Re: Combining solidus above for transcription of poetic meter

[Michael Everson]

http://www.brill.com/files/brill.nl/special_scripts_metrical_characters_unicode.pdf

Re: Combining solidus above for transcription of poetic meter

[Julian Bradfield]

On 2017-03-17, Philippe Verdy  wrote:
> 2017-03-17 18:27 GMT+01:00 Julian Bradfield :
>
>> If you are happy to use a typographically normal combining breve for
>> the unstressed syllables, you should be happy to use a typographically
>> normal acute accent for the stressed syllable.
>>
>
> You've understood the reverse! the stressed syllable in those notation uses
> a breve, the unstressed syllables use a slash/solidus (which many look very
> similar to an acute accent, but means here exactly the opposite).

I have understood the situation as it actually is (and indeed as it is
described in the Wikipedia article). *As I pointed out*, had you
bothered to read what I wrote, the OP accidentally reversed the
standard notation, in which / indicates a stressed syllable, and a
breve an unstressed.

Hence there is no clash with the (e.g.) Spanish use of an acute to
indicate stress.

-- 
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

Re: Combining solidus above for transcription of poetic meter

[Ken Whistler]

On 3/17/2017 10:27 AM, Julian Bradfield wrote:

If you're working in a situation where you don't have either markup
control or the facility to use plain monospaced text, then just use
normal breves and acutes.
It's not clear to me that laying out aligned text (for which there are
many other applications than scansion, e.g. interlinear translation)
is something best achieved with combining characters!


I concur with Julian here. In fact, the very wiki article on scansion 
cited by Rebecca makes it clear that this is an interlinear type of 
annotation that in principle can use many *other* symbols, including x's 
(or multiplication signs), digits, circumflexes, and other symbols.


Furthermore, the application of the scansion marks is to *syllables* and 
not to individual letters, which further enhances the case for 
interlinear representation. The simplest implementation of that is 
precisely as done in that wiki: force the interlinear examples into a 
monospace font.


For simple transposing of an interlinear scansion into a single-line 
plain text representation, either combining breves and acutes (and 
circumflexes and graves, ...) can be used and/or spacing versions of 
breves (and circumflexes...) plus ordinary slashes and backslashes can 
be dropped into the syllabified text.


--Ken

Re: Combining solidus above for transcription of poetic meter

[Philippe Verdy]

An article for you to read that privides some basic guides and a
presentaiton of the concept and its use in HTML:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_character
Then look at CSS 2.0 for specifications.

In Unicode, 3 format control characters were encoded for this
(U+FFF9...U+FFFB), but that supports only a minimalist subset of the ruby
feature and which are (as far as I know) poorly supported in browsers
(almost no one use them, not even for the common ruby text used in Asian
languages, notably in Japanese for the Furigana notations using kanas above
sinographic Kanji text, or in Chinese for the Bopomofo or Latin notations
above sinographic text found in educational books for children).


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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

2017-03-17 20:16 GMT+01:00 Philippe Verdy :

> Final note: the HTML ruby syntax (their standard tags) is not supported by
> MediaWiki, for your example article in English Wikipedia (but there are
> some templates that could simulate ruby notation, using equivalent CSS to
> which the ruby notation should have a default mapping, as specified in an
> annex of the HTML standard suggesting a default CSS stylesheet for standard
> HTML tags).
>
> 2017-03-17 20:10 GMT+01:00 Philippe Verdy :
>
>> 2017-03-17 18:27 GMT+01:00 Julian Bradfield :
>>
>>> If you are happy to use a typographically normal combining breve for
>>> the unstressed syllables, you should be happy to use a typographically
>>> normal acute accent for the stressed syllable.
>>>
>>
>> You've understood the reverse! the stressed syllable in those notation
>> uses a breve, the unstressed syllables use a slash/solidus (which many look
>> very similar to an acute accent, but means here exactly the opposite).
>> However using acute accents that are already used in many langauges for
>> vowel distinctions (independantly of stress) would cause problems.
>>
>> It would be better to use the IPA stress mark that looks like a vertical
>> tick just before the syllable (i.e. before its leading consonnant and not
>> on top of its central vowel): these marks are not combining, they are
>> regular spacing symbols.
>>
>> The proposal discusses about *some* specific use where symbols that look
>> like diacritics may be used in a row just above the actual text (in that
>> case it should not be confused with the actual accents).
>>
>> That's why I think this better fits with interlinear annotations (there
>> will be some vertical margin between the notation and the text using its
>> native diacritics, and the interlinear stress marks will align horizontally
>> without colliding wit h the text whose diacritics would have variable
>> placement, not aligned horizontally but depending on base letters or the
>> presence of other diacritics).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>  Garanti
>> sans virus. www.avast.com
>> 
>> <#m_-5720946395316280878_m_2934369818200883392_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>
>

Re: Combining solidus above for transcription of poetic meter

[Philippe Verdy]

Final note: the HTML ruby syntax (their standard tags) is not supported by
MediaWiki, for your example article in English Wikipedia (but there are
some templates that could simulate ruby notation, using equivalent CSS to
which the ruby notation should have a default mapping, as specified in an
annex of the HTML standard suggesting a default CSS stylesheet for standard
HTML tags).

2017-03-17 20:10 GMT+01:00 Philippe Verdy :

> 2017-03-17 18:27 GMT+01:00 Julian Bradfield :
>
>> If you are happy to use a typographically normal combining breve for
>> the unstressed syllables, you should be happy to use a typographically
>> normal acute accent for the stressed syllable.
>>
>
> You've understood the reverse! the stressed syllable in those notation
> uses a breve, the unstressed syllables use a slash/solidus (which many look
> very similar to an acute accent, but means here exactly the opposite).
> However using acute accents that are already used in many langauges for
> vowel distinctions (independantly of stress) would cause problems.
>
> It would be better to use the IPA stress mark that looks like a vertical
> tick just before the syllable (i.e. before its leading consonnant and not
> on top of its central vowel): these marks are not combining, they are
> regular spacing symbols.
>
> The proposal discusses about *some* specific use where symbols that look
> like diacritics may be used in a row just above the actual text (in that
> case it should not be confused with the actual accents).
>
> That's why I think this better fits with interlinear annotations (there
> will be some vertical margin between the notation and the text using its
> native diacritics, and the interlinear stress marks will align horizontally
> without colliding wit h the text whose diacritics would have variable
> placement, not aligned horizontally but depending on base letters or the
> presence of other diacritics).
>
>
>
>
> 
>  Garanti
> sans virus. www.avast.com
> 
> <#m_2934369818200883392_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>

Re: Combining solidus above for transcription of poetic meter

[Philippe Verdy]

2017-03-17 18:27 GMT+01:00 Julian Bradfield :

> If you are happy to use a typographically normal combining breve for
> the unstressed syllables, you should be happy to use a typographically
> normal acute accent for the stressed syllable.
>

You've understood the reverse! the stressed syllable in those notation uses
a breve, the unstressed syllables use a slash/solidus (which many look very
similar to an acute accent, but means here exactly the opposite).
However using acute accents that are already used in many langauges for
vowel distinctions (independantly of stress) would cause problems.

It would be better to use the IPA stress mark that looks like a vertical
tick just before the syllable (i.e. before its leading consonnant and not
on top of its central vowel): these marks are not combining, they are
regular spacing symbols.

The proposal discusses about *some* specific use where symbols that look
like diacritics may be used in a row just above the actual text (in that
case it should not be confused with the actual accents).

That's why I think this better fits with interlinear annotations (there
will be some vertical margin between the notation and the text using its
native diacritics, and the interlinear stress marks will align horizontally
without colliding wit h the text whose diacritics would have variable
placement, not aligned horizontally but depending on base letters or the
presence of other diacritics).




Garanti
sans virus. www.avast.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Re: Combining solidus above for transcription of poetic meter

[Philippe Verdy]

Isn't this a use case for interlinear annotations ? What is the current
status of interlinear encoding?

We were told that the encoded codepoints for these are more or less
deprecated (but in HTML there's still interlinear annotation supported by
ruby notations). In these annotations, we don't need any diacritics, we
could just use base symbols.


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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

2017-03-17 18:27 GMT+01:00 Julian Bradfield :

> On 2017-03-17, Rebecca T <637...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > When transcribing poetic meter (scansion
> >), it is common to use two
> symbols
> > above the line (usually a breve [U+306  ̆] for stressed syllables and a
> > solidus
> > / slash [U+2F /] for unstressed syllables) to indicate stress patterns.
> Ex:
>
> Other way round, as you illustrate
>
> > This approach, however, is problematic; the lack of a combining slash
> above
> > character means that two lines of text must be used, and any
> non-monospaced
> > font (or any platform where multiple consecutive spaces are truncated
> into
> > one
>
> It won't help to have a "combining solidus a long way above" (which is
> what you really want) unless you also have "combining breve a long way
> above".
> If you are happy to use a typographically normal combining breve for
> the unstressed syllables, you should be happy to use a typographically
> normal acute accent for the stressed syllable.
>
> > by default, such as HTML) makes keeping the annotations properly aligned
> > with
> > the text difficult or impossible — depending on your email client, the
> > above
> > example may be entirely misaligned. Being able to use combining
> diacritics
> > for
> > scansion would make these problems obsolete and enable a semantic
> > transcription
> > of meter.
>
> If you're working in a situation where you don't have either markup
> control or the facility to use plain monospaced text, then just use
> normal breves and acutes.
> It's not clear to me that laying out aligned text (for which there are
> many other applications than scansion, e.g. interlinear translation)
> is something best achieved with combining characters!
>
>
>
>
> --
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
>
>

Re: Combining solidus above for transcription of poetic meter

[eduardo marin]

You would need to propose the entire set of symbols, like the caret the reverse 
solidus and the x above, furthermore you would need to make the solidus small 
so it doesn't interfere with the line of text above. So go for it.



De: Rebecca T <637...@gmail.com>
Enviado: viernes, 17 de marzo de 2017 10:53 a. m.
Para: Unicode Public
Asunto: Combining solidus above for transcription of poetic meter

When transcribing poetic meter 
(scansion), it is common to use two 
symbols
above the line (usually a breve [U+306  ̆] for stressed syllables and a solidus
/ slash [U+2F /] for unstressed syllables) to indicate stress patterns. Ex:

 ̆/   ̆  /  ̆   /̆  / ̆/
When I consider how my light is spent

(John Milton, On His Blindness)

Other symbols used in place of the breve are a cross / x (U+D8 × or U+78 x) or
bullet (U+B7 · or U+2022 •).

This approach, however, is problematic; the lack of a combining slash above
character means that two lines of text must be used, and any non-monospaced
font (or any platform where multiple consecutive spaces are truncated into one
by default, such as HTML) makes keeping the annotations properly aligned with
the text difficult or impossible — depending on your email client, the above
example may be entirely misaligned. Being able to use combining diacritics for
scansion would make these problems obsolete and enable a semantic transcription
of meter.

Would a proposal to add a combining solidus above (and possibly a combining
reversed solidus above to support Hamer, Wright, and Trager-Smith notations) be
supported?

Re: Combining solidus above for transcription of poetic meter

[Julian Bradfield]

On 2017-03-17, Rebecca T <637...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When transcribing poetic meter (scansion
>), it is common to use two symbols
> above the line (usually a breve [U+306  ̆] for stressed syllables and a
> solidus
> / slash [U+2F /] for unstressed syllables) to indicate stress patterns. Ex:

Other way round, as you illustrate

> This approach, however, is problematic; the lack of a combining slash above
> character means that two lines of text must be used, and any non-monospaced
> font (or any platform where multiple consecutive spaces are truncated into
> one

It won't help to have a "combining solidus a long way above" (which is
what you really want) unless you also have "combining breve a long way
above".
If you are happy to use a typographically normal combining breve for
the unstressed syllables, you should be happy to use a typographically
normal acute accent for the stressed syllable.

> by default, such as HTML) makes keeping the annotations properly aligned
> with
> the text difficult or impossible — depending on your email client, the
> above
> example may be entirely misaligned. Being able to use combining diacritics
> for
> scansion would make these problems obsolete and enable a semantic
> transcription
> of meter.

If you're working in a situation where you don't have either markup
control or the facility to use plain monospaced text, then just use
normal breves and acutes.
It's not clear to me that laying out aligned text (for which there are
many other applications than scansion, e.g. interlinear translation)
is something best achieved with combining characters!




-- 
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.