Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 07:30 AM 7/21/2011, Damon Craig wrote: Essen and Kullander: At the end of the horizontal section there is an auxiliary electric heater to initialize the burning and also to act as a safety if the heat evolution should get out of control. This is the first mistake: presumption presented as fact. The presumption is that there exists in the device anomalous heat generation. Give me a break, he's just reporting there, the claimed function of a part of the device. No. This is the first unobjective statement within the report presenting hearsay as fact. It's simply poor science probably aggrivated by the fact that Rossi payed for their junket to Italy. However, I'm not interested in picking these poor guys apart piece by piece, combing every sentence they've written to leverage ridicule. They're going to have enough of this soon enough. They probably already know if they're monitoring anything coming out of Vortex-L. By the way, that claim of function has been ridiculed. How can a heater be used as a safety if heat evolution gets out of control. But EK were probably just reporting the claim here. After all, this part of their report was obviously not based on an observation of what happens during runaway! They seem to have garbbled something they were told. Personally, if I saw signs of runaway with this thing, I'd look for the nearest exit or object that might shield me from shrapnel. The auxiliary electric heater is used, it appears to be claimed, to control the temperature of the reaction chamber when it is operating below runaway temperature (i.e, self-maintaining temperature or anything above it). By requiring this extra heat, there is then some control of the reaction. Rossi also has added cooling power to shut the reaction down, apparently. Looks like Defkalion may be planning on using hydrogen pressure for control. Sometime this weekend I may have something closer to a definative answer on: The control of a large amout of exothermic reaction by a smaller quantity of heat and if the over unity gain claimed by Rossi is physically feasible. My aging version of MathCad has not made the job easy. However, manually changing pressure and water flow is not real time process control. These are not control methods but would be safety measures. It's all bogus anyway.
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
Essen and Kullander: At the end of the horizontal section there is an auxiliary electric heater to initialize the burning and also to act as a safety if the heat evolution should get out of control. This is the first mistake: presumption presented as fact. The presumption is that there exists in the device anomalous heat generation. However, I'm not interested in picking these poor guys apart piece by piece, combing every sentence they've written to leverage ridicule. They're going to have enough of this soon enough. They probably already know if they're monitoring anything coming out of Vortex-L. Rossi's goofball stuff is being exposed right here and now, and there is really nothing you can do to stop us from finding and writing about more irregularities. On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 03:26 PM 7/19/2011, Jed Rothwell wrote: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: In my opinion, Kullander made some mistakes, and he should simply acknowledge them and move on. Where, in his report, are these mistakes? Someone here claimed that he did not measure input power, when the report clearly states he did.
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 4:30 AM, Damon Craig decra...@gmail.com wrote: Essen and Kullander: At the end of the horizontal section there is an auxiliary electric heater to initialize the burning and also to act as a safety if the heat evolution should get out of control. This is the first mistake: presumption presented as fact. The presumption is that there exists in the device anomalous heat generation. However, I'm not interested in picking these poor guys apart piece by piece, combing every sentence they've written to leverage ridicule. They're going to have enough of this soon enough. They probably already know if they're monitoring anything coming out of Vortex-L. Rossi's goofball stuff is being exposed right here and now, and there is really nothing you can do to stop us from finding and writing about more irregularities. On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 03:26 PM 7/19/2011, Jed Rothwell wrote: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: In my opinion, Kullander made some mistakes, and he should simply acknowledge them and move on. Where, in his report, are these mistakes? Someone here claimed that he did not measure input power, when the report clearly states he did.
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
Excuse me Lomax. My last email was directed to Rothwell not yourself. This email interface is not the best mode of communication.
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
At 07:30 AM 7/21/2011, Damon Craig wrote: Essen and Kullander: At the end of the horizontal section there is an auxiliary electric heater to initialize the burning and also to act as a safety if the heat evolution should get out of control. This is the first mistake: presumption presented as fact. The presumption is that there exists in the device anomalous heat generation. Give me a break, he's just reporting there, the claimed function of a part of the device. However, I'm not interested in picking these poor guys apart piece by piece, combing every sentence they've written to leverage ridicule. They're going to have enough of this soon enough. They probably already know if they're monitoring anything coming out of Vortex-L. By the way, that claim of function has been ridiculed. How can a heater be used as a safety if heat evolution gets out of control. But EK were probably just reporting the claim here. After all, this part of their report was obviously not based on an observation of what happens during runaway! Personally, if I saw signs of runaway with this thing, I'd look for the nearest exit or object that might shield me from shrapnel. The auxiliary electric heater is used, it appears to be claimed, to control the temperature of the reaction chamber when it is operating below runaway temperature (i.e, self-maintaining temperature or anything above it). By requiring this extra heat, there is then some control of the reaction. Rossi also has added cooling power to shut the reaction down, apparently. Looks like Defkalion may be planning on using hydrogen pressure for control.
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
No, not critics. The director of those Swedish physicists denied there was a contract, Rossi also denied that, and in fact what will happen is a collaboration of the professors of Bologna and Uppsal to develop the e-cat.
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
Original-Nachricht Datum: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:54:26 -0300 Von: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Betreff: Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic? No, not critics. The director of those Swedish physicists denied there was a contract, Rossi also denied that, and in fact what will happen is a collaboration of the professors of Bologna and Uppsal to develop the e-cat. sorry Daniel, did you read the article of Ugo Bardi? Did you understand it? Angela -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
Not really, but it refers to a post of Krivit. We discussed that last week :)
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
This is what he writes: In realtà, sembra che a Uppsala ci stiano nettamente ripensando. Io stesso avevo scritto la settimana scorsa ai miei colleghi di Uppsala per sentire come andavano le cose. Avevo sentito parlare di un accordo con Rossi per fare un test di uno degli E-cat, ma i colleghi mi hanno risposto che non c’era nessun accordo, nessun E-cat era sottoposto a dei test a Upssala e che il prof. Kullander era stato fortemente criticato per la leggerezza con la quale aveva approvato il lavoro di Rossi e Focardi senza dati sufficienti in proposito. Sembrerebbe che Kullander, in privato, abbia avuto un netto ripensamento. Using all my efforts to translate it into dirty english: in reality, it seems that in Uppsala they are changing minds. I, myself, wrote an email to my collegues last week in order to know what was happening there. I heard about a contract [accordo] with Rossi to perform a test with an Ecat, but my collegues answered to me that there is no contract at all and that no test was done in Uppsala and that prof. Kullander was sverly critizised for his flippancy with which he approved Rossis and Focardis work without having enough data. It looks as if Kullander, in a private way, changed mind. citation from: http://www.ecoblog.it/post/12879/e-cat-fusione-fredda-secondo-ugo-bardi-aspo-non-ce-alcun-accordo-tra-rossi-e-luniversita-di-uppsala -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
This is not very different from what Krivit did...
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
Angela, The article does not say much. As a matter of fact Bardi does not give any scientific fact to confirm what he has written, just rumors hence just blather on which he bases his bufala (scam) assumption. You can find him on some rainews interviews posted earlier on this list. The guy is never to the point actually he seems to know very little about LENR... As side note it seem that the blog where Bardi writes is sponsored by renewable energy companies whose interest conflicts with even the chance that a new energy source appears. Could be maketing FUD technique? Mic Il giorno 19/lug/2011 17:59, Angela Kemmler angela.kemm...@gmx.de ha scritto: Original-Nachricht Datum: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:54:26 -0300 Von: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Betreff: Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic? No, not critics. The director of those Swedish physicists denied there was a contract, Rossi also denied that, and in fact what will happen is a collaboration of the professors of Bologna and Uppsal to develop the e-cat. sorry Daniel, did you read the article of Ugo Bardi? Did you understand it? Angela -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
At 12:49 PM 7/19/2011, Michele Comitini wrote: Angela, The article does not say much.  As a matter of fact Bardi does not give any scientific fact to confirm what he has written, just rumors hence just blather on which he bases his bufala (scam) assumption. You can find him on some rainews interviews posted earlier on this list. The guy is never to the point actually he seems to know very little about LENR... As side note it seem that the blog where Bardi writes is sponsored by renewable energy companies whose interest conflicts with even the chance that a new energy source appears. Could be maketing FUD technique? The report claims private conversation with Kullander, who has been strangely silent on the Rossi affair for quite some time. It's plausible, but obviously proof of nothing. In my opinion, Kullander made some mistakes, and he should simply acknowledge them and move on. Simple, clean and clear. He reported what he saw and based some speculations on that, without having thoroughly investigated, that's all. However, his name is being used, directly or hidden under Swedish professors, and I really do think it's his obligation to either back up and back out, or stand firmly behind what he wrote and said. What I'm aware of as problems are the steam quality measurement that wasn't, a minor thing, probably, but more importantly the lack of any verification of the assertion that all water was vaporized. There are minor details about water flow, etc., and, given the situation, more stringent qualification of what he saw, because there are possible fraud scenarios that were absolutely not ruled out. What I've come to is that what Kullander and Essen reported in their published report was inadequate to establish the claimed power. There are reasons, in that report, to suspect some level of generated power, that's about it. Even that could possibly be an error, it's inferred, not soundly established as would be the case by actually measuring the enthalpy of outlet water/steam.
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: In my opinion, Kullander made some mistakes, and he should simply acknowledge them and move on. Where, in his report, are these mistakes? Someone here claimed that he did not measure input power, when the report clearly states he did. Simple, clean and clear. He reported what he saw and based some speculations on that, without having thoroughly investigated, that's all. I see no evidence for that. What I'm aware of as problems are the steam quality measurement that wasn't, a minor thing, probably . . An imaginary thing. You believe it, he doesn't. Don't blame him because he disagrees with you, and do not assume he is wrong. You and others here have convinced yourselves there are problems where no problems exist. First you dream up something that might be wrong. Then you assume it is wrong. Then you assume EK did not address it -- when in most cases their report shows they did. You get carried away by your own imagination, in a dialog with yourself, the way Groucho Marx as president of Freedonia went to war: http://www.anyclip.com/movies/duck-soup/right-hand-of-good-fellowship/ *Rufus T. Firefly http://www.imdb.com/name/nm050/*: I'd be unworthy of the high trust that's been placed in me if I didn't do everything in my power to keep our beloved Freedonia in peace with the world. I'd be only too happy to meet with Ambassador Trentino, and offer him on behalf of my country the right hand of good fellowship. And I feel sure he will accept this gesture in the spirit of which it is offered. But suppose he doesn't. A fine thing that'll be. I hold out my hand and he refuses to accept. That'll add a lot to my prestige, won't it? Me, the head of a country, snubbed by a foreign ambassador. Who does he think he is, that he can come here, and make a sap of me in front of all my people? Think of it - I hold out my hand and that hyena refuses to accept. Why, the cheap four-flushing swine, he'll never get away with it I tell you, he'll never get away with it. [/Trentino enters/] *Rufus T. Firefly http://www.imdb.com/name/nm050/*: So, you refuse to shake hands with me, eh? [/slaps Trentino with his glove/] - Jed
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: In my opinion, Kullander made some mistakes, and he should simply acknowledge them and move on. Where, in his report, are these mistakes? Someone here claimed that he did not measure input power, when the report clearly states he did. He measured it at the beginning. He didn't check it after that, as far as we know. Simple, clean and clear. He reported what he saw and based some speculations on that, without having thoroughly investigated, that's all. I see no evidence for that. He said the steam was dry by visual inspection. That's not a thorough investigation. And a RH measurement is worse than a joke. What I'm aware of as problems are the steam quality measurement that wasn't, a minor thing, probably . . An imaginary thing. You believe it, he doesn't. You mean he didn't. I would not presume to suggest he has not since been educated by many embarrassed Swedes.
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
At 03:26 PM 7/19/2011, Jed Rothwell wrote: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: In my opinion, Kullander made some mistakes, and he should simply acknowledge them and move on. Where, in his report, are these mistakes? Someone here claimed that he did not measure input power, when the report clearly states he did. He measured input power at one point, he did not measure it continously. You know an odd thing? Jed actually claims that Rossi adjusts the input power, in order to match boiloff, so that the E-cat neither overflows nor runs dry. Really? Input power is being varied? Then ... how do we know what it is if we don't measure it for the whole demonstration? So that we are talking about the same thing, here's the report in question: http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3144960.ece/BINARY/Download+the+report+by+Kullander+and+Ess%C3%A9n+%28pdf%29. This report only mentions measuring input power at turn-on. Not later. Small point, but an important one. Some unstated assumptions are being made. Simple, clean and clear. He reported what he saw and based some speculations on that, without having thoroughly investigated, that's all. I see no evidence for that. What I'm aware of as problems are the steam quality measurement that wasn't, a minor thing, probably . . An imaginary thing. You believe it, he doesn't. Don't blame him because he disagrees with you, and do not assume he is wrong. He has not disagreed with me. Jed, you have disagreed with me, he has not. He made a statement, I'll quote it. I disagree with it, as to what it implies. I am, thus, disagreeing with his statement, not exactly with him. He has not responded to this criticism of his statement. Therefore he cannot be said to have disagreed with it. You've confused your own intepretations with the truth. Mistake. Here is what he wrote about steam quality: Between 11:00 and 12:00 oclock, control measurements were done on how much water that had not evaporated. The system to measure the non-evaporated water was a certified Testo System, Testo 650, with a probe guaranteed to resist up to 550°C. The measurements showed that at 11:15 1.4% of the water was non-vaporized, at 11:30 1.3% and at 11:45 1.2% of the water was non-vaporized. The energy produced inside the device is calculated to be (1.000-0.013)(16:30-10:45)4.39 =25 kWh. I'll repeat the issue. A Testo System, as described, cannot measure the non-evaporated water, apparently. Lots of people have pointed out the problem. That's a relative humidity meter, and measuring steam quality is complex and difficult. The meter has a scale that will read g/m^3 for water vapor, but this is, apparently, reading the content of the vapor, and there is no way to relate this to steam quality; that is, steam of any quality, at a certain temperature and pressure, will read the same. It's a calculated value. So my first question for Kullander, Exactly how did you use the Testo device, which does not have a steam quality function, a function that will express total quantity of unevaporated water (how could it?), to determine the quantity of non-evaporated water. The second problem with this is that it would completely miss any liquid water runoff. We know, from the other tests (such as the Krivit video and the Mats Lewan report), that there is water in the hose. Is this condensed water (representing evaporated water later condensed) or is this runoff water? To the extent that there is any runoff water, overflow, the calculation of energy produced will be erroneous, overestimating the energy. I see no sign that the two forms of outlet water have been discriminated, therefore we have no information (or incomplete information) on how much water ... had not evaporated. Jed, I see no sign that Kullander has responded to this anywhere. That means that there is no basis for your claim that he disagrees. The recent blog post quoted here actually provides a rumor that he is privately backing off. That *is* just a rumor, but there is more basis for it, in fact, than your statement that Kullander disagrees. Have you spoken to him, do you have information to pass along like that? You and others here have convinced yourselves there are problems where no problems exist. First you dream up something that might be wrong. Then you assume it is wrong. Then you assume EK did not address it -- when in most cases their report shows they did. You get carried away by your own imagination, in a dialog with yourself, the way Groucho Marx as president of Freedonia went to war: Cool. I love Groucho Marx, I'm glad to be like him in some way. EK did not address the issues in the report. If they did, I've missed it. There may have been an opportunity to address the issues in the brief interview with Krivit, but Krivit didn't ask the necessary questions, instead getting stuck on this silly volume thing, a total red herring. If EK did
