This shows what happens if you don't legislate to require metric only. They
do it to make it look cheaper, that's why the price/lb is so large compared
with price/kg
You don't need to require metric only. For example, The EU requirement is that
the metric units are *required* and the imperial
Not precisely.
If safety is not the issue but convenience is then parity between the
systems should be allowed to exist.
Road signs are a different kettle of fish.
Road *speed* signs certainly, but what is the possible safety impact
of having intercity *distance* signs in either or both units ?
My point was not that I am advocating that all Americans should change to
the 'metre' spelling but rather the use of two different spellings comes to
us all at a considerable cost.
But is this cost really necessary ? The most important point about the
differences between American and British
The drive to preserve the 'hand' is a drive to protect the word 'hand' as a
symbol that the user is part of the 'in' crowd of horse person's who
understands the jargon of horses;
Surely there is a very simple solution to the hand. Simply replace it
by the decimeter, that way the numbers don't
The gradual replacement of distance signs strategy was the way it was done
in Ireland. I believe it was planned to take 6 years but in the event it
took 8
The decision to metricate was made in 1992. The original deadline for
road signs was 1995. Road speed signs were completed in early 2005;
...It is illegal to display a
price per yard. It must be priced per metre.
Are you 100% sure of this ? Is it not the case that a price per yard
would be perfectly legal if displayed as a supplemental indicator ?
My understanding of the law in the UK (and I am open to correction) is
that what
The problem can be reduced to ZERO tollerence if CGPM CCDM (SI-comittee on
Metre) made the use of *spellings for Length Unit, METRE* mandatory wherever
length is required to be mentioned by ALL NATIONS.
With respect, this is pure nonsense. The
However, let me make my view perfectly clear - when it comes to the
butcher's shop or the green grocer I believe that both systems should be
used with no preference to either on offer. The preference should be left
entirely with the customer.
So in the interest of clarity, do you condemn or
The state's official politics is socialism.
If so, then this must be because the people elected a socialist
government.
I am not a socialist. I don't like socialism
Nor do I.
So by your logic, people who don't like socialist policies should
be free to choose which laws they obey (e.g. pay
This is still a play on words.
No, it's not. He could have sold a pound of bananas without breaking
the law, therefore you can't say this what why he was prosecuted. Now,
if the law had banned the use of imperial units completely, then you
would be correct, as using those units would have
- a trader was convicted of selling a pound of bananas
This is really open to interpretation!
No it isn't. It is simply a lie.
...Whichever way you try to spin it the
man in question was ultimately convicted because he used lbs and oz instead
of kg and g. What you are doing is using
The house of Lords is there as a check.
A check is a good idea, and a bicameral legislature is common in
many democracies. The problem with an unelected body is that it is
not accountable to anyone, and in the case of the House of Lords simply
represents a privileged class.
Are you aware that
There are over 10 times as many people in the UK as Ireland
However - the road network in Ireland, out side major cities like Dublin) is
mainly horse laden rural lanes.
I know that rural roads are generally narrower, but I'm highly amused
that you would think that horse drawn traffic is common
This is very good proof that parliament is increasingly out of step with the
public.
Well, first of all, if you include in your political system a legislative
assembly (House of Lords) whose members are not elected *at all*, then
you can hardly complain that it is not representative of the
I love this baddyizing of imperial units (FFU, Colonial. smelly(?))
I agree that terms like FFU are purely derogatory. Colonial on the other
hand (British Colonial to give it its full name) has some historic accuracy.
It is incorrect to call the system of measurement in use in the US Imperial.
Seriously! Think about it! When did you last look at the deleivered gallons
or litres to get a whole number? Would you put in 10 litres and hand over
eight pounds and thirty nine pence?
Or put in ten pounds worth?
I put in an exact amount of liters (usually 50). Since I pay with a
credit
Please don't advertise that the UK is really really metric - from a
pro-metric US person's perspective it's misleadingly encouraging - for a
pro-imperial or pro-choice person it just looks silly.
The UK is *much* more metricated than the US. I sometimes feel that
metrication is still not
Here lies a good question that usually catches the enforcement brigade out:-
Why did this happen?
Some might say that 'it was all imperial's fault - if they hadn't have used
imperial this would never had happen'
That's plain daft - as you could easily (and equally wrongly) substitute
'imperial'
I agree that its bad practice to mix the two AT THE SAME TIME. Like 4 miles
and 200 metres. However I reserve the right to pick and choose whatever
measure I feel fit for the application I need it for for that point in time
- whether that be litres, millimetres, inches or pints.
The UKMA see
Throw this little bit at your senior engineer. Enacted July 28, 1866.
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/laws/metric-act.html
Text of the law
The Act was codified as 15 USC 204 et seq., shown below.
U.S. Code
Title 15
Commerce and Trade
Chapter 6
Weights and Measures and Standard Time
Like most traditional measures, £sd was a sophisticated system
constructed to enable mathematically adept people (using precious
metal currency) to make quick calculations and estimates in their
heads.
ROTLF. It *required* an unnecessary level of adeptness to make mental
calculations. A decimal
Yoiks - it appears that Irish schools retained the teaching of
'evolved-out' units more than British Schools.
Lest I have given a misleading impression, I remember being taught imperial
units in primary [grade?] school. I entered secondary [high] school in
1970, and that was the year they
was the main issue why was there ABSOLUTELY NOBODY suggesting that
distance signs be converted to miles ?
I don't believe it formed part of the question.
In fairness, it didn't. However, despite frequent references in the last
few years to the fact that our distance and speed units were
However, as I think you tried to point out - its her editorial, or point
of view, and not necessarily the opinion of Northern Irelanders or the
Belfast Telegraph.
True, but it is significant that the Telegraph is one of the most influential
papers in Northern Ireland. It is also a pro-Unionist
Wishful thinking I'm afraid
First, Scotland is part of the UK.
It would make no sense for Scotland to introduce metric signs in advance
of the rest of Britain. There is more an argument for Northern Ireland's
doing so, as it has a land border with us rather than with Great Britain,
and is less
If a minister, or someone from the treasury, were to suggest that such
and such billion pounds were going to be used to change the UK road
signs for no apparent reason than to be just like Europe then their
head would be on the block.
Firstly, billion (even an American billion) would seem a
I think that the most stupid thing was having speed in mph and distances
in km. I reckon the survey would have yeilded much different results if
both speed and distance were changed from one to another at the same
time.
I doubt it (see more below). A two
If anyone would like to know why 350yds was added to the 26 milee then
I'm more than happy to oblige.
I would wager that it has something to do with Britain's only fetish that
is more illogical and more backward-looking than its system of measurement:
the institution of Monarchy.
:-)
The BWMA wants parity between units - there's no issue if people want to
choose metres, or feet. The issue is with coercion. BWMA has supported
a pro-metric business before.
Sorry, but this is simply not true. If the BWMA were really in favor of
choice, they would be encouraging dual pricing
What about bridge height restrictions? Is it true they will remain in
imperial, and if so, for how long?
Bridge heights will continue to be in dual metric and imperial. Older
imperial only signs will be replaced by dual (not by the 2005-01-20 deadline
which refers only to speed signs).
The opposition deputies [MPs] that criticised the government's
handling of it were at pains to welcome the metric element of the
change.
That's an interesting point - were they 'at pains' because they didn't
see the need to convert or because they didn't want to appear to agree
with the govt?
My
It's a nit, I know, but there's no such entity as CADOT. It's Caltrans
(which you need to know if you're going to do a Google search, for example).
Apologies. Subject corrected.
My sense of it is that it's a complete reversion. A Google search on
Caltrans metric provides the following link to
Presumably the various radio stations and TV stations around Ireland are
independent of state agencies such as the Met office - how would all the
stations be forced to use km/h? Surely some might say something like
...wind speeds of 100 km/h, that's about 60 mph.
Well, there are not that many
Another welcome change due next week is the final piece of metrication for
our weather reporting.
The Met Office TV bulletins report rainfall in mm and atmospheric pressure in
hPa, but wind speeds have remained stubbornly in MPH for some years. An
article in todays Irish Times (reported below)
I find it extremely hard to believe that the Irish public have
absolutely no knowledge at all of metric. Surely they have been taught
metric at school?
I started secondary [high] school in 1970, the first year that the
curriculum changed to metric. Since that date, all Irish students are
With the conversion of Irish road speed and distance signs to be completed by
2005-01-20, what is left to convert?
Are the any hold-outs still in imperial? If so, what is being done to close
the loop holes?
The main legal hold-out is beer dispensed from pumps in bars. This is still
done in
Do Irish and British cars currently display a dual
speedometer (large MPH and small km/h)
Yes.
... and if so,
will Ireland switch to the opposite or will newly
sold cars in Ireland have km/h only?
They will have km/h only, in keeping with most other EU countries.
The other questin would be
The BWMA is playing down this change by whining about how much bigger the UK is
population wise compared to Eire and if anything, the UK imperial usage will be
more a thorn in Eire's side then in the reverse.
They do have a point about the relative size. The population of the Irish
Republic is
BTW, since you track this business of metric speed limit signs so well, by
when do the signs (or are they using decals?) have to be manufactured and
delivered to the Department of Transport to meet the end of January 2005
deadline for conversion?
As mentioned in 31272, of the 59 000 signs
The part the interested me especially is that SI was used to express
distance on the motorway, including what looks like a direct quote from
a public official.
Actually, official announcements like this are pretty much always in metric.
The Dept of Transport and the NRA (*) are pretty good on
http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/iaml/
Isn't angelfire a Canadian web service and Network 54 American? I find it odd
that the BWMA and the IAML host their sites outside of their home base. Now,
why is that?
Quite simple. It's much cheaper than over here, where bandwidth is
traditionally more
I was disappointed to see Seamus Brennan moved from the Dept of Transport
during the last reshuffle (he is now Minister for Social Welfare, which is
seen as a demotion). Although he had a habit of making public announcements
of initiatives long before they were implemented (rather like Microsoft
Greetings,
The Minister for Transport today announced that January 20th 2005 will be the
changeover day for road speed signs.
The original date was to have been this month, but this was delayed
because legislation did not pass in time for the summer recess.
The Minister's statement
Does that include the remnant of distance signs in miles or other units to
kilometres and metres?
No the deadline for the distance signs is 2005-12-31, which might also have
led to the confusion.
Do you have any idea how many signs there are in miles vs. kilometres still?
No idea, but only very
Metric speed changeover accelerates as deadline is set for December
Irish Independent
Thursday September 2nd 2004
Since I don't get the Independent, I never saw this.
It is quite possible that they are planning to do this by December 1st.
They told me their target was by end of November. but
P.S. I noted also the reference in the article to the Irish Republic's
planned conversion to metric signage to be completed by the END of 2005.
Does the BBC know something we haven't seen reported elsewhere?
Most likely a typo. The legal deadline is end of 2004. If that does slip,
it is
The Dept of Transport will still not commit to a date when they will effect
the changeover of speed signs. Until they do that, there won't be any
public awareness campaigns.
The current unofficial aim is for November 2004, and legislation is currently
going before the house.
The main deadline
Because the two messages have the same USMA message number, the problem is
at the list server.
Not necessarily. It means the problem is either at *or after* the list
server.
I have not received any duplicates, which suggests it's not the list server
itself.
The way to track where the
...If someone mentions hands, we will laugh and say: Stupid idiot,
horses don't have hands, they have hooves.
Never miss the chance to point out the absurdity of a system that measures
the height of horses in hands, and the height of humans in feet.
I agree that Tom's suggested reasons for having additional prefixes
close to the base value (his a and b above) are valid arguments to do
it, but I do not believe that is the reason it was done. I believe the
original metric system was intended to have a new prefix for every
additional power
But SI is already prejudiced against prefixes that aren't a power of
1000. There are 20 SI prefixes. A full 16 of them are powers of 1000;
only 4 are not. If the in-between prefixes are so mightily useful and
so darned convenient, why don't we have prefixes for ALL the powers of
ten (see my
However, I have done so based on simple observations of how people change
from old measures to metric units. If they use millimetres, the change is
smooth, rapid, and orderly; if they choose centimetres, the change is rough
(with much reverting backwards and converting to old measures), slow
If millimeters can be used for monorail vehicles which are 3150 mm wide and the
girders which measure 8378 mm wide, why doesn't the clothing industry use
millimeters since clothing measurements are much smaller than the monorail
vehicles and tracks? It doesn't make sense to use centimeters for
No, that's not the main advantage of the litre. The main (only?)
advantage to the litre is that it is a convenient size for ordinary
household uses,
I will concede 'main' but not 'only' as I still maintain that the familiar
relationship between ml, cl L to be a useful feature.
But I am not
I don't believe anything I wrote earlier contradicted what you wrote
below. Specifically I do not believe I said that the litre is
deprecated for non-precision use. I said that I understood it to be
advisable not to use the SI prefixes with litre; for example, since
1000 L = 1 m^3, therefore
You need to write to them and ask them what all of this will mean come
September when all speed limits on Irish roads are not only metricated, but
converted to rounded metric values.
The 50 MPH limit will become 80 km/h.
Incidentally, the expected date is now the October bank holiday weekend
While #1 is certainly true and is a very important advantage of metric,
it is NOT THE ONLY simplification that the metric system provides. The
other simplification is one appreciated more by scientists, but is
significantly more important.
That other advantage is the one usually identified as
Hello in the States if you go to UPS or fedex and you want to send a package to
Europe or any other metric country wouldn't they weigh the package in lbs
because the country of origin is the states and they use pounds for weighing
packages?
I get regular shipments of computer equipment from the
Most European countries don't have church/state separation. England is the
worst offender, in that the Queen is the head of the Church of England and
the Prime Minister is the one who appoints Bishops (presumably with royal
assent).
It varies a bit. France has pretty good separation, including
When the speeds change in Ireland in Sept. 04 it is only for southern Ireland
isn't it?
Correct. Speed signs in Northern Ireland are specified by the UK Dept of
Transport.
Warning signs alerting drivers to the different units used will
be placed on the main border roads, and at ferry ports.
Marcus, why on Earth should someone be obligated to give you information if you
are not willing to help pay for the cost of gathering and distributing the
information?
In fairness to Marcus, he was requesting information not for his own personal
benefit, but to help with the common cause which
Louis Jourdan wrote:
I suspect (I am now retired) that in French economic circles, they
are using k¤, M¤, ... (it's just bigger!).
What you possibly intended to be euro symbols came through as the generic
currency symbol.
The problem is, 80 hex is *not* the ISO value for the euro symbol. There
A government committee is assessing all existing speed limits in view of their
coming metrication.
I spoke on the phone to the person chairing this committee about its progress.
The report should be delivered to the Minister by the end of July.
Limits will be rationalised. At present there are
by the way, I think with metrication should also come
1. international road signs
2. 24 h clock usage
3. replacing the word mileage with kilometrage (french pronounced)
4. no MM/DD/ any more replace it with -MM-DD
5. no metrication of pound/pint to 500 g/mL
1, 2 4 I support 100%. 5 I
The UK mailing list received this link. It is a poll by a weather service
seeking opinions on units for mountain heights (UK maps already give heights
in metres). Please vote for metres.
www.onlineweather.com/v4/uk/mountain/mountain_poll.html
Current results stand at metric 69%, imperial 27%,
Although deka and hecto are SI, they are unnecessary. Stick with units in 1
000s or 1 000ths to simplify use and understanding, particularly by the
general public.
If the above refers to general teaching of SI, then I must disagree. The
following are reasons why I think we should not seek to
The BSA practices discrimination in three ways:
Gender discrimination: No girls allowed
Religious discrimination: No atheist allowed
Homosexual discrimination: No homosexuals allowed (mainly as the Scout
Master)
But isn't the Girl Scout organization guilty of the first type too ?
If you mean to say that we have to believe in the fairy tale that we came from
a monkey (or, worse, an ameba... (SIC)), then I'm sorry, but I don't buy that
kind of crap (with due respect!... ;-) ).
As opposed to the fairy tale that an omnipotent being created the entire
universe in 6 days, and
The fundamental difference though between these two *beliefs* (yes, BOTH are
based on faith!) is that while *time* is evolutionists' 'god', ours is the True
God Almighty!... ;-)
NO NO NO I am not going to argue the relative merits of evolutionary
theory on this forum, but you are totally
However, Joe, it is a multiple of a submultiple, E6 x E-3 kg, a *double*
multiple in the format of powers of ten, ...
I think we are into angels-on-pin territory here. The Mg has to be at least
as valid as the familiar mg, submultiple of multiple notwithstanding. Are
you suggesting that use of
We call it the 'hash' key.
Same over here.
--
Tom Wade, EuroKom | E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (all domain mailers).
Dale House| X400: g=tom;s=wade;o=eurokom;p=eurokom;a=eirmail400;c=ie
30, Dale Road | Tel:
You don't understand, Jim. This is not about 'magic' existing in our current
base 10 system we all use, but that our brains have been proven to be made to
use base 10!!! That's the essence of the research I was talking about.
Could you cite the source of this 'proof' ?
The brain is an
No way Bill. He's serious. Aliens really did re-engineer the world and
teach us base-10.
Did you really think he was serious or something? ahhahajeez...
As a Creationist 'theory' it is no less plausible than some of those more
widely held. It is also nearly as impossible to disprove,
You are the first who has felt the appathy of students who have already
crossed their college and are NOW at cross-roads to figure out *what is
right* - micrometre or micrometer to measure distances! Likewise
litre/liter etc. Why can't the BIPM and CCU be approached to issue a
Papal like
Latest news on metric speed limits in Ireland.
Reduced speed limits could save lives, cut casualties
If the Minister for Transport really wants to cut carnage on Irish roads, he
should redefine the 30 m.p.h. speed limit as 30 k.p.h., argues Frank
McDonald, Environment Editor
This confirms my
I cannot make clear to you what I mean. I will send no letter.
Perhaps a letter simply welcoming the change to sensible units.
As for the units themselves, I am a little curious about the 30 km/h limit
in NL. This seems excessively restrictive. Do people actually drive at
that speed, or is it
X-News: picard.eurokom.ie local.usma:30062
From: Ma Be [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [USMA:23033] Re: Question about date format
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:17:17 -0800
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On this one all of us should side with the US. Indeed, Sunday IS day one of
the week, as has been so
The vast majority of people the world over use a calender with named months
(i.e., January, February, ...).
But the vast majority of people the world over use different names from those
you list above (so your i.e. should be e.g.).
We should write dates to make life easy for humans, not
As I pointed out in an earlier email, this is just a backhanded way of
forcing metrication on those who do not want it. You can stand there all
day and claim he was not punished for selling in pounds, but, in effect,
that is EXACTLY what he was prosecuted for.
He was not punished for using
Does anyone in Euroland use or say centieuros or just cents? Maybe the
Germans still call the centieuro a pfennig, no? What about writing it out?
Is it always 0.25 ? or maybe 25 c?? How is it done?
In Ireland we say thirty cent or thirty cents. Apparently the official
recommendation for
The only real issue would be how to tackle the leap year problem.
I'd be happy to consider proposals for this.
The most sensible idea I've heard for this was proposed by the late Dr Isaac
Asimov.
A year consists of 13 months, each with 28 days. Each month has 4 weeks of
7 days each, using the
A kilometre is 0.621 of a mile. However, it is thought the government will
not reset a 70mph sign at the accurate conversion of 110kph, but at 100kph
in an attempt to reduce accidents.
This is precisely the sort of woolly-headed thinking that will damage
metric transition. It is analogous to
could you provide a mail address, an e-mail address or an URL where
we could write ?
Mr Seamus Brennan TD
Minister for Transport
44, Kildare Street
Dublin 2
Ireland
Many thanks
--
Tom Wade, EuroKom | E-Mail: [EMAIL
Just a silly question? But, isn't the change in highway signs designed to
coincide with the change in speed/odometers on the new vehicles?
You'd think so, wouldn't you ?
Unfortunately, there has been absolutely no coordination between the depts
on this. The Dept of Environment had nothing to
Greetings,
It seems that the third successive deadline for metrication of speed signs in
Ireland will, like the two before it, be missed.
I contacted the Roads Section in the Dept of Transport (after the last
election in May, responsibility for roads was transferred from the Dept of
Environment
In Southern Ireland, they routinely have road signs written in both English and
Gaelic and car number plates written in exclusively Gaelic!!
Road signs are normally in both English and Irish (we don't call it Gaelic),
which are the two official languages of the state. Car plates in Ireland take
Tom Wade wrote in USMA 17518 regarding the euro:
Only Ireland, France Denmark
allowed its people a say in this very fundamental change (an issue which is far
more important than weights measures).
That is a matter of taste. Business men and scientists would differ in
their evaluations. ...
In most aspects Europe is democratic enough, but we leave
the decision making to the elected parliament. Ireland has a national
referendum, but the government did not dare to put the euro on the line.
This is not correct. Joining the common currency was part of the Maastricht
Treaty, not the
Today in France at supermarkets (highways service stations may be 10
to 20% higher) :
eurosuper (95 SAE grade) : 0,92 =A4/l
You're paying too much. Here 95% unleaded is about 81 c/L (mind you, cars
themselves are much dearer here). Still not as cheap as the US, but any
place cheaper in
I have to point that is not legal use non ASCII charachters in
Headers .
DIGRESSION
RFC-1342 defines how to encode non-ASCII characters in RFC-822 headers.
For example, the subject header line:
Subject:
Maybe we should ask our fellow subscribers to report on this back to
the list: What is the first day of the week in your country?
Ireland: Monday.
The first day of the week can hardly occur during a weekend, can it ? Sure,
it might originally have been a Sunday, but not any more (it's not
X-News: picard.eurokom.ie local.usma:23255
From: Ezra Steinberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Irish road speed signs (was: Mornin'!)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:11:17 -0800
Message-ID:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nice to see you on this list this morning.
Any bits of news on the road signage front?
No good
The European system does correspond to the SI prefixes.
1 mega = 1 million
1 giga = 1 milliard
1 tera = 1 billion
1 peta = 1 billiard
1 exa = 1 trillion
1 zetta = 1 trilliard
1 yotta = 1 quadrillion
Yes but this is achieved by sticking in extra multiples between million,
billion trillion.
justed wanted to know this curiosity in AE:
in britian an germany whe can 10^9 Milliard(e) you call it billion, why?
in germany billion means 10^12.
This is one of the areas that I think the Americans got it right. Whereas
the billion here used to mean 1 million million, it has gradually
The national currencies will be allowed until 2002-03-01 in the following
countries:
Belgien, Deutschland, Finnland, Irland, Italien, Luxenburg, Österreich,
Portugal and Spanien.
In Ireland, the Punt will cease to be legal tender after 2002-02-09, a mere
six weeks after the introduction of the
I am not aware of any official policy with the introduction of the Euro;
there seems to be no set way to place its symbol, ?. I suppose people will
stick with their current practices and write 1000 ? ...
The euro symbol can be placed on either side of the amount. In Ireland, the
symbol goes
... The 'negative side' is really far fetched. Any
increase of speed limits is insignificant indeed. In practice, a speed
limit of 30 mph and one of 50 km/h is the same. ...
Yes, this is true, but the fact that the report harped on about the increase
in speeds is not to be underestimated.
Greetings,
[note to Chris: I don't think my attempts to post to UKMA are working - I
would appreciate if you could copy it over, as I think there may be a couple
of Irish subscribers on UKMA, and it might be of interest to your UK folk too]
I received a copy of the internal report of the
To my American friends,
I wish to express my sympathy with all of you about what has happened today
in the United States.
I wish also to express my deepest sympathy to you all, and particularly to
those who have been affected personally by this tragedy.
I also share with you the sense of
Do car speedometers in Ireland have dual MPH and km/h
markings, as they do in the US? ...
All cars are fitted with dual MPH and km/h speedometers, but the outer
km/h readings are smaller, and are not really readable, which is why I've
replaced them with km/h only displays on my last two cars
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