize people who dance in close? Are they just so much more tolerant? Is there nothing to complain about? (BTW, I've heard some of my favorite dancers derisively called floor walkers because they prefer close.) Yes, I defend my teaching style, which I did not come up with on my own. I studied the techniques of the most successful teachers I knew - those who put the most good dancers on the floor in a short amount of time. It's working here, too. Lois Sergio states: Now the most interesting thing is : Those that dance Traditional tango, Nuevo, canyengue, never criticize anyone else. Those that dance all the styles never criticize anyone but... The ones that dance close embrace all the time, milonguero, have multiple problems expressed in many forms. I now realise that Lois' post was just another veiled attempt to criticise those who do not dance tango in the style that she prefers. Jack ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Leading with arm and hands
Thank you for the many answers to the list and by private mail. Mostly to the ladies for giving their valuable opinion as being recipient of those leads. Most good dancers and tango teachers that I have known ( Traditional tango, Stage tango, Canyengue) use their torso, arms, hands, thighs, legs, feet to lead. I personally can say (from dancing or taking lessons from them) or looking at their instructional videos, that Osvaldo Zotto, Lampazo, Carlos Copelo, Jorge Firpo, Mingo and Pablo Pugliese, Puppy Costello, Nito and Elba, Orlando Paiva, Diego and Carolina, and many others belong in this group. See Diego Di Falco video Technique for the follower. This form of leading was the norm for those styles and still is. The lead is subtle, light, (like a feather touch), invisible, imperceptible to anyone except the follower. It is necessary to lead certain figures or moves in an open embrace . Milonguero style uses only the torso to lead. Those that only know that style created the misconception that any other form of leading is a bad habit. This is not so.The ladies complains are in reference to poor leading and not about the type of lead per se. If in milonga, for instance, I lead a series of chasees ( single or double time) to the woman's right, I may slightly and at the proper time, lift my right hand on her back to indicate this, this can also be indicated by a slight upward movement of the torso. this is done in American Waltz as well. If I am traveling backwards, I may slightly lift my rt. hand on the ladies back to indicate that she should lock one foot behind the other , one or more times. I may force her to cross a leg by slightly touching her leg with mine. I may stop her movements by placing my foot by hers, parallel or perpendicularly to hers. I may prevent her to cross by placing my foot by hers. I may indicate to her to dragg my foot by placing mine by hers and showing an intention of movement with my torso. I May lead a low boleo by slightly lowering my torso and/or my right hand on her back. I may lead a high boleo by slightly lifting my torso or rt. hand. I may lead an amague by over rotating her or by using my torso and rt. hand to change the direction of her front cross. I indicate a jump by lowering myself and lifting. I indicate to her to lift and wrap her leg around my waist by lifting my rt. hand on her back at the proper time. These are just a few examples. There are many, many more. I can lift her foot with mine for a mid boleo or a bicicleta, etc. Summary: Tango technique is different in the different styles. Best regards, Sergio _ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] NA-C: Topics announced for classes on Sun., Aug. 3 with El Pulpo in Chicago
Norberto El Pulpo Esbrez and Stephanie Lepeu will teach two 1.5 hour classes on Sunday, August 3 beginning at 1:00p at Cafe Duvall (2257 W 23rd Place, Chicago IL 60618). The classes will build on concepts previously introduced although it is not necessary to have taken any of the prior classes or workshops. The Sunday classes will be followed by the Opposites Attract practica (4:30-7:00p) hosted by Phoebe J Grant and Jacquline Cahill. The topics for Sunday's classes with Pulpo at Cafe Duvall are: Back Sacadas at 1:00p and En-ganchos at 2:45p. The cost of the workshops is $20 each or both for $30. The Opposities Attract Practica following the classes will be $8 for those attending either class. Pulpo and Stephanie also have time for private lessons while they are in Chicago. New 'user-friendly' rates have been announced: $110 for a couple; $90 to study with Pulpo; and, $70 to study with Stephanie. These rates are quoted per hour and there is a $10 per hour discount for each paid workshop taken last weekend (limit, 1 discount per each hour).Pulpo and Stephanie also have time for private lessons while they are in Chicago. New 'user-friendly' rates have been announced: $110 for a couple; $90 to study with Pulpo; and, $70 to study with Stephanie. These rates are quoted per hour and there is a $10 per hour discount for each paid workshop taken last weekend (limit, 1 discount per each hour). For more information or reservations, contact: Phoebe J. (PJ) Grant of WindyCityTango, Unlimited 312-60TANGO (312-608-2646) cell - text msgs OK WindyCityTango@ yahoo.com (for tango business messages) TangoLadyChicago@ yahoo.com (for immediate communication) Promoter, Teacher, Performer, Sponsor of Argentine Tango ___ Tango-A mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-a ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Criticizing other style dancers
Lois asks: So, if that is true that only Close Embrace people criticize, why is it that Traditional tango, Nuevo, canyengue people don't criticize people who dance in close? Are they just so much more tolerant? Is there nothing to complain about? (BTW, I've heard some of my favorite dancers derisively called floor walkers because they prefer close. Some possible explanations: In Argentina in general, tangueros are conscious that everyone has his own style and they respect each others idiosyncrasies. They get upset with those that use too much space, or bump into other couples. Mostly foreign visitors, because most Argentine beginners do not dance at the milongas till they know how to navigate the floor. In the USA, in great part due to indoctrination by itinerant instructors, dancers of milonguero style have been very critical and intolerant of people that dance differently. I use to discuss these topics for days, members that were the most dogmatic and argumentative remain silent now, due to one thing : videos in youtube can prove that they are wrong very easily. Time may have made them a little wiser as well. The beginner milonguero dancer knows how to navigate the floor and does not disturb anyone around them. He is not going to show off, . He can dance in any corner without any problem, therefore he cannot dance out of place. The beginner dancer of other styles, if poorly instructed in the art of using the floor without disturbing other dancers, can be a big problem; originating all sort of criticism not only from the Milonguero style dancer but also from the ones that dance the same style they do. Trini brought up something extremely important in leadin: The proper time to start and to end the lead. Best regards, Sergio _ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Leading with arm and hands teaching
Since I can only post 1 more time today, I'll have to kill 2 birds with 1 stone: On Teaching: My experience mirrors that of Lois and my preferred teaching style starts beginners off in close-embrace, even though I used to teach in open-embrace. However, there are too many factors in the teaching process to make generalizations about what is the best way to teach, which varies by student, anyway. I mean, if your close-embrace sucks, then you're not going to teach well in close-embrace, right? There's another couple in our community that have taught close for years, but they've yet to produced a single successful student by themselves. So let's not confuse dance style with teaching skills. Jack might be misattributing the student's comfort level with dance style. It could very well be that the teacher is not effectively analyzing the needs of the students or presenting concepts in such a way that students are comfortable dancing close. We can't tell without seeing the actual class. My own theory is that those of us who prefer to teach in close might spend more time learning how to teach than those who teach in open because we know that close-embrace does present additional challenges. But I could simply be biased. --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Sergio Vandekier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Milonguero style uses only the torso to lead. Those that only know that style created the misconception that any other form of leading is a bad habit. Actually, Sergio, it's not the milonguero style that has promoted that concept. I recall that concept of not using the hands as an instruction when I started in salon many moons ago. It's certainly not Susana Miller. She once made a big point about using the hands in a workshop and used the analogy of picking up a water bottle and placing it elsewhere. So, I say that it is salon teachers that propogated that belief and it's a useful belief to have and practice until one is ready for a more sophisticated way of leading. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L Archives and Lucy Lynch's whereabouts?
Thanks for the initiatives. I do have Lucy's contacts (thanks to Nancy Ingle), and the archives are back online. I am following up to make sure it is preserved. If necessary it can be moved to the server on which the Tango-L information page (www.tango-L.com) is hosted, but it is not just a question of moving files but also of installing the scripts that implement the gateway, so stay tuned. Shahrukh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
