From: Jon Tan
I think that for any agent the semantic way to separate
address lines would
be using a comma at the end of each line as appropriate,
which regardless of
what mark-up was used would be interpreted correctly by
screen readers.
Doesn't this also apply to non-CSS agents
On 10/10/05 3:38 PM, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Read this aloud:
909 anystreet
ithaca, new york
Did you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need
to make the line break obvious to the screen reader.
For this address it doesn't matter, but for
sense
R
-
Original Message -
From:
Christian
Montoya
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK
so someone pointed out that
I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below
I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br:
pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr /
The Secretarybr /
Your Clubbr /
. This is usually presented by a symbol at the
end of the first line ( or some such)
Any other examples?
R
- Original Message -
From: Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:47 AM
Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
I'm
Hi Hope,
There is nothing evil about the br element unless one is using it for visual
effect. In your example, you are using br correctly. For addresses, you might
want to use the address element instead of p.
Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com
Original Message
From: Hope
The one thing that jumps immediately to my mind is poetry where the linebreak has serious semantic value.
Another might be for code snippets where the author wants to indicate thatthe actaull code continues on one line but is broken up in his example fordeomnstration / readability. This is usually
Richard Czeiger wrote:
I think the bigger question is can someone proivde an example of when
best to use the br / tag in general?
What type of content semantically requires a line break.
- Original Message - From: Hope Stewart
I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br:
Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:47 PM
Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below
I'm unsure whether I should
Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:
Hi Hope,
There is nothing evil about the br element unless one is using it for visual effect. In your
example, you are using br correctly. For addresses, you might want to use the address
element instead of p.
Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com
I
Hope Stewart wrote:
pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr /
The Secretarybr /
Your Clubbr /
PO Box 999br /
Anytown VIC 3000/p
This may be a good case for an address tag:
pAll correspondence should be addressed to:/p
address
spanThe Secretary/span
spanYour Club/span
On 10/10/05 9:47 AM, Jon Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tantek Celik talks about the address and br / tags in his Elements of
Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here:
http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view
I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used
only
Jon Tan said:
My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual
effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then
style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically
useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat:
pAll correspondence should be addressed to:/p
address
spanThe Secretary/span
spanYour Club/span
spanPO Box 999/span
spanAnytown VIC 3000/span
/address
a) This is IMHO not good use for an address element (context matters).
b) spans? Why? The're inline and they're overhead here.
--
Jan Brasna
Hope Stewart wrote:
How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it
should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But
if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one
line from the next?
Non-CSS browsers dictates where to use br /
span has absolutely no semantic value, so unless you are going to apply
formatting to each constiuent of the address, or you are going to use the
hcard microformat I really see no point in adding page weight simply to
avoid using a br / element of two.
kind regards
Terrence Wood.
The hCard
I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used
only for information about the author, not for various adddresses that
might
be listed on a Contact Us page. I don't recall what he said about br.
I'll
have to download the podcast and listen to it again -- it will be a
Hope Stewart wrote:
I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used
only for information about the author
Which holds true if the address is used to mark up:
- the contact information for the current site (e.g. if it's a corporate
site and you're giving the company's
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:47:42 +0100, Jon Tan wrote:
My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual
effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then
style span{display:block} with CSS.
Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not
Mike Brown wrote:
Ok, I'll bite and ask why would you not use br / in the address
example above? Aren't the semantics of an address that the different
elements are (usually) on separate lines?
You answered your own question: Parts of an address are *usually*, but
*not always*, written on
pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr /
The Secretarybr /
Your Clubbr /
PO Box 999br /
Anytown VIC 3000/p
How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should
be
contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were
using
a screen reader,
If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me.
Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html
The ADDRESS element specifies such information as address, signature and
authorship for the current document, and typically placed at the top or
bottom of the document. When used with %text,
Terrence Wood wrote:
span has absolutely no semantic value,
That's not quite true. The spans used in the previous examples do have
semantic value: they group together parts of an address. Admittedly,
that might not be much, but it's not nothing.
Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a
div in the first place? What are we gaining that I have missed?
Hi Lea,
The span use instead of div was to allow for semantic class names as per
http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also personal preference
Graham Cook wrote:
If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me.
Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html
Sure, back in March 1995 when HTML 3.0 was released as a recommendation.
**
The discussion list for
If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me.
Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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09/10/2005
Hi Graham
Without being pedantic, you're
Lea de Groot wrote:
Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a
div in the first place? What are we gaining that I have missed?
It's invalid:
!ELEMENT address %Inline;
**
The discussion list for
Jon Tan wrote:
The span use instead of div was to allow for semantic class names
as per http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also
personal preference but I would always seek to minimise the block
level grouping elements in my mark-up.
span or div, if the purpose of wrapping
itself - check out what's happening
over here!
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976
R :o)
- Original Message -
From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:18:51 +0200, Mordechai Peller wrote:
It's invalid:
!ELEMENT address %Inline;
What? No, this is used instead of an address element.
No one suggested we should put divs inside an address.
Jon's reply of matching the hcard microformat is a good one :) Thank
you, Jon.
span or div, if the purpose of wrapping these lines is just to make them
behave as block elements, then why not wrapping only 2 our of 4?
If it was pure presenation, sure, but this was with reference to sematics. A
hCard (which was the original idea of the reply) needs more:
Jon Tan wrote:
It's arguable whether address applies to the whole resource or just
a document within it,
In many cases, the contact information for a document and that of its
site are the same. This is especially true on a Contact Us or an
About Us type page.
I need to rephrase what I said earlier.
If you are using the hcard microformat, or you want to apply styles to
each constiuent use span. If the previous conditions are not true, then
use br, because it has much semantic value as span and uses less
markup.
span is a generic container for language
Crikey, I use br / all the time. I did not know I was being so naughty.
-Original Message-
From: Hope Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 8:48 AM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way
This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web
Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.
We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street
address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en)
people
- Original Message -
From: Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:47 PM
Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
and for the most part can totally
Peter Firminger wrote:
This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web
Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.
We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street
address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the
the
spec and put out a note letting everyone know.
Cheers,
WSG
What do you think?
R :o)
- Original Message -
From: Buddy Quaid [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Peter Firminger wrote
On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry That was me.
pre does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from ascreen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through preas opposed to br /. Do
On 10/9/05, Buddy Quaid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Peter Firminger wrote:This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (WebStandards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street
address is a fine
wouldn't make sense
R
- Original Message -
From: Christian Montoya
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
On 10/9/05, Richard
Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
OK
so someone pointed out that pre would
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