Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Bob Higgins]

I remember reading the spec for the flow meter that was used.  While it may
have had mechanical digit readings that were that coarse, the flow meter
has an available electronic option that provides a pulse for each turn of
the internal rotor which corresponds to about 1 liter of flow (again
recollection).  It could be an upset/surprise if Penon testifies that he
used electronic monitoring of the flow meter.  Still it does not account
for the uniform and coarse flows reported each day.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> David Roberson  wrote:
>
> Does your diagram show how the floating device in the system tank controls
>> the intake water flowing into it?
>
>
> Nope. I do not know why. Maybe the diagram is too abstract for this. Or it
> is wrong . . . or it shows another version of the setup?
>
>
>
>> Also, does it show that the customer feed tank is located above the
>> system feed tank so that water flowing into the second or system tank
>> literally falls into it?
>
>
> Nope. No such detail. But people tell me that's how it worked.
>
> Of course, even with a gravity return, it would be possible to ensure the
> flow meter works right. But I have heard Rossi did not do this.
>
> Also, you can see from the specs that this is the wrong kind of flow
> meter. It makes no sense to use an instrument the measures only 36 units
> per day. It should measure thousands. In other words, where the flow is
> supposedly 6 gallons per minute, the instrument should measure a fraction
> of a gallon so that it "clicks" over the smallest unit of measurement
> several times a minute, not once every 40 minutes.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Jed Rothwell]

David Roberson  wrote:

Does your diagram show how the floating device in the system tank controls
> the intake water flowing into it?


Nope. I do not know why. Maybe the diagram is too abstract for this. Or it
is wrong . . . or it shows another version of the setup?



> Also, does it show that the customer feed tank is located above the system
> feed tank so that water flowing into the second or system tank literally
> falls into it?


Nope. No such detail. But people tell me that's how it worked.

Of course, even with a gravity return, it would be possible to ensure the
flow meter works right. But I have heard Rossi did not do this.

Also, you can see from the specs that this is the wrong kind of flow meter.
It makes no sense to use an instrument the measures only 36 units per day.
It should measure thousands. In other words, where the flow is supposedly 6
gallons per minute, the instrument should measure a fraction of a gallon so
that it "clicks" over the smallest unit of measurement several times a
minute, not once every 40 minutes.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Jed Rothwell]

Peter Gluck  wrote:


> Penon simply says flowmeter between JMP plant and E-Cats and anybody
> who has seen a plant knows ab ovo it MUST be immediately after the pump
> water flow measured, injected in the E-Cats
>

No, that is not what Penon says. Here is the circuit:

1 Reservoir => 2 Pumps => 3 E-cat => 4 Customer Plant => 5 Condenser => 6
Gravity return => 7 Reservoir

Penon explicitly says "flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling
water inlet into the shelter. It is located along the line of return of the
water. between the Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat."

That is item 6.

You are saying it is located between items 2 and 3. That is before the JMP
plant. Penon *specifically*, *clearly* says it is at point 6, between the
"plant of the customer" and "the 1 MW E-Cat." That is also where Rossi's
schematic shows it.

What you say is *directly contradicted* by what Penon wrote.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[David Roberson]

Jed,

Does your diagram show how the floating device in the system tank controls the 
intake water flowing into it?  Also, does it show that the customer feed tank 
is located above the system feed tank so that water flowing into the second or 
system tank literally falls into it?  There are a multitude of possible 
connections.  I am attempting to visualize exactly how this occurs.

Dave

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com>
To: Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Tue, Feb 21, 2017 10:07 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter




Peter Gluck <peter.gl...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Question: do yu have information from Rossi or you have the piping
diagram of the plant showing clearly and exactly (as position) where
in the gravity return pipe was placed the flowmeter?



This information is from Rossi! He uploaded these statements by Penon. I have 
this, and I also have a diagram showing the same thing, with the flow meter in 
the gravity return pipe.


Are you saying you don't believe Rossi and Penon when they tell you where they 
put the flow meter?


 

Can you ke a look and tell where was placed the main pump (for 1500
kg/hour- floating in the air or firmly placed on the ground?



There were many pumps, but they could not produce this much flow.
 

 

In any case NOT measuring the flow of water which enters directly 
to the generators and using a 25 times undersized pipe for steam are fatal 
flaws and if your favorite author Murray got it right than he is the diamond 
witness for IH.



This statement is from Rossi and Penon, not Murray. THEY TOLD YOU where they 
put the flow meter. It says:


The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools up to 
its condensation – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet 
into the shelter. 



 

 On the contrary if he errs than he is just a plant illiterate
trying to find imaginary things- doing harm fo those who have paid him.



It is not imaginary. This is a document from Rossi filed in the lawsuit.
 
 

If you have such a ardent desire to contradict my assertions, show the diagram 
and..finita la commedia! 



Why do you need a diagram when you have text from Rossi describing this? Why 
don't you believe Rossi?


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[a.ashfield]

Jones,

This seems a typical negative piece from you.
I'm not a lawyer but I understand there are other ways to get the ERV's 
report entered as evidence, besides having Penon show up.


Why do you say Rossi would make a bad impression in court?  Everyone who 
has met him (IH excepted) say he is courteous and makes a favorable 
impression.


AA

On 2/21/2017 10:36 AM, Jones Beene wrote:
Speaking of Penon, or should I say the absence of Penon, has anyone 
considered the rules of evidence in Federal Court for getting that ERV 
report into evidence?


As it stands now, Penon - who is the supposed expert who collected the 
data and wrote the report is unavailable to appear for deposition. 
This means that the data in the ERV report may not be entered into 
evidence at a trial, which means that the case will have to be 
dismissed... since the contract revolves directly around that report 
and its validity. But there are strict rules for admission of 
evidence, more so for criminal trials but also for civil and generally 
it would seem that Penon must appear in order to have his report 
allowed into evidence at all.


In fact, an eventual dismissal of the case, after maximizing the 
delays as long as possible - looks like a *desired outcome *from the 
Rossi perspective. He then can then blame both IH and the legal system 
as well as Krivit and so on. But the drama drags on - kind of a cross 
between Seinfeld, a "show about nothing" and The Leftovers, which is a 
warped take on what it means to have faith. Rossigate is about warped 
faith, no doubt there.


The one thing Rossi does not want is to risk a jury which rules 
against him. He would not be a believable witness with his ego and 
temperament, and a good lawyer will tear him to shreds on the stand. 
He expected to settle in the beginning (probably getting bad legal 
advice) - but IH refused and now Rossi cannot walk away without 
looking bad ... but without Penon, a favorable jury verdict is 
probably not possible due to the problem of getting the report 
admitted at all, not to mention the dubious details.


Bottom line: additional reliable information on the science of Ni-H  
will probably not be forthcoming to the public this year and further 
delay is anticipated. Rossi may be content to leave everything in 
limbo and claim to be a victim of greedy investors. That may work to 
his benefit for the next round in another location.


A nebulous outcome would allow him to look for new backers in Europe 
or Russia. The suckers who invested $20 million in Steorn - a 
completely obvious scam, are still out there.


But if a jury rules against him, the party is over. Do not hold your 
breath for a June trial.

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Peter Gluck]

Jed,

Penon simply says flowmeter between JMP plant and E-Cats and anybody
who has seen a plant knows ab ovo it MUST be immediately after the pump
water flow measured, injected in the E-Cats

 on JONP Rossi said more times piping forms U flowmeter down- standard
engineering

you say- "many pumps, but they could not produce this much flow."
Much flow, 6.6 gallons per minute, 25kg/minute too much...were you awake
when you wrote this? (I know you are not drinking too much alcohol so the
explanation must be something bad)

Next discussion with you when you have the diagram. Waeted time is not
recoverable..

I must confess I am in very bad mood have to write a Blog nd no LENR papers
have arrived today, in no language. Desperation! Few LENR related papers &
news. But it is early, I still hope.

peter

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 6:27 PM, a.ashfield  wrote:

> Jed,
> I thought you said earlier that you had the plumbing layout but were not
> allowed to show it.  If so, there should be no doubt about whether there
> is  U in the system.
>
> AA
>
> On 2/20/2017 8:41 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> There has been some discussion here about the position of the flow meter
> in Rossi's configuration. I have information from Rossi showing it was
> located in the gravity return between the customer site and the reservoir.
> I do not think there was a U pipe but I cannot rule that out 100%. Nothing
> like that is shown and no one who was there told me there is one -- and I
> did ask. Anyway, Abd pointed out that Penon described the configuration in
> one of the lawsuit documents. It is a little hard to understand Penon's
> English, so Abd added the comments in square brackets:
>
> Quote
>
> The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools
>> up to its condensation. *
>>
>> – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the
>> shelter. It is located along the line of return of the water. between the
>> Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat.
>
>
>
>> The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the Plant, that
>> receives the water from an external plant [sic, “tank”].
>>
>
>
>> It is conveyed by pumps in [sic, “into”] the unit’s E-cat[s], where it is
>> heated to vaporize. The steam is collected in one tube of the steam line,
>> which conveys it to the outside of the shelter.
>>
>
>
>> The water is so recycled to the internal [sic, external] tank in a closed
>> loop. The water is distilled water.
>>
>
>
>> The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a water line
>> and a floating valve, so that the level of water inside the internal tank
>> is maintained constant. The water flows from the external tank to the
>> internal tank by gravity. […]
>>
>
>
> * Note from Jed: "Cools up to its condensation" means it cools down until
> it condenses.
>
> This contradicts assertions by Peter Gluck.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>


-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[a.ashfield]

Jed,
I thought you said earlier that you had the plumbing layout but were not 
allowed to show it.  If so, there should be no doubt about whether there 
is  U in the system.


AA

On 2/20/2017 8:41 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
There has been some discussion here about the position of the flow 
meter in Rossi's configuration. I have information from Rossi showing 
it was located in the gravity return between the customer site and the 
reservoir. I do not think there was a U pipe but I cannot rule that 
out 100%. Nothing like that is shown and no one who was there told me 
there is one -- and I did ask. Anyway, Abd pointed out that Penon 
described the configuration in one of the lawsuit documents. It is a 
little hard to understand Penon's English, so Abd added the comments 
in square brackets:


Quote

The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it
cools up to its condensation. *

– flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet
into the shelter. It is located along the line of return of the
water. between the Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat.

The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the Plant,
that receives the water from an external plant [sic, “tank”].

It is conveyed by pumps in [sic, “into”] the unit’s E-cat[s],
where it is heated to vaporize. The steam is collected in one tube
of the steam line, which conveys it to the outside of the shelter.

The water is so recycled to the internal [sic, external] tank in a
closed loop. The water is distilled water.

The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a water
line and a floating valve, so that the level of water inside the
internal tank is maintained constant. The water flows from the
external tank to the internal tank by gravity. […]



* Note from Jed: "Cools up to its condensation" means it cools down 
until it condenses.


This contradicts assertions by Peter Gluck.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Jones Beene]

Speaking of Penon, or should I say the absence of Penon, has anyone 
considered the rules of evidence in Federal Court for getting that ERV 
report into evidence?


As it stands now, Penon - who is the supposed expert who collected the 
data and wrote the report is unavailable to appear for deposition. This 
means that the data in the ERV report may not be entered into evidence 
at a trial, which means that the case will have to be dismissed... since 
the contract revolves directly around that report and its validity. But 
there are strict rules for admission of evidence, more so for criminal 
trials but also for civil and generally it would seem that Penon must 
appear in order to have his report allowed into evidence at all.


In fact, an eventual dismissal of the case, after maximizing the delays 
as long as possible - looks like a *desired outcome *from the Rossi 
perspective. He then can then blame both IH and the legal system as well 
as Krivit and so on. But the drama drags on - kind of a cross between 
Seinfeld, a "show about nothing" and The Leftovers, which is a warped 
take on what it means to have faith. Rossigate is about warped faith, no 
doubt there.


The one thing Rossi does not want is to risk a jury which rules against 
him. He would not be a believable witness with his ego and temperament, 
and a good lawyer will tear him to shreds on the stand. He expected to 
settle in the beginning (probably getting bad legal advice) - but IH 
refused and now Rossi cannot walk away without looking bad ... but 
without Penon, a favorable jury verdict is probably not possible due to 
the problem of getting the report admitted at all, not to mention the 
dubious details.


Bottom line: additional reliable information on the science of Ni-H will 
probably not be forthcoming to the public this year and further delay is 
anticipated. Rossi may be content to leave everything in limbo and claim 
to be a victim of greedy investors. That may work to his benefit for the 
next round in another location.


A nebulous outcome would allow him to look for new backers in Europe or 
Russia. The suckers who invested $20 million in Steorn - a completely 
obvious scam, are still out there.


But if a jury rules against him, the party is over. Do not hold your 
breath for a June trial.

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Stephen Cooke]

Jed

So changing "external plant" to "external tank" and changing "internal tank " 
to "external tank" is correcting bad English... Uhhh okaayy ??

The internal tank was inside the E-Cat plant not the external one.

I'm not going to get drawn into childish bickering. I intend to wait from now 
on for real data not opinions and if that is not forthcoming then I wait with 
curiosity for the Judgement.


Sent from my iPhone

On 21 Feb 2017, at 16:12, Jed Rothwell 
> wrote:

Stephen Cooke > 
wrote:

Jed.. nice square bracketing.

As I said, that was added by Abd. I do not know where the original document is 
in the lawsuit papers.


What if we remove those... and assume the ERV's English is fine.

It isn't fine! It is difficult to understand.


Have you considered the external tank could be located at the external plant 
close to the condensor?

No, the diagram shows where it is. The condenser in the walled-off customer 
site. The reservoir is inside the shipping container. At least, that's what 
Rossi showed, and that is what I have heard.


In fact everything we say is speculation and can be interpreted how we want 
depending how we want to read it especially if we change the words someone says 
to support it.

It is not "speculation"! That's absurd. There are words directly from Rossi, 
uploaded in the lawsuit. If he is lying here it is a serious matter.

You have this directly from the horse's mouth yet you still don't believe it? 
How much proof can you ask for? Why would Rossi lie and tell the court the flow 
meter was installed in the gravity return pipe if that were not true?


I wait with anticipation for the flow diagram.

Why do you need it? Rossi and Penon already told you what is in it. If you 
don't believe what they wrote, why would you believe their diagram showing the 
same thing?

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Jed Rothwell]

Stephen Cooke  wrote:

Jed.. nice square bracketing.
>

As I said, that was added by Abd. I do not know where the original document
is in the lawsuit papers.



> What if we remove those... and assume the ERV's English is fine.
>

It isn't fine! It is difficult to understand.



> Have you considered the external tank could be located at the external
> plant close to the condensor?
>

No, the diagram shows where it is. The condenser in the walled-off customer
site. The reservoir is inside the shipping container. At least, that's what
Rossi showed, and that is what I have heard.



> In fact everything we say is speculation and can be interpreted how we
> want depending how we want to read it especially if we change the words
> someone says to support it.
>

It is not "speculation"! That's absurd. There are words directly from
Rossi, uploaded in the lawsuit. If he is lying here it is a serious matter.

You have this directly from the horse's mouth yet you still don't believe
it? How much proof can you ask for? Why would Rossi lie and tell the court
the flow meter was installed in the gravity return pipe if that were not
true?



> I wait with anticipation for the flow diagram.
>

Why do you need it? Rossi and Penon already told you what is in it. If you
don't believe what they wrote, why would you believe their diagram showing
the same thing?

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Jed Rothwell]

Peter Gluck  wrote:


> Question: do yu have information from Rossi or you have the piping
> diagram of the plant showing clearly and exactly (as position) where
> in the gravity return pipe was placed the flowmeter?
>

This information is from Rossi! He uploaded these statements by Penon. I
have this, and I also have a diagram showing the same thing, with the flow
meter in the gravity return pipe.

Are you saying you don't believe Rossi and Penon when they tell you where
they put the flow meter?



> Can you ke a look and tell where was placed the main pump (for 1500
> kg/hour- floating in the air or firmly placed on the ground?
>

There were many pumps, but they could not produce this much flow.



> In any case NOT measuring the flow of water which enters directly
> to the generators and using a 25 times undersized pipe for steam are fatal
> flaws and if your favorite author Murray got it right than he is the
> diamond witness for IH.
>

This statement is from Rossi and Penon, not Murray. THEY TOLD YOU where
they put the flow meter. It says:

The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools up
to its condensation – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling
water inlet into the shelter.



> On the contrary if he errs than he is just a plant illiterate
> trying to find imaginary things- doing harm fo those who have paid him.
>

It is not imaginary. This is a document from Rossi filed in the lawsuit.



> If you have such a ardent desire to contradict my assertions, show the
> diagram and..finita la commedia!
>

Why do you need a diagram when you have text from Rossi describing this?
Why don't you believe Rossi?

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Stephen Cooke]

Jed.. nice square bracketing.

What if we remove those... and assume the ERV's English is fine.

Have you considered the external tank could be located at the external plant 
close to the condensor?

In fact everything we say is speculation and can be interpreted how we want 
depending how we want to read it especially if we change the words someone says 
to support it.

I wait with anticipation for the flow diagram.

On 21 Feb 2017, at 10:47, Peter Gluck 
> wrote:

This was dicussed already twice but DeJavu is a reality (see
my blog today about the psychological phenomenon).
Question: do yu have information from Rossi or you have the piping
diagram of the plant showing clearly and exactly (as position) where
in the gravity return pipe was placed the flowmeter?
Can you ke a look and tell where was placed the main pump (for 1500
kg/hour- floating in the air or firmly placed on the ground?

In any case NOT measuring the flow of water which enters directly
to the generators and using a 25 times undersized pipe for steam are fatal 
flaws and if your favorite author Murray got it right than he is the diamond 
witness for IH. On the contrary if he errs than he is just a plant illiterate
trying to find imaginary things- doing harm fo those who have paid him.

If you have such a ardent desire to contradict my assertions, show the diagram 
and..finita la commedia!
It happens I know steam is able to condense from practice and books.

peter

ps Do you have amnesia regarding the persons who all stated the
flowmeter was used to quadruple the flow? You tell sensational things and we 
have to believe you

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Jed Rothwell 
> wrote:
There has been some discussion here about the position of the flow meter in 
Rossi's configuration. I have information from Rossi showing it was located in 
the gravity return between the customer site and the reservoir. I do not think 
there was a U pipe but I cannot rule that out 100%. Nothing like that is shown 
and no one who was there told me there is one -- and I did ask. Anyway, Abd 
pointed out that Penon described the configuration in one of the lawsuit 
documents. It is a little hard to understand Penon's English, so Abd added the 
comments in square brackets:

Quote

The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools up to 
its condensation. *

– flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the 
shelter. It is located along the line of return of the water. between the Plant 
of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat.

The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the Plant, that 
receives the water from an external plant [sic, “tank”].

It is conveyed by pumps in [sic, “into”] the unit’s E-cat[s], where it is 
heated to vaporize. The steam is collected in one tube of the steam line, which 
conveys it to the outside of the shelter.

The water is so recycled to the internal [sic, external] tank in a closed loop. 
The water is distilled water.

The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a water line and a 
floating valve, so that the level of water inside the internal tank is 
maintained constant. The water flows from the external tank to the internal 
tank by gravity. […]


* Note from Jed: "Cools up to its condensation" means it cools down until it 
condenses.

This contradicts assertions by Peter Gluck.

- Jed




--
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:Penon described the position of flow meter

[Peter Gluck]

This was dicussed already twice but DeJavu is a reality (see
my blog today about the psychological phenomenon).
Question: do yu have information from Rossi or you have the piping
diagram of the plant showing clearly and exactly (as position) where
in the gravity return pipe was placed the flowmeter?
Can you ke a look and tell where was placed the main pump (for 1500
kg/hour- floating in the air or firmly placed on the ground?

In any case NOT measuring the flow of water which enters directly
to the generators and using a 25 times undersized pipe for steam are fatal
flaws and if your favorite author Murray got it right than he is the
diamond witness for IH. On the contrary if he errs than he is just a plant
illiterate
trying to find imaginary things- doing harm fo those who have paid him.

If you have such a ardent desire to contradict my assertions, show the
diagram and..finita la commedia!
It happens I know steam is able to condense from practice and books.

peter

ps Do you have amnesia regarding the persons who all stated the
flowmeter was used to quadruple the flow? You tell sensational things and
we have to believe you

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> There has been some discussion here about the position of the flow meter
> in Rossi's configuration. I have information from Rossi showing it was
> located in the gravity return between the customer site and the reservoir.
> I do not think there was a U pipe but I cannot rule that out 100%. Nothing
> like that is shown and no one who was there told me there is one -- and I
> did ask. Anyway, Abd pointed out that Penon described the configuration in
> one of the lawsuit documents. It is a little hard to understand Penon's
> English, so Abd added the comments in square brackets:
>
> Quote
>
> The steam is then passed through the customer’s facility, where it cools
>> up to its condensation. *
>>
>> – flowmeter for measuring the flow rate of cooling water inlet into the
>> shelter. It is located along the line of return of the water. between the
>> Plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat.
>
>
>
>> The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the Plant, that
>> receives the water from an external plant [sic, “tank”].
>>
>
>
>> It is conveyed by pumps in [sic, “into”] the unit’s E-cat[s], where it is
>> heated to vaporize. The steam is collected in one tube of the steam line,
>> which conveys it to the outside of the shelter.
>>
>
>
>> The water is so recycled to the internal [sic, external] tank in a closed
>> loop. The water is distilled water.
>>
>
>
>> The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a water line
>> and a floating valve, so that the level of water inside the internal tank
>> is maintained constant. The water flows from the external tank to the
>> internal tank by gravity. […]
>>
>
>
> * Note from Jed: "Cools up to its condensation" means it cools down until
> it condenses.
>
> This contradicts assertions by Peter Gluck.
>
> - Jed
>
>


-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com