Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-22 Thread André Warnier
chris derham wrote: Let me just summarise my arguments then : 1) These scans are a burden for all webservers, not just for the vulnerable ones. Whether we want to or not, we currently all have to invest resources into countering (or simply responding to) these scans. Obviously, just ignoring

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-22 Thread chris derham
But honestly, I am also a bit at a loss now as to how to continue. There is of course no way for me to prove the validity of the scheme by installing it on 31 million (20%) of webservers on the Internet and looking at the resulting bot activity patterns to confirm my suspicions. Try to enter

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-22 Thread André Warnier
chris derham wrote: But honestly, I am also a bit at a loss now as to how to continue. There is of course no way for me to prove the validity of the scheme by installing it on 31 million (20%) of webservers on the Internet and looking at the resulting bot activity patterns to confirm my

RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-22 Thread Leo Donahue - RDSA IT
-Original Message- From: Howard W. Smith, Jr. [mailto:smithh032...@gmail.com] Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 also, if an 'ANN' email was sent, where /expert tomcat/ users can derive/develop a list of the popular/frequent URLs

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-22 Thread André Warnier
Leo Donahue - RDSA IT wrote: -Original Message- From: Howard W. Smith, Jr. [mailto:smithh032...@gmail.com] Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 also, if an 'ANN' email was sent, where /expert tomcat/ users can derive/develop a list

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-22 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Chris, On 4/20/13 6:08 PM, chris derham wrote: I think that you have articulated your suggestion very well. I think you have weighed the pros well and been open to debate. Personally I just don't think what you propose will have the effect that

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-22 Thread André Warnier
Christopher Schultz wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Chris, On 4/20/13 6:08 PM, chris derham wrote: I think that you have articulated your suggestion very well. I think you have weighed the pros well and been open to debate. Personally I just don't think what you propose

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-22 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 André, On 4/22/13 6:44 PM, André Warnier wrote: Christopher Schultz wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Chris, On 4/20/13 6:08 PM, chris derham wrote: I think that you have articulated your suggestion very well. I

RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-21 Thread Esmond Pitt
The hack attempts that started this thread aren't denial of service attacks at all. They are attempted penetration attempts which if successful lead to installation of a viral servlet. The way I fixed them was to put an Apache HTTPD in front with a whitelist so that only known management IP

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-21 Thread André Warnier
Esmond Pitt wrote: The hack attempts that started this thread aren't denial of service attacks at all. Who said that they were ? They are attempted penetration attempts which if successful lead to installation of a viral servlet. They were HEAD requests, which just indicate whether this

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-20 Thread André Warnier
Mark H. Wood wrote: On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 01:24:04PM -0500, Caldarale, Charles R wrote: From: Leo Donahue - RDSA IT [mailto:leodona...@mail.maricopa.gov] Subject: RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 So you are saying it could be possible to know

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-20 Thread André Warnier
] Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 That's the idea. That is one reason why I brought this discussion here : to check if, if the default factory setting was for example 1000 ms delay for each 404 answer, could anyone think of a severe detrimental side

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-20 Thread André Warnier
André Warnier wrote: Mark H. Wood wrote: On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 01:24:04PM -0500, Caldarale, Charles R wrote: From: Leo Donahue - RDSA IT [mailto:leodona...@mail.maricopa.gov] Subject: RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 So you are saying it could

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-20 Thread David Kerber
On 4/20/2013 7:29 AM, André Warnier wrote: ... Addendum : actually, as far as 4xx codes go, a bit more discrimination is needed. A 401 response (Auth required) for example, should not be slowed down, as it is part of a normal authentication cycle. There may be others like that. Well, Java

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-20 Thread chris derham
Let me just summarise my arguments then : 1) These scans are a burden for all webservers, not just for the vulnerable ones. Whether we want to or not, we currently all have to invest resources into countering (or simply responding to) these scans. Obviously, just ignoring them doesn't stop

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-20 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 7:22 AM, André Warnier a...@ice-sa.com wrote: 5) if the scheme works, and it does the effect of making this type of server-scanning uneconomical, bot developers will look for other ways to find vulnerable targets. IMHO, I don't see why bots will get 'turned off' by

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-19 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 12:26 PM, André Warnier a...@ice-sa.com wrote: My contention is that this would be self-defeating for the bots. 91.121.172.164 - - [03/Apr/2013:08:19:50 +0200] GET /robots.txt HTTP/1.1 404 360 - Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0; en-US) I

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-19 Thread Mark H. Wood
: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 That's the idea. That is one reason why I brought this discussion here : to check if, if the default factory setting was for example 1000 ms delay for each 404 answer, could anyone think of a severe detrimental side

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-19 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 01:24:04PM -0500, Caldarale, Charles R wrote: From: Leo Donahue - RDSA IT [mailto:leodona...@mail.maricopa.gov] Subject: RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 So you are saying it could be possible to know in advance

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-18 Thread André Warnier
chris derham wrote: Hi. Long and thoughtful post. Thanks. just hope it helps move the discussion forward Say you have a botnet composed of 100 bots, and you want (collectively) to have them scan 100,000 hosts in total, each one for 30 known buggy URLs. These 30 URLs are unrelated to

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 01:57:55PM -0300, chris derham wrote: Or, another way of looking at this would be that for every 40 servers scanned without a 404 delay, the same bot infrastructure within the same time would only be able to scan 1 server if a 1 s 404 delay was implemented by 50% of

RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread Leo Donahue - RDSA IT
-Original Message- From: André Warnier [mailto:a...@ice-sa.com] Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 That's the idea. That is one reason why I brought this discussion here : to check if, if the default factory setting was for example 1000

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread chris derham
Yes. But someone *does* own the botted computers, and their own operations are slightly affected. I have wondered if there is some way to make a bot so intrusive that many more owners will ask themselves, why is my computer so slow/weird/whatever? I'd better get it looked at. Maybe I

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread André Warnier
Leo Donahue - RDSA IT wrote: -Original Message- From: André Warnier [mailto:a...@ice-sa.com] Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 That's the idea. That is one reason why I brought this discussion here : to check if, if the default

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 André, On 4/17/13 1:27 PM, André Warnier wrote: Leo Donahue - RDSA IT wrote: -Original Message- From: André Warnier [mailto:a...@ice-sa.com] Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Mark, On 4/17/13 8:49 AM, Mark H. Wood wrote: Yes. But someone *does* own the botted computers, and their own operations are slightly affected. I have wondered if there is some way to make a bot so intrusive that many more owners will ask

RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread Leo Donahue - RDSA IT
-Original Message- From: André Warnier [mailto:a...@ice-sa.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 10:28 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 Leo Donahue - RDSA IT wrote: -Original Message- From: André Warnier

RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread Leo Donahue - RDSA IT
-Original Message- From: Christopher Schultz [mailto:ch...@christopherschultz.net] Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Mark, On 4/17/13 8:49 AM, Mark H. Wood wrote: Yes. But someone *does

RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread Caldarale, Charles R
From: Leo Donahue - RDSA IT [mailto:leodona...@mail.maricopa.gov] Subject: RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 So you are saying it could be possible to know in advance that certain requests are for repeated requests of nothing or being made

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread André Warnier
chris derham wrote: Yes. But someone *does* own the botted computers, and their own operations are slightly affected. I have wondered if there is some way to make a bot so intrusive that many more owners will ask themselves, why is my computer so slow/weird/whatever? I'd better get it looked

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread Konstantin Kolinko
2013/4/10 Howard W. Smith, Jr. smithh032...@gmail.com: Every now and then, I like to review localhost_access_log files, just to see who might be trying to access my web app, running on TomEE 1.6.0 snapshot (Tomcat 7.0.39). So, a few minutes ago, I saw the following in the log: 113.11.200.30

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread André Warnier
Christopher Schultz wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 André, On 4/17/13 1:27 PM, André Warnier wrote: Leo Donahue - RDSA IT wrote: -Original Message- From: André Warnier [mailto:a...@ice-sa.com] Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread André Warnier
Leo Donahue - RDSA IT wrote: -Original Message- From: André Warnier [mailto:a...@ice-sa.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 10:28 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 Leo Donahue - RDSA IT wrote: -Original

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread André Warnier
Konstantin Kolinko wrote: 2013/4/10 Howard W. Smith, Jr. smithh032...@gmail.com: Every now and then, I like to review localhost_access_log files, just to see who might be trying to access my web app, running on TomEE 1.6.0 snapshot (Tomcat 7.0.39). So, a few minutes ago, I saw the following in

RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread Leo Donahue - RDSA IT
-Original Message- From: André Warnier [mailto:a...@ice-sa.com] Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 So you are saying it could be possible to know in advance that certain requests are for repeated requests of nothing or being made

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread André Warnier
Leo Donahue - RDSA IT wrote: -Original Message- From: André Warnier [mailto:a...@ice-sa.com] Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 So you are saying it could be possible to know in advance that certain requests are for repeated requests

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:45 AM, chris derham ch...@derham.me.uk wrote: The OWASP recommendations for securing tomcat suggest removing all items under catalina_home/webapps as a first step. Just a thought. The first step an attacker performs when conducting a focused attack, is to map out

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:59 PM, Leo Donahue - RDSA IT leodona...@mail.maricopa.gov wrote: -Original Message- From: Christopher Schultz [mailto:ch...@christopherschultz.net] Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 People *do* do

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 2:39 PM, André Warnier a...@ice-sa.com wrote: Some other calculations : According to the same Netcraft site, of the 600 million websites, 60% are Apache (I guess that this includes httpd and Tomcat (or else Tomcat is in others). This is good to know, and honestly,

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Leo Donahue - RDSA IT leodona...@mail.maricopa.gov wrote: Not knowing anything about the history of the HTTP 404 method, if a server does not find a matching request URI, why was it decided that the protocol would even respond at all? Seems like the request

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-17 Thread chris derham
Hi. Long and thoughtful post. Thanks. just hope it helps move the discussion forward Say you have a botnet composed of 100 bots, and you want (collectively) to have them scan 100,000 hosts in total, each one for 30 known buggy URLs. These 30 URLs are unrelated to eachother; each one of them

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-16 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 07:15:11PM +0200, André Warnier wrote: Neven Cvetkovic wrote: How about creating a fake manager application :))) That takes X minutes/seconds to get back a 404 ;))) [snip] Of course at the moment I am just fishing here for potential negative side-effects. Search

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-16 Thread André Warnier
Mark H. Wood wrote: On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 07:15:11PM +0200, André Warnier wrote: Neven Cvetkovic wrote: How about creating a fake manager application :))) That takes X minutes/seconds to get back a 404 ;))) [snip] Of course at the moment I am just fishing here for potential negative

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-16 Thread chris derham
Or, another way of looking at this would be that for every 40 servers scanned without a 404 delay, the same bot infrastructure within the same time would only be able to scan 1 server if a 1 s 404 delay was implemented by 50% of the webservers. This assumes that the scanning software makes

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-16 Thread David kerber
On 4/16/2013 12:57 PM, chris derham wrote: Or, another way of looking at this would be that for every 40 servers scanned without a 404 delay, the same bot infrastructure within the same time would only be able to scan 1 server if a 1 s 404 delay was implemented by 50% of the webservers. This

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-16 Thread Pïd stèr
On 16 Apr 2013, at 17:58, chris derham ch...@derham.me.uk wrote: Or, another way of looking at this would be that for every 40 servers scanned without a 404 delay, the same bot infrastructure within the same time would only be able to scan 1 server if a 1 s 404 delay was implemented by 50% of

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-16 Thread André Warnier
chris derham wrote: Or, another way of looking at this would be that for every 40 servers scanned without a 404 delay, the same bot infrastructure within the same time would only be able to scan 1 server if a 1 s 404 delay was implemented by 50% of the webservers. This assumes that the

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-16 Thread André Warnier
Pïd stèr wrote: On 16 Apr 2013, at 17:58, chris derham ch...@derham.me.uk wrote: Or, another way of looking at this would be that for every 40 servers scanned without a 404 delay, the same bot infrastructure within the same time would only be able to scan 1 server if a 1 s 404 delay was

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-16 Thread Pïd stèr
On 16 Apr 2013, at 19:38, André Warnier a...@ice-sa.com wrote: Pïd stèr wrote: On 16 Apr 2013, at 17:58, chris derham ch...@derham.me.uk wrote: Or, another way of looking at this would be that for every 40 servers scanned without a 404 delay, the same bot infrastructure within the same time

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-16 Thread David kerber
On 4/16/2013 2:26 PM, André Warnier wrote: ... The trick is to make the vaccine cheap enough and easy enough to administer, so that there will be a significant enough proportion of vaccinated servers to make the virus statistically ineffective. Maybe if we find a simple patch to Tomcat to

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-16 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 André, On 4/16/13 2:37 PM, André Warnier wrote: Say that it would be easy to implement this in Tomcat, and that we do not collectively find good reasons not to do so, and that it does get implemented. Then I pledge that my next move would be

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-16 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 David, On 4/16/13 2:53 PM, David kerber wrote: On 4/16/2013 2:26 PM, André Warnier wrote: ... The trick is to make the vaccine cheap enough and easy enough to administer, so that there will be a significant enough proportion of vaccinated

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-16 Thread André Warnier
Pïd stèr wrote: On 16 Apr 2013, at 19:38, André Warnier a...@ice-sa.com wrote: Pïd stèr wrote: On 16 Apr 2013, at 17:58, chris derham ch...@derham.me.uk wrote: Or, another way of looking at this would be that for every 40 servers scanned without a 404 delay, the same bot infrastructure

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-16 Thread André Warnier
Christopher Schultz wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 André, On 4/16/13 2:37 PM, André Warnier wrote: Say that it would be easy to implement this in Tomcat, and that we do not collectively find good reasons not to do so, and that it does get implemented. Then I pledge

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-16 Thread André Warnier
Christopher Schultz wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 David, On 4/16/13 2:53 PM, David kerber wrote: On 4/16/2013 2:26 PM, André Warnier wrote: ... The trick is to make the vaccine cheap enough and easy enough to administer, so that there will be a significant enough

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-15 Thread Pid
On 15/04/2013 00:03, Christopher Schultz wrote: Pid, On 4/12/13 1:54 PM, Pïd stèr wrote: On 11 Apr 2013, at 21:36, Christopher Schultz ch...@christopherschultz.net wrote: [...] though I would run Apache httpd and Tomcat on different hosts, so localhost-binding is not possible unless you

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-15 Thread Pid
On 15/04/2013 03:51, Esmond Pitt wrote: I agree with your comment. Adding a second box for Tomcat only means I also have to configure a firewall between them, whereas using 127.0.0.x for Tomcat protects it completely. No it doesn't! Obfuscation or indirection != security. HTTPD doesn't

RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-15 Thread Esmond Pitt
' Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 On 15/04/2013 03:51, Esmond Pitt wrote: I agree with your comment. Adding a second box for Tomcat only means I also have to configure a firewall between them, whereas using 127.0.0.x for Tomcat protects

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-15 Thread Pid
that 'hiding' Tomcat behind Apache HTTPD alone improves their security. p EJP -Original Message- From: Pid [mailto:p...@pidster.com] Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013 8:25 PM To: Esmond Pitt Cc: 'Tomcat Users List' Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-15 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 7:49 AM, Pid p...@pidster.com wrote: I'm persisting in this point because I don't want other users to continue believing the fallacy that 'hiding' Tomcat behind Apache HTTPD alone improves their security. And your persistence is appreciated, and I definitely

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-15 Thread Mark Eggers
On 4/15/2013 3:19 AM, Pid wrote: On 15/04/2013 00:03, Christopher Schultz wrote: Pid, On 4/12/13 1:54 PM, Pïd stèr wrote: On 11 Apr 2013, at 21:36, Christopher Schultz ch...@christopherschultz.net wrote: [...] though I would run Apache httpd and Tomcat on different hosts, so

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-15 Thread Pid
On 15/04/2013 16:11, Mark Eggers wrote: On 4/15/2013 3:19 AM, Pid wrote: On 15/04/2013 00:03, Christopher Schultz wrote: Pid, On 4/12/13 1:54 PM, Pïd stèr wrote: On 11 Apr 2013, at 21:36, Christopher Schultz ch...@christopherschultz.net wrote: [...] though I would run Apache httpd and

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-15 Thread André Warnier
the fallacy that 'hiding' Tomcat behind Apache HTTPD alone improves their security. p EJP -Original Message- From: Pid [mailto:p...@pidster.com] Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013 8:25 PM To: Esmond Pitt Cc: 'Tomcat Users List' Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-15 Thread André Warnier
In what I believe to be related anough to the subject of the original post, I would like to float a proposal, to make life a bit harder for these automated hackers. By personal observation, I note that many such attempts (the large majority in fact) end up requesting URLs which do not exist on

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-15 Thread Neven Cvetkovic
How about creating a fake manager application :))) That takes X minutes/seconds to get back a 404 ;)))

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-15 Thread André Warnier
Neven Cvetkovic wrote: How about creating a fake manager application :))) That takes X minutes/seconds to get back a 404 ;))) Just for the sake of the discussion : - a fake manager application would apply to just the /manager webapp, not to other potential hacking targets, no ? (or you

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-15 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Pid, On 4/15/13 6:19 AM, Pid wrote: On 15/04/2013 00:03, Christopher Schultz wrote: Pid, On 4/12/13 1:54 PM, Pïd stèr wrote: On 11 Apr 2013, at 21:36, Christopher Schultz ch...@christopherschultz.net wrote: [...] though I would run Apache

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-15 Thread Mark Eggers
On 4/15/2013 10:15 AM, André Warnier wrote: Neven Cvetkovic wrote: How about creating a fake manager application :))) That takes X minutes/seconds to get back a 404 ;))) Just for the sake of the discussion : - a fake manager application would apply to just the /manager webapp, not to other

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-14 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Esmond, On 4/11/13 8:43 PM, Esmond Pitt wrote: I referred to the OpenLDAP lockout mechanism, which is not at all primitive. How does OpenLDAP do better than Tomcat? If I make repeated (failed) login attempts against a single user, can I cause

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-14 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Pid, On 4/12/13 1:54 PM, Pïd stèr wrote: On 11 Apr 2013, at 21:36, Christopher Schultz ch...@christopherschultz.net wrote: [...] though I would run Apache httpd and Tomcat on different hosts, so localhost-binding is not possible unless you are

RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-14 Thread Esmond Pitt
I agree with your comment. Adding a second box for Tomcat only means I also have to configure a firewall between them, whereas using 127.0.0.x for Tomcat protects it completely. No it doesn't! Obfuscation or indirection != security. HTTPD doesn't magically provide you with some extra

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-13 Thread Pïd stèr
!= security. HTTPD doesn't magically provide you with some extra security capability. p -Original Message- From: Pïd stèr [mailto:p...@pidster.com] Sent: Saturday, 13 April 2013 3:54 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-13 Thread Mark Eggers
On 4/10/2013 5:47 PM, Howard W. Smith, Jr. wrote: Some legit 404s definitely show up for every enduser that access the webapp via mobile device, because PrimeFaces has 2 files that no longer exist in the JAR file, and I just reported this in their Issue Tracker. 127.0.0.1 - -

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-13 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
On Apr 13, 2013 3:55 PM, Mark Eggers its_toas...@yahoo.com wrote: On 4/10/2013 5:47 PM, Howard W. Smith, Jr. wrote: Some legit 404s definitely show up for every enduser that access the webapp via mobile device, because PrimeFaces has 2 files that no longer exist in the JAR file, and I just

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-12 Thread Pïd stèr
On 11 Apr 2013, at 21:36, Christopher Schultz ch...@christopherschultz.net wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Esmond, On 4/10/13 8:21 PM, Esmond Pitt wrote: We had lots of these and finally an attack last year on a Tomcat where the manager password somehow hadn't been

RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-11 Thread Jeffrey Janner
-Original Message- From: Howard W. Smith, Jr. [mailto:smithh032...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 7:35 PM To: Esmond Pitt Cc: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 8:21 PM, Esmond

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-11 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Esmond, On 4/10/13 8:21 PM, Esmond Pitt wrote: We had lots of these and finally an attack last year on a Tomcat where the manager password somehow hadn't been changed. Note that the manager webapp has no default passwords, so I wonder what you

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-11 Thread Christopher Schultz
log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 8:21 PM, Esmond Pitt esmond.p...@bigpond.comwrote: We had lots of these and finally an attack last year on a Tomcat where the manager password somehow hadn't been changed. The attacker installed a viral

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-11 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 8:21 PM, Esmond Pitt esmond.p...@bigpond.comwrote: We had lots of these and finally an attack last year on a Tomcat where the manager password somehow hadn't been changed. The attacker installed a viral

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-11 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 7:35 PM To: Esmond Pitt Cc: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 8:21 PM, Esmond Pitt esmond.p...@bigpond.comwrote: We had lots of these and finally an attack last year

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-11 Thread Konstantin Kolinko
2013/4/12 Christopher Schultz ch...@christopherschultz.net: The attacker installed a viral servlet application that killed the server completely, we had to rebuild it. I -- like most people I would guess -- don't run under a SecurityManager, but doing so can significantly limit the damage

RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-11 Thread Esmond Pitt
You would have had to intentionally enable the default password. I had clearly done that. The attacker installed a viral servlet application that killed the server completely, we had to rebuild it. I -- like most people I would guess -- don't run under a SecurityManager, but doing so can

RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-10 Thread Caldarale, Charles R
From: Howard W. Smith, Jr. [mailto:smithh032...@gmail.com] Subject: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 a few minutes ago, I saw the following in the log: 113.11.200.30 - - [09/Apr/2013:19:26:58 -0400] HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 - This is an

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-10 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Caldarale, Charles R chuck.caldar...@unisys.com wrote: From: Howard W. Smith, Jr. [mailto:smithh032...@gmail.com] Subject: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 a few minutes ago, I saw the following in the log:

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-10 Thread Daniel Mikusa
On Apr 10, 2013, at 8:17 AM, Howard W. Smith, Jr. wrote: On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Caldarale, Charles R chuck.caldar...@unisys.com wrote: From: Howard W. Smith, Jr. [mailto:smithh032...@gmail.com] Subject: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 a

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-10 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Daniel Mikusa dmik...@vmware.com wrote: On Apr 10, 2013, at 8:17 AM, Howard W. Smith, Jr. wrote: This looks like a bot or automated script, checking to see if the Manager app is available. If it found the app, you'd probably see it try some exploit. Since

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-10 Thread David kerber
On 4/10/2013 8:17 AM, Howard W. Smith, Jr. wrote: On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Caldarale, Charles R chuck.caldar...@unisys.com wrote: From: Howard W. Smith, Jr. [mailto:smithh032...@gmail.com] Subject: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 a few

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-10 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 9:44 AM, David kerber dcker...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/10/2013 8:17 AM, Howard W. Smith, Jr. wrote: On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Caldarale, Charles R chuck.caldar...@unisys.com wrote: From: Howard W. Smith, Jr. [mailto:smithh032...@gmail.com**] Subject: Tomcat

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-10 Thread David kerber
On 4/10/2013 10:24 AM, Howard W. Smith, Jr. wrote: On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 9:44 AM, David kerberdcker...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/10/2013 8:17 AM, Howard W. Smith, Jr. wrote: On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Caldarale, Charles R chuck.caldar...@unisys.com wrote: From: Howard W. Smith,

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-10 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Howard, On 4/10/13 7:32 AM, Howard W. Smith, Jr. wrote: Every now and then, I like to review localhost_access_log files, just to see who might be trying to access my web app, running on TomEE 1.6.0 snapshot (Tomcat 7.0.39). So, a few minutes

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-10 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
Chris, As others have mentioned, I wouldn't give this too much thought: someone is scanning you for vulnerabilities. I'll bet if you log the full headers of those requests, you'll see something like admin/admin or scott/tiger in the WWW-Authenticate headers. Just someone knocking on your

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-10 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Howard, On 4/10/13 1:23 PM, Howard W. Smith, Jr. wrote: As others have mentioned, I wouldn't give this too much thought: someone is scanning you for vulnerabilities. I'll bet if you log the full headers of those requests, you'll see something

RE: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-10 Thread Esmond Pitt
may have played the biggest part in all this. EJP -Original Message- From: Howard W. Smith, Jr. [mailto:smithh032...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, 10 April 2013 10:18 PM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404 On Wed, Apr

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-10 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 8:21 PM, Esmond Pitt esmond.p...@bigpond.comwrote: We had lots of these and finally an attack last year on a Tomcat where the manager password somehow hadn't been changed. The attacker installed a viral servlet application that killed the server completely, we had to

Re: Tomcat access log reveals hack attempt: HEAD /manager/html HTTP/1.0 404

2013-04-10 Thread Howard W. Smith, Jr.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Christopher Schultz ch...@christopherschultz.net wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Howard, On 4/10/13 1:23 PM, Howard W. Smith, Jr. wrote: As others have mentioned, I wouldn't give this too much thought: someone is scanning you for